On October 07 2010 06:02 Perscienter wrote: ntt Terran Region race rank #72 (0.60% of 12,097, 99th percentile)
He belongs to the best percentile of players and Terrans on the NA server in the diamond league. Roughly 8% of the players on NA play in diamond. I know, it has a bad reputation, but if you criticize him for being a bad player, you really have to think about your demands.
I don't think it really matters for this discussion either way. The only reason anyone listens to him is because of what he did in SC1. In SC2 he's nothing, despite being in 99th percentile. Anyway, it's possible to tell differences in skill at elite levels.
If you watched Tennis and all games were played on hard courts, then someone introduced clay courts, and some guy who was top 10 on hard courts for a brief time, who is now top 100 at clay courts, goes off about how the clay courts don't properly emphasize the skills that Tennis ought to emphasize, then everyone would just be like "lol what". It's something like that imo. Some other smart and knowledgeable people have other opinions but it's too early to say either way.
Scbw and Sc2 are not different courts, but different games, although of the same lineage. Due to everyone, including the pros, just focusing on one race (playing different races isn't required by the associations), the fitting equivalent to courts would be the maps. Tennis hasn't been severely overhauled during the last ten years, but you could argue about the modern equipment in sports.
This is totally missing the point of putting NTT in proper perspective. Every analogy has disanalogies but they're relevant only if they affect the point being made.
On October 07 2010 07:44 darmousseh wrote: I think a video would explain how many enthusiastic sc2 fans feel about what NTT said
LOL This is pretty funny.
But in response to the OP, does this NTT guy have any authority whatsoever? He just sounds like some no-name whiner, to be honest, and his arguments aren't even valid.
Sure, automine and MBS make the game easier. But reactors, voidrays, stim (yeah... stimpack wasn't in the original SC or anything...) and blink are perfectly valid things in the game. It's not like we're pretending that the game is perfect or perfectly balanced (it's still a fetus, for cryin' out loud!), but we don't see the pros playing for two seconds and then leaving the game forever because it's "too gimicky". It's different than SC1 because it would be stupid to re-sell the exact same game with the exact same EVERYTHING with only slightly better graphics.
I think he needs to grow up. After he becomes well known enough to be taken seriously.
On October 07 2010 07:25 starcraft911 wrote: NTT hasnt been relevant for 10+ years.
He was imo #1 in the world 00 (gorush was close tho) and that was 10years ago. He was really a top player 01 so I'd say you are wrong. Make it 7-8years and you'd be more correct.
Wow.. so many newschoolers. I feel pretty old that over half this thread has no idea who NTT is.
Anyways, I can completely agree with his entire statement. Everything he said is pretty accurate. But I mean, of course you can't compare two games that are a decade apart. SC2 is what it is and although I'm sure a lot of people are disappointed just like NTT, it doesn't mean it's a bad game. In time, hopefully the game will evolve into something better and not just being played because of the hype.
On October 07 2010 08:38 Eatme wrote: No wonder that I dont post as much here anymore.
Remind me to cry.
I know of NTT a little, and I followed the BW scene slowly at first then in a greater manner. I think you've got to give the deserved respect to the guy, as if boxer or flash said it tomorrow there would be an even bigger shitstorm.
After playing so much starcraft 2, reading his comments did make me think again about BW, and long for some of the simpler, more skill necessary gameplay.
It's obviously just an outburst though as his third post clears most of it up. Still a big decision if he really does quit entirely.
On October 07 2010 08:11 FatHuntresS wrote: Not only maps dude.. its just the way the game was designed. The maps right now is an advantage to the toss and terran. i dont want to whine in this thread, lets just say , why am i losing to people that i would have easily thrashed them in war3? i dont get it. they are thrash. and im losing to them. obviously if the game was going on for more than 15 minutes, with my macro and micro i would have thrash them but then again, i cant even go pass 7 minutes because of some rock paper scissors BO in some small shitty map where you can hide every single building in every fucking corner. lets just see how the game evolves and see how reactive people can get. lets wait till terran start hiding buildings and trick the zerg with dual starport. Lets wait till jaedongs 500 apm and marine will be sliding with machine gun attack. My point is, The game is shitty compared to war3 and bw.
The Mechanics of the game itself, is an advantage to the terran, The Marine move+hit trick like in dota. If you power micro u can have MUCH MUCH more advantage.. right now terran just afk and marine shoot, in the future u'll see more crazy marine style. what can zerglings do then, its a ceiling you can reach. just imagine that everyone having 500 apm, zerg can fast spread creep like crazy, but thats about the only advantage. we're talking bout meta-game here.
Terran just has much more potential to grow in terms of variety and diversity of strategies to pull off, and marines are the greatest asset to mix into them, just because the hit move can be abused perfectly in the near future. lets not go off topic, like i said the mechanics itself is just.. fucked up.
Its frustrating because noobs are beating pros, and they think they are pro. I totally understand NTT frustration. back then in war3 , these noobs were irrelevant because my micro was superior. in sc2.. my micro cannot be utilized much. i dont know why. I transferred my skill to macro but it stills boils down to rock paper scissors which pisses me off.
example would be get beaten by 1 void ray, 1 thor, 1 siege tank, 1 banshee. <-- most frustrating crap ever . .. like oh? GG , wrong bo ! you got me there. its like tic tac toe. u get it, its not based on skill -___-
guys you all keep going on about how the game will evolve and stuffs like that, its different in sc2. there will be a limit of what pros can do unlike sc1..
we cant dodge lurkers in sc2, we cant abuse muta groupings in sc2.. the programming has gotten so advance that things are really too systematic that its not fun no more =/ unless they implement it themselves. like magicbox.
It's posts like these that make me smile about how much certain people hate it when "noobs" (sometimes called people with lives) can play a game and not suck.
The best example i can bring up (again) is chess.
In chess, "noobs" (anyone not a grandmaster) can play the first 20 moves perfectly. And often good players will make 0 mistakes during a game. The difference between a "grandmaster" and a "good player" can be 1-2 different choices. The game is very very subtle. Even Me (rated around 1400 in chess) can play a guy who i am supposed to lose to 95% of the time (rated 2000) and still have an enjoyable and tough game.
Now starcraft 2 isn't as subtle and obviously noobs cant yet handle playing the first 30% of a game perfectly and pros can't yet "play perfectly". Yes, sc2 might require less mechanical skill than scbw or whatever, but with the counter system (which is a huge huge huge change, and really makes it a completely different game), making mistakes about building the wrong unit are significantly more costly. It means more mind games, more cheese, more allin intially, however, once players have the tools to scout properly, know when and how to scout, knowing how to gain the "initiative" (Make a lot of sentries forcing your opponent to go muta, then make a lot of blink stalkers for example), and subtle things like forcing your opponent to build 1 extra turrent, will be the difference in high level games, yet at the same time, with the counter system, you can't blindy rush into a single strategy and hope your opponent reacts how you want (which is why cheese is so strong, because people don't scout correctly...i know i dont).
If you want twitchy, fast hand motion stuff, there are games like ssbm, or scbw or halo3. If you want pure mental games, watch chess. If you want to watch something in between with a little bit of both, watch sc2. That's all i have to say.
I probably sounded like NTT when Starcraft 1 came out. I played Warcraft 2 competitively, and I was not initially happy with Starcraft. The big 'thing' with Starcraft was that 'there are three races', and I thought that was gimmicky. Starcraft 1 felt backwards to me from Warcraft 2 in the following ways:
-No naval combat. While Warcraft 2 may only have had two races, it did have three resources of gold, lumber, and oil. Oil was important for naval warfare and was a dimension to the game that Starcraft lacks (even Warcraft 3 didn't implement it properly). Back then, many 'noobs' hated water maps because they couldn't easily 'cheese' because whoever controlled the water had map control. It was an additional plane of combat that made things more interesting tactically.
-In Warcraft 2, you could set options of how high resources you wanted for the map (something lacking in every Blizzard RTS game since). The only 'real' way to play was on 'low resources'. This forced people to expand, to focus more on keeping their current units alive rather than do mass production and strip mining. I was disappointed it wasn't in Starcraft. I also think Starcraft 2 needs low resource maps because this would put an abrupt end to 'one base play' but also doing crazy macro won't automatically win you the game (because you will run out of resources faster).
-Vespene was a poor replacement for lumber. What was interesting about lumber was that the map would change throughout the game. Your walled off area might suddenly become vulnerable if your peasants cleared a hole in the forest.
-I hated Battle. Net then in the same way SC1 players hate Bnet 2.0.
So why am I saying this? I've come to realize that at a certain age and time in our lives will be the 'golden age' of whatever game we play. Most of the SC 1 crazy fans actually grew up with SC 1. But those who were of age of Warcraft 2 will call that their game. And the young ones today will grow up with SC 2, and they will call that their game. Video games are a young person's hobby after all. (Once you have kids, your game playing skills go out the window for whatever reason.)
Anyone saying Starcraft 2 is a radical change from Starcraft 1 doesn't know what they are saying. A radical change is Warcraft 3 from Warcraft 2 (very different type of gameplay). Starcraft 2 is very much similar to Starcraft despite what some people say. However, the 'big changes' is that the game is in 3d, has better interface and unit pathing, and all the bells and whistles a game released in 2010 would have compared to Starcraft released over a decade ago.
One major difference between Starcraft 1 and Starcraft 2 is that the competitive scene of SC1 did not kick up until much later. When Starcraft 1 was released, there was TONS of competition in the RTS genre. Age of Empires. Command and Conquer. Total Annihilation. Dark Reign. And more and more coming out. Today, the RTS genre has fizzled out and Starcraft 2 has little to no competition in the traditional RTS area.
Unlike SC1, the competitive scene in SC2 is ramping up faster. Since there is no competition in RTS right now, all the people who were playing other RTSes back a decade ago are now playing SC 2. The situation is not that a 'noob' can beat a 'pro player' with a crazy build as they think. The situation is that there is much more competition than ever before. Who cares if a Korean is practicing 12 hours a day? More people than ever in the West are doing so now as well.
Saying the mechanics of SC2 is 'less' than SC1 is ridiculous because it ignores one big change SC2 did from SC1: game speed is much faster. SC 2 is a much faster game than SC 1 which I think throws the 'less mechanics' out the window. Blizzard placed the current game speed as a joke during development, but it became the final game speed setting.
I can't say whether NTT is disappointed in SC 2 the same way how older people, like myself, were disappointed in SC 1, or whether that there is much more competition today than there was in SC 1 (giving people who think they are 'pro' a run for their money). But one thing I am sure about is that it isn't the game he is complaining about. SC 2 is well done and FAR better made than SC 1 at this point in its life history. He is projecting some other frustration onto the game itself. Most SC 1 players will probably begin sounding like NTT as they discover that time is passing them by.
Don't worry guys, there are still people who thinks wc2 is a better than Starcraft. Although his point is valid since his view of Starcraft is based on the original and early stages of Starcraft. It's a pity these people had not experienced what came after 'Starcraft'. It will be sad to see history being repeated again.
On October 07 2010 09:33 Macavity wrote: I probably sounded like NTT when Starcraft 1 came out. I played Warcraft 2 competitively, and I was not initially happy with Starcraft. The big 'thing' with Starcraft was that 'there are three races', and I thought that was gimmicky. Starcraft 1 felt backwards to me from Warcraft 2 in the following ways:
-No naval combat. While Warcraft 2 may only have had two races, it did have three resources of gold, lumber, and oil. Oil was important for naval warfare and was a dimension to the game that Starcraft lacks (even Warcraft 3 didn't implement it properly). Back then, many 'noobs' hated water maps because they couldn't easily 'cheese' because whoever controlled the water had map control. It was an additional plane of combat that made things more interesting tactically.
-In Warcraft 2, you could set options of how high resources you wanted for the map (something lacking in every Blizzard RTS game since). The only 'real' way to play was on 'low resources'. This forced people to expand, to focus more on keeping their current units alive rather than do mass production and strip mining. I was disappointed it wasn't in Starcraft. I also think Starcraft 2 needs low resource maps because this would put an abrupt end to 'one base play' but also doing crazy macro won't automatically win you the game (because you will run out of resources faster).
-Vespene was a poor replacement for lumber. What was interesting about lumber was that the map would change throughout the game. Your walled off area might suddenly become vulnerable if your peasants cleared a hole in the forest.
-I hated Battle. Net then in the same way SC1 players hate Bnet 2.0.
So why am I saying this? I've come to realize that at a certain age and time in our lives will be the 'golden age' of whatever game we play. Most of the SC 1 crazy fans actually grew up with SC 1. But those who were of age of Warcraft 2 will call that their game. And the young ones today will grow up with SC 2, and they will call that their game. Video games are a young person's hobby after all. (Once you have kids, your game playing skills go out the window for whatever reason.)
Anyone saying Starcraft 2 is a radical change from Starcraft 1 doesn't know what they are saying. A radical change is Warcraft 3 from Warcraft 2 (very different type of gameplay). Starcraft 2 is very much similar to Starcraft despite what some people say. However, the 'big changes' is that the game is in 3d, has better interface and unit pathing, and all the bells and whistles a game released in 2010 would have compared to Starcraft released over a decade ago.
One major difference between Starcraft 1 and Starcraft 2 is that the competitive scene of SC1 did not kick up until much later. When Starcraft 1 was released, there was TONS of competition in the RTS genre. Age of Empires. Command and Conquer. Total Annihilation. Dark Reign. And more and more coming out. Today, the RTS genre has fizzled out and Starcraft 2 has little to no competition in the traditional RTS area.
Unlike SC1, the competitive scene in SC2 is ramping up faster. Since there is no competition in RTS right now, all the people who were playing other RTSes back a decade ago are now playing SC 2. The situation is not that a 'noob' can beat a 'pro player' with a crazy build as they think. The situation is that there is much more competition than ever before. Who cares if a Korean is practicing 12 hours a day? More people than ever in the West are doing so now as well.
Saying the mechanics of SC2 is 'less' than SC1 is ridiculous because it ignores one big change SC2 did from SC1: game speed is much faster. SC 2 is a much faster game than SC 1 which I think throws the 'less mechanics' out the window. Blizzard placed the current game speed as a joke during development, but it became the final game speed setting.
I can't say whether NTT is disappointed in SC 2 the same way how older people, like myself, were disappointed in SC 1, or whether that there is much more competition today than there was in SC 1 (giving people who think they are 'pro' a run for their money). But one thing I am sure about is that it isn't the game he is complaining about. SC 2 is well done and FAR better made than SC 1 at this point in its life history. He is projecting some other frustration onto the game itself. Most SC 1 players will probably begin sounding like NTT as they discover that time is passing them by.
You're right. SC1 did simplify and remove many features that were present in WC3. But it also added an equal amount of features, including a revamped racial system that was a world first in RTS history, an increased supply cap, and a complete change in gameplay dynamic, and new ability options like cloak.
SC2 removed MBS, added automine, added smartcasting, and has unlimited selection caps. By the same logic, it should have added an equal amount of gameplay depth to compensate for mechanical simplification.
NTT have more skills that 95% post in here and have more deep knowledge of RTS Games to. He achievement things that you kids only dream at night...He is not so random noob. Was not the best way to leave but well h appends.
Off topic: I love teamliquid and i learn alot in bw skills and sc2 skills (not so much ofc ^_^) and i improve english imo. (But is bad still) But this is becoming like gosugamers comments like 1/2 ago (i dont know now tho).
EPT
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