I don't think it really matters for this discussion either way. The only reason anyone listens to him is because of what he did in SC1. In SC2 he's nothing, despite being in 99th percentile. Anyway, it's possible to tell differences in skill at elite levels.
If you watched Tennis and all games were played on hard courts, then someone introduced clay courts, and some guy who was top 10 on hard courts for a brief time, who is now top 100 at clay courts, goes off about how the clay courts don't properly emphasize the skills that Tennis ought to emphasize, then everyone would just be like "lol what". It's something like that imo. Some other smart and knowledgeable people have other opinions but it's too early to say either way.
Hey Tyler, do you think that the gimmicks in the game (SC2) are too powerful or diverse? Do you feel like you can reliably defeat a weaker opponent, despite anything they throw at you? Thanks.
I feel pretty good about PvT and PvZ. PvP is still a bit tough. Of course I still lose a lot of PvT's and PvZ's but I always feel like I can point out the exact mistakes that caused the loss. So in other words, if I'm playing my best, yeah I can stop all the gimmicks. But that's not the end of it. People get better and I'm sure the way I'm playing right now would lose to most of the all-ins that people will be doing 2 years from now. So it'll go back and forth. But the important thing is that I think that a player who is superior in the right ways can indeed win most of the time.
On October 07 2010 06:02 Perscienter wrote: ntt Terran Region race rank #72 (0.60% of 12,097, 99th percentile)
He belongs to the best percentile of players and Terrans on the NA server in the diamond league. Roughly 8% of the players on NA play in diamond. I know, it has a bad reputation, but if you criticize him for being a bad player, you really have to think about your demands.
I don't think it really matters for this discussion either way. The only reason anyone listens to him is because of what he did in SC1. In SC2 he's nothing, despite being in 99th percentile. Anyway, it's possible to tell differences in skill at elite levels.
If you watched Tennis and all games were played on hard courts, then someone introduced clay courts, and some guy who was top 10 on hard courts for a brief time, who is now top 100 at clay courts, goes off about how the clay courts don't properly emphasize the skills that Tennis ought to emphasize, then everyone would just be like "lol what". It's something like that imo. Some other smart and knowledgeable people have other opinions but it's too early to say either way.
Tyler: A voice of reason in a thread full of people just typing whatever comes into their brain and hitting post. It seems like a lot of experienced SC1 players like Tyler and Day9 are taking the wait and see approach to SC2. True, there are some NTTs, but I think there are far more Tylers and Day9s who prefer to wait for the game to develop before calling out "imbalanced" or "broken" or "not enough skill." Day9's right, Blizzard has a long track record of making sure that their RTS games can sustain competitive play at the highest level.
I agree with you except about Blizzard. I mean really what did Blizzard do to help sustain competitive play? BW was a happy accident in how well it turned out, and i hope they can replicate it. But to have full faith in them and claim thats a long track record, well i'm not so sure about that. They have already shown in numerous ways that they are either ignorant of competitive gamers desires or they simply are ignoring and would rather focus on issues pertaining to the casual players.
On October 07 2010 06:02 Perscienter wrote: ntt Terran Region race rank #72 (0.60% of 12,097, 99th percentile)
He belongs to the best percentile of players and Terrans on the NA server in the diamond league. Roughly 8% of the players on NA play in diamond. I know, it has a bad reputation, but if you criticize him for being a bad player, you really have to think about your demands.
I don't think it really matters for this discussion either way. The only reason anyone listens to him is because of what he did in SC1. In SC2 he's nothing, despite being in 99th percentile. Anyway, it's possible to tell differences in skill at elite levels.
If you watched Tennis and all games were played on hard courts, then someone introduced clay courts, and some guy who was top 10 on hard courts for a brief time, who is now top 100 at clay courts, goes off about how the clay courts don't properly emphasize the skills that Tennis ought to emphasize, then everyone would just be like "lol what". It's something like that imo. Some other smart and knowledgeable people have other opinions but it's too early to say either way.
Tyler: A voice of reason in a thread full of people just typing whatever comes into their brain and hitting post. It seems like a lot of experienced SC1 players like Tyler and Day9 are taking the wait and see approach to SC2. True, there are some NTTs, but I think there are far more Tylers and Day9s who prefer to wait for the game to develop before calling out "imbalanced" or "broken" or "not enough skill." Day9's right, Blizzard has a long track record of making sure that their RTS games can sustain competitive play at the highest level.
I agree with you except about Blizzard. I mean really what did Blizzard do to help sustain competitive play? BW was a happy accident in how well it turned out, and i hope they can replicate it. But to have full faith in them and claim thats a long track record, well i'm not so sure about that. They have already shown in numerous ways that they are either ignorant of competitive gamers desires or they simply are ignoring and would rather focus on issues pertaining to the casual players.
Day9 always cites the huge differences in competitive play between Starcraft 1 and Brood War as well as between Reign of Chaos and Frozen Throne. Did they still have patches after the expansions? Yes, but the expansions changed the way the games worked enough to sustain a healthy esports scene. Blizzard still has two expansions to hammer out the problems in competitive play for SC2.
On October 07 2010 06:02 Perscienter wrote: ntt Terran Region race rank #72 (0.60% of 12,097, 99th percentile)
He belongs to the best percentile of players and Terrans on the NA server in the diamond league. Roughly 8% of the players on NA play in diamond. I know, it has a bad reputation, but if you criticize him for being a bad player, you really have to think about your demands.
I don't think it really matters for this discussion either way. The only reason anyone listens to him is because of what he did in SC1. In SC2 he's nothing, despite being in 99th percentile. Anyway, it's possible to tell differences in skill at elite levels.
If you watched Tennis and all games were played on hard courts, then someone introduced clay courts, and some guy who was top 10 on hard courts for a brief time, who is now top 100 at clay courts, goes off about how the clay courts don't properly emphasize the skills that Tennis ought to emphasize, then everyone would just be like "lol what". It's something like that imo. Some other smart and knowledgeable people have other opinions but it's too early to say either way.
Tyler: A voice of reason in a thread full of people just typing whatever comes into their brain and hitting post. It seems like a lot of experienced SC1 players like Tyler and Day9 are taking the wait and see approach to SC2. True, there are some NTTs, but I think there are far more Tylers and Day9s who prefer to wait for the game to develop before calling out "imbalanced" or "broken" or "not enough skill." Day9's right, Blizzard has a long track record of making sure that their RTS games can sustain competitive play at the highest level.
I agree with you except about Blizzard. I mean really what did Blizzard do to help sustain competitive play? BW was a happy accident in how well it turned out, and i hope they can replicate it. But to have full faith in them and claim thats a long track record, well i'm not so sure about that. They have already shown in numerous ways that they are either ignorant of competitive gamers desires or they simply are ignoring and would rather focus on issues pertaining to the casual players.
Day9 always cites the huge differences in competitive play between Starcraft 1 and Brood War as well as between Reign of Chaos and Frozen Throne. Did they still have patches after the expansions? Yes, but the expansions changed the way the games worked enough to sustain a healthy esports scene. Blizzard still has two expansions to hammer out the problems in competitive play for SC2.
Not just gameplay wise though, i mean for Bnet 2 as well. Although i think it is pretty irresponsible to put out a balance patch in the middle of a $100k+ tournament that THEY probably put a lot of money towards.
On October 07 2010 06:55 infinity2k9 wrote: Not just gameplay wise though, i mean for Bnet 2 as well. Although i think it is pretty irresponsible to put out a balance patch in the middle of a $100k+ tournament that THEY probably put a lot of money towards.
I'm pretty sure the $180M+ shelled out by people who bought the game trumps the potential $87K of 16 Korean dudes.
On October 07 2010 06:02 Perscienter wrote: ntt Terran Region race rank #72 (0.60% of 12,097, 99th percentile)
He belongs to the best percentile of players and Terrans on the NA server in the diamond league. Roughly 8% of the players on NA play in diamond. I know, it has a bad reputation, but if you criticize him for being a bad player, you really have to think about your demands.
I don't think it really matters for this discussion either way. The only reason anyone listens to him is because of what he did in SC1. In SC2 he's nothing, despite being in 99th percentile. Anyway, it's possible to tell differences in skill at elite levels.
If you watched Tennis and all games were played on hard courts, then someone introduced clay courts, and some guy who was top 10 on hard courts for a brief time, who is now top 100 at clay courts, goes off about how the clay courts don't properly emphasize the skills that Tennis ought to emphasize, then everyone would just be like "lol what". It's something like that imo. Some other smart and knowledgeable people have other opinions but it's too early to say either way.
Tyler: A voice of reason in a thread full of people just typing whatever comes into their brain and hitting post. It seems like a lot of experienced SC1 players like Tyler and Day9 are taking the wait and see approach to SC2. True, there are some NTTs, but I think there are far more Tylers and Day9s who prefer to wait for the game to develop before calling out "imbalanced" or "broken" or "not enough skill." Day9's right, Blizzard has a long track record of making sure that their RTS games can sustain competitive play at the highest level.
I agree with you except about Blizzard. I mean really what did Blizzard do to help sustain competitive play? BW was a happy accident in how well it turned out, and i hope they can replicate it. But to have full faith in them and claim thats a long track record, well i'm not so sure about that. They have already shown in numerous ways that they are either ignorant of competitive gamers desires or they simply are ignoring and would rather focus on issues pertaining to the casual players.
Day9 always cites the huge differences in competitive play between Starcraft 1 and Brood War as well as between Reign of Chaos and Frozen Throne. Did they still have patches after the expansions? Yes, but the expansions changed the way the games worked enough to sustain a healthy esports scene. Blizzard still has two expansions to hammer out the problems in competitive play for SC2.
Not just gameplay wise though, i mean for Bnet 2 as well. Although i think it is pretty irresponsible to put out a balance patch in the middle of a $100k+ tournament that THEY probably put a lot of money towards.
So would you rather have a player win and then right after the tournament a balance patch comes that was needed and would have changed the outcome of the tourney? It can be argued both ways. Neither side is 100% right in my opinion.
On October 07 2010 06:02 Perscienter wrote: ntt Terran Region race rank #72 (0.60% of 12,097, 99th percentile)
He belongs to the best percentile of players and Terrans on the NA server in the diamond league. Roughly 8% of the players on NA play in diamond. I know, it has a bad reputation, but if you criticize him for being a bad player, you really have to think about your demands.
I don't think it really matters for this discussion either way. The only reason anyone listens to him is because of what he did in SC1. In SC2 he's nothing, despite being in 99th percentile. Anyway, it's possible to tell differences in skill at elite levels.
If you watched Tennis and all games were played on hard courts, then someone introduced clay courts, and some guy who was top 10 on hard courts for a brief time, who is now top 100 at clay courts, goes off about how the clay courts don't properly emphasize the skills that Tennis ought to emphasize, then everyone would just be like "lol what". It's something like that imo. Some other smart and knowledgeable people have other opinions but it's too early to say either way.
On October 07 2010 06:55 infinity2k9 wrote: Not just gameplay wise though, i mean for Bnet 2 as well. Although i think it is pretty irresponsible to put out a balance patch in the middle of a $100k+ tournament that THEY probably put a lot of money towards.
I'm pretty sure the $180M+ shelled out by people who bought the game trumps the potential $87K of 16 Korean dudes.
Esports is a qualitative benefit, not a quantitative one and they both bring huge benefits. However, its not possible to cater fully to both. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. If you think about it, starcraft in korea is a major factor for SC2's status as an esport and its commercial sales. You can't look at it in terms of numbers.
didnt read all the replies but what NTT said was spot on and true.
when i was playing war3 its all about micro and skills. in sc2 , its not.. its cheese, you cant scout fast enough because maps are too small and its too imbalance, so its just like rock paper scissor ( random bo.. like lucky draw) and A ground to win seriously..
in war3 and sc people that are defenitely more noob than you wont be able to beat you but in sc2? High chance, huge chance. especially if your a zerg. protoss is better cause theyre a more solid race while zerg will need to have precise timing which mostly fails thanks to failmap , fail mechanics.
On October 07 2010 07:25 starcraft911 wrote: NTT hasnt been relevant for 10+ years.
This.
Yet it appears that anyone notorious, be it now or in the past, rehashing the same comments concerning the current state of SC2 that have been spewed since the early days of beta are still considered noteworthy enough to generate 30 page threads. Every.damn.time.
There should be a new section on these boards called the Whine Cellar so anybody can rage to their hearts content, there, and nowhere else.
On October 07 2010 07:57 FatHuntresS wrote: didnt read all the replies but what NTT said was spot on and true.
when i was playing war3 its all about micro and skills. in sc2 , its not.. its cheese, you cant scout fast enough because maps are too small and its too imbalance, so its just like rock paper scissor ( random bo.. like lucky draw) and A ground to win seriously..
in war3 and sc people that are defenitely more noob than you wont be able to beat you but in sc2? High chance, huge chance. especially if your a zerg. protoss is better cause theyre a more solid race while zerg will need to have precise timing which mostly fails thanks to failmap , fail mechanics.
and yea, noobs wont understand..
Sounds like you're bringing up an issue with maps, which just about everyone agrees with.
Huh.. well good luck with whatever else he plans to do. I mean if you can't have fun with Starcraft 2 and you don't like it I guess no one is forcing you to play it. I like the game, the games are getting more and more awesome as time goes on and I' for one can't wait for things like the 2nd gsl to get started.
While not every GSL game was amazing epic many of them where quite entertaining and I feel the results speak to the nature that for all the complaints the game is still very much changing and adapting and will continue to do so. I look to the players in that tournament to show us just how little we've actually figured out.
On October 07 2010 06:02 Perscienter wrote: ntt Terran Region race rank #72 (0.60% of 12,097, 99th percentile)
He belongs to the best percentile of players and Terrans on the NA server in the diamond league. Roughly 8% of the players on NA play in diamond. I know, it has a bad reputation, but if you criticize him for being a bad player, you really have to think about your demands.
I don't think it really matters for this discussion either way. The only reason anyone listens to him is because of what he did in SC1. In SC2 he's nothing, despite being in 99th percentile. Anyway, it's possible to tell differences in skill at elite levels.
If you watched Tennis and all games were played on hard courts, then someone introduced clay courts, and some guy who was top 10 on hard courts for a brief time, who is now top 100 at clay courts, goes off about how the clay courts don't properly emphasize the skills that Tennis ought to emphasize, then everyone would just be like "lol what". It's something like that imo. Some other smart and knowledgeable people have other opinions but it's too early to say either way.
Scbw and Sc2 are not different courts, but different games, although of the same lineage. Due to everyone, including the pros, just focusing on one race (playing different races isn't required by the associations), the fitting equivalent to courts would be the maps. Tennis hasn't been severely overhauled during the last ten years, but you could argue about the modern equipment in sports.
Not only maps dude.. its just the way the game was designed. The maps right now is an advantage to the toss and terran. i dont want to whine in this thread, lets just say , why am i losing to people that i would have easily thrashed them in war3? i dont get it. they are thrash. and im losing to them. obviously if the game was going on for more than 15 minutes, with my macro and micro i would have thrash them but then again, i cant even go pass 7 minutes because of some rock paper scissors BO in some small shitty map where you can hide every single building in every fucking corner. lets just see how the game evolves and see how reactive people can get. lets wait till terran start hiding buildings and trick the zerg with dual starport. Lets wait till jaedongs 500 apm and marine will be sliding with machine gun attack. My point is, The game is shitty compared to war3 and bw.
The Mechanics of the game itself, is an advantage to the terran, The Marine move+hit trick like in dota. If you power micro u can have MUCH MUCH more advantage.. right now terran just afk and marine shoot, in the future u'll see more crazy marine style. what can zerglings do then, its a ceiling you can reach. just imagine that everyone having 500 apm, zerg can fast spread creep like crazy, but thats about the only advantage. we're talking bout meta-game here.
Terran just has much more potential to grow in terms of variety and diversity of strategies to pull off, and marines are the greatest asset to mix into them, just because the hit move can be abused perfectly in the near future. lets not go off topic, like i said the mechanics itself is just.. fucked up.
Its frustrating because noobs are beating pros, and they think they are pro. I totally understand NTT frustration. back then in war3 , these noobs were irrelevant because my micro was superior. in sc2.. my micro cannot be utilized much. i dont know why. I transferred my skill to macro but it stills boils down to rock paper scissors which pisses me off.
example would be get beaten by 1 void ray, 1 thor, 1 siege tank, 1 banshee. <-- most frustrating crap ever . .. like oh? GG , wrong bo ! you got me there. its like tic tac toe. u get it, its not based on skill -___-
guys you all keep going on about how the game will evolve and stuffs like that, its different in sc2. there will be a limit of what pros can do unlike sc1..
we cant dodge lurkers in sc2, we cant abuse muta groupings in sc2.. the programming has gotten so advance that things are really too systematic that its not fun no more =/ unless they implement it themselves. like magicbox.
NTT is just making himself sound like a giant baby saying this. IMO i think someone just needs to give him a tissue to wipe his tears away because SC2 is evolving beyond old players like NTT
it just seems to me that since all these newb friendly features have been added, the variance has been greatly increased, I don't think SC2 will ever be as awesome as broodwar was but it's still a decent game
EPT
especially if your a zerg. protoss is better cause theyre a more solid race while zerg will need to have precise timing which mostly fails thanks to failmap , fail mechanics.
