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On September 30 2010 00:56 Pyrthas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 00:20 DarkShell wrote:
I have a really big bias against lame play, though. I'm a firm believer that if you have to do something completely lame to win, you don't deserve the win. Three things. 1) Nobody said you 6 pool only when you have to do so to win. Cheese can also be a strong mindgame, or a way to punish predictable greedy openings. It can be a great way to open series, as in the July vs. Best OSL final. Maybe there are lots of ways you can win. But why should you limit your selection? You choose from every option you have, even if DarkShell doesn't enjoy watching some of them as much. 2) To reiterate: This is about winning, not about abiding by some unwritten rules of honorable builds. Whining about cheese is like playing nr20 games, or whining about throws in a fighting game. Get over it. If I can beat you by doing nothing but throws, either the game is bad, or you need to learn how to respond. You might not enjoy watching matches that are pure throws, or pure turtling, or whatever. But that only has anything to do with respect if the goal is fun matches, and it's not. It's winning. 3) If the game is balanced, the better player should be able to beat predictable cheese most of the time. Sometimes it's just bad luck, and there's nothing you can do about that except realize that it happens to everybody (with every build) and move on. But if you systematically can't respond, then either the game is bad, or you need a new strategy. The better a build gets, the more lame it gets, because the whole point of a good build is to give you an advantage at a minimal cost. The better you get at that trade--the better the payoff and the lower the cost--the more lame it's gonna look. If you don't like it, go play something noncompetitive, where people aren't trying to give themselves every advantage they can. Or wait two years until sc2 is balanced, then come back and see that most of the super lame stuff has gotten riskier. Then its use will be less automatic and more strategic.
In response to your 3 things, I have 1 thing. This is my opinion. This isn't something I believe the whole SC2 community should base their thoughts on. I, myself, dislike people who play like that. Even if it's for a good reason. I can, honestly, say if I was in MorroW's position I would've rather taken 2nd place and played a good game rather than sit on 5 rax reapers the entire game and exploit how Blizzard built my race against zerg.
Me, myself, not everyone else. That's how I feel. My views on a player are based on HOW they play, not if they win. Your arguing that because I feel that way they shouldn't do it is ridiculous. If they want to be that way, it's their choice, and it's my choice to dislike them for it.
End of my discussion.
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Morrow is still going to play Terran in tournaments. It's money mannn
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Why are you guys even responding to DarkShell? He clearly made his account just to Troll/Flame/Force his opinion into this topic. There is no reason to pay any attention to someone so close minded.
Anyways MorroW, I really hope you can find some Zerg hope. I switched from T to Z because of the original TvT match-up [and having to play it every game] and would love to see if you could find SOMETHING Zerg can do with the early game. Its really discouraging watching zerg after zerg lose tourny games while Blizzard ignores it and works on 2v2.
I feel if we could just make it out of the early stage of the game, TvZ would be a great matchup. On the other hand, Protoss lategame is so scary right now I don't see anything that can be done right now after a point.
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On September 30 2010 01:05 DarkShell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 00:56 Pyrthas wrote:On September 30 2010 00:20 DarkShell wrote:
I have a really big bias against lame play, though. I'm a firm believer that if you have to do something completely lame to win, you don't deserve the win. Three things. 1) Nobody said you 6 pool only when you have to do so to win. Cheese can also be a strong mindgame, or a way to punish predictable greedy openings. It can be a great way to open series, as in the July vs. Best OSL final. Maybe there are lots of ways you can win. But why should you limit your selection? You choose from every option you have, even if DarkShell doesn't enjoy watching some of them as much. 2) To reiterate: This is about winning, not about abiding by some unwritten rules of honorable builds. Whining about cheese is like playing nr20 games, or whining about throws in a fighting game. Get over it. If I can beat you by doing nothing but throws, either the game is bad, or you need to learn how to respond. You might not enjoy watching matches that are pure throws, or pure turtling, or whatever. But that only has anything to do with respect if the goal is fun matches, and it's not. It's winning. 3) If the game is balanced, the better player should be able to beat predictable cheese most of the time. Sometimes it's just bad luck, and there's nothing you can do about that except realize that it happens to everybody (with every build) and move on. But if you systematically can't respond, then either the game is bad, or you need a new strategy. The better a build gets, the more lame it gets, because the whole point of a good build is to give you an advantage at a minimal cost. The better you get at that trade--the better the payoff and the lower the cost--the more lame it's gonna look. If you don't like it, go play something noncompetitive, where people aren't trying to give themselves every advantage they can. Or wait two years until sc2 is balanced, then come back and see that most of the super lame stuff has gotten riskier. Then its use will be less automatic and more strategic. In response to your 3 things, I have 1 thing. This is my opinion. This isn't something I believe the whole SC2 community should base their thoughts on. I, myself, dislike people who play like that. Even if it's for a good reason. I can, honestly, say if I was in MorroW's position I would've rather taken 2nd place and played a good game rather than sit on 5 rax reapers the entire game and exploit how Blizzard built my race against zerg. Me, myself, not everyone else. That's how I feel. My views on a player are based on HOW they play, not if they win. Your arguing that because I feel that way they shouldn't do it is ridiculous. If they want to be that way, it's their choice, and it's my choice to dislike them for it. End of my discussion.
I seriously doubt that u will make the same decision when there are 3.000$ (i guess it was 5k for #1 and 2k for #2; not sure though) on the line
I mean i totally agree that it sucks to see this in a final game but $$$>all and i would do the same thing...
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On September 30 2010 00:51 kataa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 00:31 DarkShell wrote:
I can somewhat understand cheesing one game out of a series to get ahead when you're down. Ok, you needed that game to stay alive. But going 5 rax reapers every single match in a series vs zerg is not worth the effort to look at the screen to watch.
I'm just one person and it's just my opinion, but it is what it is. I completely agree, 5 rax Reaper every game is insane. The whole point of my post, was that it's a logical conclusion of the design of the game, not the character of it's players. 5 rax reaper didn't become popular because all Terrans are horrible people who just want to win whatever the cost, and zergs are all saints who only care only about entertaining spectators. Competitive players play to win, and they'll use the best tools to achieve that. If you hate seeing 5 Rax reaper every game, blame Blizzard for faulity game design not MorroW or LzGamer.
5Rax reaper before the patch was a super strong build that was actually a fast expansion, not an all-in. I still don't understand why people say it's an allin? It was an extremely safe and fast expansion with 100% scouting information and no counters, with an extremely high chance of winning outright and even if you got defended perfectly you still wouldn't get behind. Why wouldn't you do it if you could pull it off?
Cheering for you MorroW, you're my favorite SC2 player and I have really liked your attitude and the way you win. It's always so sincere and you do what you need to do.
EDIT: I assume people think it's an allin because Day9 said so in his cast, but Day9 isn't a SC2 god and he was wrong there, it's not allin at all. I was so annoyed at the commentating like "desperate to end it early" and "allin style of play" when it's nothing like that.
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When your playing for money, you do what works best. I would believe that they aren't so concerned about the fairness of their play, more about the 5 grand they can grab if they beat this guy.
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Man I was pretty neutral regarding idra/morrow but after reading idras' nonstop QQ in this thread while morrow just kept answering with civil answers I gotta say I've lost a lot of respect towards idra. How can someone of his age cry so much on a forum.
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Yeah, I'm closed minded. So closed minded that I like seing more than massing one harass unit. So closed minded that after seeing this build done over and over in a series I switched the race it was used against because it required more than building multiple rax and making 1 type of unit to win the game early.
Yes, I'm very closed minded.
You should also probably learn to read. I tried to force my opinion into the topic by stating that it was mine and mine alone and that I'm not putting it here hoping other people will hop on with it. Flame? Hardly. Troll? Not even close.
Your logic is so amazing I feel I should give you a cookie.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 30 2010 01:21 DarkShell wrote:
Yeah, I'm closed minded. So closed minded that I like seing more than massing one harass unit. So closed minded that after seeing this build done over and over in a series I switched the race it was used against because it required more than building multiple rax and making 1 type of unit to win the game early.
Yes, I'm very closed minded.
You should also probably learn to read. I tried to force my opinion into the topic by stating that it was mine and mine alone and that I'm not putting it here hoping other people will hop on with it. Flame? Hardly. Troll? Not even close.
Your logic is so amazing I feel I should give you a cookie.
It was a fast expansion. Not an allin.
Wonder when people will learn.
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maybe he is playing a different race for fun. you ppl are looking way too much into it.
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On September 30 2010 01:05 DarkShell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 00:56 Pyrthas wrote:On September 30 2010 00:20 DarkShell wrote:
I have a really big bias against lame play, though. I'm a firm believer that if you have to do something completely lame to win, you don't deserve the win. Three things. 1) Nobody said you 6 pool only when you have to do so to win. Cheese can also be a strong mindgame, or a way to punish predictable greedy openings. It can be a great way to open series, as in the July vs. Best OSL final. Maybe there are lots of ways you can win. But why should you limit your selection? You choose from every option you have, even if DarkShell doesn't enjoy watching some of them as much. 2) To reiterate: This is about winning, not about abiding by some unwritten rules of honorable builds. Whining about cheese is like playing nr20 games, or whining about throws in a fighting game. Get over it. If I can beat you by doing nothing but throws, either the game is bad, or you need to learn how to respond. You might not enjoy watching matches that are pure throws, or pure turtling, or whatever. But that only has anything to do with respect if the goal is fun matches, and it's not. It's winning. 3) If the game is balanced, the better player should be able to beat predictable cheese most of the time. Sometimes it's just bad luck, and there's nothing you can do about that except realize that it happens to everybody (with every build) and move on. But if you systematically can't respond, then either the game is bad, or you need a new strategy. The better a build gets, the more lame it gets, because the whole point of a good build is to give you an advantage at a minimal cost. The better you get at that trade--the better the payoff and the lower the cost--the more lame it's gonna look. If you don't like it, go play something noncompetitive, where people aren't trying to give themselves every advantage they can. Or wait two years until sc2 is balanced, then come back and see that most of the super lame stuff has gotten riskier. Then its use will be less automatic and more strategic. In response to your 3 things, I have 1 thing. This is my opinion. This isn't something I believe the whole SC2 community should base their thoughts on. I, myself, dislike people who play like that. Even if it's for a good reason. I can, honestly, say if I was in MorroW's position I would've rather taken 2nd place and played a good game rather than sit on 5 rax reapers the entire game and exploit how Blizzard built my race against zerg. Me, myself, not everyone else. That's how I feel. My views on a player are based on HOW they play, not if they win. Your arguing that because I feel that way they shouldn't do it is ridiculous. If they want to be that way, it's their choice, and it's my choice to dislike them for it. End of my discussion.
Even the opponent you did not cheese and lose 1st place to, would respect you way less if he knew that.
People play in tournaments seriously, and if you go there and not give it 100%, it'll just be offensive to your opponents and everyone watching. You will not be taking the tournament seriously.
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On September 30 2010 01:05 DarkShell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 00:56 Pyrthas wrote:On September 30 2010 00:20 DarkShell wrote:
I have a really big bias against lame play, though. I'm a firm believer that if you have to do something completely lame to win, you don't deserve the win. Three things. 1) Nobody said you 6 pool only when you have to do so to win. Cheese can also be a strong mindgame, or a way to punish predictable greedy openings. It can be a great way to open series, as in the July vs. Best OSL final. Maybe there are lots of ways you can win. But why should you limit your selection? You choose from every option you have, even if DarkShell doesn't enjoy watching some of them as much. 2) To reiterate: This is about winning, not about abiding by some unwritten rules of honorable builds. Whining about cheese is like playing nr20 games, or whining about throws in a fighting game. Get over it. If I can beat you by doing nothing but throws, either the game is bad, or you need to learn how to respond. You might not enjoy watching matches that are pure throws, or pure turtling, or whatever. But that only has anything to do with respect if the goal is fun matches, and it's not. It's winning. 3) If the game is balanced, the better player should be able to beat predictable cheese most of the time. Sometimes it's just bad luck, and there's nothing you can do about that except realize that it happens to everybody (with every build) and move on. But if you systematically can't respond, then either the game is bad, or you need a new strategy. The better a build gets, the more lame it gets, because the whole point of a good build is to give you an advantage at a minimal cost. The better you get at that trade--the better the payoff and the lower the cost--the more lame it's gonna look. If you don't like it, go play something noncompetitive, where people aren't trying to give themselves every advantage they can. Or wait two years until sc2 is balanced, then come back and see that most of the super lame stuff has gotten riskier. Then its use will be less automatic and more strategic. In response to your 3 things, I have 1 thing. This is my opinion. This isn't something I believe the whole SC2 community should base their thoughts on. I, myself, dislike people who play like that. Even if it's for a good reason. I can, honestly, say if I was in MorroW's position I would've rather taken 2nd place and played a good game rather than sit on 5 rax reapers the entire game and exploit how Blizzard built my race against zerg. Me, myself, not everyone else. That's how I feel. My views on a player are based on HOW they play, not if they win. Your arguing that because I feel that way they shouldn't do it is ridiculous. If they want to be that way, it's their choice, and it's my choice to dislike them for it. End of my discussion.
Of course you are entitled to your opinion. Everybody is. But that doesn't mean opinions are never open to criticism. We can ask for reasons to back opinions up, because through the ensuing discussion we can develop a better understanding of the issues. In this case, I responded because I don't think there's a good reason for disliking or losing respect for people (real people!) because they compete in a way that you don't like. To me, that sounds like disliking people for playing styles of music that I don't like, or painting in styles I don't like, or playing tennis in ways I don't like. (It's only serve and volley for me. I have no respect for baseliners! And I dislike you, not just as a painter, but as a person, unless your work is representational.)
I might be wrong, of course. There might be an important distinction here that I'm missing. That's the point of discussion! But I guess this one's over.
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On September 30 2010 01:21 DarkShell wrote:
Yeah, I'm closed minded. So closed minded that I like seing more than massing one harass unit. So closed minded that after seeing this build done over and over in a series I switched the race it was used against because it required more than building multiple rax and making 1 type of unit to win the game early.
Yes, I'm very closed minded.
You should also probably learn to read. I tried to force my opinion into the topic by stating that it was mine and mine alone and that I'm not putting it here hoping other people will hop on with it. Flame? Hardly. Troll? Not even close.
Your logic is so amazing I feel I should give you a cookie.
You are aware that 5 Hatch Hydra was one of the most popular ZvP builds in Brood War, right? That was generally 99% Hydra.
You should probably spend less time posting and more time looking at how discussions turn out on this forum. If you're going to get all pissy because someone argues with you it may be a good idea to just request a perma-ban to avoid future warnings/bans by the mods. I'm sure they would appreciate it if you learned the rules before posting as well.
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On September 30 2010 01:25 Garaman wrote:
maybe he is playing a different race for fun. you ppl are looking way too much into it.
Maybe you should read the thread.
BTW DarkShell, if you don't want people to discuss your opinion, don't post it. Keep it to yourself. You can't just post a ridiculous opinion and then gain diplomatic immunity with something like "It's just my opinion!". If you don't want people to discuss it, don't tell them about it.
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I'm now a morrow fan 
The replay pack is pretty motivating. It's good to see that pro players also struggle in the beginning.
It's also cool to see that Morrow is copying Idra's hotkey setup (dunno if it's intentional or not). Maybe I'll go back to that setup as well :=]
Pls keep releasing replay packs when you're better!
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On September 30 2010 01:24 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 01:21 DarkShell wrote:
Yeah, I'm closed minded. So closed minded that I like seing more than massing one harass unit. So closed minded that after seeing this build done over and over in a series I switched the race it was used against because it required more than building multiple rax and making 1 type of unit to win the game early.
Yes, I'm very closed minded.
You should also probably learn to read. I tried to force my opinion into the topic by stating that it was mine and mine alone and that I'm not putting it here hoping other people will hop on with it. Flame? Hardly. Troll? Not even close.
Your logic is so amazing I feel I should give you a cookie. It was a fast expansion. Not an allin. Wonder when people will learn.
Where the hell are you in this discussion? When did anyone say it was an all in? If it was an all in, it wouldn't be so bad because you could lose with it if you didn't do well. The biggest reason it was unbalanced is it harasses a lot more than zerg could ever do and at the same time sets you up for an expand and transition while completely crippling the zerg.
When will you learn that you need to learn to read to browse a forum?
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GL Morrow hope you show how damn good you actually are by getting top notch with zerg too =D
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On September 30 2010 01:27 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 01:21 DarkShell wrote:
Yeah, I'm closed minded. So closed minded that I like seing more than massing one harass unit. So closed minded that after seeing this build done over and over in a series I switched the race it was used against because it required more than building multiple rax and making 1 type of unit to win the game early.
Yes, I'm very closed minded.
You should also probably learn to read. I tried to force my opinion into the topic by stating that it was mine and mine alone and that I'm not putting it here hoping other people will hop on with it. Flame? Hardly. Troll? Not even close.
Your logic is so amazing I feel I should give you a cookie. You are aware that 5 Hatch Hydra was one of the most popular ZvP builds in Brood War, right? That was generally 99% Hydra. You should probably spend less time posting and more time looking at how discussions turn out on this forum. If you're going to get all pissy because someone argues with you it may be a good idea to just request a perma-ban to avoid future warnings/bans by the mods. I'm sure they would appreciate it if you learned the rules before posting as well.
You are aware that 5 hatch hydra is in no way relative to 5 rax reaper? Reapers come out extremely quick. The one unit composition isn't the point.
Also, who said I'm pissy? So many people who need to learn to read before they respond.
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I like you, MorroW ^^ keep going, you've got great attitude and it's going to bring you far in progaming and life. don't get shaken up by people posting shit : ) glhf
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On September 30 2010 01:05 DarkShell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 00:56 Pyrthas wrote:On September 30 2010 00:20 DarkShell wrote:
I have a really big bias against lame play, though. I'm a firm believer that if you have to do something completely lame to win, you don't deserve the win. Three things. 1) Nobody said you 6 pool only when you have to do so to win. Cheese can also be a strong mindgame, or a way to punish predictable greedy openings. It can be a great way to open series, as in the July vs. Best OSL final. Maybe there are lots of ways you can win. But why should you limit your selection? You choose from every option you have, even if DarkShell doesn't enjoy watching some of them as much. 2) To reiterate: This is about winning, not about abiding by some unwritten rules of honorable builds. Whining about cheese is like playing nr20 games, or whining about throws in a fighting game. Get over it. If I can beat you by doing nothing but throws, either the game is bad, or you need to learn how to respond. You might not enjoy watching matches that are pure throws, or pure turtling, or whatever. But that only has anything to do with respect if the goal is fun matches, and it's not. It's winning. 3) If the game is balanced, the better player should be able to beat predictable cheese most of the time. Sometimes it's just bad luck, and there's nothing you can do about that except realize that it happens to everybody (with every build) and move on. But if you systematically can't respond, then either the game is bad, or you need a new strategy. The better a build gets, the more lame it gets, because the whole point of a good build is to give you an advantage at a minimal cost. The better you get at that trade--the better the payoff and the lower the cost--the more lame it's gonna look. If you don't like it, go play something noncompetitive, where people aren't trying to give themselves every advantage they can. Or wait two years until sc2 is balanced, then come back and see that most of the super lame stuff has gotten riskier. Then its use will be less automatic and more strategic. In response to your 3 things, I have 1 thing. This is my opinion. This isn't something I believe the whole SC2 community should base their thoughts on. I, myself, dislike people who play like that. Even if it's for a good reason. I can, honestly, say if I was in MorroW's position I would've rather taken 2nd place and played a good game rather than sit on 5 rax reapers the entire game and exploit how Blizzard built my race against zerg. Me, myself, not everyone else. That's how I feel. My views on a player are based on HOW they play, not if they win. Your arguing that because I feel that way they shouldn't do it is ridiculous. If they want to be that way, it's their choice, and it's my choice to dislike them for it. End of my discussion.
I just want to say that I totally agree with you and appreciate this point of view. It's nice to see that there's someone else out there that wants to win no matter the cost.
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EPT
