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On September 24 2010 16:24 SB.Legendary wrote:
It's funny how now, that cool said zerg is broken everybody goes "oh yeah zerg is indeed broken...fix it, blizz". Not long ago many people were chuckling at IdrA for complaining about zerg.
Anyways it's really sad that July will maybe play terran and all those great players may switch races.
I think this could snowball out of control, since many lower players try to execute the BOs they see in tournaments. What are you supposed to do against tip-top level timing pushes (altough poorly executed) when there's noone to teach you how to counter it?
Blizzard should really concern all these balance issues really really fast, since they've already let so much time pass instead of using soon(tm) to try to calm players down.
even worse, I think when top-zergs quit then low(er) level players will even feel more frustrated when playing zerg and losing against stuff
this may result in more and more zergs feeling "encouraged" to switch, which may lead to a general underdevelopment of the zerg race; I mean, I can just talk for protoss, but there are many great strats evolving that come from non-pros; eg. I have played the FE of kcdc for a while and steadily adapted it to my playstyle, recently I saw nexgenius use a build that was nearly exactly the same on a game on scrap station;
now a race doesn't only need players like nexgenius but also people like kcdc who are convinced that their race is good enough to develop useful strategies on their own; if people get of the opinion that zerg generally sucks they will probably just copy the remaining pro-builds and don't even bother being creative; although I think from the games of catz we can see that zerg isn't nearly as developed as it could be; don't wanna say that zerg isn't weak, but merely the general "opinion" of zerg being weak already hampers the development of more creative playstyles and new strategies
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These are very demoralizing times to be a Zerg 
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What are Zerg complaining about, ZvT or ZvP or both? I'd be curious to know. My bet is that it's not on the ZvP matchup
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On September 24 2010 16:52 abrasion wrote:
What are Zerg complaining about, ZvT or ZvP or both? I'd be curious to know. My bet is that it's not on the ZvP matchup
Both, a lot of Koreans apparently think that ZvP is even more imbalanced than ZvT.
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United Kingdom12064 Posts
On September 24 2010 16:52 abrasion wrote:
What are Zerg complaining about, ZvT or ZvP or both? I'd be curious to know. My bet is that it's not on the ZvP matchup
I'm not too sure to be honest, I mean from the GSL it looks like ZvP is actually really hard at high level, especially if all they do is mass blink stalkers :S
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i see a lot of 2-base P just rip apart 3-base Zs with stalkerball or colossus + forcefield. seems like once 2-base P gets that critical mass of stalkers, no composition Z has can stop it. it's hard for roaches and hydras to get a good concave, and even if they do, front stalkers just blink away. it's pretty sad .
lings are supposed to counter stalkers, but they ball up so well that you need a million lings and a lot of running time to get the ultimate surround. even then, so many of the stalkers inside the ball are shooting the shit out of them (or they just blink out)
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i think blizzard is trying to pull a Windows Vista then Windows 7 technique its like lets make zerg boring and bad and then when we release HotS we make them little better so everyone will want to have it lol..
its the only explanation i find for whats happening.. i really miss my favourite zerg units the lurker the defiler and scourge but ill never switch.. Zerg 4ever ;D
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I think a lot of people here are severely underestimating Blizzard.
1) Blizzard isn't ok with Zerg being weak just so they can be the flavour-of-the-week in Heart of the Swarm. I just find the notion that Blizzard would purposely keep Zerg down is preposterous.
2) Zerg are not less polished than other races. It's clear that the Zerg have a very specific playstyle - being relatively passive most of the time, parrying enemy harass, then outmacroing the enemy and winning through sheer brute force rather than a multitude of options. Some people may not find this playstyle fun, and it may be too difficult to achieve reliably with the game's current balance, but I don't think that's necessarily an indicator that Zerg lack polish. The balance simply didn't work out the way Blizzard planned.
3) Blizzard IS listening to what people are saying, even if they don't actively make announcements saying that they are. You guys shouldn't need a post from Bashiok to know this. As others have pointed out, Blizzard is just in an unenviable position - they're all too aware of how time can affect the development of the metagame, and so they're torn between waiting and seeing if players come up with something; or hastily implementing a balance patch and potentially creating new problems.
For all we know, maybe a balance patch buffing Zerg would indeed fix everything, but I think that it's unfair for people to think that Blizzard is being unreasonable for not implementing one right away.
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Well, if he practices against Clide and Tester, no wonder he only has a 10% win rate. tester even makes protoss seem UP!
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z00t;
1) Well, they didn't do much to make Zerg actually INTERESTING in beta.
If you look back, A LOT of the balance around Zerg have been lying on Roaches.
2) "The balance simply didn't work out the way Blizzard planned."
This is a key point in much of the problems we're currently seeing;
The game (and especially Zerg) just didn't play out as Blizzard intended it to.
Bunkers is a perfect example of this.
3) The problems that I'm seeing is not so much of an issue with metagame, it's actually more that some combinations are just very, very strong, no matter at what level you play.
This is especially noticeable on ladder, for "normal people", or non-pros.
If you can execute a tactic on ladder that takes very little skill to do, but a comparatively high skill to counter, isn't something wrong here?
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Are there any notable all-in zerg players?
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On September 24 2010 16:59 z00t wrote:
I think a lot of people here are severely underestimating Blizzard.
have you played wc3 Reign of Chaos? and seen the massive amount of changes that were done for The frozen Throne....effectively creating a completely new game?
it's the other way round: people overestimate the effort Blizzard wants to put into patches before the release of any expansion; I'm sure Blizzard is currently heavily into designing one or two new zerg-units that are introduced with the zerg-patch; then protoss will be the weakest race and protoss will get one or two cool new units in their expansion;
and THEN we can expect to have the "final" game that will be carefully balanced
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I think cool will not change ^^
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On September 24 2010 17:39 oBlade wrote:
Are there any notable all-in zerg players?
dimaga  notable for losing with them at least :o
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On September 24 2010 17:08 Flyingdutchman wrote:
Well, if he practices against Clide and Tester, no wonder he only has a 10% win rate. tester even makes protoss seem UP!
You mean OP? Because I don't think protoss is UP as I'm protoss myself.
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On September 24 2010 17:49 nttea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 17:39 oBlade wrote:
Are there any notable all-in zerg players? dimaga notable for losing with them at least :o
Love watching his baneling all-ins. :D
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On September 24 2010 17:49 nttea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 17:39 oBlade wrote:
Are there any notable all-in zerg players? dimaga notable for losing with them at least :o
%100 agreed and the games are funny as hell too
he sometimes becomes an all-in hero and loses the games, it's hillarious.
when he goes macro he is unstoppable but as a spectator I feel very entertained while watching his all-in games.
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On September 24 2010 17:51 slimshady wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 17:08 Flyingdutchman wrote:
Well, if he practices against Clide and Tester, no wonder he only has a 10% win rate. tester even makes protoss seem UP! You mean OP? Because I don't think protoss is UP as I'm protoss myself.
I think he meant he makes the other toss's look UP in PvP
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Meh zerg thinking of switching race maybe going to terran, is something I'd expect if the games goes on like this untill hots.I know that fast small changes are a bit better, and you can't overhaul the game untill an expansione, but if the time is likely 1 year per expansione, having a T favored game(atleast in numbers of players, the majority of tournament winners are terran, surely something is wrong, not surely balanced, but something definitely isn't going right) will create huge troubles.
Zergs will get undeveloped and mostly will quit/switch, tosses aren't surely happy, not zerg-like-bad but still having issues so they'll struggle, then hots comes after a year, the fotm will be zerg, terrans will get "meh" and protoss will get bad, then another year and lotv expansion comes and the games could be balanced, in the meantime in those 2 years the game has probably will have many lopsided situations and will probably have people lose interest/e-sports won't get off big as they should.
That's probably a fatalistic vision I know, but still I'd like to see more decise patches in the meantime, surely after the second expansion will be balanced fine and dandy, but up to that point it needs to not drive away players.If top zerg players will start to migrate to other races the game is going to get worser every month that goes.
We need a good balance at top level to keep the things interesting and keep the scene evolving, we can't just get a race get too dominant for too long because the game will suffer.
As for a side note, I don't think cool will really switch, it was probably a fit of rage and frustration, dimaga(iirc) also had that period and it seems all things have gone well up to now.Atleast I hope so.when we start to see a mass race into another then we'll know for sure the game is failing hard on some aspects..
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On September 24 2010 16:59 z00t wrote:
I think a lot of people here are severely underestimating Blizzard.
1) Blizzard isn't ok with Zerg being weak just so they can be the flavour-of-the-week in Heart of the Swarm. I just find the notion that Blizzard would purposely keep Zerg down is preposterous.
Blizzard would be no. But dont forget Blizzard isn't Blizzard anymore its Activision, which is the most financially motivated gaming company around at the moment. I have no doubt in my mind that Activision would leave Zerg broken only to add units and fix game mechanics in HotS hoping to draw more sales. This is the same company that said they would basically leave things out of yearly serialized games so they could add them next year and sell more copies.
I really wonder if Blizzard has though about how much this will damage SC2 as an e-sport when 90% of the tournament games will be TvT, Tank/Viking is like watching paint dry... its painful.
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