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On September 24 2010 13:23 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 04:34 SlowBlink wrote:On September 24 2010 04:26 lolbad wrote:
its also funny to me how we got from "zerg is a reactionary race just get used to it" to this in 1,5 months. pretty self-explanatory I still never understood why people all of a sudden decided that zerg should be the reactionary race. Anyone remember the term "zerg rush"? ZvT used to go something "oh no, it's a zerg, I should wall off and play defensive early on so I don't get rushed". Now it goes something like "oh no, it's a zerg, as long as I mass any unit and push before the 12 minute mark, I should just roflstomp him" Also, people telling zergs to do more drop play should note that zerg drops cost 100 min + supply + 150/150 speed + 200/200 drop, Overlords don't have magical healing powers. Medivacs cost 100/100. You can see why this is not a viable option. Just to answer that. 150/150 speed + 200/200 is 3.5 dropships, so you can't honestly argue on the cost. And at lair tech you can research both at the same time, one on each hatch. When both research are done, you'll have like 10 dropships ready. I don't say it's better or worse than terran, just saying it's very useable. Just people won't do it until a pro player release a replay pack when he goes drops each game. Remember cool vs xxx in GSL on LT iirc ? Cool rushed to drop tech and just erased the protoss main from the face of the world in seconds. 4 banelings being droped on a saturated mineral like will kill an absurd amount of workers. But zerg players are not doing it because of some ideological reasons. (like "it's so expensive" or "but ol don't heal") I don't try to say it's THAT easy and it will magicaly fix everything. Just saying that zerg is certainly up, but zerg are even more up in the player's mind than they are in reality.
its much easier to not die while waiting for the investment to pay off for terran.
try spending 350/350 that wont be useful for minutes and then surviving a terran attack. z drops are great later on in the game, but most of the time you cant even afford to get overlord speed before mid game.
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On September 24 2010 13:48 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 13:23 MrCon wrote:On September 24 2010 04:34 SlowBlink wrote:On September 24 2010 04:26 lolbad wrote:
its also funny to me how we got from "zerg is a reactionary race just get used to it" to this in 1,5 months. pretty self-explanatory I still never understood why people all of a sudden decided that zerg should be the reactionary race. Anyone remember the term "zerg rush"? ZvT used to go something "oh no, it's a zerg, I should wall off and play defensive early on so I don't get rushed". Now it goes something like "oh no, it's a zerg, as long as I mass any unit and push before the 12 minute mark, I should just roflstomp him" Also, people telling zergs to do more drop play should note that zerg drops cost 100 min + supply + 150/150 speed + 200/200 drop, Overlords don't have magical healing powers. Medivacs cost 100/100. You can see why this is not a viable option. Just to answer that. 150/150 speed + 200/200 is 3.5 dropships, so you can't honestly argue on the cost. And at lair tech you can research both at the same time, one on each hatch. When both research are done, you'll have like 10 dropships ready. I don't say it's better or worse than terran, just saying it's very useable. Just people won't do it until a pro player release a replay pack when he goes drops each game. Remember cool vs xxx in GSL on LT iirc ? Cool rushed to drop tech and just erased the protoss main from the face of the world in seconds. 4 banelings being droped on a saturated mineral like will kill an absurd amount of workers. But zerg players are not doing it because of some ideological reasons. (like "it's so expensive" or "but ol don't heal") I don't try to say it's THAT easy and it will magicaly fix everything. Just saying that zerg is certainly up, but zerg are even more up in the player's mind than they are in reality. its much easier to not die while waiting for the investment to pay off for terran. try spending 350/350 that wont be useful for minutes and then surviving a terran attack. z drops are great later on in the game, but most of the time you cant even afford to get overlord speed before mid game.
Pretty much this..you need just about every unit you can pump out early game ZvT otherwise terran just going to smash down your natural with a push while you're not ready for it preparing for your drop. You need just about every unit you can get out early-mid game to defend
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On September 24 2010 13:23 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 04:34 SlowBlink wrote:On September 24 2010 04:26 lolbad wrote:
its also funny to me how we got from "zerg is a reactionary race just get used to it" to this in 1,5 months. pretty self-explanatory I still never understood why people all of a sudden decided that zerg should be the reactionary race. Anyone remember the term "zerg rush"? ZvT used to go something "oh no, it's a zerg, I should wall off and play defensive early on so I don't get rushed". Now it goes something like "oh no, it's a zerg, as long as I mass any unit and push before the 12 minute mark, I should just roflstomp him" Also, people telling zergs to do more drop play should note that zerg drops cost 100 min + supply + 150/150 speed + 200/200 drop, Overlords don't have magical healing powers. Medivacs cost 100/100. You can see why this is not a viable option. Just to answer that. 150/150 speed + 200/200 is 3.5 dropships, so you can't honestly argue on the cost. And at lair tech you can research both at the same time, one on each hatch. When both research are done, you'll have like 10 dropships ready. I don't say it's better or worse than terran, just saying it's very useable. Just people won't do it until a pro player release a replay pack when he goes drops each game. Remember cool vs xxx in GSL on LT iirc ? Cool rushed to drop tech and just erased the protoss main from the face of the world in seconds. 4 banelings being droped on a saturated mineral like will kill an absurd amount of workers. But zerg players are not doing it because of some ideological reasons. (like "it's so expensive" or "but ol don't heal") I don't try to say it's THAT easy and it will magicaly fix everything. Just saying that zerg is certainly up, but zerg are even more up in the player's mind than they are in reality.
There are a few key differences between the Terran drop and Zerg drop unrelated to cost.
1) Overlords (upgraded) are slower than medivacs, significantly slower. This means that the opponent has more time to see it coming, more time to send troops, more time to evacuate scvs etc.
2) Zerg doesn't have a marauder ... now 16 zerglings do hurt, but 8 marauders have just ludicrous DPS against buildings and can take out crucial (and expensive and very long to build) tech like a spire or just take out a hatchery (which is production and the resource deposit). When it comes to drone killing 4 banelings can't hold a candle to 4 blue flame hellions once you consider that those blue flames survive to do it again.
3) Terran bases are massively more resistant. The CC is only a mineral deposit, you can't cripple half his production by taking it out, the tech is spread between a bunch of buildings which are often duplicated so the best you can hope for is to reduce production capacity a little, not halt all muta production for 2 minutes. Not only that but all those buildings can lift which makes them immune to the zerglings you would want (for their cheap cost and high DPS).
4) A Terran player can lose a drop in the midgame and not get crushed at home because Terran defenses are insanely hard (a few sieged tanks at home and you can lose the rest of your forces). Zerg can't afford to lose much without just getting steamrolled up front, every unit is not only resources but larvae which means you fall behind in either econ or army when you lose a bunch of troops for nothing. This is what makes dropping 12 hydras a very risky move (if we could defend reliably 12 hydras have good DPS and could do real damage).
5) Terran has better AA and defense against drops. Turrets are better than spore crawlers in every way (cheaper, don't cost workers or larvae, can be placed anywhere). Marines are often present and move very fast with stim (and chew through overlords just as fast). Vikings have absolutely obscene range and move faster than the OLs (while I don't think they move faster than drop ships).
6) The combination or points 1 and 2 is that Terran can drop, kill and leave. The faster kill speed and faster ships means you can save the troops and transports relatively frequently. A Zerg drop is usually a suicide because they see you coming better, you take longer to kill things and then you leave slower.
7) The combination of 2 and 3 is that Zerg won't do real damage unless they go for a doom drop which is all in.
Dropping toss is a little more viable (because he has key tech structures and can't lift off and pylons which can disrupt production in a big way). This is especially true if blink stalkers are absent (and the fact that hydras are not completely useless against toss adds to this).
Note that I haven't seen many drops from P versus T either for a lot of the same reasons.
As for playing Zerg, I find it fun. I think it's unfortunate that I see mostly 4 gates and Terran all ins but that will change as more and more people learn to demolish those (I am not great vT but I can annihilate a 4 gate lol, practice helps). It's a problem at the pro level, for me it's a challenge because I don't have a career hanging in the balance but it must really suck for the Zerg pros who are at a pretty clear disadvantage until Blizzard actually fixes things.
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I don't feel comfortable doing any of the "cute" builds for zerg until late game. Games against Terran often feel like a dice roll because I can't scout as well as I'd like, and if I don't have some sort of army comprised of the meat and bones units then my play feels extremely flimsy.
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On September 24 2010 13:44 theqat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 13:29 MrCon wrote:On September 24 2010 13:25 theqat wrote:On September 24 2010 13:23 MrCon wrote:On September 24 2010 04:34 SlowBlink wrote:On September 24 2010 04:26 lolbad wrote:
its also funny to me how we got from "zerg is a reactionary race just get used to it" to this in 1,5 months. pretty self-explanatory I still never understood why people all of a sudden decided that zerg should be the reactionary race. Anyone remember the term "zerg rush"? ZvT used to go something "oh no, it's a zerg, I should wall off and play defensive early on so I don't get rushed". Now it goes something like "oh no, it's a zerg, as long as I mass any unit and push before the 12 minute mark, I should just roflstomp him" Also, people telling zergs to do more drop play should note that zerg drops cost 100 min + supply + 150/150 speed + 200/200 drop, Overlords don't have magical healing powers. Medivacs cost 100/100. You can see why this is not a viable option. Just to answer that. 150/150 speed + 200/200 is 3.5 dropships, so you can't honestly argue on the cost. And at lair tech you can research both at the same time, one on each hatch. When both research are done, you'll have like 10 dropships ready. I don't say it's better or worse than terran, just saying it's very useable. . It's not very usable because that money does not contribute to the Zerg's normal army in any way, unlike Medivacs heal units. You need every bit of that money you might have spent on OL speed/drops for units to counter the Terran's units. This post proves my 2nd point. Nah, it proves that if your drop investment succeeds it's because the Terran messed up and didn't stop it with one of his 345823985 hard counters to Zerg air :\
Sorry, I seemed rude with my one line answer, that was not my intention.
What I wanted to say is that you suggesting that, at no point of no game, a zerg can afford a 350/350 tech. If that's true, well, zerg race is really, really, really broken. But I think that's not true.
Now you use a different argument. Well, when a terran want to drop he hugs the map borders and try to sneak in against a race that has overlords spread everywhere.
I don't see how it's different for a zerg to sneak 1 or several overlords to drop a mineral line. It's in fact easier (because most players will see an overlord going in their main as a scout and not a drop threat). You imply that a terran will always have his army ready to fight the drop, wich is obviously not true.
But that's why I said that zerg is up, but is even more up in zerg's player mind. Zerg players (and I am one of them) always find excuses to say that nothing will never work using arguments that don't suit the reality of a 1v1 match. So they end not trying anything. (obv an exageration but you see the point)
edit : I have to say that the current map pool is really bad for zerg players in this regard. They have nowhere safe to put scouting overlord to. ICCUP maps are soooo much better.
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I play T. I wish they would have buffed overlord base speed and made overlords as fast as medvacs when upgraded.
I really think Z needs a reliable way to scout and drop.
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On September 24 2010 13:56 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 13:44 theqat wrote:On September 24 2010 13:29 MrCon wrote:On September 24 2010 13:25 theqat wrote:On September 24 2010 13:23 MrCon wrote:On September 24 2010 04:34 SlowBlink wrote:On September 24 2010 04:26 lolbad wrote:
its also funny to me how we got from "zerg is a reactionary race just get used to it" to this in 1,5 months. pretty self-explanatory I still never understood why people all of a sudden decided that zerg should be the reactionary race. Anyone remember the term "zerg rush"? ZvT used to go something "oh no, it's a zerg, I should wall off and play defensive early on so I don't get rushed". Now it goes something like "oh no, it's a zerg, as long as I mass any unit and push before the 12 minute mark, I should just roflstomp him" Also, people telling zergs to do more drop play should note that zerg drops cost 100 min + supply + 150/150 speed + 200/200 drop, Overlords don't have magical healing powers. Medivacs cost 100/100. You can see why this is not a viable option. Just to answer that. 150/150 speed + 200/200 is 3.5 dropships, so you can't honestly argue on the cost. And at lair tech you can research both at the same time, one on each hatch. When both research are done, you'll have like 10 dropships ready. I don't say it's better or worse than terran, just saying it's very useable. . It's not very usable because that money does not contribute to the Zerg's normal army in any way, unlike Medivacs heal units. You need every bit of that money you might have spent on OL speed/drops for units to counter the Terran's units. This post proves my 2nd point. Nah, it proves that if your drop investment succeeds it's because the Terran messed up and didn't stop it with one of his 345823985 hard counters to Zerg air :\ Sorry, I seemed rude with my one line answer, that was not my intention. What I wanted to say is that you suggesting that, at no point of no game, a zerg can afford a 350/350 tech. If that's true, well, zerg race is really, really, really broken. But I think that's not true. Now you use a different argument. Well, when a terran want to drop he hugs the map borders and try to sneak in against a race that has overlords spread everywhere. I don't see how it's different for a zerg to sneak 1 or several overlords to drop a mineral line. It's in fact easier (because most players will see an overlord going in their main as a scout and not a drop threat). You imply that a terran will always have his army ready to fight the drop, wich is obviously not true. But that's why I said that zerg is up, but is even more up in zerg's player mind. Zerg players (and I am one of them) always find excuses to say that nothing will never work using arguments that don't suit the reality of a 1v1 match. So they end not trying anything. (obv an exageration but you see the point)
No offense taken, just stating my feelings on it. See the other four replies to your post for some elaboration 
The sad reality of most 1v1 matches is that Zerg dies to the Terran's first committed attack if he hasn't scouted the Terran almost perfectly and committed as much as possible to defending it. There lies the need for every possible unit. Zerg simply can't take the initiative. I guess if that reality changes then we might see more drop play.
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Zergs ability to scout is probably one the the biggest things holding them back right now. They're supposed to be the reactive race but they're ability to gather information is crappy at best.
I think OV speed upgrade for 50/50 tier 1 would go a long way in helping zerg play the way they were intended to be played.
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On September 24 2010 13:48 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 13:23 MrCon wrote:On September 24 2010 04:34 SlowBlink wrote:On September 24 2010 04:26 lolbad wrote:
its also funny to me how we got from "zerg is a reactionary race just get used to it" to this in 1,5 months. pretty self-explanatory I still never understood why people all of a sudden decided that zerg should be the reactionary race. Anyone remember the term "zerg rush"? ZvT used to go something "oh no, it's a zerg, I should wall off and play defensive early on so I don't get rushed". Now it goes something like "oh no, it's a zerg, as long as I mass any unit and push before the 12 minute mark, I should just roflstomp him" Also, people telling zergs to do more drop play should note that zerg drops cost 100 min + supply + 150/150 speed + 200/200 drop, Overlords don't have magical healing powers. Medivacs cost 100/100. You can see why this is not a viable option. Just to answer that. 150/150 speed + 200/200 is 3.5 dropships, so you can't honestly argue on the cost. And at lair tech you can research both at the same time, one on each hatch. When both research are done, you'll have like 10 dropships ready. I don't say it's better or worse than terran, just saying it's very useable. Just people won't do it until a pro player release a replay pack when he goes drops each game. Remember cool vs xxx in GSL on LT iirc ? Cool rushed to drop tech and just erased the protoss main from the face of the world in seconds. 4 banelings being droped on a saturated mineral like will kill an absurd amount of workers. But zerg players are not doing it because of some ideological reasons. (like "it's so expensive" or "but ol don't heal") I don't try to say it's THAT easy and it will magicaly fix everything. Just saying that zerg is certainly up, but zerg are even more up in the player's mind than they are in reality. its much easier to not die while waiting for the investment to pay off for terran. try spending 350/350 that wont be useful for minutes and then surviving a terran attack. z drops are great later on in the game, but most of the time you cant even afford to get overlord speed before mid game.
its not a question of how easy it is to get. What the hell do we load into them?
zerglings = can barely kill depos dies to workers
banelings = can kill A building or A depo
Roach = workers and depos
Hydra = workers and depos
Infestor = workers and depos
Mutalisk = Workers and depos.
recognice a pattern? you should. because outside of loading 50 supply worth of units our drops do very little damage towards protoss and terran infrastructure. To top this off outlying terran expansions are often planetary fortress and thusly require alot of troops to even consider attacking.
and guess what happens when you unload 50 supply worth of units at the wrong time? Thats right the terran player attacks your front because you cant defend it anymore.
Zerg simply cannot do significant damage with their drop tech outside of a "doom" drop to warrant getting it before hive tech units are out while terran can load up their anti armored building destroyer units and cause HEAVY damage to infastructure in a matter of seconds.
You practically need nydus worm to be able to whip back and defend. This works but demands the player plan significantly far ahead and thats one of the primary reasons you wont see players considering getting both upgrades before hive.
Now some maps do warrant getting it instantly, such as lost temple but that is not because its so incredibly usefull. Its because lost temple has this cliff that the opponent can abuse.
The investment into drop or nydus only pays for itself when you have a significant enough economy army and tech advantage to unlease the ultralisk upon the infastructure of unsuspecting terran, protoss or even zerg foes.
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On September 24 2010 13:56 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 13:44 theqat wrote:On September 24 2010 13:29 MrCon wrote:On September 24 2010 13:25 theqat wrote:On September 24 2010 13:23 MrCon wrote:On September 24 2010 04:34 SlowBlink wrote:On September 24 2010 04:26 lolbad wrote:
its also funny to me how we got from "zerg is a reactionary race just get used to it" to this in 1,5 months. pretty self-explanatory I still never understood why people all of a sudden decided that zerg should be the reactionary race. Anyone remember the term "zerg rush"? ZvT used to go something "oh no, it's a zerg, I should wall off and play defensive early on so I don't get rushed". Now it goes something like "oh no, it's a zerg, as long as I mass any unit and push before the 12 minute mark, I should just roflstomp him" Also, people telling zergs to do more drop play should note that zerg drops cost 100 min + supply + 150/150 speed + 200/200 drop, Overlords don't have magical healing powers. Medivacs cost 100/100. You can see why this is not a viable option. Just to answer that. 150/150 speed + 200/200 is 3.5 dropships, so you can't honestly argue on the cost. And at lair tech you can research both at the same time, one on each hatch. When both research are done, you'll have like 10 dropships ready. I don't say it's better or worse than terran, just saying it's very useable. . It's not very usable because that money does not contribute to the Zerg's normal army in any way, unlike Medivacs heal units. You need every bit of that money you might have spent on OL speed/drops for units to counter the Terran's units. This post proves my 2nd point. Nah, it proves that if your drop investment succeeds it's because the Terran messed up and didn't stop it with one of his 345823985 hard counters to Zerg air :\ Sorry, I seemed rude with my one line answer, that was not my intention. What I wanted to say is that you suggesting that, at no point of no game, a zerg can afford a 350/350 tech. If that's true, well, zerg race is really, really, really broken. But I think that's not true. Now you use a different argument. Well, when a terran want to drop he hugs the map borders and try to sneak in against a race that has overlords spread everywhere. I don't see how it's different for a zerg to sneak 1 or several overlords to drop a mineral line. It's in fact easier (because most players will see an overlord going in their main as a scout and not a drop threat). You imply that a terran will always have his army ready to fight the drop, wich is obviously not true. But that's why I said that zerg is up, but is even more up in zerg's player mind. Zerg players (and I am one of them) always find excuses to say that nothing will never work using arguments that don't suit the reality of a 1v1 match. So they end not trying anything. (obv an exageration but you see the point) edit : I have to say that the current map pool is really bad for zerg players in this regard. They have nowhere safe to put scouting overlord to. ICCUP maps are soooo much better.
If Terran sees your drop (and sensor towers work better than OL spread, not to mention OL spread gets them owned by vikings) he kills it with whatever he has (marines will do).
If Zerg sees your drop he most likely can only ward it off by keeping speedlings under it because hydras can't catch drop ships and if the Zerg doesn't have a bunch of mutas handy, he can't attack up.
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On September 24 2010 13:48 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 13:23 MrCon wrote:On September 24 2010 04:34 SlowBlink wrote:On September 24 2010 04:26 lolbad wrote:
its also funny to me how we got from "zerg is a reactionary race just get used to it" to this in 1,5 months. pretty self-explanatory I still never understood why people all of a sudden decided that zerg should be the reactionary race. Anyone remember the term "zerg rush"? ZvT used to go something "oh no, it's a zerg, I should wall off and play defensive early on so I don't get rushed". Now it goes something like "oh no, it's a zerg, as long as I mass any unit and push before the 12 minute mark, I should just roflstomp him" Also, people telling zergs to do more drop play should note that zerg drops cost 100 min + supply + 150/150 speed + 200/200 drop, Overlords don't have magical healing powers. Medivacs cost 100/100. You can see why this is not a viable option. Just to answer that. 150/150 speed + 200/200 is 3.5 dropships, so you can't honestly argue on the cost. And at lair tech you can research both at the same time, one on each hatch. When both research are done, you'll have like 10 dropships ready. I don't say it's better or worse than terran, just saying it's very useable. Just people won't do it until a pro player release a replay pack when he goes drops each game. Remember cool vs xxx in GSL on LT iirc ? Cool rushed to drop tech and just erased the protoss main from the face of the world in seconds. 4 banelings being droped on a saturated mineral like will kill an absurd amount of workers. But zerg players are not doing it because of some ideological reasons. (like "it's so expensive" or "but ol don't heal") I don't try to say it's THAT easy and it will magicaly fix everything. Just saying that zerg is certainly up, but zerg are even more up in the player's mind than they are in reality. its much easier to not die while waiting for the investment to pay off for terran. try spending 350/350 that wont be useful for minutes and then surviving a terran attack. z drops are great later on in the game, but most of the time you cant even afford to get overlord speed before mid game. That is very true. Usualy you can't afford it in the early game or you die right away.
But still, in long games you never see zerg doing drops. Obv unless you drop 10+ banes on a PF you can't snipe buildings like a few marauders can. But you cain aim the workers and kill like 24 of them with 4-6 banes nearly instantly. And most players won't even react the first few times because as I said, they don't perceive the ol as a threat.
(I just want to clarify that I'm not saying "L2P everything is fine" here. Zergs have a lot of pbs right now. But I still think they are not used to their potential)
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I won't be that surprised if they changed races, seeing in the GSL how tough the life of zerg is , I think alot of them were crossing their fingers hoping that latest patch would help em , but then meh ... oh well.
Zerg drops are really really weak compared to the other 2 races , for less than 20 food , 8 marauders can take out your hatch in a blink of an eye , storm or immortal drops are sick. What does zerg have with 20 food that can do sick drops?
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Darn. I feel like Zerg is just entering this cycle of falling behind. The less pros we have playing zerg, the less zerg strategy can develop and the more it falls behind terran/protoss strategy. And then this in turn causes more people to stop playing zerg, and the cycle just continues.
Pretty soon we'll just have a small pool of Zerg players developing strategies. And then when it comes time to balance Blizzard will have to take into account that Zerg will be playing at an overall lower caliber than the other two races. Things could be tough in the future, if we don't keep a somewhat balanced racial ratio : (.
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Don't forget that dropping banelings on scvs doesn't do nearly as much as killing drones; terran mules can seriously get them back into the game, whereas zerg needs to spend more larva getting their drones back.
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I wish I had the time to read more than a few pages of this, but my gut tells me that if I did, I'd just run into a bunch of garbage. Is it worth it?
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On September 24 2010 14:35 pieisamazing wrote:
I wish I had the time to read more than a few pages of this, but my gut tells me that if I did, I'd just run into a bunch of garbage. Is it worth it?
Only if zerg tears fuel you in some way.
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Hrm. I guess it's not worth it, but I think they can be allowed their tears in this case.
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I want Cool to lose his match so there will be more QQ and maybe he will finally switch instead of not switching and losing and getting angry.
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i would be mad if i had to play practice games against clide and tester as a zerg player, too.
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On September 24 2010 09:33 Zeroes wrote:GOOD NEWS EVERYONEhttp://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/627980736?page=3#55Blizz has responded to a poster saying that they are talking to pro players and have balance changes Show nested quote +
We're well aware of the concerns on balance, if we're not in direct contact with pro players we keep a careful eye on what they say and do. I know balance changes are planned, I've heard of some specific changes for the next patch. I can't talk about them yet. Soon.
lol, Cool rages and Blizz comes running. Why can't I be that good? 
This kinda has me excited 
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EPT
