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150/150 speed + 200/200 is 3.5 dropships, so you can't honestly argue on the cost. And at lair tech you can research both at the same time, one on each hatch.
TBH I've never been able to understand why overlord upgrades even require lair tech. Nobody's going to be rushing overlord drops without speed, although rushing speed may offer another option for scouting (which is something we need), but tbh what with all the other pressures the main hatch is under (lair/queens) it seems the requirement is just entirely superfluous.
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On September 24 2010 12:32 deverlight wrote:Hahaha apparently Fruitseller knows about this thread... http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=2109142&page=3Title reads "lololololol wtf why is my QQ post on teamliquid?" Body reads "lololololol wtf" Netizen comments go something along the lines of "You're famous worldwide!" "Anyway please win tonight 2:0!" "Lol now you can't even take back what you said - looks like you'll just have to change races" "Of course they know when one of the best zergs in the world is crying" "You're their zerg hero!"
This is absolutely hilarious.
Also from this post it seems that Fruitseller's QQ was something more of temporary thing.
Hope he isn't offended it 'leaked' out to western SC community. ;p
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One thing that always bothers me... is that in other games, what is perceived as powerful is simply just used for their own benefit. Even if it means that 1 character/race/class is obviously the best so everyone uses it. Look at fighting games. ZOMG 50 MAN ROSTER... same 3 characters used in high level matches. Counter-Strike? ZOMG LOOK AT ALL THESE PISTOLS... only deagle worth buying...
Maybe it's different for SC because it means throwing out all the practice you did with one race out the window.
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props to IdrA if he really keeps playing Zerg when everybody is switching race. Nevertheless this is a very sad day for Starcraft.
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On September 24 2010 15:32 Ownos wrote:
One thing that always bothers me... is that in other games, what is perceived as powerful is simply just used for their own benefit. Even if it means that 1 character/race/class is obviously the best so everyone uses it. Look at fighting games. ZOMG 50 MAN ROSTER... same 3 characters used in high level matches. Counter-Strike? ZOMG LOOK AT ALL THESE PISTOLS... only deagle worth buying...
Maybe it's different for SC because it means throwing out all the practice you did with one race out the window.
Uh, no, it's different for SC because SC2 is trying to live up to SC:BW, probably the deepest, most balanced RTS ever. Games that are accepted as imbalanced are inherently more shallow. That, or let's all go play AoE instead.
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On September 24 2010 15:08 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 09:33 Zeroes wrote:GOOD NEWS EVERYONEhttp://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/627980736?page=3#55Blizz has responded to a poster saying that they are talking to pro players and have balance changes
We're well aware of the concerns on balance, if we're not in direct contact with pro players we keep a careful eye on what they say and do. I know balance changes are planned, I've heard of some specific changes for the next patch. I can't talk about them yet. Soon.
lol, Cool rages and Blizz comes running. Why can't I be that good?  This kinda has me excited 
of course one of the best zergs and many other players who are top level say zerg are weak even when they dont play zerg.
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On September 24 2010 15:30 LuciferSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 12:32 deverlight wrote:Hahaha apparently Fruitseller knows about this thread... http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=2109142&page=3Title reads "lololololol wtf why is my QQ post on teamliquid?" Body reads "lololololol wtf" Netizen comments go something along the lines of "You're famous worldwide!" "Anyway please win tonight 2:0!" "Lol now you can't even take back what you said - looks like you'll just have to change races" "Of course they know when one of the best zergs in the world is crying" "You're their zerg hero!" This is absolutely hilarious. Also from this post it seems that Fruitseller's QQ was something more of temporary thing. Hope he isn't offended it 'leaked' out to western SC community. ;p
I don't know about a temporary thing. To me, this post shows that he is getting very frustrated with Zerg. He does say it's a QQ post but at the very least he has thought about changing, which in itself doesn't bode well for the game...
Seems Cool is really missing his Scourge. HotS will probably fix some/most of the stuff. Too bad it's still a long time before it get's here.
If it really comes to that, Cool, Check and even JulyZERG changing to another race, I'd be a very very sad panda. At least it will be a very clear sign to Blizzard. Hope they see it...
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On September 24 2010 15:36 Incanus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 15:32 Ownos wrote:
One thing that always bothers me... is that in other games, what is perceived as powerful is simply just used for their own benefit. Even if it means that 1 character/race/class is obviously the best so everyone uses it. Look at fighting games. ZOMG 50 MAN ROSTER... same 3 characters used in high level matches. Counter-Strike? ZOMG LOOK AT ALL THESE PISTOLS... only deagle worth buying...
Maybe it's different for SC because it means throwing out all the practice you did with one race out the window. Uh, no, it's different for SC because SC2 is trying to live up to SC:BW, probably the deepest, most balanced RTS ever. Games that are accepted as imbalanced are inherently more shallow. That, or let's all go play AoE instead.
That didn't really answer my question....
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On September 24 2010 15:44 Ownos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 15:36 Incanus wrote:On September 24 2010 15:32 Ownos wrote:
One thing that always bothers me... is that in other games, what is perceived as powerful is simply just used for their own benefit. Even if it means that 1 character/race/class is obviously the best so everyone uses it. Look at fighting games. ZOMG 50 MAN ROSTER... same 3 characters used in high level matches. Counter-Strike? ZOMG LOOK AT ALL THESE PISTOLS... only deagle worth buying...
Maybe it's different for SC because it means throwing out all the practice you did with one race out the window. Uh, no, it's different for SC because SC2 is trying to live up to SC:BW, probably the deepest, most balanced RTS ever. Games that are accepted as imbalanced are inherently more shallow. That, or let's all go play AoE instead. That didn't really answer my question....
What is your question exactly...?
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On September 24 2010 13:55 Sixes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 13:23 MrCon wrote:On September 24 2010 04:34 SlowBlink wrote:On September 24 2010 04:26 lolbad wrote:
its also funny to me how we got from "zerg is a reactionary race just get used to it" to this in 1,5 months. pretty self-explanatory I still never understood why people all of a sudden decided that zerg should be the reactionary race. Anyone remember the term "zerg rush"? ZvT used to go something "oh no, it's a zerg, I should wall off and play defensive early on so I don't get rushed". Now it goes something like "oh no, it's a zerg, as long as I mass any unit and push before the 12 minute mark, I should just roflstomp him" Also, people telling zergs to do more drop play should note that zerg drops cost 100 min + supply + 150/150 speed + 200/200 drop, Overlords don't have magical healing powers. Medivacs cost 100/100. You can see why this is not a viable option. Just to answer that. 150/150 speed + 200/200 is 3.5 dropships, so you can't honestly argue on the cost. And at lair tech you can research both at the same time, one on each hatch. When both research are done, you'll have like 10 dropships ready. I don't say it's better or worse than terran, just saying it's very useable. Just people won't do it until a pro player release a replay pack when he goes drops each game. Remember cool vs xxx in GSL on LT iirc ? Cool rushed to drop tech and just erased the protoss main from the face of the world in seconds. 4 banelings being droped on a saturated mineral like will kill an absurd amount of workers. But zerg players are not doing it because of some ideological reasons. (like "it's so expensive" or "but ol don't heal") I don't try to say it's THAT easy and it will magicaly fix everything. Just saying that zerg is certainly up, but zerg are even more up in the player's mind than they are in reality. There are a few key differences between the Terran drop and Zerg drop unrelated to cost. 1) Overlords (upgraded) are slower than medivacs, significantly slower. This means that the opponent has more time to see it coming, more time to send troops, more time to evacuate scvs etc. 2) Zerg doesn't have a marauder ... now 16 zerglings do hurt, but 8 marauders have just ludicrous DPS against buildings and can take out crucial (and expensive and very long to build) tech like a spire or just take out a hatchery (which is production and the resource deposit). When it comes to drone killing 4 banelings can't hold a candle to 4 blue flame hellions once you consider that those blue flames survive to do it again. 3) Terran bases are massively more resistant. The CC is only a mineral deposit, you can't cripple half his production by taking it out, the tech is spread between a bunch of buildings which are often duplicated so the best you can hope for is to reduce production capacity a little, not halt all muta production for 2 minutes. Not only that but all those buildings can lift which makes them immune to the zerglings you would want (for their cheap cost and high DPS). 4) A Terran player can lose a drop in the midgame and not get crushed at home because Terran defenses are insanely hard (a few sieged tanks at home and you can lose the rest of your forces). Zerg can't afford to lose much without just getting steamrolled up front, every unit is not only resources but larvae which means you fall behind in either econ or army when you lose a bunch of troops for nothing. This is what makes dropping 12 hydras a very risky move (if we could defend reliably 12 hydras have good DPS and could do real damage). 5) Terran has better AA and defense against drops. Turrets are better than spore crawlers in every way (cheaper, don't cost workers or larvae, can be placed anywhere). Marines are often present and move very fast with stim (and chew through overlords just as fast). Vikings have absolutely obscene range and move faster than the OLs (while I don't think they move faster than drop ships). 6) The combination or points 1 and 2 is that Terran can drop, kill and leave. The faster kill speed and faster ships means you can save the troops and transports relatively frequently. A Zerg drop is usually a suicide because they see you coming better, you take longer to kill things and then you leave slower. 7) The combination of 2 and 3 is that Zerg won't do real damage unless they go for a doom drop which is all in. Dropping toss is a little more viable (because he has key tech structures and can't lift off and pylons which can disrupt production in a big way). This is especially true if blink stalkers are absent (and the fact that hydras are not completely useless against toss adds to this). Note that I haven't seen many drops from P versus T either for a lot of the same reasons. As for playing Zerg, I find it fun. I think it's unfortunate that I see mostly 4 gates and Terran all ins but that will change as more and more people learn to demolish those (I am not great vT but I can annihilate a 4 gate lol, practice helps). It's a problem at the pro level, for me it's a challenge because I don't have a career hanging in the balance but it must really suck for the Zerg pros who are at a pretty clear disadvantage until Blizzard actually fixes things.
very true!
Especially the all-in part. I feel like Zergs strats that are all-in's are equally powerful as T/P-strats that aren't all-in's.
If I go for a doomdrop, it turns into a basetrade almost always and in those situations, Zerg has no chance against a T/P lategame-army.
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The thing about balance patches is, with SC and BW the community was learning a new game for the first time, it was quite revolutionary. The players and Blizzard were at the same pace. With SC2 however the players seem way far ahead of Blizzard. There were tournies run on the beta version of the game ffs! Blizzard said they never expected that.
Blizzard needs to catch up to the players.
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On September 24 2010 15:33 5FDP wrote:
props to IdrA if he really keeps playing Zerg when everybody is switching race. Nevertheless this is a very sad day for Starcraft.
Actually he should swtich too. As zerg player im a huge IdrA fan but he has to make a living. Hes doing this as a career not for fun, if it would benefit his wallet to switch i think he should too...
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On a distant, shadowed world, the Zerg will make their final stand. Their heroes will gather, their forces will be marsheled, and they will die, bravely. But still, they will die.
And the Zerg... Will be slaves... To the Terrans.
All will bow before the power... Of the Fallen One.
(what would happen if IdrA changed to Terran)
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In specific to the drops and the issue which seems to be at the heart of his post, there are really 2 major areas of concern:
1) The ability for the medi-vac to both heal and drop. This means that a typical Terran play will want many of these as part of both a non-mobile army as it pushes across the map, as well as opening up the avenues of harassment as a standard army unit. This is a potential issue because with the uses being combined into one unit, it makes for a high synergy unit that is nearly always going to be part of an army. You won't see a Protoss or a Zerg with 10 transport ships as part of their standard army. (One could argue the overlord could be used in the same capacity, but it's not quite the same concept - although I really think this is underused by Zerg in general. They really do have a somewhat similar capacity to Terran to mobilize with Nidus Canals and Overlords at all points after lair tech)
2) At a higher level of play, the shift queuing option causes some issues when combined with the above. Because of the fact that a typical Terran bio-ball will have a portion of drop ships, it's possible to queue many drops at the same time, without actually need to manage them real time. In this situation the defender has a disadvantage, because reacting happens in real time whereas queuing allows you to plan moves ahead. This gives a distinct advantage to the attackig player that a defending player can honestly never make up for. This feature is abused in Terran matches mostly simply because of the current mindset, but it could be abused in all matches - especially Zerg which I feel still hasn't fully unlocked it's mobility. I mean, imagine 3 queued drops with cheap lings going on at the very moment a Nidus worm is popped into the main. Zerg also have the advantage here of being able to retreat instantaneously across the map as well in this situation. I believe this form of mobility is seriously underused in general.
Anyways, I think the solution is probably something very simple. In my mind balancing the races might be as simple as splitting the medi-vac into two units: one unit capable of transport, and one unit capable of healing. In this manner the Terran player would have to be more careful with the drop ships, and Terran drops in general without healing back-up wouldn't be nearly as potent. It might also add an interesting dynamic to Terran matches in general.
FYI - I'm not the type of person to scream "Overpowered". I am a firm believer in things taking time to develop and requiring constant changes in RTS. If people have only unlocked 50% of the potential of races at this point, there is still much more to learn. I am merely throwing out ideas that popped into my head because players I respect and admire as my superiors seem to have the opinion that something needs to be shaken up.
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Zerg may not be fine but it's still fun to play. At mid-diamond level that imba thing is not so huge since I have so much more room to improve.
Zerg is the only race giving me real "fun" in this game, I don't enjoy playing the others.
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This is so sad to see. Even top tier Zerg players are struggling and started to rage about imbalances. It's so hard to fend off air without investing too much into hydras and mutas and get over run elsewhere. Hydras really need to go back to tier 1.5 and deal a little less damage and cost a little less. It's so stupid to see a tier 2 unit with 80 HP. Right now, the hydralisk is so underused because it's slow and easily hard countered. So what's Zerg's only plausible "AA"? More mutas.
How you can make Zerg have no AA (don't give me the queen crap), until mutas/corruptors? There's just something wrong with this formula.
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On September 24 2010 16:10 cHaNg-sTa wrote:
This is so sad to see. Even top tier Zerg players are struggling and started to rage about imbalances. It's so hard to fend off air without investing too much into hydras and mutas and get over run elsewhere. Hydras really need to go back to tier 1.5 and deal a little less damage and cost a little less. It's so stupid to see a tier 2 unit with 80 HP. Right now, the hydralisk is so underused because it's slow and easily hard countered. So what's Zerg's only plausible "AA"? More mutas.
How you can make Zerg have no AA (don't give me the queen crap), until mutas/corruptors? There's just something wrong with this formula.
I says gief zerg Scourges back. That should fix anti-AA anti-drops and a lot of other crap.
Im a terran player but if Cool gets pwned i guess zerg is up.
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hm.. is this rant prepatch or post patch? Because I have seen some great fungal growth use against medivacs and with the tank nerf some Zerg compositions do actually work out quite well. The thing is that what I often see is that Zerg is 2basing against a 2base P/T which is not effective at all.
Furthermore I think it is highly unprofessional to rant like that and going like "this is beyond practice" when practice is what? a few weeks or propably month? I think and hope he know he was overreacting and if you know the asian mentality to grind deeply into sth, this was just a blunder from his site.
Regardless of that, there are balance flaws, of course. What were you thinking of that game being 100% balanced by now? But I strongly disagree with the players being way ahead of Blizzard since the metagame is still not even close to that what is really into the game.
I agree to Sixe's point that all-ins and that stuff is still a sad reaction to the counter-system. The mentality is still "get unit X to counter Y asap" and strongly leaves out micro. Terrans cheese is to strong and absolutely unscoutable, thats true, but if I see Zergs loose in a straight-up being outbased and forgetting the rule of thumb of being one base ahead vs T and P I think they deserved the defeat.
Switching races will be counter productive for a simple fact that the game does not evolve in Zerg metagame anymore. What would solve the statistics then? Making Zerg OP and yay we are drifting away from balance. Balance is fine tuning so finding tweaks and changes that dont screw up everything is actually a LOT of math and a ton of work - whining doesnt make it easier for neither sites, be it Blizzard or the players.
edit: typo
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It's funny how now, that cool said zerg is broken everybody goes "oh yeah zerg is indeed broken...fix it, blizz". Not long ago many people were chuckling at IdrA for complaining about zerg.
Anyways it's really sad that July will maybe play terran and all those great players may switch races.
I think this could snowball out of control, since many lower players try to execute the BOs they see in tournaments. What are you supposed to do against tip-top level timing pushes (altough poorly executed) when there's noone to teach you how to counter it?
Blizzard should really concern all these balance issues really really fast, since they've already let so much time pass instead of using soon(tm) to try to calm players down.
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ah so its not just european and american zergs that are "whining" woooh what a surprise.
The whole "look at the korean zergs" thing is getting both lame and old.
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EPT
