EPTFruitseller (Cool) may change his race in GSL #2 - Page 10
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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SichuanPanda
Canada1542 Posts
On September 24 2010 02:58 kickinhead wrote: Any1 heard from IdrAafterthe Patch? The kid must be raging his brains out. Atm. I really hope Cool, Zenio and Julyzerg will switch races, cuz maybe then Blizzard realizes how fkn stupid they are.... I want them to switch only until such time that Zerg gets fixed - and then go back to Zerg. You're quite right, despite how sad it will be to see such great Zergs not playing Zerg, it really is the only thing at this point that will make the patch team at Blizz clue in to the problem. Something definitely needs to be done because I mean who wants to watch endless TvT, TvP, PvP - this game is supposed to have a lot more than three match-ups. On September 24 2010 03:01 Plexa wrote: It's not really Terran that's the main problem though... sure ZvT is hard, but at the top level ZvP is near impossible O_O. Okay, exaggerating a little bit but its far worse than ZvT - and as Protoss refine the timings on their pushes it's just going to get harder for Zergs. So true Plexa. Everyone is talking about TvZ, but they completely overlook TvP. A late-game Protoss army of Collosus, HTs, Sentries, Stalkers, Voids, and maybe some Archons or Immortal depending on Zerg compositions (i.e. Immortals if Ultras, Archons otherwise) runs circles around, and cuts right through any Zerg late-game army. Ever tried killing massed full upgrade Voids with Corrupters? It ain't happening, even Muta/Corrupter can be stopped easily if the Protoss micros. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12027 Posts
On September 24 2010 02:50 Lomak wrote: Terrans werent bad in the beta they were just fucking stupid. Remember how many people during beta thought siege tanks were worthless? It's because tanks were useless at the start of the beta until they got buffed. Infact, the entire of mech was useless in the beta until they buffed it. | ||
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Zog
57 Posts
On September 24 2010 02:25 superbabosheki wrote: That's stupid. Nobody should be playing SC for a living, maybe as an experience or something, but those who try to make a living off it deserve to get screwd. It's just a game. So are soccer, baseball, etc ... Yet players earn millions of dollars. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Im not saying the matchup would be magically fixed if they did, but I think it would be better. Anyhow, at this point I will take any change that means more zerg players in the ladder - its both my worst (worst winrate tvz when I added all my replays surprisingly!) and my favorite matchup, but you can go an entire day laddering and only play 2-3 zerg players... | ||
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aliciakeys
United States62 Posts
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Pekkz
Norway1505 Posts
When is blizzard going to listen to the top players. The game is not close to balanced, and it wont be until HotS if they dont take some drastic messures. | ||
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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
On September 24 2010 03:01 Plexa wrote: It's not really Terran that's the main problem though... sure ZvT is hard, but at the top level ZvP is near impossible O_O. Okay, exaggerating a little bit but its far worse than ZvT - and as Protoss refine the timings on their pushes it's just going to get harder for Zergs. Yeah, I imagine this is a big deal too - ZvP in Korea is like what, 35% winrate? And then his practice partner is Tester as well, master of the force(fields). FF shuts down zerg early units so hard, it isn't even funny. | ||
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gaizka
United States991 Posts
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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
On September 24 2010 03:02 Liquid`Jinro wrote: TLO playing Zerg is actually really, really sick to watch and everytime it makes me wonder why nobody else plays the way he does ZvT :S I hope we can get a video of him/his screen while playing, he is really impressive mechanically. Im not saying the matchup would be magically fixed if they did, but I think it would be better. Anyhow, at this point I will take any change that means more zerg players in the ladder - its both my worst (worst winrate tvz when I added all my replays surprisingly!) and my favorite matchup, but you can go an entire day laddering and only play 2-3 zerg players... Please convince him to play zerg! I remember seeing a few of his games as zerg when he played random, and he was just wonderful to watch! | ||
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Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo
Germany2959 Posts
Am a ~1400 Diamond Zerg and I still have so. so, so much problems with the variety of options a T/P player has, especially against Zerg. Also I've played about 20 games against the AI to get a really good build order against 4 Warp Gate pushes. I reiterated again and again coming up with something that seems best in my opinion. So then I play ladder vs Protoss and guess what even if I execute my build order perfectly (which isn't too easy) I still have a hard ass time beating the usual 4WG push. Really a hard ass time. Now on top of that there isn't one 4 Warp Gate push. No, there are 200 variations of it. Add the inability to scout to this and you're just begging you take the right guess every game. Or I want to execute my build order but guess what. Protoss blocks me in with 2 pylons/canon tactic. Or he does some early Zealot pressure or... or... or >.< Doesn't look much better against Terran. Edit: And yeah I agree to those saying ZvP is even harder than ZvT. | ||
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torq
United States44 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On September 24 2010 03:03 JinDesu wrote: Yeah, I imagine this is a big deal too - ZvP in Korea is like what, 35% winrate? And then his practice partner is Tester as well, master of the force(fields). FF shuts down zerg early units so hard, it isn't even funny. PvZ lategame is even more impossible now thanks to he -5DMG-nerf on the Ultra. | ||
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dacthehork
United States2000 Posts
Blizzard dropped the ball on the entire zerg race through all phases of the game. It isn't a simple balancing thing as much as the pure fundamentals of the race are screwed. Until they add in more units or fundamentally change some, zerg will be below the other races. | ||
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Hrrrrm
United States2081 Posts
Don't worry about balance or anything that is out of your control. Instead focus on what is and just do what's best for YOU in the long run. Things will even out over time. | ||
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The Touch
United Kingdom667 Posts
But dealing specifically with the complaints, I don't understand the problem with drops. All races have the capability of dropping, and zerg actually have the easiest drops (one simple research and then they can use all their overlords for drops). Also if drops really are a problem and zerg in particular are having a hard time defending them, it strikes me as a problem with the maps (naturals too far from the main) or possibly even the creep mechanic (no creep = too difficult to defend in time), rather than with terran units. If zerg have problems I think the best solution is to buff zerg, rather than nerf other races. I can definitely see the argument, for example, that zerg don't have enough variation in their units in the early game, and I think that has a lot to do with the fact that other races can race to tech far more quickly than zerg can. Terran with 2 buildings and an addon have access to 3 army units; protoss with a gateway and a cybernetics core have access to 3 army units. Zerg needs to either build 3 full tech structures, or 1 tech structure, a base upgrade, and then another tech structure, by which point the other races have not built up a bigger army, but a more diverse and flexible one. I do think that this is generally balanced by the fact that zerg only needs a single tech building and then can morph every available larva into that unit, whereas the other races must build extra buildings if they want more units. I also think that in the mid-late game, zerg seem to be well-balanced. It eems to me that the main problem is that zerg can be too easily pushed to disadvantage in the early game, and that other races teching to air quickly can easily overpower zerg who have had no chance to build up anti-air army, unlike protoss and terran. Perhaps, as others have suggested many times in many places, the hydralisk den should be brought down to tier 1, so that zerg has more diversity of unit types available to them in the early game. I do think zerg needs to have more choice that will enable them to make decisions about how to counter what they can see coming. Bear in mind that this conclusion comes simply from having watched a few games and having no deeper knowledge of the game than that, nor any real skill myself, so take my optinion for what little it's worth. | ||
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Mystgun
Hong Kong311 Posts
On September 24 2010 02:33 Deadlyfish wrote: Everyone is in such a hurry to balance the game perfectly, these things take time. Broodwar was also super imbalanced in the beginning, every single game is. You cant just expect a 2 month old game to be perfectly balanced. But blizzard is moving in the right direction. Slowly maybe, but still. Or do people honestly think that zerg is not going to change in the next 10 years? or even ½ a year? Just stop complaining, play whichever race you want and enjoy the game, the game will be balanced eventually. Maybe in a few months Zerg will dominate. Every single online game i've ever played in my entire life has been unbalanced for the first few months until they sorted it out. Name a game that hasnt been unbalanced for the first few months. Well said. Anyone remember Starfall from early wc3? That skill was so grossly imbalanced it was laughable. That said, I think most of the complaints here are out of frustration from 1) Blizzard's slow response to update 2) Blizzard's failure to acknowledge that TvZ is totally out of of whack. Diving deeper, Zerg just feels like an incomplete race to me and I think this relates to the product development of the SC2 trilogy. Obviously with Wings of Liberty being the first release, Terran got the most attention and its very obvious that they are the most polished race. I'm not sure why they skipped to P next since legacy of the void comes out last, but judging from the SC2 battle reports (TvP was the first match-up released) and the information on the sc2 website for protoss units relative to zerg, I'm pretty sure that development for P started before development for Z. With the somewhat rushed release of SC2, it seems like they just pushed out in an incomplete state and hoped for the best. My theory is that they will use the current Terran line-up as the benchmark, and gradually buff P/Z until they are on equal footing which will take some time. Until then zerg players will just have to play with a race that is about 85% complete. | ||
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some_noob
160 Posts
On September 24 2010 02:51 Logo wrote: Wow is WoW and Starcraft is Starcraft. If you (some people in this thread) can't understand the difference between 'balancing' WoW and balancing Starcraft/Starcraft 2 then I don't know why you're even here posting. WoW has an insane number of things going on with any balance concern. Will it affect farming rates? How will it affect PvE? Will it ruin battlegrounds? Will it imbalance PvP? Is it a change that's fun for all skill levels? How does gear differences affect the change? Will characters now be able to solo/duo stuff we don't want them doing? How will it affect low level characters and their ability to level up? How will it affect each spec? WoW is not intended to be balanced for 1 thing, it's attempting to be reasonably balanced for dozens of different things. By comparison Starcraft is balanced for multiplayer and multiplayer alone. There may be some considerations for formats other than high level 1v1, but Blizzard by and large knows that's what's really important (and have said so). Comparing the balancing efforts of WoW to those of SC/SC2 just makes you look like an idiot. Thanks for your nice input, but you are definitely wrong. Some class in Wow have been ridiculously overpowered for month and tuning them down wouldn't have affected anything else. Remember Invincible locks in season 2? and godlike DKs in season 5 ? There are no excuse for that, they just didn't care. To be honest I have good hope for balance in sc2 because high ranked competition is the core of the game, the game is still fresh out of the box | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 24 2010 03:01 SichuanPanda wrote: I still think Muta/Ling against Protoss is imbalanced in favor of Zerg, but the thing is if you go Muta/Ling there is this giant gaping window of opportunity where any Protoss push will roll the Zerg with minimal effort. It's really quite sad. Even if the Zerg defend that then it's an uphill battle catching up to the Protoss. I want them to switch only until such time that Zerg gets fixed - and then go back to Zerg. You're quite right, despite how sad it will be to see such great Zergs not playing Zerg, it really is the only thing at this point that will make the patch team at Blizz clue in to the problem. Something definitely needs to be done because I mean who wants to watch endless TvT, TvP, PvP - this game is supposed to have a lot more than three match-ups. So true Plexa. Everyone is talking about TvZ, but they completely overlook TvP. A late-game Protoss army of Collosus, HTs, Sentries, Stalkers, Voids, and maybe some Archons or Immortal depending on Zerg compositions (i.e. Immortals if Ultras, Archons otherwise) runs circles around, and cuts right through any Zerg late-game army. Ever tried killing massed full upgrade Voids with Corrupters? It ain't happening, even Muta/Corrupter can be stopped easily if the Protoss micros. On September 24 2010 03:06 The Touch wrote: I don't understand the complaints about drops. All races have the capability of dropping, and zerg actually have the easiest drops (one simple research and then they can use all their overlords for drops). Also if drops really are a problem and zerg in particular are having a hard time defending them, it strikes me as a problem with the maps (naturals too far from the main) or possibly even the creep mechanic (no creep = too difficult to defend in time), rather than with terran units. The issue with drops is that it's just so accessible for a Terran - you're almost always going to be getting medivacs for heal and then you get drop as an added bonus - no upgrade, no extra cost. On top of that, no other race has such an effective unit to drop (the marauder). Sure immortals do more DPS but it's a significant investment - moreso than a marauder drop. That's the issue with drops, they're far easier to do (and dare I say, execute) as a Terran than any other race. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On September 24 2010 03:05 torq wrote: give zerg erffing autocast on larva injection already fxxking blizzard lol. yeah, that'll do the trick.... | ||
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