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On September 24 2010 03:13 Hypatio wrote:
This continued realization of zerg's incapability is so depressing.
I really hope blizz is playing attention because what happens in the pro- and high level gaming scene is a long term liability for the success of the game. If tournaments soon become 85% terran, 13% protoss, and 2% zerg, no one will want to watch, and the impetus for competitive play at lower levels will die a slow death.
It would really be more like 45/45/10 since P is at least as powerful as Terran, but your point stands :p
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is awesome32275 Posts
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On September 24 2010 03:09 billyX333 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 03:05 torq wrote:
give zerg erffing autocast on larva injection already fxxking blizzard ...a lack of larva is not the problem as a zerg player, i dont want this... would not help me anyways
i never said lack of larva is the problem, its the apm and mind you can free up by not having to worry about keep injecting every minute.
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On September 24 2010 03:12 asianinvasian wrote:
Hydra infestor against terran. Try it.
Try playing against Tester.
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I'm convinced that lurkers will fix many of Zerg's problems. Zerg problems don't lie just in stats, but in unit diversity. Yes you can give every unit plus 1000 attack and make Zerg good but that's just imbalancing one side of the game to make up for an unrelated, unfixed problem. And it still doesn't fix the staleness of Zerg (unless TLO is playing and using infestors, but come on we all know most of the time it's pretty boring). I believe Zerg won't fully come into their own until the expansions come out and include new units, but that would be very sad for SC2 competition in the next couple years if true.
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On September 24 2010 03:07 Plexa wrote:
I still think Muta/Ling against Protoss is imbalanced in favor of Zerg, but the thing is if you go Muta/Ling there is this giant gaping window of opportunity where any Protoss push will roll the Zerg with minimal effort. It's really quite sad. Even if the Zerg defend that then it's an uphill battle catching up to the Protoss.
I don't see how Muta/ling is really viable.
Muta / Ling means you survived a 4 WG push in the first place which is only possible on few maps if you don't also get roaches (+heavy spine crawlers). And yeah that means you'll hardly have any income advantage.
And then... Stalkers and even worse, Phoenixes shit all over Mutas. So do HTs later on. Archons and Sentries add up too. I mean, I don't see Mutas being terrible effective unless you perhaps have a huge economy advantage when you're already going for them.
Also, ever played against a Toss simply going mass Blink Stalkers then? I don't know how you could possibly deal with that fast enough. It completely shuts down harass, allows the Toss to jump into your base smiling at your Spinecrawlers and yeh... then what? Lings against Blink Stalkers do as much as Mutas against Blink Stalkers... which isn't a lot.
I lately go with heavy ground (even Hydras) for the most of the time, hoping to get my tier 3 Units before he got too many Collossi + the usual ball.
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is awesome32275 Posts
On September 24 2010 03:12 billyX333 wrote:
look at julyzerg's stats and win% on ladder, then look at nada's
then realize julyzerg has almost 4x the experience
then cry
Source?
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On September 24 2010 03:16 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 03:12 billyX333 wrote:
look at julyzerg's stats and win% on ladder, then look at nada's
then realize julyzerg has almost 4x the experience
then cry Source?
His number of games i guess.
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This is just a thought, but basically protoss/terran have early game scouting options at a cost (scan/ floating buildings/hallucination pheonix / reaper) etc.
Zerg has to sack an overlord which is usually ineffective against better players who will just hide their buildings farther / kill with marines.
Move the overseer tech up but take away the corruption/changeling type abilities until lair.
Then zerg will have some option to scout before well after lair tech like the other races.
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On September 24 2010 02:39 Deadlyfish wrote:
People expect blizzard to balance out a massive online game within a few months, when new strategies are showing up every day. It's a really hard thing to do, and it takes time.
Yeah, on the Terran side, new strategies are popping up every day. On the Zerg side... not so much. They've pretty much exhausted everything they can do.
But seriously, name a game that was balanced right from the beginning. Any online game.
We don't expect them to instantly balance the whole game, but we expect them to do more than increase the building times of some units and nerf the damage of another unit to an amount which effectively changes too few about the matchup (tanks still own everything but ultras and air units). And most important of all, we expect them to not not need 2 months for those kind of crappy changes.
They need to change something about the core mechanics of Zerg to make it feel really swarmy again. Creep tumors need a major buff or need to be changed. It can't be that I'm expanding creep for 15 minutes and the player attack-moves it all away in 30 seconds. Hydras need a major buff in both damage and speed, and also durability (they really shouldn't be light). Overlords need a speed buff to make T1 scouting less luck dependend. Overseers need to be waaaayyy faster. Teching times need to be shorter. Static defense needs to be way stronger. Nydus worms need to cost much less (the worms themselves shouldn't cost gas at all. That's what makes them useless in the first place, they cost too much gas. )
But of course they won't do any of that. So they simply play around with unit stats. Here 5 seconds more build time. Here 2 damage less, there 50 minerals more build cost.
But all of that will change nothing about the fact that a Zerg just needs much, much much much more skill than both Protoss and Terran. And when you come close to the skill gap, it simply isn't possible anymore to "outskill" other players.
Plus of course any of that would cause a huge outrage in the Terran and Protoss community. Look how all of them cry right now because they actually have to pay attention to their expansions. Clearly it requires too much apm to move your workers away from the minerals when an Ultralisk is attacking the CC/Nexus. Never mind the fact that ultras can't plant themselves on cliffs and shoot away your workers and your CC/Nexus from up there. And never mind the fact you can feel the growth of your beard after you've reached T3 with Zerg. Plus of course we can't use 8 clicks to send 4 invisible ultras to 4 bases and wipe out their entire economy if they don't deal with them within 10 seconds. Imagine how it would be if they would actually have to react to stuff and pay more attention to other things. If they had to bother with real scouting around the map, with map control. It would be insane.
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On September 24 2010 03:15 torq wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 03:09 billyX333 wrote:On September 24 2010 03:05 torq wrote:
give zerg erffing autocast on larva injection already fxxking blizzard ...a lack of larva is not the problem as a zerg player, i dont want this... would not help me anyways i never said lack of larva is the problem, its the apm and mind you can free up by not having to worry about keep injecting every minute.
at pro level play that isnt a problem. if pros are whining that means they've experienced games where they've played flawlessly and lost. probably reviewed many of their replays and still saw few flaws as they probably have reason for every single decision made
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from my experience, if you start with gateway pressure and continue with more harass and pressure all game then zerg will never get the opportunity to go muta/ling. Then you can get colossi and maul the hydras you forced him to make...
so yeah even if muta/ling is OP like people are saying i never even encounter it because i force zerg to go roach/hydra
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On September 24 2010 03:07 AJMcSpiffy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 03:02 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
TLO playing Zerg is actually really, really sick to watch and everytime it makes me wonder why nobody else plays the way he does ZvT :S I hope we can get a video of him/his screen while playing, he is really impressive mechanically.
TLO's Zerg play is what made me stay with them as my race. I was so sad when he announced he was switching to Terran. He should play some showmatches at least, but I wish he would go into tournaments with Zerg.
Yeah I agree
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@Jinro can he also play ZvP or is he just a ZvT player?
Right now I would like to see a big open letter to Blizzard signed by the likes of Julyzerg, Cool, Idra, Check, Dimaga, Darkforce etc. cause I feel that the balance situation won`t neccesarily change for a long time. I mean just look at WC3´s history of balance (mass-AoW in RoC, Beastmaster, Tower-Tank or Blademaster) and they reacted so frickin`slow. The thing is that in order for SC2 to really surpass a game like CS1.6 and to become a worldwide phenomenon theTerran dominance is really detrimental. It is not seldom the case that people quit watching a tourny stream once the semi finals consists of 4 Ts and long term many viéwers that are not super active players themselves will just lose interest.
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On September 24 2010 03:16 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 03:12 billyX333 wrote:
look at julyzerg's stats and win% on ladder, then look at nada's
then realize julyzerg has almost 4x the experience
then cry Source?
its an assumption based on when they switched and games played
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On September 24 2010 03:13 guldurkhand wrote:
well the biggest problem is that this game isn't stable, if they buff zerg too much in early game zerg has an even bigger advantage in the later stages of the game. You also want to use every unit, which is done very good in all non mirror matchups(except tvt)
IMO, this may be easily dealt with by utilizing the quasi-linear tech tree that zerg has through dependence on hatch-lair-hive. On the other hand, I don't suppose that fixing zerg is as simple as an analogue to the seige tank nerf. I strongly suspect that fixing zerg in a balanced manner will involve one or two major tweaks (re: race mechanics and unit capabilities) in addition to quite a number of much smaller changes related to unit costs, creep mechanics, unit speeds, research costs, production times, etc.
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On September 24 2010 03:16 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 03:12 billyX333 wrote:
look at julyzerg's stats and win% on ladder, then look at nada's
then realize julyzerg has almost 4x the experience
then cry Source?
Since when was Nada's ladder been discovered?
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Below is what I think will be the final nail in the coffin for Blizzard.
As soon as all the pro Zergs switch to other races, and Blizzard sees no professional Zerg play anymore, then they will realize, O.K., we messed up. Until then, Blizzard will keep making excuses to not improve Zerg.
I think the biggest fix would be to switch the Hydralisk and the Roach. I know this has been suggested many times, but it would seriously work. It would be better to have a few Hydras (with slightly different stats of course) at the Hatchery tech level than a measly Queen. All the Queen is- just a bad T1 AA unit.
Plus, although Queen rushes would happen again, the speed of the Queen off creep should be fast again, like in the early beta, so that Zerg could actually have a healer unit on the field. The fix obviously would be to keep the Queen speed (off-creep) as is, and then have a speed upgrade available at the Lair. Just make Pneumatized Carapace +speed for both Overlords and Queens.
This would not be as drastic a change as everyone thinks. It would simply make Zerg on par with the other races at the pro level of play. (T-marines, P-stalkers, Z-??? <- obviously Hydras)
It just makes sense. Right now, as Zerg is, you have to fast tech to Hydra, and if the army is anti-Hydra, you have to make Roaches to take the hits and soften up the army a bit while your Hydras are in the back spiking away.
But it's hard to do that early.
So, since its better to have Hydras first, Blizzard should do what they can to make Hydras a balanced T1 unit.
Then, because Roaches would be higher tech now, they should be fast by default, and Glial Reconstitution should increase their speed while burrowed.
Just my ideas, but I think they would work. Until then, I fear that in the future people new to SC2 watching the tournaments won't even realize the Zerg race exists anymore.
"So it's a human vs advanced alien game right? And like, you get to pick which one you want to be? Cool! Wouldn't it be awesome if there were like, a third race?"
"There is."
"Wha?! No wai! How come I've never seen it?"
"Well, the pros abandoned it because they are paid when they win. The race was so disadvantaged that their 10% win rates could not bring bread to the table. But don't worry, Blizzard now sees their mistake, and for the sake of SC2, will try to fix it."
"Gosh what were they thinking?"
"They gave much thought into it, but alas made it too different from SC1, while trying to make it the same as SC1. Thus, the imbalances occurred."
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Why do care about balance when we have such new cute icons.
I hope they will change more icons and make them animated. Starcraft 2 gonna perfect game! 
On topic: was this interview made post patch 1.1?
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Wow, I figured it out!
Allow Queen to be built from morphing hatches, low the build time on lair upgrade by 30%.
Fixed!
They can then hit hydra/infestor/nydus/overseer and other upgrades quicker letting them be on even footing with options as the other races.
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EPT
