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Ultras vs Repaired PF - Page 21

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Grebliv
Profile Joined May 2006
Iceland800 Posts
September 22 2010 01:39 GMT
#401
new zerg strat, make a hatchery inside your opponents army and then have the ultras attack that.
ESV Mapmaking!
PhatCop
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia70 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-22 01:39:54
September 22 2010 01:39 GMT
#402
A lot of people fail to realise that there are two separate issues with this particular video.

1) The discrepancy between the attack animation and actual attack damage range
2) Balance of the change

I think most people can agree that point 1 is a legitimate issue. Point 2 is up for interpretation.

Interestingly, the post from Blizzard doesn't say which issue they are addressing. Perhaps the resulting balance change is aligned with their design intent, and they will give ultras bigger tusks that shoots lasers when splashing to reflect the larger area of effect!
Fries
Profile Joined August 2010
United States124 Posts
September 22 2010 01:42 GMT
#403
Didn't Blizzard always say because of the splash this should be viewed as a buff to Ultras? A lot of people scoffed at that at first, but they sure look scary now!

Anyway, my main point is I think the benefit is intended, they just didn't apparently realize just how good the splash would be on the planetary fortress. Just from the eyeball test, to me it seems like the splash hitting the half of the fortress the ultra is on seems about right.
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
September 22 2010 01:44 GMT
#404
On September 22 2010 10:06 Genome852 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 22 2010 10:06 gospelwut wrote:
This clearly seems like a bug.

It's already been confirmed as one.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/627980105


Noooooooooooooooooooooooo
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Kal_rA
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2925 Posts
September 22 2010 01:44 GMT
#405
i loved the headbutt animation... they just looked hilarious haha

gonna miss that
Jaedong.
lololol
Profile Joined February 2006
5198 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-22 01:51:03
September 22 2010 01:48 GMT
#406
On September 22 2010 10:33 Nilrem wrote:
Alroght, I thought I would show you all this. I wanted to test the splash, so I measured it in terms of workers. From what I saw, the splash damage is between 3 to 4w (the "w" symbolizing worker). This is not quite astounding to see such range. So it is 3-4w from the PF itself.

I wanted to test it this way since we have all seen the videos of large numbers and surround. I wanted to show with a linear line, just how many lines of workers are killed.

[image loading]



It's a radius of 2 + the radius of the targeted unit and scvs have a diamater of 0.75, so the splash radius is enough for an outwards line of 3 back to back scvs to get hit by the splash.
It hit 4 in one direction, because they weren't in a straight outward line(and a discrepancy of 0.25 is enough to hit 4, which is pretty small).
I'll call Nada.
.Soul
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada81 Posts
September 22 2010 01:49 GMT
#407
Scary....
omnigol
Profile Joined April 2008
United States166 Posts
September 22 2010 01:55 GMT
#408
On September 22 2010 10:27 VanGarde wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 22 2010 10:14 Devlin wrote:
On September 22 2010 09:49 VanGarde wrote:
On September 22 2010 09:44 tacrats wrote:
On September 22 2010 09:39 VanGarde wrote:
Here are some numbers I'd like everyone to remember before you make statements about Planetary Fortress cost efficiency.

The PF costs 550 minerals and 150 gas AND 270 minerals every 87 seconds.

If you had turned your PF into an OC instead you would if you used every 50 energy on MULE had a MULE every 1 minute and 27 seconds. Lets say one and a half minute for simplicity.

So after just 3 minutes of play the PF has actually costed you 1090/150.
After 6 minutes 1630/150
After 12 minutes 2710/150

Terran player realize this added virtual cost and it is why it is a tough decision every time you decide between an OC and a PF. But reading threads like this makes me think that most zerg players might not quite grasp this.

This is why the PF HAS to be repairable. Because otherwise it is just not worth it cost for cost.


If i didnt turn my 14 drone into a pool, he could have made me 2k minerals over the course of the game!

Protip: people wouldnt get a PF if there wasnt a reason to, regardless of how expensive it is.


Yes, that is also true. The drone used to make a zerg building is lost income. Ofcourse both of you who are using this is an example are just missing the point. When you make a building from a drone you are not at a fork in the road where you choose between two options that can be weighed against each other. You HAVE to make a pool obviously and thus that logic does not apply to this example.

A correct example would be the decision between making a spine crawler and not, you loose income over time by making a spine crawler, thus it is a loss to make one, a loss that should be avoided unless absolutely necessary.

Ofcourse it is still not a very related example because the difference in scale is so far off. The income we are talking about when choosing between OC and PF are in scales way way above the cost of a spine crawler.

Protip: Good terran players will avoid getting a PF. It is a defeat in itself to have to build a PF at an expansion.


The math logic in your previous post just doesn't work. You build a Planetary Fortress. You don't build an Orbital Command. OCs don't "give" you minerals, they accelerate the income rate, therefore you don't "lose" minerals by going PF over OC.

Semantics, the MULE is a worker. SCV's, probles and drones do not "give" you minerals either. As I said before you don't "lose" minerals by having all your workers killed by a hellion drop either. But you loose income over time. Having a planetary fortress is financially as if you had and oc but never called down MULE's.

Seriously is this concept really so hard for people to grasp?

You're just using growth over time numbers to justify the ridiculousness of PF with repairing SCVs. Use common sense. PFs can replace entire ground armies in certain defensive situations, yes they're still a viable choice, even when jackasses like you play with income-over-time numbers.
Nilrem
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3684 Posts
September 22 2010 01:56 GMT
#409
On September 22 2010 10:48 lololol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 22 2010 10:33 Nilrem wrote:
Alroght, I thought I would show you all this. I wanted to test the splash, so I measured it in terms of workers. From what I saw, the splash damage is between 3 to 4w (the "w" symbolizing worker). This is not quite astounding to see such range. So it is 3-4w from the PF itself.

I wanted to test it this way since we have all seen the videos of large numbers and surround. I wanted to show with a linear line, just how many lines of workers are killed.

[image loading]



It's a radius of 2 + the radius of the targeted unit and scvs have a diamater of 0.75, so the splash radius is enough for an outwards line of 3 back to back scvs to get hit by the splash.
It hit 4 in one direction, because they weren't in a straight outward line(and a discrepancy of 0.25 is enough to hit 4, which is pretty small).


True true, but alas. I was merely showing the radius and potentially just how many can get killed. Sadly, this is a bug, which will be fixed in a future patch.
Meepo Haters gonna Hate. https://twitter.com/KazeNilrem (@KazeNilrem)
Devlin
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden91 Posts
September 22 2010 01:57 GMT
#410
On September 22 2010 10:27 VanGarde wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 22 2010 10:14 Devlin wrote:
On September 22 2010 09:49 VanGarde wrote:
On September 22 2010 09:44 tacrats wrote:
On September 22 2010 09:39 VanGarde wrote:
Here are some numbers I'd like everyone to remember before you make statements about Planetary Fortress cost efficiency.

The PF costs 550 minerals and 150 gas AND 270 minerals every 87 seconds.

If you had turned your PF into an OC instead you would if you used every 50 energy on MULE had a MULE every 1 minute and 27 seconds. Lets say one and a half minute for simplicity.

So after just 3 minutes of play the PF has actually costed you 1090/150.
After 6 minutes 1630/150
After 12 minutes 2710/150

Terran player realize this added virtual cost and it is why it is a tough decision every time you decide between an OC and a PF. But reading threads like this makes me think that most zerg players might not quite grasp this.

This is why the PF HAS to be repairable. Because otherwise it is just not worth it cost for cost.


If i didnt turn my 14 drone into a pool, he could have made me 2k minerals over the course of the game!

Protip: people wouldnt get a PF if there wasnt a reason to, regardless of how expensive it is.


Yes, that is also true. The drone used to make a zerg building is lost income. Ofcourse both of you who are using this is an example are just missing the point. When you make a building from a drone you are not at a fork in the road where you choose between two options that can be weighed against each other. You HAVE to make a pool obviously and thus that logic does not apply to this example.

A correct example would be the decision between making a spine crawler and not, you loose income over time by making a spine crawler, thus it is a loss to make one, a loss that should be avoided unless absolutely necessary.

Ofcourse it is still not a very related example because the difference in scale is so far off. The income we are talking about when choosing between OC and PF are in scales way way above the cost of a spine crawler.

Protip: Good terran players will avoid getting a PF. It is a defeat in itself to have to build a PF at an expansion.


The math logic in your previous post just doesn't work. You build a Planetary Fortress. You don't build an Orbital Command. OCs don't "give" you minerals, they accelerate the income rate, therefore you don't "lose" minerals by going PF over OC.

Semantics, the MULE is a worker. SCV's, probles and drones do not "give" you minerals either. As I said before you don't "lose" minerals by having all your workers killed by a hellion drop either. But you loose income over time. Having a planetary fortress is financially as if you had and oc but never called down MULE's.

Seriously is this concept really so hard for people to grasp?


So having to rebuild something does not result in a loss of minerals? OK.

Without that PF you most likely wouldn't have that expansion up in the first place, let alone for 12 minutes like in your little math genius calculations there. There is a reason why people get PF over OC on their less secure expansions, and to great effect.

Since you apparently didn't intend on reading my entire post, how about this comparison instead: as Zerg, I have to constantly choose between drones and army. Thank you.
Stop acting like a victim, the PF is a great option for you, given the right circumstances. I doubt you'll hear people say otherwise.

And also, stop trying to sound so smug. Makes you look like an ass.
"if someone puts a ling under a lifted cc the terran can no longer land and loses"
Sanguinarius
Profile Joined January 2010
United States3427 Posts
September 22 2010 01:59 GMT
#411
ok, that might be a little bit too strong.
Your strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others -Heart of Darkness
VanGarde
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden755 Posts
September 22 2010 01:59 GMT
#412
On September 22 2010 10:55 omnigol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 22 2010 10:27 VanGarde wrote:
On September 22 2010 10:14 Devlin wrote:
On September 22 2010 09:49 VanGarde wrote:
On September 22 2010 09:44 tacrats wrote:
On September 22 2010 09:39 VanGarde wrote:
Here are some numbers I'd like everyone to remember before you make statements about Planetary Fortress cost efficiency.

The PF costs 550 minerals and 150 gas AND 270 minerals every 87 seconds.

If you had turned your PF into an OC instead you would if you used every 50 energy on MULE had a MULE every 1 minute and 27 seconds. Lets say one and a half minute for simplicity.

So after just 3 minutes of play the PF has actually costed you 1090/150.
After 6 minutes 1630/150
After 12 minutes 2710/150

Terran player realize this added virtual cost and it is why it is a tough decision every time you decide between an OC and a PF. But reading threads like this makes me think that most zerg players might not quite grasp this.

This is why the PF HAS to be repairable. Because otherwise it is just not worth it cost for cost.


If i didnt turn my 14 drone into a pool, he could have made me 2k minerals over the course of the game!

Protip: people wouldnt get a PF if there wasnt a reason to, regardless of how expensive it is.


Yes, that is also true. The drone used to make a zerg building is lost income. Ofcourse both of you who are using this is an example are just missing the point. When you make a building from a drone you are not at a fork in the road where you choose between two options that can be weighed against each other. You HAVE to make a pool obviously and thus that logic does not apply to this example.

A correct example would be the decision between making a spine crawler and not, you loose income over time by making a spine crawler, thus it is a loss to make one, a loss that should be avoided unless absolutely necessary.

Ofcourse it is still not a very related example because the difference in scale is so far off. The income we are talking about when choosing between OC and PF are in scales way way above the cost of a spine crawler.

Protip: Good terran players will avoid getting a PF. It is a defeat in itself to have to build a PF at an expansion.


The math logic in your previous post just doesn't work. You build a Planetary Fortress. You don't build an Orbital Command. OCs don't "give" you minerals, they accelerate the income rate, therefore you don't "lose" minerals by going PF over OC.

Semantics, the MULE is a worker. SCV's, probles and drones do not "give" you minerals either. As I said before you don't "lose" minerals by having all your workers killed by a hellion drop either. But you loose income over time. Having a planetary fortress is financially as if you had and oc but never called down MULE's.

Seriously is this concept really so hard for people to grasp?

You're just using growth over time numbers to justify the ridiculousness of PF with repairing SCVs. Use common sense. PFs can replace entire ground armies in certain defensive situations, yes they're still a viable choice, even when jackasses like you play with income-over-time numbers.


Growth over time is the entire foundation of Starcraft 2. It is the backbone of the game.

Also I am not justifying anything I started off by calmly pointing out to people why the PF does in fact cost you more resources than just what it takes to build it on the spot, and thus further explained why it need to be repairable. I did not say how repairable or anything regarding balance, just that it has to actually be possible to repair it in combat or else it stops being worth the cost.

Ofcourse oneeyed people who rage their way into these threads with red eyes seeing only talk of nerfs and balance will read what they want into posts. All I have said is that getting a PF has a larger impact than just being a one time cost and apparently it has been useful because half the people in here don't even understand how starcraft economy works.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
VanGarde
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden755 Posts
September 22 2010 02:02 GMT
#413
On September 22 2010 10:57 Devlin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 22 2010 10:27 VanGarde wrote:
On September 22 2010 10:14 Devlin wrote:
On September 22 2010 09:49 VanGarde wrote:
On September 22 2010 09:44 tacrats wrote:
On September 22 2010 09:39 VanGarde wrote:
Here are some numbers I'd like everyone to remember before you make statements about Planetary Fortress cost efficiency.

The PF costs 550 minerals and 150 gas AND 270 minerals every 87 seconds.

If you had turned your PF into an OC instead you would if you used every 50 energy on MULE had a MULE every 1 minute and 27 seconds. Lets say one and a half minute for simplicity.

So after just 3 minutes of play the PF has actually costed you 1090/150.
After 6 minutes 1630/150
After 12 minutes 2710/150

Terran player realize this added virtual cost and it is why it is a tough decision every time you decide between an OC and a PF. But reading threads like this makes me think that most zerg players might not quite grasp this.

This is why the PF HAS to be repairable. Because otherwise it is just not worth it cost for cost.


If i didnt turn my 14 drone into a pool, he could have made me 2k minerals over the course of the game!

Protip: people wouldnt get a PF if there wasnt a reason to, regardless of how expensive it is.


Yes, that is also true. The drone used to make a zerg building is lost income. Ofcourse both of you who are using this is an example are just missing the point. When you make a building from a drone you are not at a fork in the road where you choose between two options that can be weighed against each other. You HAVE to make a pool obviously and thus that logic does not apply to this example.

A correct example would be the decision between making a spine crawler and not, you loose income over time by making a spine crawler, thus it is a loss to make one, a loss that should be avoided unless absolutely necessary.

Ofcourse it is still not a very related example because the difference in scale is so far off. The income we are talking about when choosing between OC and PF are in scales way way above the cost of a spine crawler.

Protip: Good terran players will avoid getting a PF. It is a defeat in itself to have to build a PF at an expansion.


The math logic in your previous post just doesn't work. You build a Planetary Fortress. You don't build an Orbital Command. OCs don't "give" you minerals, they accelerate the income rate, therefore you don't "lose" minerals by going PF over OC.

Semantics, the MULE is a worker. SCV's, probles and drones do not "give" you minerals either. As I said before you don't "lose" minerals by having all your workers killed by a hellion drop either. But you loose income over time. Having a planetary fortress is financially as if you had and oc but never called down MULE's.

Seriously is this concept really so hard for people to grasp?


So having to rebuild something does not result in a loss of minerals? OK.

Without that PF you most likely wouldn't have that expansion up in the first place, let alone for 12 minutes like in your little math genius calculations there. There is a reason why people get PF over OC on their less secure expansions, and to great effect.

Since you apparently didn't intend on reading my entire post, how about this comparison instead: as Zerg, I have to constantly choose between drones and army. Thank you.
Stop acting like a victim, the PF is a great option for you, given the right circumstances. I doubt you'll hear people say otherwise.

And also, stop trying to sound so smug. Makes you look like an ass.


I am coming across as smug because I am just objectively explaining very obvious and basic mechanics without defending or taking any kind of stance on balance yet you and a lot of other people are apparently a bit too eager to make everything into a nerfbat debate that you just assume that I am trying to justify some generic random "omg this is imba HURR" argument that litters these forums. I don't do that, I am explaining how the PF works.

Stop reading between the lines and you will see that I have said nothing about the balance of the PF or any situational stuff. Just stating the fact that it does not cost 550/150 and because of its cost over time it has to be repairable.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
jamesr12
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1549 Posts
September 22 2010 02:03 GMT
#414
haha look helarious, they have to do something about it I am not going to talk balence because I am bad, but they have to do something because it looks stupid
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306479
Moonling
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States987 Posts
September 22 2010 02:06 GMT
#415
best change Blizzard has done yet so far imo
1% of koreans control 99% of starcraft winnings. #occupykorea.
Uhh Negative
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1090 Posts
September 22 2010 02:10 GMT
#416
So this is a bug, but some SCVs should still die while repairing once they patch this, right? Just less range?
xiyuema
Profile Joined August 2009
87 Posts
September 22 2010 02:13 GMT
#417
i dont see why the scvs on the other side of the building get affect by the splash......
Far out GG
kawazu
Profile Joined May 2010
United States111 Posts
September 22 2010 02:14 GMT
#418
It's drawing the area off the structure rather than the ultralisk.

They are most definately going to patch this. It's like the ultras attack became psionic storm or something.
After they patch this scvs will only die if they are near where the ultra is attacking.
Deathstar
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
9150 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-22 02:15:47
September 22 2010 02:15 GMT
#419
On September 22 2010 10:33 Nilrem wrote:
Alroght, I thought I would show you all this. I wanted to test the splash, so I measured it in terms of workers. From what I saw, the splash damage is between 3 to 4w (the "w" symbolizing worker). This is not quite astounding to see such range. So it is 3-4w from the PF itself.

I wanted to test it this way since we have all seen the videos of large numbers and surround. I wanted to show with a linear line, just how many lines of workers are killed.

[image loading]



The ultralisks are killing scvs with an invisible force. There needs to be a hotfix fast, not promises of a patch in the distant future.
rip passion
MrCon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
France29748 Posts
September 22 2010 02:16 GMT
#420
On September 22 2010 11:10 Uhh Negative wrote:
So this is a bug, but some SCVs should still die while repairing once they patch this, right? Just less range?

yeah, and perhaps not scv in the other side of the building and not another building that don't even touch the attacked one =)
I guess the splash should come from the front of the ultra and not the center of the building.
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