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On September 21 2010 22:01 peachsncream wrote:
IMO, the problem is there is a ton of players with X amount of points in diamond that makes them think they are top tier and understand the game or even good when in reality they are pretty awful. You might aswell leave it be. Odds are all the top players will have each others msn and discuss stuff there
Yea thats true, for example, some players with 1400+ are 4 gating all in toss players. BUT the point is that it will weed out 90% of all the nonsense in the strategy section. Sure there will still be some horrible posts, but there will also be a huge improvement.
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On September 21 2010 22:05 Reubachi wrote:
Well yeah I know most golds think they're diamond, however there's no way to weed them out without screwing a lot of people. The best thing to do wod be what someone else said and to just create a new sub forum, and let people vote on who gets in based on renown.
That'd be me. We can name the process after me! Or maybe it has a name already..democ-something or other. We tried it for a while in the US before we sold the government to big business.
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The problem with the idea is that you can get around it and it wont stop idiots posting.
Do you even read the AJ forums? Did you read the AJ forums during S5 when heroic DK/Pally teams roflstomped anyone and posted things along the similar line of "L2P MAN LOLOLOLOL /TRLL".
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Purely thinking about the implementation of such a plan, requiring someone to be in diamond at xxxx points is problematic. As others have shown, the bonus pool inflation of scores would eventually allow any diamond player to post in this sub-forum.
Not to be discouraging, if TL were to do this, I have two ideas. First, I think it'd have to be some kind of invitational basis. Second, perhaps another of blizzard's skill measurements can be used -- the players who hit blizzards top 200 are allowed in or only those players in the "proleague" that's supposed to be coming.
Honestly, I don't know if I agree with the idea... I can see how people think its elitist and others think it's allowing for good high-level discussion, but I voted for it and suppose its worth a shot. It's not like it couldn't be taken down if it doesn't work out.
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On September 21 2010 15:33 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 15:16 -orb- wrote:On September 21 2010 15:14 BadWithNames wrote:
In my experience the "pro" only forum doesn't work. In order to have successful communication it's up to the whole of the community to stop and think about what they post. Everyone has to hold themselves to a high standard of quality, and when that standard of quality isn't met the mods should step in and remind everyone.
Why does it start at the ground up? Because making a place where the "shitty threads" theoretically can't be posted isn't going to stop the shit threads from being posted elsewhere, in the end you're treating the symptoms and not the problem. What's "your experience?" This system worked absolute wonders for arenajunkies You're joking right? I've probably said this a million times these past 2 days. Arena Junkies is absolute SHIT. Have you ever even been on Arenajunkies? The only reason that anyone goes on Arenajunkies is either to troll or for drama. There is 0 serious discussion. In S1-S2 arenajunkies was a nice place, after that it just got out of control. See the thing is, being good at a video game doesnt mean anything. You can be mentally handicaped and still be good at Sc2/WoW. BadWithNames was actually spot on. You cant just make an "elite" forum and just hope that it will keep the bad posts away, because trust me it wont.
I'll have to agree. Arenajunkies is absolutely shit. But that's because they have crappy moderation and they don't care. TL doesn't have to be like this.
Plus their rating requirements currently, like 2400 I believe, is a joke to attain.
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On September 21 2010 22:08 Cranberries wrote:
The problem with the idea is that you can get around it and it wont stop idiots posting.
Do you even read the AJ forums? Did you read the AJ forums during S5 when heroic DK/Pally teams roflstomped anyone and posted things along the similar line of "L2P MAN LOLOLOLOL /TRLL".
WIth mod and community based choices, there will be a limited selection of people in there. Anyone trolling will be obvious very fast, and lose their access. We already know TL mods are quick to notice and take action, why would this be any different, except maybe MORE heavily moderated.
The community that would allow this to happen would not allow trolls to live long their. I just saw a patch 1.1 troll post that got locked and the user temp banned before I could even type a response and hit reply.
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The obvious problem with this is that all the good players will stop posting in the normal strategy forum, so that will deteriorate even further and it'll be harder for new players to get good advice. I would much prefer if we somehow managed to get the quality in the normal strategy forum back up, but if that's hopeless, then I guess it's a high-level subforum's a good last resort.
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On September 21 2010 22:12 TechDeft wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 22:08 Cranberries wrote:
The problem with the idea is that you can get around it and it wont stop idiots posting.
Do you even read the AJ forums? Did you read the AJ forums during S5 when heroic DK/Pally teams roflstomped anyone and posted things along the similar line of "L2P MAN LOLOLOLOL /TRLL". WIth mod and community based choices, there will be a limited selection of people in there. Anyone trolling will be obvious very fast, and lose their access. We already know TL mods are quick to notice and take action, why would this be any different, except maybe MORE heavily moderated. The community that would allow this to happen would not allow trolls to live long their. I just saw a patch 1.1 troll post that got locked and the user temp banned before I could even type a response and hit reply.
Instating communism and autocratic idiocy into a SC2 public forum is bad.
Do you want TL to be hated as much as Elitist Jerks?
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On September 21 2010 22:09 Truenappa wrote:
Purely thinking about the implementation of such a plan, requiring someone to be in diamond at xxxx points is problematic. As others have shown, the bonus pool inflation of scores would eventually allow any diamond player to post in this sub-forum.
Not to be discouraging, if TL were to do this, I have two ideas. First, I think it'd have to be some kind of invitational basis. Second, perhaps another of blizzard's skill measurements can be used -- the players who hit blizzards top 200 are allowed in or only those players in the "proleague" that's supposed to be coming.
Honestly, I don't know if I agree with the idea... I can see how people think its elitist and others think it's allowing for good high-level discussion, but I voted for it and suppose its worth a shot. It's not like it couldn't be taken down if it doesn't work out.
You would need more than top 200 to even have a discussion started in the forum, especially since a lot of players don't even post. I would say top 1000 in the world. Currently the top 1000 ends just below 1400 points.
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On September 21 2010 22:13 Cranberries wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 22:12 TechDeft wrote:On September 21 2010 22:08 Cranberries wrote:
The problem with the idea is that you can get around it and it wont stop idiots posting.
Do you even read the AJ forums? Did you read the AJ forums during S5 when heroic DK/Pally teams roflstomped anyone and posted things along the similar line of "L2P MAN LOLOLOLOL /TRLL". WIth mod and community based choices, there will be a limited selection of people in there. Anyone trolling will be obvious very fast, and lose their access. We already know TL mods are quick to notice and take action, why would this be any different, except maybe MORE heavily moderated. The community that would allow this to happen would not allow trolls to live long their. I just saw a patch 1.1 troll post that got locked and the user temp banned before I could even type a response and hit reply. Instating communism and autocratic idiocy into a SC2 public forum is bad. Do you want TL to be hated as much as Elitist Jerks?
?? TL is already well known for being quick to ban 'tards.
Communism? Communism is shared wealth and responsibility, with communal ownership. Has nothing to do with this.
Autocracy? In an autocratic government, ONE person has the power.
TL is probably closest to a Republic under military control. And they are fair about it. It is THEIR playground, don't forget.
Learn what you are talking about before you start throwing "big" words around to try and sound smart.
And Elitist Jerks is still a good website to go to, if you want up to date and thorough knowledge. It doesn't bother me how rude they are to the folks that are foolish, it maintains a higher level of quality in the discussions.
I'm learning. If I wanna talk to other people who are learning, I go to wow.com/TL main SC2 forums. If I wanna read what the "experts" are talking about, I go to EJ/Proposed TL subforum.
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I like the way TL.net now, but i wouldn't mind seeing some pro-gamer discussion threads of strategies without interference. Im not quite sure why there would be a no public read forum though, team liquid promotes becoming a better SC player...not keeping it a secret. Im not super great at SC2 but i still like to learn the game and get better. Im not terrible either (imo) but that doesnt mean i want to try to discuss balance and strategy with a pro-gamer
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and how do you set the points in 3 months? Because of the bonus points inflation there will be all diamondplayers aboive 1200. You just have to wait long enough.
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On September 21 2010 23:33 ArdentZeal wrote:
and how do you set the points in 3 months? Because of the bonus points inflation there will be all diamondplayers aboive 1200. You just have to wait long enough.
Why is everyone so hung up on points? Points should have nothing to do with it already. Lots of points CAN indicate a good player, but it can also indicate a player with time to grind. And even some talented players might not be able to offer anything to meaningful discussion. No, these people should be chosen.
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i would totaly love see this happen.
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On September 21 2010 22:25 TechDeft wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 22:13 Cranberries wrote:On September 21 2010 22:12 TechDeft wrote:On September 21 2010 22:08 Cranberries wrote:
The problem with the idea is that you can get around it and it wont stop idiots posting.
Do you even read the AJ forums? Did you read the AJ forums during S5 when heroic DK/Pally teams roflstomped anyone and posted things along the similar line of "L2P MAN LOLOLOLOL /TRLL". WIth mod and community based choices, there will be a limited selection of people in there. Anyone trolling will be obvious very fast, and lose their access. We already know TL mods are quick to notice and take action, why would this be any different, except maybe MORE heavily moderated. The community that would allow this to happen would not allow trolls to live long their. I just saw a patch 1.1 troll post that got locked and the user temp banned before I could even type a response and hit reply. Instating communism and autocratic idiocy into a SC2 public forum is bad. Do you want TL to be hated as much as Elitist Jerks? ?? TL is already well known for being quick to ban 'tards. Communism? Communism is shared wealth and responsibility, with communal ownership. Has nothing to do with this. Autocracy? In an autocratic government, ONE person has the power. TL is probably closest to a Republic under military control. And they are fair about it. It is THEIR playground, don't forget. Learn what you are talking about before you start throwing "big" words around to try and sound smart. And Elitist Jerks is still a good website to go to, if you want up to date and thorough knowledge. It doesn't bother me how rude they are to the folks that are foolish, it maintains a higher level of quality in the discussions. I'm learning. If I wanna talk to other people who are learning, I go to wow.com/TL main SC2 forums. If I wanna read what the "experts" are talking about, I go to EJ/Proposed TL subforum.
Dont start with Cranberries, he is a high level player from wow, they like big words that make them sound smart. Maybe that works on wow forum where he comes from. Just wait, he will soon come with 4 new words he just learned to get back at you.
On-topic
I like the way TL is right now, not sure if its a good idea to try split the community up, making a 1400 diamond player think he is God-sent and starts preaching his way. We still have people often state that his rank to prove his point, but TL users have learned to not take that as a valid point, instead TL wants us to provide replays and discussion, no matter player rank.
Also people recognize the good ones, those who have streams or have proven them self and gained some reputation, it could be from a previous good post about strategy even.
So basically, let TL admins set standards on what a new post on strategy forums should be. It will take some time for all the new users to learn what is tolerated or not. I think it will be fine in a few months without a sub forum. Mean while we can use liquidpedia and do the best out of the current strategy forum. As the game matures, so will the strategy forum. That is what I hope for atleast
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On September 21 2010 21:30 okrane wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 16:39 Grond wrote:On September 21 2010 16:27 okrane wrote:
What I would suggest is making topics where pro-players can post (pro - as in TL decides who has the right to post, it can be tournament winners, or people acknowledged in their field (like Day9)) and everyone else can just read.
this is the only way to do it. pro - as in TL decidesThis is where it gets problematic to put it mildly. Not quite. It can be done in multiple ways: Application BasedPlayer writes an application on the TL forums, posts relevant replays and stats, explains his knowledge. He can then even be tested in game to prove his worth. Tournament BasedShow nested quote +if you're good enough to get invited to MLG/TL-invitational/GSL/etc... you can post... otherwise it's invite only from the people who are already allowed to post in the forum Vouch BasedAn already posting player can vouch for others. Much better than 1300 rank ladder crap.
I doubt the TL staff wants to review hundreds of applications or even worse vet players applications.
Vouching will cause all kinds of problems, I could list several off the top of my head but it really should be pretty obvious. You will inevitably end up with people posting that shouldn't.
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I voted for knowing the level of the player posting, if getting flamed by a bronzie it would be nice for the mods to know that and warn them or delete the post...Sure we could have an elitist sub-forum (and it would be EPIC) but it isn't in the spirit of TL.
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I'm only posting because I can actually weigh in with AJ: It wasn't useful in the slightest. It wasn't bad either, I definitely wouldn't say it was only for trolling or whining, but it didn't "work" the way people seem to think.
I feel hesitant to say it, but it's true: I didn't care what the average gladiator had to say about strategy, because the average gladiator was UTTER SHIT compared to me and other top players.
It very well may be the same in SC2. (I'm not a top player, so I can't necessarily tell). Ratings mean nothing. Most professional players don't ladder much like HuK does.
I think this option couldn't hurt, but it's not going to be some magical place where only useful, construction discussion takes place. It's fairly likely that the top players will feel alienated, again, by the lack of understanding among the lesser skilled players who simply make the rating requirement.
Basically, scoring systems in games don't accurately measure skill or understanding.
On September 21 2010 22:13 Cranberries wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 22:12 TechDeft wrote:On September 21 2010 22:08 Cranberries wrote:
The problem with the idea is that you can get around it and it wont stop idiots posting.
Do you even read the AJ forums? Did you read the AJ forums during S5 when heroic DK/Pally teams roflstomped anyone and posted things along the similar line of "L2P MAN LOLOLOLOL /TRLL". WIth mod and community based choices, there will be a limited selection of people in there. Anyone trolling will be obvious very fast, and lose their access. We already know TL mods are quick to notice and take action, why would this be any different, except maybe MORE heavily moderated. The community that would allow this to happen would not allow trolls to live long their. I just saw a patch 1.1 troll post that got locked and the user temp banned before I could even type a response and hit reply. Instating communism and autocratic idiocy into a SC2 public forum is bad. Do you want TL to be hated as much as Elitist Jerks?
EJ is hated? Are you retarded or did I miss something since I quit WoW a few years back?
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No, EJ isn't hated. The only people who hate it are the same people who get shit on here...folks with nothing meaningful to offer.
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I see two problems:
1. What abput players, that are actually really good but decided that they don't want to ladder and just play custom games against (also high level) buddies! They would be forced to go against their will and ladder just to discuss in these threads!
2. What exactly should these subforums be all about?
i.e. if this is to discuss strategies on a "high level" ... well just being good doesn't mean you have "full" knowledge of the game and be a good strategist!
There are definitely players out there that "see" instantly positive and negative sides of new strategies and can elaborate about them ... but as a player don't have the micro/macro/multitasking skills to back them up! (if I want to brag I could say, that I'm one of them...)
On the other side there are players, that are really good in making strategies work ... but are too "stupid" for own ideas and can't see key points in before someone else tells them so! (my favorite in this direction would propably be the well known "kolll"!)
so there are a lot of problems...
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EPT
