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On September 14 2010 08:05 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:good post, sums up entirely what I view as the current problem as well - I don't feel that the Zerg lacks the tools necessary adapt, i think they lack the tools necessary to gain that information in the first place. Slow overlords were fine for a game like Brood War, which had far more rigid build commitments and far more telling signs. Zerg really needs an option pre-lair to scout better, because being shoehorned into fast lair isn't a good option either. I want it to be clear this is something i feel is a weakness of zerg that needs to be addressed. It's important to make that clarification or things like 'look how many terrans win these bumblefuck tournaments' look like they have more weight than they should  (For anyone who cares, the fix I have in mind is moving overlord speed to hatchery but it requires spawning pool. pool timing very important! ^_^)
I think the BW-SC2 comparison goes a bit further than just overlord speed. I've always believed the issue lies in the game design itself.
Concepts like cheap T1 antiair unit, the amount of resourcing available to the player (1 gas spire yesplz) gave zerg such a breadth of freedom to go about their game with little worry. But now things like reactor, techlab, instead of having to build additional buildings that require a massive investment in time and resources, and units that do huge additional damage instead of reduced damaged, put an extreme amount of pressure on a severely hampered race.
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Wow... how much more proof do ppl need that Zerg is UP??? lol.. this is just sad.
Anyone who says no good players play Z is just a fool. You have to consider there r so many reasons for stats like this to occur over and over and over again.
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On September 14 2010 09:31 StupidFatHobbit wrote:
Roach was never op at 1 supply and it needs to be reverted before zerg stands a chance.
.
It was.
Ever seen replays back in the days that the roach was 1 supply in ZvP?
The whole MU was in the lategame basicly:
200/200 roaches, safe up larva, rally everything to the battle, start making roaches.
Altough the current state of the roach 2food/1armor isn't perfect, I feel that it's less of an issue then if we would still have the 1 supply roach.
And yes, I agree with lalush, giving X unit +X stats or -X stats isn't gonna balance sc2, it might bring the actual numbers on the winrates a bit better, but in the end you just end up with "flawed MU's" imo.
And I don't want to be in a situation 2 months from now here it is.
Race X wins if he does X at 15mins in the game, but it's okay because race Y can do Z before that and win the game.
And then MU's coming down to something silly like that.
Or just general Bo wins, and rock-paper-scissor's type of play.
Atleast with the current stance of blizzard on balance changes that is what I see the game going to, but ye, what do I know, I could be completely wrong.
edit:
And what I mean with the last paragraph is that blizzard just wants the game to be played in a certain manner, look at the type of maps that they have put out, and they are fine with that.
Look at the balance changes done troughout the beta, they aren't just willing to take a step back and maybe have a look at the overall race mechanics and how those work out and realize that most of the problems stem from that.
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Pretty much just speculation whether colossus would still be too strong or not. Depends on what the other player can accomplish and get away with in the same amount of time (imo could get away with more than if chrono boost was kept as powerful as it is now).
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On September 14 2010 08:19 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
I think you also need to include the % of race entry to make this more meaningful.
example: if 75% terran entries gave 75% terran winners, then it's pretty "balanced".
This....this data is completely meaningless unless you factor in the amount of entrants for each race. I'm sure it still would support the hypothesis "Zerg is underpowered", but not nearly to the degree the OP implies. That being said Z needs a buff ofc, but how?
This has been said in previous discussions on same topic.
The % that plays zerg compared to terran and toss is around the same for platinum and below. However terrans is usually one league above where they are supposed to be, thats why you see so many terrans on top of diamond and less in platinum. Same goes for tournaments, in alot of the tournaments, you have no name terrans going into semi finals and even finals, but you never see any other zerg then dimaga getting high.
You cant say that the data is meaningless because there are less zergs in the tournaments. There is a reason there is less zergs, and that is because they are really weak, and also harder to play.
By the logic of people who deny any form of the "evidence" we see by both top 200 ladder and tournament wins, they obviously think players like dimaga/slush/sheth/haypro/madfrog etcetc is worse players then the random terran names that started rising after beta.
Its absurd, and everyone who thinks terran is fine and these statistics dont show anything cus there are less zergs..., is either newb terrans who cant win with their OP race or retarded.
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Interesting thought about the macro mechanics LaLush.
I believe, though, that scaling can exist under the current infrastructure of the game for T and P. Simply put, because their macro mechanics are based on number of bases, the more the bases increase so the power of the macro mechanic increases at a linear rate. I'm not an expert of game design, but nerfing MULE and Chrono while implementing your suggested inject larvae nerf would create the same effect across all races based on this fact, unless I'm missing something.
The only other potential problem is that inject also scales with hatcheries, but it's the only macro mechanic that requires an external unit--the queen, and the only race with a definable tier system to base it off of.
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On September 14 2010 08:19 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
I think you also need to include the % of race entry to make this more meaningful.
example: if 75% terran entries gave 75% terran winners, then it's pretty "balanced".
This....this data is completely meaningless unless you factor in the amount of entrants for each race. I'm sure it still would support the hypothesis "Zerg is underpowered", but not nearly to the degree the OP implies. That being said Z needs a buff ofc, but how?
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=152449
The excessive number of terran entrants just solidifies how horrifically huge the disbalance issues have become, not absolves em of imbalance claim.
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I really like the idea of tiers for macro mechanics along with tiers for tech. You could have 2/3/4 Larva, 16.5%/33%/50% Chronoboost at Nexus/Twilight-Robo-Stargate/Templar-RoboSupport-FBeacon, and 90/180/270 mineral MULEs at Barracks/Factory/Starport--just as a rough outline
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On September 14 2010 09:52 Pekkz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 08:19 Half wrote:
I think you also need to include the % of race entry to make this more meaningful.
example: if 75% terran entries gave 75% terran winners, then it's pretty "balanced".
This....this data is completely meaningless unless you factor in the amount of entrants for each race. I'm sure it still would support the hypothesis "Zerg is underpowered", but not nearly to the degree the OP implies. That being said Z needs a buff ofc, but how? This has been said in previous discussions on same topic. The % that plays zerg compared to terran and toss is around the same for platinum and below. However terrans is usually one league above where they are supposed to be, thats why you see so many terrans on top of diamond and less in platinum. Same goes for tournaments, in alot of the tournaments, you have no name terrans going into semi finals and even finals, but you never see any other zerg then dimaga getting high. You cant say that the data is meaningless because there are less zergs in the tournaments. There is a reason there is less zergs, and that is because they are really weak, and also harder to play. By the logic of people who deny any form of the "evidence" we see by both top 200 ladder and tournament wins, they obviously think players like dimaga/slush/sheth/haypro/madfrog etcetc is worse players then the random terran names that started rising after beta. Its absurd, and everyone who thinks terran is fine and these statistics dont show anything cus there are less zergs..., is either newb terrans who cant win with their OP race or retarded.
I remember at the beginning of the beta. When zerg players were winning every single tournament.
I think the argument went something along the lines of: "There simply are more better and famous players choosing zerg than terran and protoss in the transition to sc2".
I don't think general race distribution at lower levels (even including statistics for diamond league race distrubition) affects the amount of zergs/protosses/terrans at the absolute top level too much. If the races are balanced, there'll pretty much always be a pretty even amount of players choosing each race at the absolute top level.
I think you could argue the same thing about BW. There being way more protosses than any other race on iccup. But that didn't really affect the race distribution at the absolute top levels at all.
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On September 14 2010 09:45 Icx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 09:31 StupidFatHobbit wrote:
Roach was never op at 1 supply and it needs to be reverted before zerg stands a chance.
. It was.
Watch this game-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwLsmi9VE2U
If zerg was OP it was only slightly so.
I mean who besides dimaga ever made Z look OP? noone. We basically got all these nerfs cause of 1 guy out there.
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Generally what happens is when ppl feel their favorite race is too weak they do one of two things: 1) switch to a different race or 2) stop playing as much and wait for a new patch that will hopefully balance things. Clearly a good % of Z players have switched or stop playing as much since they feel there is no point or they will just ruin their win %'s from what it really should be. At this point something seriously has to be done, Z players r so sick of the unreliability of the race and so many freakin nerfs.
Anyone who says otherwise is clearly Terran or slow.
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On September 14 2010 10:06 FlamingTurd wrote:
Generally what happens is when ppl feel their favorite race is too weak they do one of two things: 1) switch to a different race or 2) stop playing as much and wait for a new patch that will hopefully balance things. Clearly a good % of Z players have switched or stop playing as much since they feel there is no point or they will just ruin their win %'s from what it really should be. At this point something seriously has to be done, Z players r so sick of the unreliability of the race and so many freakin nerfs.
Anyone who says otherwise is clearly Terran or slow.
I just play at 6am in the morning when the matchups are more favourable -_-
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On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran 
ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages  its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance
we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance
i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players...
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I would love to see MorroW play Zerg for a while. It would certainly impart some perspective
Also Dimaga doesn't really manage to win anymore. He's going nowhere in most tournaments, just like other Zergs
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On September 14 2010 10:26 theqat wrote:
I would love to see MorroW play Zerg for a while. It would certainly impart some perspective
Also Dimaga doesn't really manage to win anymore. He's going nowhere in most tournaments, just like other Zergs
it would be fun but wouldnt prove shit. on top of it new patch is coming out and im sure things will change soon, i just wish ppl wouldnt be so blindly throwing the imba anytime they see a terran win. u take like strelok utterly outplaying some random underdog zerg and ppl start saying its imba, wtf seriously? -.- he is just better and this is my point in the foreigner scene we simply have tons more terrans that are better on the top
if im offending ppl then fine, i dont care. u cry too much, try as much as dimaga then u can complain. he knows what he talk about but most player say everything is imba all the time
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On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players...
Have you even played Zerg? I'd like to see you try. You'd get an unbelievable amount of respect from everyone if you would be successful. But, I guarantee you'll win nothing.
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if morrow switched to zerg, he would be a biggest hero in sc2! but he wouldn't cuz he wouldnt win anything...
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On September 14 2010 10:28 Fantistic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players... Have you even played Zerg? I'd like to see you try. You'd get an unbelievable amount of respect from everyone if you would be successful. But, I guarantee you'll win nothing.
have you played 6 hours a day for all beta and release? no? ok maybe thats the problem. this many top terrans has done on our list but how many zerg foreigners has practiced as hard as us?
terran is fucking OP but these tournament results cant give zerg more wins because we dont have any zergs to win any tournaments except dimaga, idra doesnt play these
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On September 14 2010 10:31 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 10:28 Fantistic wrote:On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players... Have you even played Zerg? I'd like to see you try. You'd get an unbelievable amount of respect from everyone if you would be successful. But, I guarantee you'll win nothing. have you played 6 hours a day for all beta and release? no? ok maybe thats the problem. this many top terrans has done on our list but how many zerg foreigners has practiced as hard as us? terran is fucking OP but these tournament results cant give zerg more wins because we dont have any zergs to win any tournaments except dimaga, idra doesnt play these
Slush, Machine, Zelniq, Bubba, Haypro etc etc
oh and catz :p
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