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this is so sad 
blizzard has to do something or there are no zergs anymore. im sick of watching TvT...
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On September 14 2010 10:31 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 10:28 Fantistic wrote:On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran  ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages  its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players... Have you even played Zerg? I'd like to see you try. You'd get an unbelievable amount of respect from everyone if you would be successful. But, I guarantee you'll win nothing. have you played 6 hours a day for all beta and release? no? ok maybe thats the problem. this many top terrans has done on our list but how many zerg foreigners has practiced as hard as us? terran is fucking OP but these tournament results cant give zerg more wins because we dont have any zergs to win any tournaments except dimaga, idra doesnt play these
You didn't answer my question. How much Zerg have you played?
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On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players...
Isnt it kind of suspicious that there's so few zergs ?
Also Lalush wrote a prety good post about why zergs struggles in tournies (see random build you didnt prepare = loose part of his post).
EDIT: Quoted wrong post
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On September 14 2010 10:31 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 10:28 Fantistic wrote:On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players... Have you even played Zerg? I'd like to see you try. You'd get an unbelievable amount of respect from everyone if you would be successful. But, I guarantee you'll win nothing. have you played 6 hours a day for all beta and release? no? ok maybe thats the problem. this many top terrans has done on our list but how many zerg foreigners has practiced as hard as us? terran is fucking OP but these tournament results cant give zerg more wins because we dont have any zergs to win any tournaments except dimaga, idra doesnt play these
Marrow your awesome, truly a beast.
But Implying that zerg is underrepresented in tournaments because they are not putting in the "time" or are just less skilled in general is almost insulting(:D).
<3
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On September 14 2010 10:41 Reo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 10:31 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 10:28 Fantistic wrote:On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players... Have you even played Zerg? I'd like to see you try. You'd get an unbelievable amount of respect from everyone if you would be successful. But, I guarantee you'll win nothing. have you played 6 hours a day for all beta and release? no? ok maybe thats the problem. this many top terrans has done on our list but how many zerg foreigners has practiced as hard as us? terran is fucking OP but these tournament results cant give zerg more wins because we dont have any zergs to win any tournaments except dimaga, idra doesnt play these Marrow your awesome, truly a beast. But Implying that zerg is underrepresented in tournaments because they are not putting in the "time" or are just less skilled in general is almost insulating. <3
Yeah i kno rite like when Marrow says that i'm like wow it feels warm and stuff like insulation cuz it's so rude
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I don't understand how anyone can possibly think that zerg is ok after seeing stats like this. Quite clearly players will pick whichever options gives them the best tools and chance to win with for tournaments, especially when money is at stake.
The way I see it is more that zerg is underpowered rather than terran OP, because as a random player myself I quite like the tools that terran has. You can see a lot of effort was put into giving terran heaps of options, flexibility, all the units and skills work well together as whole and it is a very nicely rounded race. P feels more similar to T, has some decent options too but you do notice that it's like missing the icing on the cake in some ways (still plenty of awesome options, but T just seems to have a few slightly easier options). Then Z, poor little zergies. You just feel exposed and helpless playing as zerg, as if you're waiting for the opponent to make a mistake rather than having the option to find an opening for yourself. Zerg feels like it doesn't have the same amount of options, and the options you do have take so long to get to, while the enemy can see exactly what tech you are going for. It's all been said before, so no need to go on here.
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morrow says it right in his post, terran is fucking op
don't know why it needs to be discussed further or why he doesn't see the connection between that and the tournament results. If Zerg were playable, more people would play Zerg and win with Zerg. It's that simple. They just aren't playable
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On September 14 2010 10:31 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 10:28 Fantistic wrote:On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players... Have you even played Zerg? I'd like to see you try. You'd get an unbelievable amount of respect from everyone if you would be successful. But, I guarantee you'll win nothing. have you played 6 hours a day for all beta and release? no? ok maybe thats the problem. this many top terrans has done on our list but how many zerg foreigners has practiced as hard as us? terran is fucking OP but these tournament results cant give zerg more wins because we dont have any zergs to win any tournaments except dimaga, idra doesnt play these
Slush, Sheth, Machine, Sen, Idra, Haypro, Artosis, Catz, Lalush
All of them particpated in a lot of tournaments and won quite a few in beta. You can't possibly say they're all worse than the dozens of random Terrans who just came out nowhere after release and started winning left and right.
From the list of Terran winners, the only players I can truly respect for their skills are:
Morrow, Sjow, Strelok, Brat_OK, TLO, DeMusliM
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On September 14 2010 08:43 LaLuSh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 07:30 Fitz wrote:On September 14 2010 07:18 LaLuSh wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Perfection is very hard to achieve when the matchup involves such a high degree of guessing for zerg. Even when you scout a certain tech path from the terran, you still cannot be sure what is coming. Yesterday for example (one out of a thousand examples), I scouted a very fast tech starport tech lab switch from brat_ok in a tournament game, and I began making spore crawlers and queens while massing drones. I was sure I was going to come out far ahead. What happens next? He only uses the starport to build 1 banshee. Switches his strat around instantly, builds 1 medivac and 1 thor, drops it on my cliff, completely shuts down mining and easily takes out my expansion hatchery.
There is no way a zerg can account for all these possibilities at the same time. Every terran is unique. Every terran has got their own specialized (and often retarded) transition. Banshee doesn't have to mean banshee. 2 rax doesn't have to mean aggressive infantry build. It might as well mean a nonsensical delayed 2 or 1 port banshee with cloak.
You have all these idiot terrans scoring easy instant wins vs zergs everywhere, because even if you scout their production buildings, half of the time you've still got no fucking clue what they're doing. You scout a barrack constantly producing marines and a starport without addons? Maybe he'll use it for 1 viking and then medivacs. Maybe he'll use it for a fast medivac dropping 8 marines straight into your base. Maybe he's the kind of terran that built another rax in his base and waits for 2 medivacs before dropping you. Maybe he's the kind of retarded terran that waits for so long, that eventually you start making drones again, and in flies 3medivacs fully loaded with units. Sometimes they make a medivac and don't even use it for anything, they just expand and pretend it's a logical strategy.
You make drones and go for the early spire vs the 1 medivac 8 marine drop? You'll take sick damage. You start making units too late vs the 2 medivac drop and even hint at making the spire? You die. You start making units too early vs the 3 medivac drop instead of making the spire, and then suddenly think the coast is clear and proceed into making a round of drones because the drop never seems to come? You die.
You make too many units vs the nonsensical terran that went a 1-1-1 build into an 11-minute mark expand with medivacs and lots of marines before expanding but didn't even drop you ? You die from mining 600 less minerals per minute every subsequent minute.
Even when watching Sen's stream - who I consider to be 20x better than me and a complete monster ZvT - you see him losing instantly to noob terrans after overdroning vs a 3rax or 2rax/hellion all-in, or making too many units vs a faked aggression into fast expand build, or upgrading ling speed before lair and subsequently dying to 2port banshee without even having a fighting chance.
The main reason you see so many zergs getting eliminated so early, is because you have to have sick amount of LUCK to beat 5-6 terrans in a row. It doesn't matter how good and how skilled you are. Beating that many terrans in a row will require more luck than it will require skill.
The point is, there is too much of an element of randomness for zerg in the matchup depending on which tech path they opt for. And it cannot be fixed by simply "scouting better". The difference in win rate from playing a terran ranked #60 as opposed to a terran ranked #5 isn't that great. There's still the ~20% of games where you instantly lose due to a build order/tech path loss, no matter how good/bad your terran opponent is.
Then there are the truly good terrans. The ones of equal skill to you. The ones who'll win at least 50% of the games that reach beyond the "zerg guesses wrong instantly loses" phase.
The win ratio against those terrans won't ever be 50% for zergs. Much like the scrub terrans, the good terrans too will instantly win about ~20% of their games on pure build order errors from zerg. If they win half of the rest of games that puts them at 60% vs the zergs.
For a good terran facing a scrub zerg. There's perhaps a 1% chance of a build order loss. Again, number pulled out of my ass, but I should really think it's single digit, and amongst the lower single digits. You don't see morrow, brat_ok or demuslim losing to scrub zergs, EVER.
TvP, they might lose a higher percentage of games against no name protosses. But not nearly as high as zergs vs terran and protoss.
So what you end up with (poker analogy) is top zergs having to fight their way through 5-6 top pocket pair vs lower pocket pair preflop all-ins without getting drawn out one single time! And of course a couple of other key hands that actually reach the flop, turn and river (normal games where the zerg had some influence on the outcome and didn't instantly lose).
This post was written as a rant from start from finish. Forgive me if it's very incoherent.
+ Show Spoiler +I think it was very coherent and worth the read.
The only think I'd like you to take the time to think is how could that change ? It seem to me like the problem you're describing is deeper than a 5 second additionnal reaper build time.
Every now and then terrans will tell you that the scouting answer is to sacc. an ovie or even two (ovie pincer, whoever came up with this idea) at a very low food count, which is very weakening for a zerg to do. Just to hope you get the general idea of what the T is doing behind his walls.
Ive read your other thread and your suggestions, but none of them (I think) address this issue.
I personally think the macro mechanics are to blame for most of what's "wrong" in SC2. You often hear korean bw-coaches dismiss SC2 by saying "it is too fast paced", which is somewhat of a strange remark seeing how fast paced of a game BW is considered to be, but nonetheless I agree with them. The macro mechanics make you reach saturation on one base so fast that there's not enough of a discrepancy between a "normal" build and an "all-in" build. You're simply not forced to enough of an economic trade off for cheesing or opting for an aggressive build. In SC1, going 4gate would actually mean something significant. Scouting someone going 4gate was significant. You'd have to sacrifice economy and saturation to even do a 4gate. In SC2, saturation on 1base is reached so fast, rushes are boosted so much, attack timings are so fast forwarded, that it forces everyone into conformity. There don't exist no fast shuttle (warp prism) drops with reaver (colossus) no more, because if you are to choose such a tech path, you'll have 8 zealots, 10 stalkers, and 4 sentries knocking at your doorstep by the 6th minute in the game. There is simply no way in hell you can defend that with 1colossus 3 stalker and 1 zealot and 1 sentry or whatever low unit number composition you'll have after spending so much on tech. Macro mechanics are like the fourth race of Starcraft. At least as much detail that was spent on balancing the races by Blizzard should have been spent on balancing the macro mechanics. They need to have a reasonable strength level. One that allows for a wider strategic diversity, rather than forcing everyone to "at least make 3 gate every game or else I'll die". It's for the exact same reason that DT rush is a rock paper scissors build in SC2. While TT1 might have made that thread advocating DT play in PvP out of good reasons, I don't think he or anyone else really understood why DT play is so bad in SC2. In SC1, if you wanted to have observers out in time to defend against DTs, you'd have to sacrifice building more gateways for a quicker robo. In SC2, everything's boosted to such a degree you can easily have 3-4 gates and still get the robo up in time to defend DTs. What you end up with is a situation where if the DT rush fails (i.e. if the opponent went for any strategy involving detection at all). He'll have about 12 more units participating in the counterattack against your base than in the analogous situation in Broodwar. As such there exists no transition from opening DTs. Either you win the game instantly, or you lose horribly to the counterattack. There is no inbetween. Even if they were to buff DTs by lowering the build time for the dark shrine, it would have no other effect than making DT openings instantly win a higher percentage of the time. It would still instantly lose the rest of the time where the other protoss opted for fast enough detection. This is a perfect example in my opinion, of balance changes being unable to introduce strategic diversity to the game. And this is what Blizzard have been dabbling with all beta long. They've been nerfing the crap out of pretty much everything, because shit just kept dying too fast and too easily against other shit produced in bulk. I'm not arguing for the macro mechanics to be removed though. It's a unique aspect of SC2 that distinguishes it from SC1 and introduces a whole new aspect of play. It should definitely stay in game. But for the HotS beta test, they seriously need to consider rebalancing macro mechanics. I'll eventually post a thread about it as I usually do, when I'm finished theorycrafting around the subject. Though, I don't feel as if I've got a good enough solution to present as of yet. Right now I'm leaning towards suggesting a scaling method of sorts for macro mechanics. 2larva per inject on tier 1, 3 on tier 2 (lair tech) etc. Same sort of scaling effect for chrono boost and MULE. In order to slow down the early game somewhat. In my mind it makes sense, as it would remove alot of the random elements in the game and give players a proper chance to actually adapt to scouting information, as opposed to being hit by a 4warpgate all-in merely ~40 seconds after scouting it. I think the game would benefit greatly from having technical strategies like warp prism colossus drops with gravitic drive upgrades become viable. And they would, as long as Blizzard just slows down the early game somewhat. As long as teching becomes a viable game path as opposed to everyone having to conform to the "Gotta produce as much shit as possible off of 1base as fast as humanly possible"-syndrome that's plaguing the game and will continue to plague it as long as the macro mechanics are designed the way they are and are as strong as they are right now. No small unit tweak balance changes are ever going to change that you're going to have to defend a 4warp gate all-in in 90% of your games vsP on the ladder. Small unit tweaks aren't magically going to introduce more "strategic diversity" in SC2, as long as players aren't given enough time to adapt to scouting information. Current state of zerg is pretty much: Either start the necessary upgrade/building before scouting or run the very real risk that the upgrade/building you started after scouting won't be complete by the time you get all-inned/cliff dropped/cloak bansheed/whatever. The "you just gotta learn to scout better"-horde on TL are really annoying in this aspect. By the time you scout it, half of the time there isn't enough time to adapt anyway! All Blizzard's balance changes have achieved thus far when it comes to zerg is either making them die faster/easier or sustain more damage early game, or making them survive easier early game and thus automatically be broken against Protoss mid and lategame. And in my opinion macro mechanics are more to blame for any of this than any unit being over- or underpowered.
Even though you make some compelling arguments about the pace of the game and changes that may improve overall balance, Blizzard will never change the game so drastically.
Within the core game play/mechanics we have now, tweaking numbers is really the best Blizz can do until expansion packs are released.
Until then, the general skill level of zerg players will unfortunately have to be far greater than toss/terran players in order to compete.
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You'd have to admit though, it's pretty odd that only 2 people were able to use Zerg to win tournaments since release. It'd be a lot different if the spread was more like 40/40/20 but the numbers here are ridiculously acute. I don't mean that in an inflammatory way or anything, though.
Here's to hoping that these numbers change in the future! ^^
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Zerg is really the most "fun" race. You swarm enemies, you slowly contaminate the map with creep, you can hide units with burrow and set up ambushes. Infestors can mind control enemies and brood lords are like flying siege tanks.
There are a lot of people that want to play zerg. There are a lot of people that try to play zerg competitively. Unfortunately, for all the potential coolness of the race, it falls short due to the much-whined about balance issues currently dogging the tournament scene.
Don't feel the need to defend yourself or Terran here Morrow, you're a great player. It just doesn't seem likely that you would be as successful playing as zerg, despite having your skill level. Also, have you been watching the GSL? There are 5 zergs out of 13 that have played remaining in the round of 32 and one of them played a ZvZ match. Watching even the Korean pros play as zerg isn't very inspiring with the way they still get crushed by an MMM+tanks build that casual players see in ladder every day. The reason for racial imbalance in tournament wins isn't because Terran is the cool-guy race -- they're just the ones that can win.
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On September 14 2010 10:51 gozima wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 08:43 LaLuSh wrote:On September 14 2010 07:30 Fitz wrote:On September 14 2010 07:18 LaLuSh wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Perfection is very hard to achieve when the matchup involves such a high degree of guessing for zerg. Even when you scout a certain tech path from the terran, you still cannot be sure what is coming. Yesterday for example (one out of a thousand examples), I scouted a very fast tech starport tech lab switch from brat_ok in a tournament game, and I began making spore crawlers and queens while massing drones. I was sure I was going to come out far ahead. What happens next? He only uses the starport to build 1 banshee. Switches his strat around instantly, builds 1 medivac and 1 thor, drops it on my cliff, completely shuts down mining and easily takes out my expansion hatchery.
There is no way a zerg can account for all these possibilities at the same time. Every terran is unique. Every terran has got their own specialized (and often retarded) transition. Banshee doesn't have to mean banshee. 2 rax doesn't have to mean aggressive infantry build. It might as well mean a nonsensical delayed 2 or 1 port banshee with cloak.
You have all these idiot terrans scoring easy instant wins vs zergs everywhere, because even if you scout their production buildings, half of the time you've still got no fucking clue what they're doing. You scout a barrack constantly producing marines and a starport without addons? Maybe he'll use it for 1 viking and then medivacs. Maybe he'll use it for a fast medivac dropping 8 marines straight into your base. Maybe he's the kind of terran that built another rax in his base and waits for 2 medivacs before dropping you. Maybe he's the kind of retarded terran that waits for so long, that eventually you start making drones again, and in flies 3medivacs fully loaded with units. Sometimes they make a medivac and don't even use it for anything, they just expand and pretend it's a logical strategy.
You make drones and go for the early spire vs the 1 medivac 8 marine drop? You'll take sick damage. You start making units too late vs the 2 medivac drop and even hint at making the spire? You die. You start making units too early vs the 3 medivac drop instead of making the spire, and then suddenly think the coast is clear and proceed into making a round of drones because the drop never seems to come? You die.
You make too many units vs the nonsensical terran that went a 1-1-1 build into an 11-minute mark expand with medivacs and lots of marines before expanding but didn't even drop you ? You die from mining 600 less minerals per minute every subsequent minute.
Even when watching Sen's stream - who I consider to be 20x better than me and a complete monster ZvT - you see him losing instantly to noob terrans after overdroning vs a 3rax or 2rax/hellion all-in, or making too many units vs a faked aggression into fast expand build, or upgrading ling speed before lair and subsequently dying to 2port banshee without even having a fighting chance.
The main reason you see so many zergs getting eliminated so early, is because you have to have sick amount of LUCK to beat 5-6 terrans in a row. It doesn't matter how good and how skilled you are. Beating that many terrans in a row will require more luck than it will require skill.
The point is, there is too much of an element of randomness for zerg in the matchup depending on which tech path they opt for. And it cannot be fixed by simply "scouting better". The difference in win rate from playing a terran ranked #60 as opposed to a terran ranked #5 isn't that great. There's still the ~20% of games where you instantly lose due to a build order/tech path loss, no matter how good/bad your terran opponent is.
Then there are the truly good terrans. The ones of equal skill to you. The ones who'll win at least 50% of the games that reach beyond the "zerg guesses wrong instantly loses" phase.
The win ratio against those terrans won't ever be 50% for zergs. Much like the scrub terrans, the good terrans too will instantly win about ~20% of their games on pure build order errors from zerg. If they win half of the rest of games that puts them at 60% vs the zergs.
For a good terran facing a scrub zerg. There's perhaps a 1% chance of a build order loss. Again, number pulled out of my ass, but I should really think it's single digit, and amongst the lower single digits. You don't see morrow, brat_ok or demuslim losing to scrub zergs, EVER.
TvP, they might lose a higher percentage of games against no name protosses. But not nearly as high as zergs vs terran and protoss.
So what you end up with (poker analogy) is top zergs having to fight their way through 5-6 top pocket pair vs lower pocket pair preflop all-ins without getting drawn out one single time! And of course a couple of other key hands that actually reach the flop, turn and river (normal games where the zerg had some influence on the outcome and didn't instantly lose).
This post was written as a rant from start from finish. Forgive me if it's very incoherent.
+ Show Spoiler +I think it was very coherent and worth the read.
The only think I'd like you to take the time to think is how could that change ? It seem to me like the problem you're describing is deeper than a 5 second additionnal reaper build time.
Every now and then terrans will tell you that the scouting answer is to sacc. an ovie or even two (ovie pincer, whoever came up with this idea) at a very low food count, which is very weakening for a zerg to do. Just to hope you get the general idea of what the T is doing behind his walls.
Ive read your other thread and your suggestions, but none of them (I think) address this issue.
I personally think the macro mechanics are to blame for most of what's "wrong" in SC2. You often hear korean bw-coaches dismiss SC2 by saying "it is too fast paced", which is somewhat of a strange remark seeing how fast paced of a game BW is considered to be, but nonetheless I agree with them. The macro mechanics make you reach saturation on one base so fast that there's not enough of a discrepancy between a "normal" build and an "all-in" build. You're simply not forced to enough of an economic trade off for cheesing or opting for an aggressive build. In SC1, going 4gate would actually mean something significant. Scouting someone going 4gate was significant. You'd have to sacrifice economy and saturation to even do a 4gate. In SC2, saturation on 1base is reached so fast, rushes are boosted so much, attack timings are so fast forwarded, that it forces everyone into conformity. There don't exist no fast shuttle (warp prism) drops with reaver (colossus) no more, because if you are to choose such a tech path, you'll have 8 zealots, 10 stalkers, and 4 sentries knocking at your doorstep by the 6th minute in the game. There is simply no way in hell you can defend that with 1colossus 3 stalker and 1 zealot and 1 sentry or whatever low unit number composition you'll have after spending so much on tech. Macro mechanics are like the fourth race of Starcraft. At least as much detail that was spent on balancing the races by Blizzard should have been spent on balancing the macro mechanics. They need to have a reasonable strength level. One that allows for a wider strategic diversity, rather than forcing everyone to "at least make 3 gate every game or else I'll die". It's for the exact same reason that DT rush is a rock paper scissors build in SC2. While TT1 might have made that thread advocating DT play in PvP out of good reasons, I don't think he or anyone else really understood why DT play is so bad in SC2. In SC1, if you wanted to have observers out in time to defend against DTs, you'd have to sacrifice building more gateways for a quicker robo. In SC2, everything's boosted to such a degree you can easily have 3-4 gates and still get the robo up in time to defend DTs. What you end up with is a situation where if the DT rush fails (i.e. if the opponent went for any strategy involving detection at all). He'll have about 12 more units participating in the counterattack against your base than in the analogous situation in Broodwar. As such there exists no transition from opening DTs. Either you win the game instantly, or you lose horribly to the counterattack. There is no inbetween. Even if they were to buff DTs by lowering the build time for the dark shrine, it would have no other effect than making DT openings instantly win a higher percentage of the time. It would still instantly lose the rest of the time where the other protoss opted for fast enough detection. This is a perfect example in my opinion, of balance changes being unable to introduce strategic diversity to the game. And this is what Blizzard have been dabbling with all beta long. They've been nerfing the crap out of pretty much everything, because shit just kept dying too fast and too easily against other shit produced in bulk. I'm not arguing for the macro mechanics to be removed though. It's a unique aspect of SC2 that distinguishes it from SC1 and introduces a whole new aspect of play. It should definitely stay in game. But for the HotS beta test, they seriously need to consider rebalancing macro mechanics. I'll eventually post a thread about it as I usually do, when I'm finished theorycrafting around the subject. Though, I don't feel as if I've got a good enough solution to present as of yet. Right now I'm leaning towards suggesting a scaling method of sorts for macro mechanics. 2larva per inject on tier 1, 3 on tier 2 (lair tech) etc. Same sort of scaling effect for chrono boost and MULE. In order to slow down the early game somewhat. In my mind it makes sense, as it would remove alot of the random elements in the game and give players a proper chance to actually adapt to scouting information, as opposed to being hit by a 4warpgate all-in merely ~40 seconds after scouting it. I think the game would benefit greatly from having technical strategies like warp prism colossus drops with gravitic drive upgrades become viable. And they would, as long as Blizzard just slows down the early game somewhat. As long as teching becomes a viable game path as opposed to everyone having to conform to the "Gotta produce as much shit as possible off of 1base as fast as humanly possible"-syndrome that's plaguing the game and will continue to plague it as long as the macro mechanics are designed the way they are and are as strong as they are right now. No small unit tweak balance changes are ever going to change that you're going to have to defend a 4warp gate all-in in 90% of your games vsP on the ladder. Small unit tweaks aren't magically going to introduce more "strategic diversity" in SC2, as long as players aren't given enough time to adapt to scouting information. Current state of zerg is pretty much: Either start the necessary upgrade/building before scouting or run the very real risk that the upgrade/building you started after scouting won't be complete by the time you get all-inned/cliff dropped/cloak bansheed/whatever. The "you just gotta learn to scout better"-horde on TL are really annoying in this aspect. By the time you scout it, half of the time there isn't enough time to adapt anyway! All Blizzard's balance changes have achieved thus far when it comes to zerg is either making them die faster/easier or sustain more damage early game, or making them survive easier early game and thus automatically be broken against Protoss mid and lategame. And in my opinion macro mechanics are more to blame for any of this than any unit being over- or underpowered. Even though you make some compelling arguments about the pace of the game and changes that may improve overall balance, Blizzard will never change the game so drastically. Within the core game play/mechanics we have now, tweaking numbers is really the best Blizz can do until expansion packs are released. Until then, the general skill level of zerg players will unfortunately have to be far greater than toss/terran players in order to compete.
Yea the original post even included a line: "For the HotS beta test". This could never be introduced in a normal patch.
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On September 14 2010 10:28 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 10:26 theqat wrote:
I would love to see MorroW play Zerg for a while. It would certainly impart some perspective
Also Dimaga doesn't really manage to win anymore. He's going nowhere in most tournaments, just like other Zergs it would be fun but wouldnt prove shit. on top of it new patch is coming out and im sure things will change soon, i just wish ppl wouldnt be so blindly throwing the imba anytime they see a terran win. u take like strelok utterly outplaying some random underdog zerg and ppl start saying its imba, wtf seriously? -.- he is just better and this is my point in the foreigner scene we simply have tons more terrans that are better on the top if im offending ppl then fine, i dont care. u cry too much, try as much as dimaga then u can complain. he knows what he talk about but most player say everything is imba all the time
quiet a different song from all the "baneling OP" you and strelok sang during the beta.
It's only imba if it's hard for you, eh?
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Terran is definitely more OP than Zerg is UP, if that makes any sense. Terran needs to be nerfed to the ground, and Z and P needs some tweaks here and there. Either way, it'll be a long way until the game is fully balanced.
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Couldn't different maps help the "early game" problems? Like easy to defend expansions and long distances between opponents?
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damn i never knew there were so many sc2 tours, i guess they add up with the zotac + go4sc2 cups.. its kinda unfortunate that the us server still doesnt have big weekly tours like the eu server (apart from the wolf cup)
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Also, for those who are making the baseless argument that Z is fine in Korea, just look at the GSL results.
So far, out of 13 Z, only 5 have advanced into Ro32. On top of that, 4/5 of those Z qualified through either ZvP or ZvZ. Only Idra who completely outmatched his T opponent got through a ZvT. In all other cases, whenever a Z met a T opponent, they were eliminated.
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On September 14 2010 10:33 _Darwin_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 10:31 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 10:28 Fantistic wrote:On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players... Have you even played Zerg? I'd like to see you try. You'd get an unbelievable amount of respect from everyone if you would be successful. But, I guarantee you'll win nothing. have you played 6 hours a day for all beta and release? no? ok maybe thats the problem. this many top terrans has done on our list but how many zerg foreigners has practiced as hard as us? terran is fucking OP but these tournament results cant give zerg more wins because we dont have any zergs to win any tournaments except dimaga, idra doesnt play these Slush, Machine, Zelniq, Bubba, Haypro etc etc oh and catz :p
Haypro, Zpux, orly, moman, madrow, darkforce, madfrog, daboo, aby, horror, Mondragon (when he plays), lalush.
Not to forget how hilariously bad Zerg are doing in NA.
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On September 14 2010 11:13 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 10:33 _Darwin_ wrote:On September 14 2010 10:31 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 10:28 Fantistic wrote:On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players... Have you even played Zerg? I'd like to see you try. You'd get an unbelievable amount of respect from everyone if you would be successful. But, I guarantee you'll win nothing. have you played 6 hours a day for all beta and release? no? ok maybe thats the problem. this many top terrans has done on our list but how many zerg foreigners has practiced as hard as us? terran is fucking OP but these tournament results cant give zerg more wins because we dont have any zergs to win any tournaments except dimaga, idra doesnt play these Slush, Machine, Zelniq, Bubba, Haypro etc etc oh and catz :p Haypro, Zpux, orly, moman, madrow, darkforce, madfrog, daboo, aby, horror, Mondragon (when he plays), lalush. Not to forget how hilariously bad Zerg are doing in NA.
I haven't seen Moman since like beta...
Is it too early to add ret to the list? :D
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On September 14 2010 11:12 teamsolid wrote:
Also, for those who are making the baseless argument that Z is fine in Korea, just look at the GSL results.
So far, out of 13 Z, only 5 have advanced into Ro32. On top of that, 4/5 of those Z qualified through either ZvP or ZvZ. Only Idra who completely outmatched his T opponent got through a ZvT. In all other cases, whenever a Z met a T opponent, they were eliminated.
Can someone confirm this? If someone can, I will be a very happy man.
And for all the people who say "of course terran has more wins, there are more of them!", I'm pretty confident there aren't so many of them that they dominate tourneys like this, and the argument of "more people play terran b/c of single player" doesn't not work on pros. However, if someone can give me legit numbers (w/ source), I'd be glad to tear apart my own argument.
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EPT
