Tournament winners since release - Page 16

On September 14 2010 11:21 EliteAzn wrote:


Can someone confirm this? If someone can, I will be a very happy man.

On September 14 2010 11:23 Gomas wrote:
I have to agree with Morrow. Name me some zergs which are on same level as Dimaga or Idra IN ZVZ (!). None? Great.

Now remember all these TvTs u watched in go4scs and ZOTACs? Yeah the ones u all complain about. Tarson winning with Cloud. Morrow losing to Demuslim. Strelok winning with SjoW. I could go on. There is at least 30 names which can easily compete with eachother, when it comes to T.

All that shows, is that there is more good T players atm.

Tbh, i have not yet seen a single zerg apart from Idra (not even dimaga), with macro so perfect like morrows. There is tons of queing going on. Mineral floats etc, all the time. While the Ts (especially morrow) have perfect thought-out builds with 0 quening going on, perfect expansion and depot timings etc.

I have yet to see a zerg buildorder as refined as morrows 5 rax reaper or his TvP 2rax FE. For me, this is the main reason the zerg lose, not imbalance.

On September 14 2010 11:23 Gomas wrote:
I have to agree with Morrow. Name me some zergs which are on same level as Dimaga or Idra IN ZVZ (!). None? Great.

Now remember all these TvTs u watched in go4scs and ZOTACs? Yeah the ones u all complain about. Tarson winning with Cloud. Morrow losing to Demuslim. Strelok winning with SjoW. I could go on. There is at least 30 names which can easily compete with eachother, when it comes to T.

All that shows, is that there is more good T players atm.

Tbh, i have not yet seen a single zerg apart from Idra (not even dimaga), with macro so perfect like morrows. There is tons of queing going on. Mineral floats etc, all the time. While the Ts (especially morrow) have perfect thought-out builds with 0 quening going on, perfect expansion and depot timings etc.

I have yet to see a zerg buildorder as refined as morrows 5 rax reaper or his TvP 2rax FE. For me, this is the main reason the zerg lose, not imbalance.

On September 14 2010 11:23 Gomas wrote:
I have yet to see a zerg buildorder as refined as morrows 5 rax reaper

On September 14 2010 11:26 Sfydjklm wrote:

You have no clue how zerg works.
To put it short and concise- zerg cant have perfect BOs because their BOs rely on their opponents unscoutable strategies.

On September 14 2010 11:31 Gomas wrote:


First of all, they are scoutable. Even two sacrificed overlords is less than 1 scan.

Secondly, the builds I mentioned, work against nearly EVERYTHING, because they are so refined. (and don't tell me that because T is imba -.-) If, zerg took the time to refine their play, they would also find that u can just beat the unscoutable strategies by having a solid all-round startegy which relies on macro, not counters.

On September 14 2010 11:23 Gomas wrote:
I have to agree with Morrow. Name me some zergs which are on same level as Dimaga or Idra IN ZVZ (!). None? Great.

Now remember all these TvTs u watched in go4scs and ZOTACs? Yeah the ones u all complain about. Tarson winning with Cloud. Morrow losing to Demuslim. Strelok winning with SjoW. I could go on. There is at least 30 names which can easily compete with eachother, when it comes to T.

All that shows, is that there is more good T players atm.

Tbh, i have not yet seen a single zerg apart from Idra (not even dimaga), with macro so perfect like morrows. There is tons of queing going on. Mineral floats etc, all the time. While the Ts (especially morrow) have perfect thought-out builds with 0 quening going on, perfect expansion and depot timings etc.

I have yet to see a zerg buildorder as refined as morrows 5 rax reaper or his TvP 2rax FE. For me, this is the main reason the zerg lose, not imbalance.

On September 14 2010 11:31 Gomas wrote:


First of all, they are scoutable. Even two sacrificed overlords is less than 1 scan.

On April 11 2010 20:20 MorroW wrote:
well the sad part is that exactly that @Art_of_Kill forces terran to be the offender against zerg and toss while they always just have to defend.
because once u strike 200 psi and both have many expoes, zerg can remkae 50 roaches in 30 seconnds and toss can warpin units in 5 second while terran must build their units

in sc1 terran 200 psi was stronger than toss 200 psi but toss rebuilt faster, so after a battle toss had to rebuild and then wipe out terran

but in sc2 terran 200 psi is weaker and they rebuild alot slower in comparison to production facilities costs

thats why i hope they do something about this because in theory zerg and toss never has to attack the terran because they know they have an easy ride later game. so they can put larva max to half and that wouldnt change alot except for later game where u actually stop make units as z

its very shallow match up if u know lategame terran always lose. maybe u can balance it and say ok terran have to attack and that is balanced, sure but its not so interesting if we always see terran be the attacker. all races should be able to camp, timing attack and be somewhat equal in the late game, but its not like that at all with sc2

On April 14 2010 23:06 MorroW wrote:
i agree with every single thing OP said

and sorry i dont have any advise for u, i dont know a safe way to fe anymore. in patch5 and before i could rax fe then 6-7 i could marauder fe and now i cant fe. i cant do anything and ive tried everything just like u

its not really just the early game, later game i feel like toss can simply get far better economy because his units r very cost effective

and lategame is just ridiculous, if u reach that toss always wins


the only way terran has been able to win this entire beta stage is through early game, as we r getting worse bio and stronger mech we are now in a position where we lose against everything rather than everything being viable.

demuslim is one of the best terrans in the world and if he comes here and says this, its not just that he has been winning because he been spoiled wins by imba. terran has been worst race and we r getting changes but demuslim were one of few terrans who fought the odds of the mus. if u dont understand the level of play i suggest u to just agree with what he says and if u disagree i suggest u to be silent and accept ur the one whos missing something, not demuslim



u cant really know what toss is doing early game, if u spend 50 on a scan to see what his doing (assuming he built every single tech building near the nexus including with gateways) sure u know what he do, but u cant stop it because u just lost ur mule.
if u dont scan u end up in a scenario where either u get a game rolling ur toss rolls over u because he countered ur build and u had no idea whats coming. simply think its ignorant to say its a 50% chance to win in a mu and this is if u know what toss is doing, a good toss wont let u know that and remember toss ALWAYS knows what ur doing. they r the ones with maphack not us so ur scenario is very unrealistic

On April 14 2010 23:21 MorroW wrote:

if u r 1base vs 1base he can make dts and force u to turn back, force u to build turrets and force u to waste at least 1 scan. u cant afford this on 1base and u cant get a raven either, u also cant really contain a toss with a turret and u cant assume hes going dt and get turrets every game. on top of that you also cant scout it.
and as ur paying for all this shit just to survive he can expand and hes in a great shape.
1base vs 1base toss is stronger, its the truth

On April 15 2010 02:01 DeMusliM wrote:
I can tell we just had a huge influx of protoss players join this thread and fail to see the point.

A terran HAS to make a heavy tier 1-1.5 army just to survive the gateway push - with bunkers the whole lot, pumping every resource he has into this. Meanwhile the protoss can easily expo and out resource the terran - this is the problem - that the terran cannot survive early without getting some kinda force together, while the protoss can can tech even, while pumping out 4 warpgates and immortals while the terrans later tech units make little difference - (Immortals counter all ground terran has, and HT's counter anything that counters the immortal - see the problem late game?).

And i'm not even talking about late game, the problem for terrans right now is surviving the early game without being too far behind mid-late. People who fail to see this are enjoying the easy life of 4 warpgate rushing terrans and winning with relative ease.
I spoke with several top protoss players on Europe who all agreed that the MU right now is very heavily favoured towards the protoss - and the only way they lose is if they make a big mistake micro/macro wise or don't scout (pretty hard not to scout with a obs!).

On April 15 2010 02:02 MorroW wrote:

as it is now im pretty sure sc2 wont last in korea, why? koreans love hard games and sc2 doesnt qualify for that afaik :x


this is basically how i was playing before patch 6 was out, it even raped colosus then
the sad part atm is that it doesnt work now, sentry -2 dmg along with immortal and zea meatshield fucking hard rape this build or they can make fast colosus which also rape it. they can even go mass zea sentry and rape it too :/

On April 17 2010 09:26 MorroW wrote:
the goal is just to create a build that survives and puts up a good fight against anything toss does. just like siege expo in sc1.

if u stop a massgateway u will be ahead and win the game, its a simple thought

the proper way how a rts game should be is that a counter to a safe expo is to expo urself to catch up rather than having a bunch of "C&C db style rock paper scissor" hard counters

im not sure if my build or any tvp build for that matter can defend all cheese yet by "scout and respond rule" but i know its the best so far, since everything else has been failing terribly lately. just watch my reps vs nightend where i desperately tried to play my old 1rax fe xd

so if it now happens to be that u can counter cheese with this build, it doesnt mean pvt is impossible. it just means ur not gonna win easily by going same 1robo3warpgate every game. hopefully this is the first step to counter fe with fe rather than counter fe with rush. if both fe i guess it will turn out to be anyones game. but if terran cant fe then terran cant win because stuff like dts or sentry with force field are just so strong 1base vs 1base that they can let u expand while terran is locked in (5sentry 2immortal and 3 zealot is never ever gonna let u down the ramp). thats why its so important that we need a fe build thats safe against all cheese

im not gonna release any reps and its best if i dont talk about this any more for now because im still not sure how good it is really. but i can imagine it being really strong and ive never lost with it where i executed it correctly yet (im low rating tho). but ill keep u guys posted of my build works or not (as in straight up play, not luck based. not as in win or lose... "without meta game abuse" as nony would say :>)

On September 14 2010 11:31 Gomas wrote:


First of all, they are scoutable. Even two sacrificed overlords is less than 1 scan.

Secondly, the builds I mentioned, work against nearly EVERYTHING, because they are so refined. (and don't tell me that because T is imba -.-) If, zerg took the time to refine their play, they would also find that u can just beat the unscoutable strategies by having a solid all-round startegy which relies on macro, not counters.

On September 14 2010 07:18 LaLuSh wrote:
Perfection is very hard to achieve when the matchup involves such a high degree of guessing for zerg. Even when you scout a certain tech path from the terran, you still cannot be sure what is coming. Yesterday for example (one out of a thousand examples), I scouted a very fast tech starport tech lab switch from brat_ok in a tournament game, and I began making spore crawlers and queens while massing drones. I was sure I was going to come out far ahead. What happens next? He only uses the starport to build 1 banshee. Switches his strat around instantly, builds 1 medivac and 1 thor, drops it on my cliff, completely shuts down mining and easily takes out my expansion hatchery.

There is no way a zerg can account for all these possibilities at the same time. Every terran is unique. Every terran has got their own specialized (and often retarded) transition. Banshee doesn't have to mean banshee. 2 rax doesn't have to mean aggressive infantry build. It might as well mean a nonsensical delayed 2 or 1 port banshee with cloak.

You have all these idiot terrans scoring easy instant wins vs zergs everywhere, because even if you scout their production buildings, half of the time you've still got no fucking clue what they're doing. You scout a barrack constantly producing marines and a starport without addons? Maybe he'll use it for 1 viking and then medivacs. Maybe he'll use it for a fast medivac dropping 8 marines straight into your base. Maybe he's the kind of terran that built another rax in his base and waits for 2 medivacs before dropping you. Maybe he's the kind of retarded terran that waits for so long, that eventually you start making drones again, and in flies 3medivacs fully loaded with units. Sometimes they make a medivac and don't even use it for anything, they just expand and pretend it's a logical strategy.

You make drones and go for the early spire vs the 1 medivac 8 marine drop? You'll take sick damage. You start making units too late vs the 2 medivac drop and even hint at making the spire? You die. You start making units too early vs the 3 medivac drop instead of making the spire, and then suddenly think the coast is clear and proceed into making a round of drones because the drop never seems to come? You die.

You make too many units vs the nonsensical terran that went a 1-1-1 build into an 11-minute mark expand with medivacs and lots of marines before expanding but didn't even drop you ? You die from mining 600 less minerals per minute every subsequent minute.

Even when watching Sen's stream - who I consider to be 20x better than me and a complete monster ZvT - you see him losing instantly to noob terrans after overdroning vs a 3rax or 2rax/hellion all-in, or making too many units vs a faked aggression into fast expand build, or upgrading ling speed before lair and subsequently dying to 2port banshee without even having a fighting chance.

The main reason you see so many zergs getting eliminated so early, is because you have to have sick amount of LUCK to beat 5-6 terrans in a row. It doesn't matter how good and how skilled you are. Beating that many terrans in a row will require more luck than it will require skill.

The point is, there is too much of an element of randomness for zerg in the matchup depending on which tech path they opt for. And it cannot be fixed by simply "scouting better". The difference in win rate from playing a terran ranked #60 as opposed to a terran ranked #5 isn't that great. There's still the ~20% of games where you instantly lose due to a build order/tech path loss, no matter how good/bad your terran opponent is.

Then there are the truly good terrans. The ones of equal skill to you. The ones who'll win at least 50% of the games that reach beyond the "zerg guesses wrong instantly loses" phase.

The win ratio against those terrans won't ever be 50% for zergs. Much like the scrub terrans, the good terrans too will instantly win about ~20% of their games on pure build order errors from zerg. If they win half of the rest of games that puts them at 60% vs the zergs.

For a good terran facing a scrub zerg. There's perhaps a 1% chance of a build order loss. Again, number pulled out of my ass, but I should really think it's single digit, and amongst the lower single digits. You don't see morrow, brat_ok or demuslim losing to scrub zergs, EVER.

TvP, they might lose a higher percentage of games against no name protosses. But not nearly as high as zergs vs terran and protoss.

So what you end up with (poker analogy) is top zergs having to fight their way through 5-6 top pocket pair vs lower pocket pair preflop all-ins without getting drawn out one single time! And of course a couple of other key hands that actually reach the flop, turn and river (normal games where the zerg had some influence on the outcome and didn't instantly lose).

This post was written as a rant from start from finish. Forgive me if it's very incoherent.

On September 14 2010 11:31 Gomas wrote:


First of all, they are scoutable. Even two sacrificed overlords is less than 1 scan.

Secondly, the builds I mentioned, work against nearly EVERYTHING, because they are so refined. (and don't tell me that because T is imba -.-) If, zerg took the time to refine their play, they would also find that u can just beat the unscoutable strategies by having a solid all-round startegy which relies on macro, not counters.

On September 14 2010 11:31 Gomas wrote:


First of all, they are scoutable. Even two sacrificed overlords is less than 1 scan.

Secondly, the builds I mentioned, work against nearly EVERYTHING, because they are so refined. (and don't tell me that because T is imba -.-) If, zerg took the time to refine their play, they would also find that u can just beat the unscoutable strategies by having a solid all-round startegy which relies on macro, not counters.

On September 14 2010 11:35 LaLuSh wrote:

LOL. Only reason I couldn't find more zerg whine is because morrow's post history mysteriously stops in around mid april. All the zerg whining took place in March and early April. Then roach armor and supply got nerfed along with 2x nerf of hydras and a bunch of other things.

I only had to check 3 threads to find whine similar to zergs' whine though.

I distinctly remember morrow doing lots of crying instead of just "playing the game", as is usually morrow's advice to zerg players nowadays.

Protoss 1base vs Terran 1base is imbalanced =) You can't go raven ^^ "Need ways to FE safely". hahaha. Guess what, zerg needs ways to FE safely too!

On September 14 2010 11:31 Gomas wrote:


First of all, they are scoutable. Even two sacrificed overlords is less than 1 scan.

Secondly, the builds I mentioned, work against nearly EVERYTHING, because they are so refined. (and don't tell me that because T is imba -.-) If, zerg took the time to refine their play, they would also find that u can just beat the unscoutable strategies by having a solid all-round startegy which relies on macro, not counters.

On September 14 2010 11:39 Sfydjklm wrote:
You must be mentally challenged.

Now that guy tells me to be inventive? No sir, screw you.