On September 11 2010 01:57 Chill wrote:...just a general lack of urgency.
I think this is the key. There is just far too much dead time in general, where Tasteless goes "...yeah.", and everything just stops for up to five seconds. I love the anecdotes, I love the humor, I love the friendliness... it's just lacking that zest most of the time.
They need to find a way to fill the times when there's not much going on outside of the bases. For instance, if, say, Day[9] sees a zerg player put down a gas before pool, he would talk about how the zerg expects an early reaper build and wants speed, and what he could transition into and why -- all during a lull in the action where there normally wouldn't be too much to say, and with an incredible amount of enthusiasm. Whereas Tastosis would just say "zerg getting an early gas..." as if it was the most boring thing in the world, trail off, and struggle to figure out something to continue with. Interestingly enough, I feel this was somewhat improved when TLO used his Hellion build, a build they knew of ahead of time.
It's almost like they're bored with the game until big battles are imminent.
Am I the only one that likes the jerkiness? I don't htink he shows ENOUGH of what's going on! None of it bothers me...
I think they massively overemphasize things though. For example, if Zerg loses maybe 4 drones when he's around ~25 harvesters, they'll say something like "oh, he's in huge trouble now! Zerg is SOOO far behind!" Considering it's acceptable to lose 2-3 drones from a harass oriented build, losing a few extra isn't huge. They overexaggerate everything. Also in the TLO game vs Cosira or w/e when the hellions were only at 6 kills they were talking about how they didn't think he could come back... of course you can come back you're not even THAT far in the shitter vs hellion openings losing 6 drones (definitely disadvantage) because you're typically pumping drones duringa hellion harass, not units. Although I admit once it got around 9 or however many drones it was looking a lot more dire.
I figured I might as well put what I put on the GOM forums over here.
iCCup.Diamond wrote After watching the GSL for several days I strongly feel there is some improvements that GOM can make to their broadcasts and I would like to point them out for you in hopes you read this thread.
First and foremost let me introduce myself, I am Patrick F Soulliere II, better known as iCCup.Diamond, the CEO of iCCup TV. iCCup TV is one of, if not the largest Starcraft II broadcasts networks in the world for Starcraft II. We have a network of over 20 channels and are considered one of the top channels for presentation value and quality of casts.
With that in mind there is a couple things I think the GSL is missing and they are the following:
1: Dedicated English speaking observer. The job to commentate is very hard and I understand as much as anyone. With all the great observer features in Starcraft II there is no reason that Tastless and Artosis should be controlling the camera for the stream. What you really need (especially in a tournament this large) is a dedicated observer. You can still have Nick's computer be the one shown on the stream, just have someone there to act as the primary observer. Tastleless can just at the start of the game just select the observer and let it follow his view. The great thing about this is both you can break the observers camera at any time if they see something being missed and also still click on what they like. I feel like Tastless is spending too much time worrying about being the observer and not enough on casting. There is no reason in a tournament this large that the casters should have to do this. This is the single biggest issue you have, and if need be hire and American that understands the game on a high level and get him there ASAP.
2: Production Tab. 99.99% of the time the production tab should be open. This is both beneficial to the casters AND the viewer. There is often 20+ things being made in a game of Starcraft II and it is beyond easy to things on both ends. The production tab allows both sides to see everything that is going on at all times. I have personally talked to Artosis about this and I have noticed him using it more. It should be the standard and up more often than not.
3: Zooming in and out. It needs to stop. It just throws everything off, and is only further distracts the casters. It was our single biggest complaint when we started and now we have a strict no zoom policy at iCCup TV, it should be the same for GOM.
4: The V button. The V button should more commonly be used on the stream. It allows the viewers to see what he players can see. EXTREMELY useful tool and needs to be used more.
There is some other things, but these are the main things that need to be addressed. One of our casters named Raelcun has made a caster tutorial and I think some of the points in there may help you guys out.
I am available for any questions or comments you may have. Artosis has my personal contact info, and my email is iccup.diamond(at)gmail.com. Replace (at) with an @.
Thanks for your time and I hope you see this!
I really think point 1 will smooth out ALOT ALOT ALOT ALOT of these issues personally.
If you agree please take the time to post on the GOM forums here.
To be fair, I don't want something like Day[9]'s in-depth explanations casting the GSL. That has a place in his dailies and no place (for me) in something like the GSL. I prefer closer to Tastosis' style.
The worst for me is when something crazy is happening and I can actually hear the Koreans screaming in the background.
On September 11 2010 02:22 Chill wrote: To be fair, I don't want something like Day[9]'s in-depth explanations casting the GSL. That has a place in his dailies and no place (for me) in something like the GSL. I prefer closer to Tastosis' style.
The worst for me is when something crazy is happening and I can actually hear the Koreans screaming in the background.
Double agreed. They need to figure out how to stop the Korean commentators from coming through the mic. It's SUPER annoying.
If you listen to Day9 closely you will notice his styles for doing his daily's and his style for live casting are very different. I for one am glad for this, as his style for daily's would not work very well for live events.
On September 11 2010 02:22 Chill wrote: To be fair, I don't want something like Day[9]'s in-depth explanations casting the GSL. That has a place in his dailies and no place (for me) in something like the GSL. I prefer closer to Tastosis' style.
That's true, and it's something that I definitely don't have a problem with. I just used Day9 as an example of a way to keep the commentary interesting instead of nearly dying off -- there are definitely other ways to fill that potentially dead time.
On September 11 2010 02:22 Chill wrote: To be fair, I don't want something like Day[9]'s in-depth explanations casting the GSL. That has a place in his dailies and no place (for me) in something like the GSL. I prefer closer to Tastosis' style.
The worst for me is when something crazy is happening and I can actually hear the Koreans screaming in the background.
Double agreed. They need to figure out how to stop the Korean commentators from coming through the mic. It's SUPER annoying.
If you listen to Day9 closely you will notice his styles for doing his daily's and his style for live casting are very different. I for one am glad for this, as his style for daily's would not work very well for live events.
Yea, of course. Day[9] is smart and can change his style easily. My comment isn't in reference to him. It's the people who cite "Day[9] would say this and this and this" without realizing that he actually would never say that in a cast like the GSL.
My Korean comment means it sucks because it reminds me how calm Tastosis are when I can hear the Koreans screaming in the background over the calm English casters.
iCCup.Diamond wrote After watching the GSL for several days I strongly feel there is some improvements that GOM can make to their broadcasts and I would like to point them out for you in hopes you read this thread.
First and foremost let me introduce myself, I am Patrick F Soulliere II, better known as iCCup.Diamond, the CEO of iCCup TV. iCCup TV is one of, if not the largest Starcraft II broadcasts networks in the world for Starcraft II. We have a network of over 20 channels and are considered one of the top channels for presentation value and quality of casts.
With that in mind there is a couple things I think the GSL is missing and they are the following:
1: Dedicated English speaking observer. The job to commentate is very hard and I understand as much as anyone. With all the great observer features in Starcraft II there is no reason that Tastless and Artosis should be controlling the camera for the stream. What you really need (especially in a tournament this large) is a dedicated observer. You can still have Nick's computer be the one shown on the stream, just have someone there to act as the primary observer. Tastleless can just at the start of the game just select the observer and let it follow his view. The great thing about this is both you can break the observers camera at any time if they see something being missed and also still click on what they like. I feel like Tastless is spending too much time worrying about being the observer and not enough on casting. There is no reason in a tournament this large that the casters should have to do this. This is the single biggest issue you have, and if need be hire and American that understands the game on a high level and get him there ASAP.
2: Production Tab. 99.99% of the time the production tab should be open. This is both beneficial to the casters AND the viewer. There is often 20+ things being made in a game of Starcraft II and it is beyond easy to things on both ends. The production tab allows both sides to see everything that is going on at all times. I have personally talked to Artosis about this and I have noticed him using it more. It should be the standard and up more often than not.
3: Zooming in and out. It needs to stop. It just throws everything off, and is only further distracts the casters. It was our single biggest complaint when we started and now we have a strict no zoom policy at iCCup TV, it should be the same for GOM.
4: The V button. The V button should more commonly be used on the stream. It allows the viewers to see what he players can see. EXTREMELY useful tool and needs to be used more.
There is some other things, but these are the main things that need to be addressed. One of our casters named Raelcun has made a caster tutorial and I think some of the points in there may help you guys out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LnVzl7AYC8
I am available for any questions or comments you may have. Artosis has my personal contact info, and my email is iccup.diamond(at)gmail.com. Replace (at) with an @.
Thanks for your time and I hope you see this!
I really think point 1 will smooth out ALOT ALOT ALOT ALOT of these issues personally.
If you agree please take the time to post on the GOM forums here.
Totally agree, and I think someone has made a thread about how to obs a game.
I sort of like their laid back style. A lot of casters have a habit of just saying nonsense when they start speaking really quickly and loudly. I imagine it's difficult do that and that same time remain cogent.
Many people enjoy the the korean casters' enthusiasm, but most of us also don't understand what they're saying. Like nony posted, a lot of it is laughable (I don't mean to imply that I understand korean or anything).
Let me preface these comments by says that today's casting was a great improvement.
Much smoother camera control; Production Tab open a lot more; much less zooming in.
I come to SC2 with no prior knowledge of SC:BW - I didn't play it and I never watched a cast of it. I have, however, watched a LOT of SC2 casts - I'd say 90% of the tourney's since early Beta.
Throughout Beta there were a lot of posts and comments in stream chats and IRC about Tasteless and his SC:BW castings. So I came to the GSL Tourney with seriously high expectations of his casting and was disappointed to be honest.
I take on board all the previous comments in this thread about both casting and camera control being problematic, but I honestly feel he could have done a lot better.
This GOM TV gig has been on the cards for a long time. As soon as KeSPA lost their rights and GOM were given them by Blizzard the rumour mill has been working overtime on this board about Tasteless getting a casting contract with GOM. Tasteless himself alluded to it a few months ago - so it came as no surprise to me that he became their English Caster.
He seems to have been woefully under-prepared.
Unlike some, I don't expect a full bio of every player in the 64, and maybe he didn't know he was going to be the camera operator on the first day - BUT he did know he was going to be casting SC2 and he does know that it's his job to cater for all levels of players including complete newcomers to the game who may have only been playing for the month since retail.
It is important to me and (I assume others) watching the 640 x ?? HQ or SQ stream is what we can actually see of the game. I have paid for the HQ and can only just see the food numbers at 150% stream size - if I blow it up to full screen the pixelation is too much and the numbers are unreadable - it's the same for the unit numbers.
By his own admission Tasteless (and I believe Artosis) plays/ladders on extremely low graphic settings - and advised us to do the same when playing. As a result Tasteless has seemed mesmerised by the graphics on the Ultra setting, and doesn't appreciate that we cannot see those gorgeous graphics on the same 24" monitor he has. Of course, it's nice to zoom in on nice map features at the beginning of the game when there is little play - but I for one don't need to see an extreme close up of the Colossus splash damage on a bunker, when a) we can't actually see that splash damage anyway and b) it's very useful to know what the defending player is doing to defend his base!
Time and a place for Zoom - the midst of battle is not the time or place in my opinion.
It might be useful for both Artosis and Tasteless to watch one of the recent VODs of their casts - just so they get an idea of the stream quality we are watching!
Once Tasteless knew he was in charge of the camera he should have learned and practised all the observer hot-keys. I'll bet you that he knows all the player hot-keys for all the races - he just needs to put in a bit of time learning the Obs ones. At worst he could have a post it stuck to the side of the monitor with them listed!
Today was day 6 and he still didn't know even the basic ones - that I'm afraid is just not good enough. This is a big gig - the biggest SC2 competitor in the world - and I expect the basics to be covered.
Finally, I appreciate that he's casted and played SC:BW for 11+ years and, is still in SC:BW caster mode BUT, he should have the names of the SC2 units and structures memorised by now - It's no use giving newcomer advice about mules and sinking Supply Depots and then continually talking about Dragoons, Lurkers, Sunken Colonies and Stasis Fields - this is very confusing for a new player. This is a minor irk though.
Overall I really like the Tasteless & Artosis team, but there are one or two areas that could be improved.
Tastless - if you ever read this; please take this in the way it's been meant, as constructive criticism to hopefully enhance my enjoyment of your casting.
On September 11 2010 02:22 Chill wrote: To be fair, I don't want something like Day[9]'s in-depth explanations casting the GSL. That has a place in his dailies and no place (for me) in something like the GSL. I prefer closer to Tastosis' style.
The worst for me is when something crazy is happening and I can actually hear the Koreans screaming in the background.
Double agreed. They need to figure out how to stop the Korean commentators from coming through the mic. It's SUPER annoying.
If you listen to Day9 closely you will notice his styles for doing his daily's and his style for live casting are very different. I for one am glad for this, as his style for daily's would not work very well for live events.
Yea, of course. Day[9] is smart and can change his style easily. My comment isn't in reference to him. It's the people who cite "Day[9] would say this and this and this" without realizing that he actually would never say that in a cast like the GSL.
My Korean comment means it sucks because it reminds me how calm Tastosis are when I can hear the Koreans screaming in the background over the calm English casters.
For sure. Most people that have never casted before don't realize the little things like this. I'm glad you pointed it out.
Yeah. Sort of interesting in GOM Season 3 they have to move the English booth because Tasteless was too loud. I like the more laid back style personally, he still gets excited when need be but I don't have to turn down my speakers before every major battle now !
On September 11 2010 02:22 Chill wrote: To be fair, I don't want something like Day[9]'s in-depth explanations casting the GSL. That has a place in his dailies and no place (for me) in something like the GSL. I prefer closer to Tastosis' style.
The worst for me is when something crazy is happening and I can actually hear the Koreans screaming in the background.
Double agreed. They need to figure out how to stop the Korean commentators from coming through the mic. It's SUPER annoying.
If you listen to Day9 closely you will notice his styles for doing his daily's and his style for live casting are very different. I for one am glad for this, as his style for daily's would not work very well for live events.
Yea, of course. Day[9] is smart and can change his style easily. My comment isn't in reference to him. It's the people who cite "Day[9] would say this and this and this" without realizing that he actually would never say that in a cast like the GSL.
My Korean comment means it sucks because it reminds me how calm Tastosis are when I can hear the Koreans screaming in the background over the calm English casters.
And as soon as they star screaming like the koreans, this forum is gonna be flooded with ppl complaining they shouldn't scream like that hehehehehe
On September 11 2010 02:22 Chill wrote: To be fair, I don't want something like Day[9]'s in-depth explanations casting the GSL. That has a place in his dailies and no place (for me) in something like the GSL. I prefer closer to Tastosis' style.
The worst for me is when something crazy is happening and I can actually hear the Koreans screaming in the background.
Double agreed. They need to figure out how to stop the Korean commentators from coming through the mic. It's SUPER annoying.
If you listen to Day9 closely you will notice his styles for doing his daily's and his style for live casting are very different. I for one am glad for this, as his style for daily's would not work very well for live events.
Yea, of course. Day[9] is smart and can change his style easily. My comment isn't in reference to him. It's the people who cite "Day[9] would say this and this and this" without realizing that he actually would never say that in a cast like the GSL.
My Korean comment means it sucks because it reminds me how calm Tastosis are when I can hear the Koreans screaming in the background over the calm English casters.
And as soon as they star screaming like the koreans, this forum is gonna be flooded with ppl complaining they shouldn't scream like that hehehehehe
It's true - You can't win in the cold game of video game nerd commentary The best you can do is just barely lose.
On September 11 2010 02:28 CTStalker wrote: I sort of like their laid back style. A lot of casters have a habit of just saying nonsense when they start speaking really quickly and loudly. I imagine it's difficult do that and that same time remain cogent.
Many people enjoy the the korean casters' enthusiasm, but most of us also don't understand what they're saying. Like nony posted, a lot of it is laughable (I don't mean to imply that I understand korean or anything).
Yeah, gotta agree. Man, all the bitching about artosis/tasteless, yeah its def not perfect at the very start of sc2 gom tv but I really really enjoy it <3
On September 10 2010 07:09 The Vortex wrote: I don't think Tasteless has done his homework on SC2. I think by the time the GSL finishes he will have it down. Husky and HD have been doing a great job from the start!
Seriously? He's still playing random so he will know all of the match ups, and probably because he likes randumb . Yeah it's not as in depth as Day9, or as honky as husky's but Jesus LOL.
I havn't been watching gomTV, but I think this is an okay-good example of hype and awesome shout casting. Good shout casting can make a boring game look amazing, and bad shout casting can make an amazing game look boring.
Lets be honest, Tastosis on day 1 was excruciating... i felt like I was watching a hdh youtube video, but just add in a fuckton of awkward silences and pauses. it was pretty bad
BUT I can understand 100% how hard it is to do what they are doing, and ALOT of the awkwardness comes from having to follow around the korean commentators, and having camera / sound men who cant communicate with them.
now, a week later, they have vastly improved, and gotten used to their situation. They fill time better, they are more comfortable and funny, and have improved a ton with the camera, and this is only going to get better...
By the start of GSL open 2 Tastosis will be the standard that other live event caster will try to live up to.
On September 10 2010 21:04 Hider wrote: It is without doubt IMO the commentators job to analyze the game. And a part of analyzing the game is knowing something about the players. Obv. you cant know a lot about random korean players, but tell me their ranking on the ladder or something like that. And regarding the more famours players, I dont think it would be too much to ask if they watched a couple of replays of them so they knew how they typically played the MU.
ladder rank doesnt matter anything... if you are top 1 or top 10 diamond, it can be miles and miles apart in skill level.
They do talk a lot about OGS, Werra, Prime clan etc etc. They were talking aout Spunky from OGS and what he did before being coach/manager of OGS when a OGS player was playing. They bring a lot of inside info that us foreigners dont know much about (unless you are *really* reading forums/stuff for hours and hours).
Obv. you dont understand the word anything. Wanna bet there is a correlation between the skill of player and their number of ladder point??
On September 11 2010 02:03 latan wrote: being a total noob in the scene i find it hard to believe how tasteless is such a casting legend.
Seconded. I watch a lot of my local sports team on TV (including USS D-2 teams) so I am used to low-budget, semi-pro commentary. But for guys being payed to commentate, I was very much underwhelmed. But I find their chemistry decent and prefer it than just watching w/o commentary, just confused as to why they are held in such a high regard my some people.
See, this is what people are talking about when they say "take it seriously, act professional". Yeah it's fine for people who know who Tasteless is and where he came from to listen to him tell jokes for 2 hours, but it has nothing to do with what is expected of any kind of sports commentator. he does give that feeling of "it's like talking to my friend" conversation, but only if you've been following Starcraft for years. New people have no point of reference, and it's jarring. We're trying to grow e-sports here, right?
Also, although I agree with Noony for the most part, I gotta disagree with him on the idea of commentators as reporters/journalists. I think as casters they are expected to fill this role to a degree. No, I don't think they have the time or ability to interview everyone in the Ro64, but they should at least prepare. Not knowing who is playing that day, on top of not knowing how to use the interface or even the correct terms to use, is very disappointing to me as a sports fan in general and an e-sports fan in particular. Tasteless has not improved from back when he was that pro guy with the cool insights that came up to the commentator booth at the one tournament a long time ago. Either that or he improved and regressed and I just missed it, but I watched most of the GOM tourneys with SDM, so I don't think so.
I hate to say it because it's like -100 cool points or whatever, but if I wanted to get someone with no RTS background into watching SC2, i'd probably direct them to HDH before Tasteless/Artosis. HDH is far from ideal and do some things that still irk me, but they're actually a lot closer to "real" sports commentating (which is also often inaccurate in terms of in-game knowledge) than Tasteless currently is.
Last night seemed like an improvement, so we'll see. Not every game can have TLO though.
I don't think I can or even will advice him on his commentating. I just think he does a really nice job in making the games entertaining to watch (Which is their primary mission).
Only one thing, which has already been mentioned, they should really get a professional observer and not be allowed to obs anything else themselves. This will: 1: Allow tasteless to focus on what he is supposed to be talking about 2: Make both ONLY talk about what the viewers see on the screen.
EPT
! 
The best you can do is just barely lose.
