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Angra
United States2652 Posts
Not to mention, you could block ramps with only 2 zealots/marines/SCVs in BW, and it's impossible to do that in SC2, hence why walling is seen so much more. I really don't think walling is any reason at all for why zerg is considered "underpowered" currently. EDIT: Zerg didn't have tier 1 ranged units in BW either. Protoss didn't either, and they don't in SC2 as well. | ||
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tok
United States691 Posts
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
On September 09 2010 10:13 tok wrote: I recently switched back to zerg after playing terran/random during launch, and zerg in beta. I got knocked down from plat to gold after only 1 day of ladder only winning 4/14 games. The sad thing is the opponent can build 1 unit the entire game and still win, and theres no way to scout the enemies base once they get their first unit out. thats more of an example of your lack of skill with the zerg race rather then an example of how underpowered zerg is. despite zerg having its problems, losing to an army made of only 1 type of unit, means you obvoiusly dont understand how to combat simple army compositions with the zerg units. | ||
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St. Fu
United States75 Posts
On September 09 2010 09:43 OwlFeet wrote: How about a melee ranged unit that has the sole purpose of melting buildings. Oh you are walling in, Piyaaa, taste the back of my crystal fist. Edit: melee-ranged ie 0 or 1 or whatever a zergling is Yeah, they're called banelings. >.> | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
Yea that was his point. To bad he failed to state that this works on shitty wall ins and not against anyone of any real skill or preparation. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
Creep Mechanic/Units too slow off-creep Well, pretty self-explanatory I guess: Roaches, Hydras etc. are just too slow off-creep, which makes the creep-mechanic more of a defensive ability, at least earlier in the game. Wall-in's/Force-Fields Zerg just is not able to take advantage of one of their few fast Units, the Speedling, because runby's, backstabs etc. are a thing of the past thanks to IMBA force-fields on the ramp or wall-in's. Because of that, early pressure by the other races often cannot be punished, which effectively turns attacks that should be all-in's (and are as powerful as all-in's), into pretty solid BO's (4 warpgate-push is the best example IMHO), because Zerg can't counterattack nor backstab the opponent when his army moves out. Bad T1/T1.5 ranged Units With roaches being the only ranged T1-Unit, that is extremely slow off-creep and only has 3 range, you simply can't punish the opponent for walling in. You should be able to attack a wall-in if you choose to go for an aggressive strategy, like Hydras could in SC:BW. This way the wall-in would hinder the opponents own Units from attacking down the ramp and would therefore at least have 1 disadvantage. Against all the other races, I just would not recommend walling in, cuz as soon as stuff like Marauders, Stalkers, immortals etc. have vision up the cliff, your wall-in get's torn down. This especially makes counterattacks abolutely bad. Even at T2 with the Hydra, the slow movement-speed of 'em will make a counterattack up the ramp futile. Zerglings being too weak With Zerglings doing very low DPS compared to other T1/T1.5-Units, having no range, no Armor, very few health etc, Zerg is just always on the back-foot early on. The other Races have very strong Units and different builds early on against which Zerglings almost always loose (forward 2-gate Zealots, Reapers, Hellions). Because of that, you pretty much have to rely on the "defenders-advantage" (faster reinforcement, faster on creep, having queens to help out or even the drones etc.) to have any chance of surviving the early-game. Zerglings can't even backstab anymore to force the opponent to retreat when attacking early, as described above. If that's not enough: Zerglings are just sooo bad at destroying destructable rocks, so even on Maps like Blistering/Kulas, Counterattacking/Backstabbing with Zerglings is extremely hard to do. | ||
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asdfjh
Canada230 Posts
its really hard to early wall on maps like scrap station | ||
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Zerksys
United States569 Posts
On September 09 2010 10:20 TyrantPotato wrote: thats more of an example of your lack of skill with the zerg race rather then an example of how underpowered zerg is. despite zerg having its problems, losing to an army made of only 1 type of unit, means you obvoiusly dont understand how to combat simple army compositions with the zerg units. It may have something to do with his lack of skill, but you have to realize that terran can basically just sit back and make hellions and/or reapers and have a shot of winning if they catch their opponent off guard (very easy with wall in and lack of scouting possibilities). I could see 1 rax with a tech lab I'm not going to automatically think reapers. I'm going to think hey he could be going either mauraders or reapers and if I guess wrong I'm screwed. | ||
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Mr.Minionman
United States164 Posts
aggressive play doesn't imply that you have to kill your opponent, just that you are aggresively keeping them in their base. If they are afraid to leave their base, then your aggresion is working, and you should be rewarded with an expansion ASAP. | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
On September 09 2010 09:46 MamiyaOtaru wrote: I still QQ about this: ![[image loading]](http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/5388/zergtechtreejune2009.jpg) omfg that looks awesome why the f did they change it? | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On September 09 2010 10:28 guitarizt wrote: omfg that looks awesome why the f did they change it? I'll have wet dreams about that tonight! ^^' | ||
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OHtRUe
United States283 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=149330 | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On September 09 2010 10:12 Angra wrote: The reason pro BW players don't wall in as much as you see in SC2 against zerg is because they're able to handle any kind of ling all-ins and what have you without the walling. It's a lot easier to plug chokes in BW with units, and it's a bit more difficult to handle without a wall in SC2 because of how much faster lings are and how good they are at auto-surrounding, at least in the early game. Not to mention, you could block ramps with only 2 zealots/marines/SCVs in BW, and it's impossible to do that in SC2, hence why walling is seen so much more. I really don't think walling is any reason at all for why zerg is considered "underpowered" currently. EDIT: Zerg didn't have tier 1 ranged units in BW either. Protoss didn't either, and they don't in SC2 as well. Tier 1.5, an arbitrary number... don't be intentionally thick. It's still early game. And by range you mean something that can threaten a wall. Hydras and Dragoons could both, and routinely did, facilitate this function. '' On September 09 2010 10:28 guitarizt wrote: omfg that looks awesome why the f did they change it? "banelings and lurkers are redundant!" I hate blizzard  I love that tech tree much much more. | ||
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Zerksys
United States569 Posts
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BadWithNames
United States441 Posts
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
On September 09 2010 10:26 Zerksys wrote: It may have something to do with his lack of skill, but you have to realize that terran can basically just sit back and make hellions and/or reapers and have a shot of winning if they catch their opponent off guard (very easy with wall in and lack of scouting possibilities). I could see 1 rax with a tech lab I'm not going to automatically think reapers. I'm going to think hey he could be going either mauraders or reapers and if I guess wrong I'm screwed. im sorry if you misread my post. i didnt mean any offense by it, he went from plat to gold level so i presume his macro mechanics aren't developed yet, and its a wide known fact zerg is the hardest race for lower level players so all implied was hes problems would most likely come from inconsistant larva injections,lack of creep spread, and expanding and droning at optimal times. and not understanding how to pull off effective flanks and what not to combat enemy army compositions. im heavily on the bagwagon of the Terran being the perfect race and the other two playing catch up. BUT people need to know the difference between losing because of imbalance, or losing because they were out played or made a mistake. the imbalance's between terran and zerg, are mainly only going to effect the game at top top levels. people who aren't top level which include my self and many many others on this forum, often the reason we lose is because the preconceptions of imbalance we put in our head leading us to put our selves into positions that will cause us to lose a game. Sure, its easier to play as Terran or Protoss compared to zerg, but that doesn't mean playing zerg is a lost hope. i play zerg, although i believe ZvT is slightly broken right now, i still win about 60% of my ZvT games, why. because alot of the time im a better player then the T player im playing against. and often T players i play against when their one base strat fails they often dont know how to play a macro game against 3+ bases i have. and since i have played zerg since the begining, i know how to keep 3+ bases running, keeping my minerals low and what not. When i lose to reapers i dont say 'OMFG IMBA FK THIS GAME" i simply look at the replay check what time the reapers started their assualt, and open up some practice game and keep looking at ideas to beat it. and even when this reaper buissness die's down, there's still hellions. not as IMBA!!!@!@!@!@!! but they still can do some seroius damage, in some cases more damage then reapers would. are we all going to go cry imba the no. but most the times i lose to reapers, is because i failed at my micro, made a mistake, and thats my fault. not blizzards for making an imbalanced game. amen hahahahaha | ||
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pwadoc
271 Posts
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Yokoblue
Canada594 Posts
Terran has a lot of harassing unit... Yes Protoss dont have any harassing unit... beside the warprism... which is a transport and everybody can get a transport at this point. Zerg dont have too The thing you dont seem to understand is that somebody who wall in with little to no unit give you map control... Map control = power... Zerg can expend freely + if the opponent army try to get out... they get snipe by 30 zerglings... Learn to get the map control and expend like crazy and u wont even bother the wall in. Btw: A good zerg who wall with 4-5 spine crawler + slings can kill everything u send at him... so stop whining about things and not others... every race has its advantage. | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On September 09 2010 10:43 Yokoblue wrote: IMO you're all whining for nothing... Terran has a lot of harassing unit... Yes Protoss dont have any harassing unit... beside the warprism... which is a transport and everybody can get a transport at this point. Zerg dont have too The thing you dont seem to understand is that somebody who wall in with little to no unit give you map control... Map control = power... Zerg can expend freely + if the opponent army try to get out... they get snipe by 30 zerglings... Learn to get the map control and expend like crazy and u wont even bother the wall in. Btw: A good zerg who wall with 4-5 spine crawler + slings can kill everything u send at him... so stop whining about things and not others... every race has its advantage. My goodness you have no clue what you're talking about..... Not only is that 30 zling completely unrealistic but really, zerg has to spend money in order to get ready for a counter...and oddly enough even when T in particular walls in they can still exert a startling amount of influence. Again nobody of any note really cares about wall ins. Zerg just have a lacking pre-lair game | ||
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Otakusan
United States59 Posts
On September 09 2010 09:59 RavenNevermore wrote: I just dislike having no other options. I don't like that I have to constantly on my toes about harassment and drops, while being unable to lay any meaningful form of pressure on the opponent until the mid-late game. This sounds eerily like something we used to know... ... oh yeah! SC1 Terran! And remember, if you defend a harassment from your opponent well, you generally pull ahead and gain the momentum, even if ever-so-slightly. And Zerg has the highest potential in economy. | ||
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