EPTPacifying the Zerg - Page 3
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Pyre
United States1940 Posts
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On September 09 2010 10:43 Yokoblue wrote: IMO you're all whining for nothing... Terran has a lot of harassing unit... Yes Protoss dont have any harassing unit... beside the warprism... which is a transport and everybody can get a transport at this point. Zerg dont have too The thing you dont seem to understand is that somebody who wall in with little to no unit give you map control... Map control = power... Zerg can expend freely + if the opponent army try to get out... they get snipe by 30 zerglings... Learn to get the map control and expend like crazy and u wont even bother the wall in. Btw: A good zerg who wall with 4-5 spine crawler + slings can kill everything u send at him... so stop whining about things and not others... every race has its advantage. wow, u really have no clue, do u? | ||
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
On September 09 2010 10:34 Jayme wrote: Tier 1.5, an arbitrary number... don't be intentionally thick. It's still early game. And by range you mean something that can threaten a wall. Hydras and Dragoons could both, and routinely did, facilitate this function. I left out hydras and dragoons from tier 1 because I assumed that since the OP didn't mention roaches at all, he didn't consider them to be tier 1, considering his entire argument is "zerg has no tier 1 ranged unit". | ||
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Eiserne
United States340 Posts
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McFoo
United Kingdom180 Posts
Wall-ins make it difficult for zergs to be extremely aggressive early, in fact they have very limited options. There is the baneling bust which you mentioned. There is also the 5-Roach-Rush build. It's fairly standard for zerg to get early speedlings. If zerg has a group of speedlings sitting at the bottom of the opponent's ramp who is being the agressor and who is playing passive? The guy behind the wall-in is the passive player. The zerg is playing aggressive by seizing map control with his speedlings (until the opponent decides to push out). When Zerg gets to t2 their options open up mostly with the mutalisk. I've seen plenty of games where the main part of the Zerg's strategy is to get mutalisks for harrass and map control so they can take extra bases and gain an advantage for when the opponent breaks out of that turtle. Actually, the cute harrass units aside, I think Zerg is probably the most aggressive race. How many cannons, turrets and bunkers (static defenses to deflect aggression) are used against Z as opposed to spine/spore crawlers used by Z? Zerg might get a couple of spine crawlers if he scouts an early push and a few more if the push is later/larger. Cannons, turrets and bunkers are staples. Protoss and Terran are much more defensive. They turtle until they get to that timing to "push", whereas zerg is based on constant aggression: they keep on aggressively expanding and gaining map control so that they can deal with those pushes. Protoss/terran need units like hellions, reapers, DTs, dropships etc. to make up for their lack of aggression. | ||
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MegaBUD
Canada179 Posts
On September 09 2010 09:46 MamiyaOtaru wrote: I still QQ about this: ![[image loading]](http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/5388/zergtechtreejune2009.jpg) hydra tier1.5? that would be great! no armored units... all in reaper/hellion! | ||
Antoine
United States7481 Posts
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Azile
United States339 Posts
On September 09 2010 10:43 Yokoblue wrote: IMO you're all whining for nothing... Terran has a lot of harassing unit... Yes Protoss dont have any harassing unit... beside the warprism... which is a transport and everybody can get a transport at this point. Zerg dont have too The thing you dont seem to understand is that somebody who wall in with little to no unit give you map control... Map control = power... Zerg can expend freely + if the opponent army try to get out... they get snipe by 30 zerglings... Learn to get the map control and expend like crazy and u wont even bother the wall in. Btw: A good zerg who wall with 4-5 spine crawler + slings can kill everything u send at him... so stop whining about things and not others... every race has its advantage. Jesus man.. this kind of keyboard vomit is the the reason I avoid the bnet forums and choose to come here instead.. really? Are you even playing the same game I am? I agree with the OP about wallins killing aggression, but that will never be changed and it's not just wallins anyway. It's creep dynamics, roaches being countered and out-ranged by everyone and their fucking mother, and the ridiculous strength of 1-base t/p compared to 1-base zerg. | ||
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Antares777
United States1971 Posts
On September 09 2010 10:11 berzerger wrote: %100 agreed to OP. zerg early aggresion is a joke compared to other races. (this comes from watching pro-games not my level of play) and even zerg does early aggresion hence the economic brakedown. ^dito. The roach should have a range upgrade researchable at tier 2 and the speed upgrade should be at tier 1. | ||
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Yokoblue
Canada594 Posts
On September 09 2010 10:45 Jayme wrote: My goodness you have no clue what you're talking about..... Not only is that 30 zling completely unrealistic but really, zerg has to spend money in order to get ready for a counter...and oddly enough even when T in particular walls in they can still exert a startling amount of influence. Again nobody of any note really cares about wall ins. Zerg just have a lacking pre-lair game I used to play zerg before so I know what im talking about. U can easily defend any Protoss push with lings and crawlers if you want... Look at dimaga Tier 3 rush... Damn if he can rush to tier 3 you can easily rush to tier 2 dont u think ? Against terran its completely different... I had a hard time againts Terran but against protoss you dont have to whine. If he FE u double FE 1gold 1 natural if he 4 gate... you get macro advantage with crawlers and good zling control. | ||
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SoLaR[i.C]
United States2969 Posts
The bottom line is that zerg CAN be aggressive; it simply requires the right timing and aggressive spreading of creep. I watch Cool aka Fruitseller smash on people with basic units all the time regardless of wall in or not. I'm pretty sure he crushed EternalPrime with nothing but zerglings and roaches over the course of two games just yesterday. | ||
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Alexstrasas
302 Posts
n Starcraft 2, any player who doesn't wall in versus a Zerg is throwing away a very major advantage. This allows the enemy player to: -Dictate the pace of the game -Harass and Macro with near impunity -Speed Tech to Tier 3 -Deny Scouting easily This is just more whine but with a good looking structure and some screenshots. What happens on blistering sands if a terran isnt watching the backdoor rocks and the zerg breaks them and enters the base? This is what would happen every game if you were not able to wall off. You obviously have no ideia what you are talking about, playing vs a zerg without a wall doesnt work. Also while we are walling off zergs are building a free expansion so get a grip and stop crying. Also these QQ about terran harass are rediclous. You need to do serious damage to the zerg on the first 10 minutes otherwise there is going to be fucken mutas everywere. Its complelty mind boggling how zergs can whine yet have this rediclous unit that will basicly make you stay inside your own base or risk losing it, while they take all available expos on the map. The big difference between early harass (reaper/helion) and mid game harass with muta is that with the free expo you just need to survive for 10 minute and your good, while with muta harass your fucked because you need to survive AND get a 3rd expand wich you cant. And seriously the reaper thing, its soo last month, most high level players are fending it off on a regular basis, so y´all should dry the tears and try to catch up. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
I don't know if the wall-off is the problem, but yeah it changes things. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On September 09 2010 11:14 Alexstrasas wrote: This is just more whine but with a good looking structure and some screenshots. What happens on blistering sands if a terran isnt watching the backdoor rocks and the zerg breaks them and enters the base? This is what would happen every game if you were not able to wall off. You obviously have no ideia what you are talking about, playing vs a zerg without a wall doesnt work. Also while we are walling off zergs are building a free expansion so get a grip and stop crying. Also these QQ about terran harass are rediclous. You need to do serious damage to the zerg on the first 10 minutes otherwise there is going to be fucken mutas everywere. Its complelty mind boggling how zergs can whine yet have this rediclous unit that will basicly make you stay inside your own base or risk losing it, while they take all available expos on the map. The big difference between early harass (reaper/helion) and mid game harass with muta is that with the free expo you just need to survive for 10 minute and your good, while with muta harass your fucked because you need to survive AND get a 3rd expand wich you cant. And seriously the reaper thing, its soo last month, most high level players are fending it off on a regular basis, so y´all should dry the tears and try to catch up. bigtime-FAIL. u like bronze or what? Nothing u wrote makes sense... | ||
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
On September 09 2010 11:07 Yokoblue wrote: I used to play zerg before so I know what im talking about. U can easily defend any Protoss push with lings and crawlers if you want... Look at dimaga Tier 3 rush... Damn if he can rush to tier 3 you can easily rush to tier 2 dont u think ? Against terran its completely different... I had a hard time againts Terran but against protoss you dont have to whine. If he FE u double FE 1gold 1 natural if he 4 gate... you get macro advantage with crawlers and good zling control. What the fuck? Roaches are godly strong against gateway units, costwise, roaches are just as bad (cost/shot) targets to shoot with stalkers, compared to zerglings. With the speed upgrade, they out speed ALL protoss units, even off creep. You can still easy mode bust up the ramp, with a 5 roach rush, the most stalkers the protoss could possibly have is 3. Basically my point is that a protoss has an inferior wall (no lift, repair, bunkers, supply depot dropdown) to a terran, AND has inferior basic units when it comes to handling early aggression from zerg. Zerglings and Roach can threaten even a total wall off (gateway gateway pylon) because the roach /ling is very durable under stalker fire. With terrans, the repair and bunker aspects are pretty friggin huge. Marine has decent dps when defending behind a wall, and marauders really just put an end to any roach agression because unlike protoss gateway units, they can dps down roaches effectively. | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
On September 09 2010 11:14 Alexstrasas wrote:What happens on blistering sands if a terran isnt watching the backdoor rocks and the zerg breaks them and enters the base? This is what would happen every game if you were not able to wall off. uh what? if there was no wall at the front, why would a zerg waste time with the rock at the back? Also while we are walling off zergs are building a free expansion so get a grip and stop crying. Have you ... never ... bunker rushed? Also these QQ about terran harass are rediclous. You need to do serious damage to the zerg on the first 10 minutes otherwise there is going to be fucken mutas everywere. As a terran, you'd have 1) marines 2) missile turrets 3) thors to completely negate any muta harass. That's assuming the zerg has any sufficient gas to make mutas after raping their drones and overall economy progress. Its complelty mind boggling how zergs can whine yet have this rediclous unit that will basicly make you stay inside your own base or risk losing it, while they take all available expos on the map. The big difference between early harass (reaper/helion) and mid game harass with muta is that with the free expo you just need to survive for 10 minute and your good, while with muta harass your fucked because you need to survive AND get a 3rd expand wich you cant. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. The entire point of reaper and hellion harass to put zerg so far back in economy and tech, if not outright make them gg. By the time mutas come out, terran has so many options to counter (see above). And seriously the reaper thing, its soo last month, most high level players are fending it off on a regular basis, so y´all should dry the tears and try to catch up. Indeed, the entire beginning of the game just revolves around a terran sitting quaint, building, and harassing, and a zerg desperately trying to fend it off until they can get some harass units out - muta. The zerg can only hope they have enough gas at the time to make a sufficient amount of mutas to have any kind of effect against the terran base. Judging by your overall language, you really have no idea what its like to play as zerg versus a competent terran player. The problem is that the matchup is just a pain in the ass. Regardless of the balance - it plain isn't fun at all for a zerg to struggle so much in this matchup. The game needs to be fun and capable for all players at all skill levels, and it just isn't right now. Please, switch to zerg race for a week or two and come back with a more informed opinion. | ||
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Yokoblue
Canada594 Posts
On September 09 2010 11:35 Chronopolis wrote: What the fuck? Roaches are godly strong against gateway units, costwise, roaches are just as bad (cost/shot) targets to shoot with stalkers, compared to zerglings. With the speed upgrade, they out speed ALL protoss units, even off creep. You can still easy mode bust up the ramp, with a 5 roach rush, the most stalkers the protoss could possibly have is 3. Basically my point is that a protoss has an inferior wall (no lift, repair, bunkers, supply depot dropdown) to a terran, AND has inferior basic units when it comes to handling early aggression from zerg. Zerglings and Roach can threaten even a total wall off (gateway gateway pylon) because the roach /ling is very durable under stalker fire. With terrans, the repair and bunker aspects are pretty friggin huge. Marine has decent dps when defending behind a wall, and marauders really just put an end to any roach agression because unlike protoss gateway units, they can dps down roaches effectively. I didnt said that roaches werent good... only said it was possible with lings and crawlers... IMO its better lings because if opponent see roaches he can mass stalkers and own you and your roaches and defence... but its up to personnal opinion and abilities | ||
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Uranium
United States1077 Posts
Buff Zerglings. | ||
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Consummate
Australia191 Posts
All you would need to do is build a pool around 12, rush queen out, spit, wait for larvae, turn them all into zerglings and then rush. In that time, the Protoss would have 2 zealots that won't be able to stop your zerglings running into his base and killing most of his probes then backing away to harass the pylon connected to his Gateway, or Terran will only have like 3 marines which your zerglings can kill, and then it's a matter of spamming more zerglings so he can't do anything. Play against one of your friends that is better than you/equal skilled that plays Protoss/Terran, tell him not to wall in, just zergling spam and see what happens. If you don't win every single game you screwed up. Oh and, people that are saying "buff zerglings", do you know how overpowered 6 pool would be then? Some people have to realise that Zerg are the macro race of the game, they depend on expanding to win, that is why they can build drones the quickest of all races and have the cheapest expansion. If Zerg had really good early 1 base all ins, they would be overpowered as not only are they far better at macroing, but they are also on par with 1 basing. Note: I am not saying that Zerg t1 is awesome as it is, I think something should be changed about it, but I can't put my finger on it. Zerglings DEFINITELY are not the problem with their t1. | ||
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SyyRaaaN
Sweden136 Posts
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Walling_as_Terran Check out the different articles about walls on the liquipedia and don't come here saying it was just as easy in BW to hold off lings. Ling run-through were very often possible. And besides the point, if you walled yourself off as a P you had to destroy your stuff to get the goons out smoothly. With unit AI and sizes its now possible to only leave one hex open. And lets not mention forcefields to reinforce your wall which can deny a risky baneling bust try. Walls versus zerg are really effective in a manner they weren't in BW | ||
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