|
It seems that the years underground, the Zerg have been chugging back the Ritalin, because the playstyle of the Zerg has seen some major changes towards the passive side of the game. This causes a number of problems that we see in the game, particularly with the Zerg race. I've thought long and hard about why this is, and i realized that the simplest answer is probably the right one.
![[image loading]](http://www.themoderndaypirates.com/pirates/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/terran-wall.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.fohguild.org/forums/attachments/starcraft-ii/147205d1280879476-protoss-strategies-replays-screenshot2010-08-03-19_50_13.jpg)
The Wall in
I admit, I wasn't much of a Starcraft 1 player back in my time, however, as the buildup for Starcraft 2 was imminent, I watched many MANY replays thanks to Husky and HDstarcraft, and I noticed that Wall-ins weren't as common at the pro level, however, in Starcraft 2, any player who doesn't wall in versus a Zerg is throwing away a very major advantage.
Currently, wall-ins executed by a competant player shut down nearly every form of early agression from a zerg player with the exception of...
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/1/12/BanelingRush.png/290px-BanelingRush.png)
The Baneling Bust
Now unfortunately, a well made wall can repel a Baneling Bust with the greatest of ease. We know now that against most competant players, the earliest form of agression is mutalisk harass. Zerg players are now essentially forced to tech to tier 2 as fast as possible and completely forgo the Tier 1 game.
This allows the enemy player to:
-Dictate the pace of the game
-Harass and Macro with near impunity
-Speed Tech to Tier 3
-Deny Scouting easily
Now yes, not every race can be the same, however, there are some things that every race should have the potential to do at even rates, as they are important parts of the game.
As far as Protoss, and to a lesser extent, Terrans, the need for a wall when fighting other Terrans or Protoss goes down drastically. In fact, in many high level TvPs, PvPs or TvTs, the wall-in from both races are nearly non-existant, as against high level players, the disadvantages begin to outweigh the advantages. Placing your buildings so spread out makes them difficult to defend, and your simcity blocks your units from defending your buildings near the ramp. Units such as Stalkers and Marauders can very easily snipe buildings near the ramp used for a wall in, causing a wall to backfire severely.
What's the answer? What can be done to even the playing field? Well it's quite simple. The Zerg need a Tier 1 ranged unit of some sort. I know the suggestion of moving the Hydralisk to tier 1 is a total cliche, and I don't support that suggestion, because if I wanted to play starcraft 1, I'd go play starcraft 1. I don't pretend to be a game designer, or a balance expert... so I won't. But I think that this is a problem that can only be dealt with in one of the expansions, as adding a new unit is nothing that can be done lightly. All I know is that we need a tier 1 unit that has at least a range of 5, maybe even 6, so the Zerg can lay pressure on a wall early.
|
In broodwar wallins were fairly common in tvz, and if you didnt know how to wall in as a protoss in pvz, you were going to lose. So i dont think that the ability to stop ling runbys is what is hurting tier 1 zerg. Besides, the roach is a tier 1.5 unit just like the hydra was in broodwar, and is also ranged.
edit: the more i think about it, the more that im starting to believe that tier 1 zerg isnt hurting nearly as badly as you seem to believe it is.
|
How about a melee ranged unit that has the sole purpose of melting buildings. Oh you are walling in, Piyaaa, taste the back of my crystal fist.
Edit: melee-ranged ie 0 or 1 or whatever a zergling is
|
On September 09 2010 09:43 OwlFeet wrote:
How about a melee ranged unit that has the sole purpose of melting buildings. Oh you are walling in, Piyaaa, taste the back of my crystal fist.
A melee ranged unit?
|
I still QQ about this:
![[image loading]](http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/5388/zergtechtreejune2009.jpg)
|
On September 09 2010 09:42 Two_DoWn wrote:
In broodwar wallins were fairly common in tvz, and if you didnt know how to wall in as a protoss in pvz, you were going to lose. So i dont think that the ability to stop ling runbys is what is hurting tier 1 zerg. Besides, the roach is a tier 1.5 unit just like the hydra was in broodwar, and is also ranged.
3 range is not enough to lay pressure on a wall-in from a safe range. Hellions, Marines, Marauders and unsieged tanks can easily nuke the hell out of roaches safely from behind the wall.
In Brood War, the hydralisk was able to lay pressure upon a wall in at the early game. This allowed the Zerg to be agressive in the early game. This isn't an option in Starcraft 2, thus, the zerg is forced to sit in a defensive position until the opponent leaves his wall undefended, or makes an agressive push.
|
solution: play the game it is and get better at it.
|
On September 09 2010 09:42 Two_DoWn wrote:
In broodwar wallins were fairly common in tvz, and if you didnt know how to wall in as a protoss in pvz, you were going to lose. So i dont think that the ability to stop ling runbys is what is hurting tier 1 zerg. Besides, the roach is a tier 1.5 unit just like the hydra was in broodwar, and is also ranged.
edit: the more i think about it, the more that im starting to believe that tier 1 zerg isnt hurting nearly as badly as you seem to believe it is.
No they weren't that that common. Most terrans did 1 rax cc without a wall as they could just pull some scvs if they were dealing with a 9pool or something. And pvz, wall ins happened after toss got the expansion
|
On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it.
Very constructive. I do play the game, and I adapt to what I'm given, however I think the lack of ability to be agressive early is really hurting the zerg as a race.
|
Wall not common in broodwar? What are you smoking? People put walls everywhere, pylon walls, forge pylong walls, depot rax walls, factory rax walls, gateway zealot walls. Pro brood war has more walls than china.
a 5 or range unit to threaten walls....why don't you just park some lings outside the wall and power drones and tech while you wait for him to come out, you know, like good zergs do.
|
On September 09 2010 09:53 BadWithNames wrote:
Wall not common in broodwar? What are you smoking? People put walls everywhere, pylon walls, forge pylong walls, depot rax walls, factory rax walls, gateway zealot walls. Pro brood war has more walls than china.
a 5 or range unit to threaten walls....why don't you just park some lings outside the wall and power drones and tech while you wait for him to come out, you know, like good zergs do.
Pretty much this. Wall-ins (and tight chokes) were required in BW to stop a zerg from demolishing your mineral line and running all up in your base. If an opponent walls off, you expand and drone up. To take an expo your opponent will have to move out of his wall.
|
Im not the most amazing player on the planet, but i've found an overlord drop of banelings/zerglings on any wall-in is surprisingly effective. One obviously can't assault the wall head on with banelings, but If you roll up with about 12 overlords 5 of which are carrying troops, and dump directly on the wall, there's likely to be very minimal overlord loss if any (how often do u see mass missile turrets at the choke) and you'll likely smash the wall wide open.
This isn't a game ending tactic but can throw your opponent in a slight panic because all the comfort of his wall goes away when the bane-nuke melts it away. Then when he's so focused on a ground attack pouring in, start harassing the hell out of him with mutas for good fun.
Again, it wont win the game, but it makes it possible to crack the wall and drastically increase the effectiveness of a head on assault. After attempting it with many defense setups in unit tester in almost all cases the main threat, losing overlords, is extremely less than one might expect. anyway, my 2 cents. Wall busts: If not by land, take them by air.
|
On September 09 2010 09:53 BadWithNames wrote:
Wall not common in broodwar? What are you smoking? People put walls everywhere, pylon walls, forge pylong walls, depot rax walls, factory rax walls, gateway zealot walls. Pro brood war has more walls than china.
a 5 or range unit to threaten walls....why don't you just park some lings outside the wall and power drones and tech while you wait for him to come out, you know, like good zergs do.
I never once said "I'm having trouble with walls". I'm not. I do just that, i deny expansion as much as possible and macro up to my heart's content. I just dislike having no other options. I don't like that I have to constantly on my toes about harassment and drops, while being unable to lay any meaningful form of pressure on the opponent until the mid-late game.
I should have known I'd get a bunch of L2P responses, when I'm not saying that I can't do something, I'm pointing out something that I personally feel is damaging the game.
|
On September 09 2010 09:53 BadWithNames wrote:
Wall not common in broodwar? What are you smoking? People put walls everywhere, pylon walls, forge pylong walls, depot rax walls, factory rax walls, gateway zealot walls. Pro brood war has more walls than china.
a 5 or range unit to threaten walls....why don't you just park some lings outside the wall and power drones and tech while you wait for him to come out, you know, like good zergs do.
Ugh not even sure how to respond to your tripe.
Parking outside of a wall isn't exactly aggressive. That aside a terran had to remove a wall eventually so that he could freely move his units and the protoss had to leave an opening.
Now perfect wallins are easy as hell, both races have mechanics to circumvent their walls without breaking them at all or for longer than 2-3 seconds and zerg don't have a significantly ranged unit to pressure said wall.
The whole wallin thing is a symptom of the real problem though, Zerg's trash tier 1 and its inability to control the flow of the game AT ALL.
|
On September 09 2010 09:59 RavenNevermore wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 09:53 BadWithNames wrote:
Wall not common in broodwar? What are you smoking? People put walls everywhere, pylon walls, forge pylong walls, depot rax walls, factory rax walls, gateway zealot walls. Pro brood war has more walls than china.
a 5 or range unit to threaten walls....why don't you just park some lings outside the wall and power drones and tech while you wait for him to come out, you know, like good zergs do. I never once said "I'm having trouble with walls". I'm not. I do just that, i deny expansion as much as possible and macro up to my heart's content. I just dislike having no other options. I don't like that I have to constantly on my toes about harassment and drops, while being unable to lay any meaningful form of pressure on the opponent until the mid-late game. I should have known I'd get a bunch of L2P responses, when I'm not saying that I can't do something, I'm pointing out something that I personally feel is damaging the game.
It's called playing reactively. Unless you rush using roaches(like fistdauntalis's cool 5RR), or banelings (which do well versus most wimpy walls), breaking down their wall (in the early game) is not possible. While your idea may seem legit, it isn't exactly a balance issue. the toss and terran wall off because they have to to win, otherwise mass lings would be unstoppable and IMBA.
|
I was one that was ranting about balance issues for a very long time. This is because when I played the beta the zerg could be a lot more aggressive than the retail release. The roach 2 supply nerf made it so that the zerg could no longer successfully pull off early aggression without getting punished.
The other 2 races have the ability to end the game early. Aside from the baneling bust there's nothing zerg can do but sit there and macro. 5 Roach rush can work, but it doesn't usually end the game. There's no creativity other than placing a hidden tech building here and there. This is why zerg doesn't seem fun any more. If you're playing the game just to win then zerg is fine for you.
|
i agree that zergs are a little more passive sometimes, but i dont think we can get rid of the wall-in...
i think there are plenty of aggressive ways for zerg to still be aggressive
|
Works fine for me.. 5RR at least, and then micro the roaches that takes dmg in order to not lose any. Sometimes you may break the wall, sometimes you have to retreat. +1 range (or armor, again) on roaches would be awesome though. :D
|
On September 09 2010 10:07 Subversion wrote:
i agree that zergs are a little more passive sometimes, but i dont think we can get rid of the wall-in...
i think there are plenty of aggressive ways for zerg to still be aggressive
Let me know what those are when you have thought about it.
I can't think of anything truly viable pre-lair besides 5RR which is still a gimmick and by viable I mean something that doesn't leave you at an insurmountable disadvantage if it fails...early aggression =/= all in
|
%100 agreed to OP.
zerg early aggresion is a joke compared to other races. (this comes from watching pro-games not my level of play)
and even zerg does early aggresion hence the economic brakedown.
|
The reason pro BW players don't wall in as much as you see in SC2 against zerg is because they're able to handle any kind of ling all-ins and what have you without the walling. It's a lot easier to plug chokes in BW with units, and it's a bit more difficult to handle without a wall in SC2 because of how much faster lings are and how good they are at auto-surrounding, at least in the early game.
Not to mention, you could block ramps with only 2 zealots/marines/SCVs in BW, and it's impossible to do that in SC2, hence why walling is seen so much more.
I really don't think walling is any reason at all for why zerg is considered "underpowered" currently.
EDIT: Zerg didn't have tier 1 ranged units in BW either. Protoss didn't either, and they don't in SC2 as well.
|
I recently switched back to zerg after playing terran/random during launch, and zerg in beta. I got knocked down from plat to gold after only 1 day of ladder only winning 4/14 games. The sad thing is the opponent can build 1 unit the entire game and still win, and theres no way to scout the enemies base once they get their first unit out.
|
On September 09 2010 10:13 tok wrote:
I recently switched back to zerg after playing terran/random during launch, and zerg in beta. I got knocked down from plat to gold after only 1 day of ladder only winning 4/14 games. The sad thing is the opponent can build 1 unit the entire game and still win, and theres no way to scout the enemies base once they get their first unit out.
thats more of an example of your lack of skill with the zerg race rather then an example of how underpowered zerg is. despite zerg having its problems, losing to an army made of only 1 type of unit, means you obvoiusly dont understand how to combat simple army compositions with the zerg units.
|
On September 09 2010 09:43 OwlFeet wrote:
How about a melee ranged unit that has the sole purpose of melting buildings. Oh you are walling in, Piyaaa, taste the back of my crystal fist.
Edit: melee-ranged ie 0 or 1 or whatever a zergling is
Yeah, they're called banelings. >.>
|
On September 09 2010 10:21 St. Fu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 09:43 OwlFeet wrote:
How about a melee ranged unit that has the sole purpose of melting buildings. Oh you are walling in, Piyaaa, taste the back of my crystal fist.
Edit: melee-ranged ie 0 or 1 or whatever a zergling is Yeah, they're called banelings. >.>
Yea that was his point.
To bad he failed to state that this works on shitty wall ins and not against anyone of any real skill or preparation.
|
I blame 4 Factors for Zerg being the "passive" or "reactive" Race in SC2, at least earlier on in the game.
Creep Mechanic/Units too slow off-creep
Well, pretty self-explanatory I guess: Roaches, Hydras etc. are just too slow off-creep, which makes the creep-mechanic more of a defensive ability, at least earlier in the game.
Wall-in's/Force-Fields
Zerg just is not able to take advantage of one of their few fast Units, the Speedling, because runby's, backstabs etc. are a thing of the past thanks to IMBA force-fields on the ramp or wall-in's. Because of that, early pressure by the other races often cannot be punished, which effectively turns attacks that should be all-in's (and are as powerful as all-in's), into pretty solid BO's (4 warpgate-push is the best example IMHO), because Zerg can't counterattack nor backstab the opponent when his army moves out.
Bad T1/T1.5 ranged Units
With roaches being the only ranged T1-Unit, that is extremely slow off-creep and only has 3 range, you simply can't punish the opponent for walling in. You should be able to attack a wall-in if you choose to go for an aggressive strategy, like Hydras could in SC:BW. This way the wall-in would hinder the opponents own Units from attacking down the ramp and would therefore at least have 1 disadvantage. Against all the other races, I just would not recommend walling in, cuz as soon as stuff like Marauders, Stalkers, immortals etc. have vision up the cliff, your wall-in get's torn down. This especially makes counterattacks abolutely bad. Even at T2 with the Hydra, the slow movement-speed of 'em will make a counterattack up the ramp futile.
Zerglings being too weak
With Zerglings doing very low DPS compared to other T1/T1.5-Units, having no range, no Armor, very few health etc, Zerg is just always on the back-foot early on. The other Races have very strong Units and different builds early on against which Zerglings almost always loose (forward 2-gate Zealots, Reapers, Hellions). Because of that, you pretty much have to rely on the "defenders-advantage" (faster reinforcement, faster on creep, having queens to help out or even the drones etc.) to have any chance of surviving the early-game. Zerglings can't even backstab anymore to force the opponent to retreat when attacking early, as described above. If that's not enough: Zerglings are just sooo bad at destroying destructable rocks, so even on Maps like Blistering/Kulas, Counterattacking/Backstabbing with Zerglings is extremely hard to do.
|
another solution would be to just make better maps
its really hard to early wall on maps like scrap station
|
On September 09 2010 10:20 TyrantPotato wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 10:13 tok wrote:
I recently switched back to zerg after playing terran/random during launch, and zerg in beta. I got knocked down from plat to gold after only 1 day of ladder only winning 4/14 games. The sad thing is the opponent can build 1 unit the entire game and still win, and theres no way to scout the enemies base once they get their first unit out. thats more of an example of your lack of skill with the zerg race rather then an example of how underpowered zerg is. despite zerg having its problems, losing to an army made of only 1 type of unit, means you obvoiusly dont understand how to combat simple army compositions with the zerg units.
It may have something to do with his lack of skill, but you have to realize that terran can basically just sit back and make hellions and/or reapers and have a shot of winning if they catch their opponent off guard (very easy with wall in and lack of scouting possibilities). I could see 1 rax with a tech lab I'm not going to automatically think reapers. I'm going to think hey he could be going either mauraders or reapers and if I guess wrong I'm screwed.
|
early aggression doesn't always mean rushing...
aggressive play doesn't imply that you have to kill your opponent, just that you are aggresively keeping them in their base. If they are afraid to leave their base, then your aggresion is working, and you should be rewarded with an expansion ASAP.
|
On September 09 2010 09:46 MamiyaOtaru wrote:I still QQ about this: ![[image loading]](http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/5388/zergtechtreejune2009.jpg)
omfg that looks awesome why the f did they change it?
|
On September 09 2010 10:28 guitarizt wrote:omfg that looks awesome why the f did they change it?
I'll have wet dreams about that tonight! ^^'
|
|
|
On September 09 2010 10:12 Angra wrote:
The reason pro BW players don't wall in as much as you see in SC2 against zerg is because they're able to handle any kind of ling all-ins and what have you without the walling. It's a lot easier to plug chokes in BW with units, and it's a bit more difficult to handle without a wall in SC2 because of how much faster lings are and how good they are at auto-surrounding, at least in the early game.
Not to mention, you could block ramps with only 2 zealots/marines/SCVs in BW, and it's impossible to do that in SC2, hence why walling is seen so much more.
I really don't think walling is any reason at all for why zerg is considered "underpowered" currently.
EDIT: Zerg didn't have tier 1 ranged units in BW either. Protoss didn't either, and they don't in SC2 as well.
Tier 1.5, an arbitrary number... don't be intentionally thick. It's still early game.
And by range you mean something that can threaten a wall. Hydras and Dragoons could both, and routinely did, facilitate this function.
''On September 09 2010 10:28 guitarizt wrote:omfg that looks awesome why the f did they change it?
"banelings and lurkers are redundant!"
I hate blizzard  I love that tech tree much much more.
|
Just thought about something. What if you make supply depots bigger like they were in sc1. Big enough so that units can attack the depot and terran has to lower to defend it. Would that fix this?
|
You guys won't rest until Zerg has a many options as Terran will you. Speaking of which you guys should try terran, they have this awesome unit that bypasses walls completely.
|
On September 09 2010 10:26 Zerksys wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 10:20 TyrantPotato wrote:On September 09 2010 10:13 tok wrote:
I recently switched back to zerg after playing terran/random during launch, and zerg in beta. I got knocked down from plat to gold after only 1 day of ladder only winning 4/14 games. The sad thing is the opponent can build 1 unit the entire game and still win, and theres no way to scout the enemies base once they get their first unit out. thats more of an example of your lack of skill with the zerg race rather then an example of how underpowered zerg is. despite zerg having its problems, losing to an army made of only 1 type of unit, means you obvoiusly dont understand how to combat simple army compositions with the zerg units. It may have something to do with his lack of skill, but you have to realize that terran can basically just sit back and make hellions and/or reapers and have a shot of winning if they catch their opponent off guard (very easy with wall in and lack of scouting possibilities). I could see 1 rax with a tech lab I'm not going to automatically think reapers. I'm going to think hey he could be going either mauraders or reapers and if I guess wrong I'm screwed.
im sorry if you misread my post. i didnt mean any offense by it, he went from plat to gold level so i presume his macro mechanics aren't developed yet, and its a wide known fact zerg is the hardest race for lower level players so all implied was hes problems would most likely come from inconsistant larva injections,lack of creep spread, and expanding and droning at optimal times. and not understanding how to pull off effective flanks and what not to combat enemy army compositions.
im heavily on the bagwagon of the Terran being the perfect race and the other two playing catch up.
BUT people need to know the difference between losing because of imbalance, or losing because they were out played or made a mistake. the imbalance's between terran and zerg, are mainly only going to effect the game at top top levels. people who aren't top level which include my self and many many others on this forum, often the reason we lose is because the preconceptions of imbalance we put in our head leading us to put our selves into positions that will cause us to lose a game. Sure, its easier to play as Terran or Protoss compared to zerg, but that doesn't mean playing zerg is a lost hope.
i play zerg, although i believe ZvT is slightly broken right now, i still win about 60% of my ZvT games, why. because alot of the time im a better player then the T player im playing against. and often T players i play against when their one base strat fails they often dont know how to play a macro game against 3+ bases i have. and since i have played zerg since the begining, i know how to keep 3+ bases running, keeping my minerals low and what not.
When i lose to reapers i dont say 'OMFG IMBA FK THIS GAME" i simply look at the replay check what time the reapers started their assualt, and open up some practice game and keep looking at ideas to beat it. and even when this reaper buissness die's down, there's still hellions. not as IMBA!!!@!@!@!@!! but they still can do some seroius damage, in some cases more damage then reapers would. are we all going to go cry imba the no. but most the times i lose to reapers, is because i failed at my micro, made a mistake, and thats my fault. not blizzards for making an imbalanced game.
amen hahahahaha
|
At this point, all Zerg players can do is post threads, because we sure as hell can't play the game until the patch is released.
|
IMO you're all whining for nothing...
Terran has a lot of harassing unit... Yes
Protoss dont have any harassing unit... beside the warprism... which is a transport and everybody can get a transport at this point.
Zerg dont have too
The thing you dont seem to understand is that somebody who wall in with little to no unit give you map control... Map control = power...
Zerg can expend freely + if the opponent army try to get out... they get snipe by 30 zerglings... Learn to get the map control and expend like crazy and u wont even bother the wall in.
Btw: A good zerg who wall with 4-5 spine crawler + slings can kill everything u send at him... so stop whining about things and not others... every race has its advantage.
|
On September 09 2010 10:43 Yokoblue wrote:
IMO you're all whining for nothing...
Terran has a lot of harassing unit... Yes
Protoss dont have any harassing unit... beside the warprism... which is a transport and everybody can get a transport at this point.
Zerg dont have too
The thing you dont seem to understand is that somebody who wall in with little to no unit give you map control... Map control = power...
Zerg can expend freely + if the opponent army try to get out... they get snipe by 30 zerglings... Learn to get the map control and expend like crazy and u wont even bother the wall in.
Btw: A good zerg who wall with 4-5 spine crawler + slings can kill everything u send at him... so stop whining about things and not others... every race has its advantage.
My goodness you have no clue what you're talking about.....
Not only is that 30 zling completely unrealistic but really, zerg has to spend money in order to get ready for a counter...and oddly enough even when T in particular walls in they can still exert a startling amount of influence.
Again nobody of any note really cares about wall ins. Zerg just have a lacking pre-lair game
|
On September 09 2010 09:59 RavenNevermore wrote:
I just dislike having no other options. I don't like that I have to constantly on my toes about harassment and drops, while being unable to lay any meaningful form of pressure on the opponent until the mid-late game.
This sounds eerily like something we used to know...
... oh yeah! SC1 Terran!
And remember, if you defend a harassment from your opponent well, you generally pull ahead and gain the momentum, even if ever-so-slightly.
And Zerg has the highest potential in economy.
|
I remember Toss being aggressive as well in BW. They can't really be aggressive vs a terran or a toss. Toss will force field and cut your army in half. The terran will snipe you in the comfort of their wall. The time both races are vulnerable is when they try to expand and the ramp is gone.
|
On September 09 2010 10:43 Yokoblue wrote:
IMO you're all whining for nothing...
Terran has a lot of harassing unit... Yes
Protoss dont have any harassing unit... beside the warprism... which is a transport and everybody can get a transport at this point.
Zerg dont have too
The thing you dont seem to understand is that somebody who wall in with little to no unit give you map control... Map control = power...
Zerg can expend freely + if the opponent army try to get out... they get snipe by 30 zerglings... Learn to get the map control and expend like crazy and u wont even bother the wall in.
Btw: A good zerg who wall with 4-5 spine crawler + slings can kill everything u send at him... so stop whining about things and not others... every race has its advantage.
wow, u really have no clue, do u?
|
On September 09 2010 10:34 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 10:12 Angra wrote:
The reason pro BW players don't wall in as much as you see in SC2 against zerg is because they're able to handle any kind of ling all-ins and what have you without the walling. It's a lot easier to plug chokes in BW with units, and it's a bit more difficult to handle without a wall in SC2 because of how much faster lings are and how good they are at auto-surrounding, at least in the early game.
Not to mention, you could block ramps with only 2 zealots/marines/SCVs in BW, and it's impossible to do that in SC2, hence why walling is seen so much more.
I really don't think walling is any reason at all for why zerg is considered "underpowered" currently.
EDIT: Zerg didn't have tier 1 ranged units in BW either. Protoss didn't either, and they don't in SC2 as well. Tier 1.5, an arbitrary number... don't be intentionally thick. It's still early game. And by range you mean something that can threaten a wall. Hydras and Dragoons could both, and routinely did, facilitate this function.
I left out hydras and dragoons from tier 1 because I assumed that since the OP didn't mention roaches at all, he didn't consider them to be tier 1, considering his entire argument is "zerg has no tier 1 ranged unit".
|
Really? NOBODY's gonna correct the spelling? Pacifying. Jeez.
|
I disagree.
Wall-ins make it difficult for zergs to be extremely aggressive early, in fact they have very limited options. There is the baneling bust which you mentioned. There is also the 5-Roach-Rush build.
It's fairly standard for zerg to get early speedlings. If zerg has a group of speedlings sitting at the bottom of the opponent's ramp who is being the agressor and who is playing passive? The guy behind the wall-in is the passive player. The zerg is playing aggressive by seizing map control with his speedlings (until the opponent decides to push out).
When Zerg gets to t2 their options open up mostly with the mutalisk. I've seen plenty of games where the main part of the Zerg's strategy is to get mutalisks for harrass and map control so they can take extra bases and gain an advantage for when the opponent breaks out of that turtle.
Actually, the cute harrass units aside, I think Zerg is probably the most aggressive race. How many cannons, turrets and bunkers (static defenses to deflect aggression) are used against Z as opposed to spine/spore crawlers used by Z? Zerg might get a couple of spine crawlers if he scouts an early push and a few more if the push is later/larger. Cannons, turrets and bunkers are staples. Protoss and Terran are much more defensive. They turtle until they get to that timing to "push", whereas zerg is based on constant aggression: they keep on aggressively expanding and gaining map control so that they can deal with those pushes. Protoss/terran need units like hellions, reapers, DTs, dropships etc. to make up for their lack of aggression.
|
On September 09 2010 09:46 MamiyaOtaru wrote:I still QQ about this:
hydra tier1.5? that would be great! no armored units... all in reaper/hellion!
|
United States7481 Posts
i'm pretty sure the main reason that walls are at the main and not the nat (which as you say was more common in bw) is because of maps.
|
On September 09 2010 10:43 Yokoblue wrote:
IMO you're all whining for nothing...
Terran has a lot of harassing unit... Yes
Protoss dont have any harassing unit... beside the warprism... which is a transport and everybody can get a transport at this point.
Zerg dont have too
The thing you dont seem to understand is that somebody who wall in with little to no unit give you map control... Map control = power...
Zerg can expend freely + if the opponent army try to get out... they get snipe by 30 zerglings... Learn to get the map control and expend like crazy and u wont even bother the wall in.
Btw: A good zerg who wall with 4-5 spine crawler + slings can kill everything u send at him... so stop whining about things and not others... every race has its advantage.
Jesus man.. this kind of keyboard vomit is the the reason I avoid the bnet forums and choose to come here instead.. really? Are you even playing the same game I am?
I agree with the OP about wallins killing aggression, but that will never be changed and it's not just wallins anyway. It's creep dynamics, roaches being countered and out-ranged by everyone and their fucking mother, and the ridiculous strength of 1-base t/p compared to 1-base zerg.
|
On September 09 2010 10:11 berzerger wrote:
%100 agreed to OP.
zerg early aggresion is a joke compared to other races. (this comes from watching pro-games not my level of play)
and even zerg does early aggresion hence the economic brakedown.
^dito. The roach should have a range upgrade researchable at tier 2 and the speed upgrade should be at tier 1.
|
On September 09 2010 10:45 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 10:43 Yokoblue wrote:
IMO you're all whining for nothing...
Terran has a lot of harassing unit... Yes
Protoss dont have any harassing unit... beside the warprism... which is a transport and everybody can get a transport at this point.
Zerg dont have too
The thing you dont seem to understand is that somebody who wall in with little to no unit give you map control... Map control = power...
Zerg can expend freely + if the opponent army try to get out... they get snipe by 30 zerglings... Learn to get the map control and expend like crazy and u wont even bother the wall in.
Btw: A good zerg who wall with 4-5 spine crawler + slings can kill everything u send at him... so stop whining about things and not others... every race has its advantage. My goodness you have no clue what you're talking about..... Not only is that 30 zling completely unrealistic but really, zerg has to spend money in order to get ready for a counter...and oddly enough even when T in particular walls in they can still exert a startling amount of influence. Again nobody of any note really cares about wall ins. Zerg just have a lacking pre-lair game
I used to play zerg before so I know what im talking about. U can easily defend any Protoss push with lings and crawlers if you want... Look at dimaga Tier 3 rush... Damn if he can rush to tier 3 you can easily rush to tier 2 dont u think ?
Against terran its completely different... I had a hard time againts Terran but against protoss you dont have to whine. If he FE u double FE 1gold 1 natural if he 4 gate... you get macro advantage with crawlers and good zling control.
|
Zerg has always been a "contain while gaining and economic/unit advantage" type race, even in BW. Stylistically, it's played almost exactly the same with the exception of the lurker which, in some cases, could be used for early aggression. But more or less it's very similar.
The bottom line is that zerg CAN be aggressive; it simply requires the right timing and aggressive spreading of creep. I watch Cool aka Fruitseller smash on people with basic units all the time regardless of wall in or not. I'm pretty sure he crushed EternalPrime with nothing but zerglings and roaches over the course of two games just yesterday.
|
n Starcraft 2, any player who doesn't wall in versus a Zerg is throwing away a very major advantage.
This allows the enemy player to:
-Dictate the pace of the game
-Harass and Macro with near impunity
-Speed Tech to Tier 3
-Deny Scouting easily
This is just more whine but with a good looking structure and some screenshots.
What happens on blistering sands if a terran isnt watching the backdoor rocks and the zerg breaks them and enters the base? This is what would happen every game if you were not able to wall off.
You obviously have no ideia what you are talking about, playing vs a zerg without a wall doesnt work.
Also while we are walling off zergs are building a free expansion so get a grip and stop crying.
Also these QQ about terran harass are rediclous. You need to do serious damage to the zerg on the first 10 minutes otherwise there is going to be fucken mutas everywere.
Its complelty mind boggling how zergs can whine yet have this rediclous unit that will basicly make you stay inside your own base or risk losing it, while they take all available expos on the map.
The big difference between early harass (reaper/helion) and mid game harass with muta is that with the free expo you just need to survive for 10 minute and your good, while with muta harass your fucked because you need to survive AND get a 3rd expand wich you cant.
And seriously the reaper thing, its soo last month, most high level players are fending it off on a regular basis, so y´all should dry the tears and try to catch up.
|
I don't understand some of this. How does a Terran wall even remotely change their ability to exert map control or deny an expansion? Walling off is 95% free (extra scv travel time).
I don't know if the wall-off is the problem, but yeah it changes things.
|
On September 09 2010 11:14 Alexstrasas wrote:Show nested quote +n Starcraft 2, any player who doesn't wall in versus a Zerg is throwing away a very major advantage. Show nested quote +This allows the enemy player to:
-Dictate the pace of the game
-Harass and Macro with near impunity
-Speed Tech to Tier 3
-Deny Scouting easily This is just more whine but with a good looking structure and some screenshots. What happens on blistering sands if a terran isnt watching the backdoor rocks and the zerg breaks them and enters the base? This is what would happen every game if you were not able to wall off. You obviously have no ideia what you are talking about, playing vs a zerg without a wall doesnt work. Also while we are walling off zergs are building a free expansion so get a grip and stop crying. Also these QQ about terran harass are rediclous. You need to do serious damage to the zerg on the first 10 minutes otherwise there is going to be fucken mutas everywere. Its complelty mind boggling how zergs can whine yet have this rediclous unit that will basicly make you stay inside your own base or risk losing it, while they take all available expos on the map. The big difference between early harass (reaper/helion) and mid game harass with muta is that with the free expo you just need to survive for 10 minute and your good, while with muta harass your fucked because you need to survive AND get a 3rd expand wich you cant. And seriously the reaper thing, its soo last month, most high level players are fending it off on a regular basis, so y´all should dry the tears and try to catch up.
bigtime-FAIL.
u like bronze or what? Nothing u wrote makes sense...
|
On September 09 2010 11:07 Yokoblue wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 10:45 Jayme wrote:On September 09 2010 10:43 Yokoblue wrote:
IMO you're all whining for nothing...
Terran has a lot of harassing unit... Yes
Protoss dont have any harassing unit... beside the warprism... which is a transport and everybody can get a transport at this point.
Zerg dont have too
The thing you dont seem to understand is that somebody who wall in with little to no unit give you map control... Map control = power...
Zerg can expend freely + if the opponent army try to get out... they get snipe by 30 zerglings... Learn to get the map control and expend like crazy and u wont even bother the wall in.
Btw: A good zerg who wall with 4-5 spine crawler + slings can kill everything u send at him... so stop whining about things and not others... every race has its advantage. My goodness you have no clue what you're talking about..... Not only is that 30 zling completely unrealistic but really, zerg has to spend money in order to get ready for a counter...and oddly enough even when T in particular walls in they can still exert a startling amount of influence. Again nobody of any note really cares about wall ins. Zerg just have a lacking pre-lair game I used to play zerg before so I know what im talking about. U can easily defend any Protoss push with lings and crawlers if you want... Look at dimaga Tier 3 rush... Damn if he can rush to tier 3 you can easily rush to tier 2 dont u think ? Against terran its completely different... I had a hard time againts Terran but against protoss you dont have to whine. If he FE u double FE 1gold 1 natural if he 4 gate... you get macro advantage with crawlers and good zling control.
What the fuck? Roaches are godly strong against gateway units, costwise, roaches are just as bad (cost/shot) targets to shoot with stalkers, compared to zerglings. With the speed upgrade, they out speed ALL protoss units, even off creep. You can still easy mode bust up the ramp, with a 5 roach rush, the most stalkers the protoss could possibly have is 3. Basically my point is that a protoss has an inferior wall (no lift, repair, bunkers, supply depot dropdown) to a terran, AND has inferior basic units when it comes to handling early aggression from zerg. Zerglings and Roach can threaten even a total wall off (gateway gateway pylon) because the roach /ling is very durable under stalker fire. With terrans, the repair and bunker aspects are pretty friggin huge. Marine has decent dps when defending behind a wall, and marauders really just put an end to any roach agression because unlike protoss gateway units, they can dps down roaches effectively.
|
sorry to omnislash, but
On September 09 2010 11:14 Alexstrasas wrote:What happens on blistering sands if a terran isnt watching the backdoor rocks and the zerg breaks them and enters the base? This is what would happen every game if you were not able to wall off.
uh what? if there was no wall at the front, why would a zerg waste time with the rock at the back?
Also while we are walling off zergs are building a free expansion so get a grip and stop crying.
Have you ... never ... bunker rushed?
Also these QQ about terran harass are rediclous. You need to do serious damage to the zerg on the first 10 minutes otherwise there is going to be fucken mutas everywere.
As a terran, you'd have 1) marines 2) missile turrets 3) thors to completely negate any muta harass. That's assuming the zerg has any sufficient gas to make mutas after raping their drones and overall economy progress.
Its complelty mind boggling how zergs can whine yet have this rediclous unit that will basicly make you stay inside your own base or risk losing it, while they take all available expos on the map.
The big difference between early harass (reaper/helion) and mid game harass with muta is that with the free expo you just need to survive for 10 minute and your good, while with muta harass your fucked because you need to survive AND get a 3rd expand wich you cant.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. The entire point of reaper and hellion harass to put zerg so far back in economy and tech, if not outright make them gg. By the time mutas come out, terran has so many options to counter (see above).
And seriously the reaper thing, its soo last month, most high level players are fending it off on a regular basis, so y´all should dry the tears and try to catch up.
Indeed, the entire beginning of the game just revolves around a terran sitting quaint, building, and harassing, and a zerg desperately trying to fend it off until they can get some harass units out - muta. The zerg can only hope they have enough gas at the time to make a sufficient amount of mutas to have any kind of effect against the terran base.
Judging by your overall language, you really have no idea what its like to play as zerg versus a competent terran player. The problem is that the matchup is just a pain in the ass. Regardless of the balance - it plain isn't fun at all for a zerg to struggle so much in this matchup. The game needs to be fun and capable for all players at all skill levels, and it just isn't right now.
Please, switch to zerg race for a week or two and come back with a more informed opinion.
|
On September 09 2010 11:35 Chronopolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 11:07 Yokoblue wrote:On September 09 2010 10:45 Jayme wrote:On September 09 2010 10:43 Yokoblue wrote:
IMO you're all whining for nothing...
Terran has a lot of harassing unit... Yes
Protoss dont have any harassing unit... beside the warprism... which is a transport and everybody can get a transport at this point.
Zerg dont have too
The thing you dont seem to understand is that somebody who wall in with little to no unit give you map control... Map control = power...
Zerg can expend freely + if the opponent army try to get out... they get snipe by 30 zerglings... Learn to get the map control and expend like crazy and u wont even bother the wall in.
Btw: A good zerg who wall with 4-5 spine crawler + slings can kill everything u send at him... so stop whining about things and not others... every race has its advantage. My goodness you have no clue what you're talking about..... Not only is that 30 zling completely unrealistic but really, zerg has to spend money in order to get ready for a counter...and oddly enough even when T in particular walls in they can still exert a startling amount of influence. .... I didnt said that Roaches werent good... I only said that it was easily possible with only lings and crawlers... IMO its better to have lings because if Protoss mass stalker... ur done even with roaches and crawlers... But Stilll its up to... your own opinion... your abilities... Again nobody of any note really cares about wall ins. Zerg just have a lacking pre-lair game I used to play zerg before so I know what im talking about. U can easily defend any Protoss push with lings and crawlers if you want... Look at dimaga Tier 3 rush... Damn if he can rush to tier 3 you can easily rush to tier 2 dont u think ? Against terran its completely different... I had a hard time againts Terran but against protoss you dont have to whine. If he FE u double FE 1gold 1 natural if he 4 gate... you get macro advantage with crawlers and good zling control. What the fuck? Roaches are godly strong against gateway units, costwise, roaches are just as bad (cost/shot) targets to shoot with stalkers, compared to zerglings. With the speed upgrade, they out speed ALL protoss units, even off creep. You can still easy mode bust up the ramp, with a 5 roach rush, the most stalkers the protoss could possibly have is 3. Basically my point is that a protoss has an inferior wall (no lift, repair, bunkers, supply depot dropdown) to a terran, AND has inferior basic units when it comes to handling early aggression from zerg. Zerglings and Roach can threaten even a total wall off (gateway gateway pylon) because the roach /ling is very durable under stalker fire. With terrans, the repair and bunker aspects are pretty friggin huge. Marine has decent dps when defending behind a wall, and marauders really just put an end to any roach agression because unlike protoss gateway units, they can dps down roaches effectively.
I didnt said that roaches werent good... only said it was possible with lings and crawlers... IMO its better lings because if opponent see roaches he can mass stalkers and own you and your roaches and defence... but its up to personnal opinion and abilities
|
Zerg tier 1 is trash, and the strength of opponents' walls + my own lack of wall-in always puts me on the defensive until I can get Mutalisks out. The OP hit the nail on the head.
Buff Zerglings.
|
If it were impossible to wall in, then zergling spam would be overpowered, simple.
All you would need to do is build a pool around 12, rush queen out, spit, wait for larvae, turn them all into zerglings and then rush. In that time, the Protoss would have 2 zealots that won't be able to stop your zerglings running into his base and killing most of his probes then backing away to harass the pylon connected to his Gateway, or Terran will only have like 3 marines which your zerglings can kill, and then it's a matter of spamming more zerglings so he can't do anything.
Play against one of your friends that is better than you/equal skilled that plays Protoss/Terran, tell him not to wall in, just zergling spam and see what happens. If you don't win every single game you screwed up.
Oh and, people that are saying "buff zerglings", do you know how overpowered 6 pool would be then?
Some people have to realise that Zerg are the macro race of the game, they depend on expanding to win, that is why they can build drones the quickest of all races and have the cheapest expansion. If Zerg had really good early 1 base all ins, they would be overpowered as not only are they far better at macroing, but they are also on par with 1 basing.
Note: I am not saying that Zerg t1 is awesome as it is, I think something should be changed about it, but I can't put my finger on it. Zerglings DEFINITELY are not the problem with their t1.
|
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Walling
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Walling_as_Terran
Check out the different articles about walls on the liquipedia and don't come here saying it was just as easy in BW to hold off lings. Ling run-through were very often possible. And besides the point, if you walled yourself off as a P you had to destroy your stuff to get the goons out smoothly. With unit AI and sizes its now possible to only leave one hex open. And lets not mention forcefields to reinforce your wall which can deny a risky baneling bust try.
Walls versus zerg are really effective in a manner they weren't in BW
|
On September 09 2010 09:59 RavenNevermore wrote:
I don't like that I have to constantly on my toes about harassment and drops, while being unable to lay any meaningful form of pressure on the opponent until the mid-late game.
Why don't you do harassment/drops. Use Nydus or Overlord drops to get behind the wall. And don't dropships come out mid-late game?
|
On September 09 2010 12:09 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 09:59 RavenNevermore wrote:
I don't like that I have to constantly on my toes about harassment and drops, while being unable to lay any meaningful form of pressure on the opponent until the mid-late game. Why don't you do harassment/drops. Use Nydus or Overlord drops to get behind the wall. And don't dropships come out mid-late game?
Ventral Sacs and OL speed is 300/300 - Very pricy - and lets not mention the build time on sacs. Nydus is ok but can be busted if P has 1 warp gate on no cool down + some pylons to scout which most P do anyways. Also its enough to have 1-2 zealots on patrol if that floats your boat.
|
When I first started playing Brood War, I could never understand why my marines sucked against zerglings so bad(and zeolots). I couldn't even get a decent number of marines to be aggressive with because I had to bunker my ramp or my minerals to stop zerg(protoss) from destroying me in the first 5 minutes of the game. One day I observed another terran playing and learned how to wall off my choke. It made the game instantly better and made the terran race actually playable with low apm. After that the problem of harassment by air was the next major obstacle and I had to basically expect mutalisks and build a bunch of turrets(we did have ONE scan to figure the tech out). So after making mutas useless on a backstab, I could finally begin to think about moving out of my base...but not until I had a tank or 2 and a science vessel. So after researching 3 upgrades(irradiate, stim and range for marines), building several barracks, several turrets, all the depots to match the army, an engineering bay, academy, a factory with machine shop and a starport I could finally think about later in the game and plan for a command center for the extra economy. I must say that playing Terran in Brood War was a learning curve, but I toughed it out and eventually people(and maps) started doing 1 rax expansions and mech play etc.
Does this uphill battle sound familiar?
My point? Zergs just have to tough it out and learn how to combat the early crap Terran and Protoss can throw at them. I didn't like fighting uphill in Brood War, but I did it and didn't think it was unfair because eventually the evolution of the game will occur. If I didn't see Boxer kicking ass with Terran I wouldn't be playing the game anymore either, meaning that if most of you zergs suck that doesn't mean that zerg sucks you just are not capable of playing them.
|
I think the balance relies heavily on the map selection.. scrap station is a good example of a zerg favored map (i think)... big choke, close air distance (fast muta harass) etc. also rock walls at the second entrance is a good example that favors Z and P... Terrans with siege tanks would most likely want to take there wall down head on.
I believe we need better maps. Don't get me wrong, we need maps with good small chokes... just not all of them.
EDIT: i should add there is a lot of maps that favor T which does not help the T OP spam. (kulas Ravine ESP)
|
On September 09 2010 12:16 Rabbet wrote:
When I first started playing Brood War, I could never understand why my marines sucked against zerglings so bad(and zeolots). I couldn't even get a decent number of marines to be aggressive with because I had to bunker my ramp or my minerals to stop zerg(protoss) from destroying me in the first 5 minutes of the game. One day I observed another terran playing and learned how to wall off my choke. It made the game instantly better and made the terran race actually playable with low apm. After that the problem of harassment by air was the next major obstacle and I had to basically expect mutalisks and build a bunch of turrets(we did have ONE scan to figure the tech out). So after making mutas useless on a backstab, I could finally begin to think about moving out of my base...but not until I had a tank or 2 and a science vessel. So after researching 3 upgrades(irradiate, stim and range for marines), building several barracks, several turrets, all the depots to match the army, an engineering bay, academy, a factory with machine shop and a starport I could finally think about later in the game and plan for a command center for the extra economy. I must say that playing Terran in Brood War was a learning curve, but I toughed it out and eventually people(and maps) started doing 1 rax expansions and mech play etc.
Does this uphill battle sound familiar?
My point? Zergs just have to tough it out and learn how to combat the early crap Terran and Protoss can throw at them. I didn't like fighting uphill in Brood War, but I did it and didn't think it was unfair because eventually the evolution of the game will occur. If I didn't see Boxer kicking ass with Terran I wouldn't be playing the game anymore either, meaning that if most of you zergs suck that doesn't mean that zerg sucks you just are not capable of playing them.
TvZ is in no way an uphill battle for T in BW. You just didn't know how to play properly.
Suggesting that every Zerg player (including players like IdrA and DIMAGA) just hasn't figured out how to play is pathetic and a poorly thought out excuse by non-Zerg players. Not only that, it's a problem either way - isn't it a problem if it's significantly harder for Zerg to figure out/execute anything compared to P and T?
|
We complain about the weak t1 zerg...
And we know the answer... zerg didn't need a long range t1 unit with the early beta roach design... thuogh they were clearly op and needed to be nerfed... however once a balance was found there was too little development time to rebuild the zerg early game to something meaningful....
And TAAA-DAAAAAA we have release.
Zergs will learn and we will grow a lot in the next year. However I do not expect us to catch up in the # of viable build and just pure options until the next release.
It's unfortunate but it is what it is.
edit:
(also, I do actutually think it's completely reasonable to someone to say that even the very best players haven't figured out how to play yet... I have little doubt that game play a year from now will look little like it does today, we forget how new the game really is. It's not a knock on great players, it's just the simple reality that this is a VERY complex system, doesn't mean they are not the very best players, now)
|
Wait since when was zerg ever aggressive? Zerg was definately the most passive in brood war.
As a disclaimer I'm not counting old style brood war, because while they may not have been playing wrongly, there's probably a reason they stopped using those builds.
ZvZ: Well, let's not mention this abomination of a match up. We're comparing races anyways.
ZvT: Sunken and drone while giving away map control, use mutas to buy time for lurkers, then use lurkers to stall and buy more time for defilers. Then use defilers to buy more time for ultralisks then attack.
ZvP: 5 hatcheries before your first attack unit (scourge hardly count).
It's just the way zerg works because of larvae and how you can't make drones and attack units at the same time to the extent other races can. If you can catch a break and don't have to defend for a period of time, the less risky option will be droning, given that you have the experience to know how much to drone. So while the harassing shennanigans might look cute, the goal of them is just more time.
|
Not to mention, you could block ramps with only 2 zealots/marines/SCVs in BW, and it's impossible to do that in SC2, hence why walling is seen so much more.
.
1 was enough. Atleast with SCV's and Zealots.
|
On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it.
oh yeah the guy who switched from Z to T when mech became OP?
Yeah, lets listen to you.
|
On September 09 2010 12:16 Rabbet wrote:
When I first started playing Brood War, I could never understand why my marines sucked against zerglings so bad(and zeolots). I couldn't even get a decent number of marines to be aggressive with because I had to bunker my ramp or my minerals to stop zerg(protoss) from destroying me in the first 5 minutes of the game. One day I observed another terran playing and learned how to wall off my choke. It made the game instantly better and made the terran race actually playable with low apm. After that the problem of harassment by air was the next major obstacle and I had to basically expect mutalisks and build a bunch of turrets(we did have ONE scan to figure the tech out). So after making mutas useless on a backstab, I could finally begin to think about moving out of my base...but not until I had a tank or 2 and a science vessel. So after researching 3 upgrades(irradiate, stim and range for marines), building several barracks, several turrets, all the depots to match the army, an engineering bay, academy, a factory with machine shop and a starport I could finally think about later in the game and plan for a command center for the extra economy. I must say that playing Terran in Brood War was a learning curve, but I toughed it out and eventually people(and maps) started doing 1 rax expansions and mech play etc.
Does this uphill battle sound familiar?
My point? Zergs just have to tough it out and learn how to combat the early crap Terran and Protoss can throw at them. I didn't like fighting uphill in Brood War, but I did it and didn't think it was unfair because eventually the evolution of the game will occur. If I didn't see Boxer kicking ass with Terran I wouldn't be playing the game anymore either, meaning that if most of you zergs suck that doesn't mean that zerg sucks you just are not capable of playing them.
Big pile of nonsense. What do you know about Starcraft 1.00 to be honest? Here you come and talk about BW and Boxer which became known in 2001? 2002? Hey man, as i recall it that was BW and after patch 1.08 (January 2001 i remember correctly) was released, which basically was the final balance patch for BW. 2 ½ years after the games release with an expansion to boost. Don't compare this game to BW and the whine popping up now as if it would be the same as if people whined in BW.
Back in the days - yeah i played Starcraft 1 from release day until 2000, and the talk was much similar to the current whine/talk/ideas (although we didn't have the same structured forums and community) and the first balance patches that came really changed a lot and dealt with loads of balance issues which hopefully will happen to this game too. So all these things are legitimate complaints - and its up to blizzard to find out which ones are severe and that needs to be dealt with and which ones that can be dealt with by strategy and skill.
|
Wall-ins have very little to do with how passive Zerg has to be and react to the opponent. People could "wall-in" as Terran or Protoss back in BW as well, and they effectively shut down early aggression outside of all-in mass speedlings. Even then, it's very unreliable. One problem is that Hydras got moved to Tier 2, so now 3 hatch hydra bust isn't even an option (a fairly effective all-in against Protoss).
But...
The problem now is how tier 1-1.5 units for Protoss and Terran are so strong now. They can be so aggressive (especially with the aid of smaller maps). BW Zerg can get away with FE with sunkens and zerglings until Mutas. Terrans wouldn't even try to break sunken walls+lings with M&M because it simply just wasn't powerful enough to break a good zerg player in early-mid game. Protoss still has 2-gate aggression, and now they have effective ways to deal with zerglings as Zealots are much better in SC2 against zerglings, and Force Fields allow Protoss to create "chokes" in the middle of the map.
|
I really don't see the point in comparing BW PvZ with SC2 PvZ.
In SC2, you go 1base, and you have to wall off with gate/buildings/zealots.
In BW, you most often fast expanded with cannons, so it was a completely different animal. If you were going 1base, you could still block the choke with 2 hold position Zealots, before any lings get to you (save a 5pool). Or if it was a rampless map, and you went 1base, you were probably cheesing or are going to lose.
TvAnything in BW would often involve walling, anyway.
Your comparison to BW is completely flawed, and the Zerg do have a tier 1 ranged unit. Its called the Roach.
|
It's an entire set of changes that makes zerg more passive than BW.
-Wall-ins less expensive. Easier to build a wall-in that also allows large #s of units out later on.
-Zerglings nerfed in effectiveness
-Hellions introduced (roasts lings, harasses early) compared to vulture has AoE damage
-Hydras moved to tier 2
-Mutas cannot stack
-Missile turrets stronger/faster
-Marauders introduced (they're a meatshield that Terran previously lacked + do at least alright vs any zerg ground unit + kill buildings)
-Reapers introduced (roasts lings, harasses early)
-Queens introduced (places 75% of Zerg's production capabilities into a unit that has 175 hp making not-defending much riskier)
-Bunkers only have opportunity cost
-Static defense takes longer to build
-No defensive unit (lurker) to fall back on after aggression
-Sentries introduced
-Zealots stronger vs lings
-Stalkers can kite zerg's T1 counterpart (roaches)
-Protoss AoE threats (colossi) that can't be flanked (unless the protoss is terrible)
|
Agree. As a zerg I feel as if I'm at the mercy of whatever it is my opponent is doing and have to adapt to him instead of the other way around if I choose to be somewhat aggressive. You simply can't pressure enough as zerg before tier 2 and gain little scouting information suiciding lings. If only the other races had to fly a slow moving supply unit into certain doom just to catch a glimpse of what the opponent is making.
I think it's a huge map issue, and also just once of the many problems that is wrong with zerg right now. Lack of reliable early scouting, easy of wall ins for the other race, units that are literally hard countered in some way by the other races units that they would probably make any way (marauders/stalkers/hellions/tanks, etc.), the time it takes to get to tier 3, the necessity of getting to tier 3 if the opponent turtles in the least. I could go on and on, but it's all been said before. Also, where is zergs ranged splash unit? I'd take lurker over baneling any day, but they're just using the overlapping roles argument to sell expansions IMO.
|
People saying that the Roach is a ranged Tier 1 unit don't seem to understand. 3 Range attacking a wall may as well be Melee, as it is in plain range of any unit behind the wall.
We really should keep the references to Brood War style out of this. That wasn't my intention when making the post. I merely mentioned that Walls weren't as commonplace or as effective in Brood War.
I COMPLETELY agree that If wall-ins were completely impossible that Zerglings would be overpowered. I would never suggest that Wall-ins should be impossible, but perhaps there should be some potential negatives to building that wall... some threats to that wall at a Tier 1 level. A unit that can attack the wall from a distance at an early level, something that forces the terran or protoss to do something other than sit in his base and smile.
I've seen allot of stuff saying "Just use Nydus, overlord drops, muta harass", Yes, there are some mid-late game options for Zerg to begin being agressive, but this isn't about that. This is about the early game, which is a critical time to set the game.
|
If you removed all ramps and cliffs the game would be reasonably balanced. I don't think its necessarily any one thing. Some things may stick out more than others but it's all the little advantages and disadvantages added together.
|
On September 09 2010 12:51 RavenNevermore wrote:
People saying that the Roach is a ranged Tier 1 unit don't seem to understand. 3 Range attacking a wall may as well be Melee, as it is in plain range of any unit behind the wall.
We really should keep the references to Brood War style out of this. That wasn't my intention when making the post. I merely mentioned that Walls weren't as commonplace or as effective in Brood War.
I COMPLETELY agree that If wall-ins were completely impossible that Zerglings would be overpowered. I would never suggest that Wall-ins should be impossible, but perhaps there should be some potential negatives to building that wall... some threats to that wall at a Tier 1 level. A unit that can attack the wall from a distance at an early level, something that forces the terran or protoss to do something other than sit in his base and smile.
I've seen allot of stuff saying "Just use Nydus, overlord drops, muta harass", Yes, there are some mid-late game options for Zerg to begin being agressive, but this isn't about that. This is about the early game, which is a critical time to set the game.
100% agreed!
|
I agree.
Terran players/players who wall in, almost never experience early pressure/aggressiveness.
Zerg was the race to force pressure and be aggressive, but that's very hard for Zerg to do in SC2.
|
It's thinking like this imo that is the cause of the 4-gate/finish this asap syndrome plaguing ladder atm. I absolutely hate games that end in 10 minutes or less because of some lame early game rush that takes minimum skill and just happens to work half the time by chance. I'll wall-off and forcefield all day long until I'm ready to steamroll my opponent.
Also just food for thought but a Z T1 unit with long range would shut down any zealot use from P lead to questionable balance.
|
On September 09 2010 13:12 Cynoks wrote:
It's thinking like this imo that is the cause of the 4-gate/finish this asap syndrome plaguing ladder atm. I absolutely hate games that end in 10 minutes or less because of some lame early game rush that takes minimum skill and just happens to work half the time by chance. I'll wall-off and forcefield all day long until I'm ready to steamroll my opponent.
Also just food for thought but a Z T1 unit with long range would shut down any zealot use from P lead to questionable balance.
In what manner?
Make it 1.5 if you must but either way I don't see what you're saying because currently good zergling usage and roaches negate zealots on their own just as well...
|
Hey bro I have these 100 mineral 0 gas hellions that do crazy high damage to everything in a line and are really fast with no speed upgrade and are laughably easy to micro and can kill like, a crap load of workers and zerglings, you cant do this though, but that's okay. You dont need to hurt my economy. It's not like I can out produce you on one base when you have two right?
Can pump them out laughably fast and if you don't get roaches you're gonna be in trouble.
While you're making roaches to deal with these hellions I'm making some Marauders, yeah, they pretty much rip your roaches apart. I'll add a dash of marines too, so you're forced to make banelings. Yeah, that's nice. So now you've got two gas units being produced that require very gas heavy lair upgrades just to compete with my un-upgraded incredibly cheap gas marauders with laughably cheap upgrades that I can do at the same time out of two tech labs. You're forced to train baneling hooks and roach speed to have any hope whatsoever and use up all that gas you've been saving for some lair tech. Oh hey, I'm pushing now. Goodbye expansion to 5 marauders in 7 seconds with Stim. You didn't need that gas anyway right? I'll back off now to my base and get behind my wall. I don't need an expansion. All I need to do is build a few more marauders and balance off my Marines and I am 100% safe from absolutely anything you can build. If I don't want to, I can build a bunch of these here mechanical things. Oh I can build some flyers too! they can cloak and do crazy high damage to ground units.
What's that? You have to build exactly the same thing every game in order to have any hope of staying alive past my early "harass" with my cheap unfair units? well, that's okay. If you outplay me, out expand me, out produce me, and get ahead by two bases you _might_ beat me. But that's the way the game's supposed to be! I'm supposed to have 100% control of what you do, I'm supposed to have all the freedom to attack whenever I want, whenever I feel like it. I'm supposed to have a mass-able, cheap unit that can jump up and down cliffs, is stupid fast and gets a bonus to light AND rips buildings apart like they're paper.
Zerg is SUPPOSED to have throw away units! Why do you keep saying you need more! just keep throwing things at the problem. Let's not pretend that I can out produce you or anything like that! You get so many larvae. you can produce the same as like, 3 barracks on one hatchery! don't you have starhatcherys or Fatchery's or something? where do you get your other tech you silly zerg. Did I kill your queen in 2 seconds? Sorry! Better make another one. Darn that takes a long time to train... and it takes up supply as well? that kinda sucks.. but oh well, it can attack! mules can't attack you know.
Did you know there were 5 scvs inside my mech ball that just 1a'd your entire army and base in seconds? I didn't.. I was watching a movie. They were on auto-repair.
|
On September 09 2010 13:17 Nu11 wrote:
Hey bro I have these 100 mineral 0 gas hellions that do crazy high damage to everything in a line and are really fast with no speed upgrade and are laughably easy to micro and can kill like, a crap load of workers and zerglings, you cant do this though, but that's okay. You dont need to hurt my economy. It's not like I can out produce you on one base when you have two right?
Can pump them out laughably fast and if you don't get roaches you're gonna be in trouble.
While you're making roaches to deal with these hellions I'm making some Marauders, yeah, they pretty much rip your roaches apart. I'll add a dash of marines too, so you're forced to make banelings. Yeah, that's nice. So now you've got two gas units being produced that require very gas heavy lair upgrades just to compete with my un-upgraded incredibly cheap gas marauders with laughably cheap upgrades that I can do at the same time out of two tech labs. You're forced to train baneling hooks and roach speed to have any hope whatsoever and use up all that gas you've been saving for some lair tech. Oh hey, I'm pushing now. Goodbye expansion to 5 marauders in 7 seconds with Stim. You didn't need that gas anyway right? I'll back off now to my base and get behind my wall. I don't need an expansion. All I need to do is build a few more marauders and balance off my Marines and I am 100% safe from absolutely anything you can build. If I don't want to, I can build a bunch of these here mechanical things. Oh I can build some flyers too! they can cloak and do crazy high damage to ground units.
What's that? You have to build exactly the same thing every game in order to have any hope of staying alive past my early "harass" with my cheap unfair units? well, that's okay. If you outplay me, out expand me, out produce me, and get ahead by two bases you _might_ beat me. But that's the way the game's supposed to be! I'm supposed to have 100% control of what you do, I'm supposed to have all the freedom to attack whenever I want, whenever I feel like it. I'm supposed to have a mass-able, cheap unit that can jump up and down cliffs, is stupid fast and gets a bonus to light AND rips buildings apart like they're paper.
Zerg is SUPPOSED to have throw away units! Why do you keep saying you need more! just keep throwing things at the problem. Let's not pretend that I can out produce you or anything like that! You get so many larvae. you can produce the same as like, 3 barracks on one hatchery! don't you have starhatcherys or Fatchery's or something? where do you get your other tech you silly zerg. Did I kill your queen in 2 seconds? Sorry! Better make another one. Darn that takes a long time to train... and it takes up supply as well? that kinda sucks.. but oh well, it can attack! mules can't attack you know.
Did you know there were 5 scvs inside my mech ball that just 1a'd your entire army and base in seconds? I didn't.. I was watching a movie. They were on auto-repair.
As over the top as this was I giggled.
|
I know the suggestion of moving the Hydralisk to tier 1 is a total cliche, and I don't support that suggestion
Why? You don't support it just because it is cliché or for another reason? Opposing the idea just because a lot of people think it's a good one is just being contrary.
|
I don't get this talk of BW. TvZ walls are relatively commonplace and the point of a forge FE is to create a wall that zerglings cannot pass while you set up a really fast expo.
|
On September 09 2010 13:22 kingcomrade wrote:Show nested quote +I know the suggestion of moving the Hydralisk to tier 1 is a total cliche, and I don't support that suggestion Why? You don't support it just because it is cliché or for another reason? Opposing the idea just because a lot of people think it's a good one is just being contrary.
Heres why I don't support it myself... it's an unrealistic expectation.
Hydralisks are powerful units, moving them pre-lair would pretty much require a total revamp of the unit as a whole. I personally wouldn't mind this but Blizzard would never have it. Zerg is designed like crap but Blizzard is pretty dead set on them being relatively "ok"
|
I think the problem is due to the weakness of the zergs defensive structures.
Sunken colonies in Bw where very important for zerg to defend. The ability to go from creep to sunken meant that you didnt have to spend all the money building them early, but you could have them up to defend if you scouted a push early enough. Sunkens also worked as walls, allowing the zerg to create their own sort of wall that needed to be busted down before the enemy could wreck his base.
In SC2, the spine crawlers are comparitively much weaker, they have to be paid for in full up front, they take FOREVER to build and reposition (meaning you have to build them in advance) and dont block units like helions from just driving straight on past. The maps also have farr to open expansions, so the enemy can usually just walk around the spine crawlers and attack from the other side.
This makes it very tough for zerg to hold that first expansion like they could in broodwar. A standard build in BW was hatch first, however in SC2 Hatch first is considered to be very risky. Units like the reaper and sentry make defending 2 locations with units extremely tough.
In broodwar, zerg could be agressive with units or agressive with his economy. If a terran or protoss wanted to wall off, that was fine, but they were going to have to accept that the zerg was going to have that free natural expansion. In Sc2, zerg have soo much trouble defending that natural that they are forced to 1-base against a walled in opponent, meaning they cannot be agressive with either economy or units.
|
On September 09 2010 13:21 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 13:17 Nu11 wrote:
Hey bro I have these 100 mineral 0 gas hellions that do crazy high damage to everything in a line and are really fast with no speed upgrade and are laughably easy to micro and can kill like, a crap load of workers and zerglings, you cant do this though, but that's okay. You dont need to hurt my economy. It's not like I can out produce you on one base when you have two right?
Can pump them out laughably fast and if you don't get roaches you're gonna be in trouble.
While you're making roaches to deal with these hellions I'm making some Marauders, yeah, they pretty much rip your roaches apart. I'll add a dash of marines too, so you're forced to make banelings. Yeah, that's nice. So now you've got two gas units being produced that require very gas heavy lair upgrades just to compete with my un-upgraded incredibly cheap gas marauders with laughably cheap upgrades that I can do at the same time out of two tech labs. You're forced to train baneling hooks and roach speed to have any hope whatsoever and use up all that gas you've been saving for some lair tech. Oh hey, I'm pushing now. Goodbye expansion to 5 marauders in 7 seconds with Stim. You didn't need that gas anyway right? I'll back off now to my base and get behind my wall. I don't need an expansion. All I need to do is build a few more marauders and balance off my Marines and I am 100% safe from absolutely anything you can build. If I don't want to, I can build a bunch of these here mechanical things. Oh I can build some flyers too! they can cloak and do crazy high damage to ground units.
What's that? You have to build exactly the same thing every game in order to have any hope of staying alive past my early "harass" with my cheap unfair units? well, that's okay. If you outplay me, out expand me, out produce me, and get ahead by two bases you _might_ beat me. But that's the way the game's supposed to be! I'm supposed to have 100% control of what you do, I'm supposed to have all the freedom to attack whenever I want, whenever I feel like it. I'm supposed to have a mass-able, cheap unit that can jump up and down cliffs, is stupid fast and gets a bonus to light AND rips buildings apart like they're paper.
Zerg is SUPPOSED to have throw away units! Why do you keep saying you need more! just keep throwing things at the problem. Let's not pretend that I can out produce you or anything like that! You get so many larvae. you can produce the same as like, 3 barracks on one hatchery! don't you have starhatcherys or Fatchery's or something? where do you get your other tech you silly zerg. Did I kill your queen in 2 seconds? Sorry! Better make another one. Darn that takes a long time to train... and it takes up supply as well? that kinda sucks.. but oh well, it can attack! mules can't attack you know.
Did you know there were 5 scvs inside my mech ball that just 1a'd your entire army and base in seconds? I didn't.. I was watching a movie. They were on auto-repair.
As over the top as this was I giggled.
THAT'S BRILLIANT - ROOOOFL!
sad thing is, everything he wrote is true! -.-°
|
On September 09 2010 09:36 RavenNevermore wrote:
I admit, I wasn't much of a Starcraft 1 player back in my time, however, as the buildup for Starcraft 2 was imminent, I watched many MANY replays thanks to Husky and HDstarcraft,
Instantaneously your opinion became invalidated.
|
Get over it... The turtling race is now Zerg and the agressive race is now terran... Get over it
If zerg was as poor and unbalanced vs terran...it wouldnt be.... what is it... what 49% win/rate vs terran ?
If there is balance changes to be made... There will be... Until then find new solution that will make you OP post-patch
|
On September 09 2010 13:30 Yokoblue wrote:
Get over it... The turtling race is now Zerg and the agressive race is now terran... Get over it
If zerg was as poor and unbalanced vs terran...it wouldnt be.... what is it... what 49% win/rate vs terran ?
If there is balance changes to be made... There will be... Until then find new solution that will make you OP post-patch
Sorry I can't hear you from behind my wall, my factory is pretty loud.
You're so wrong. The turtling and the aggressive race is Terran. The struggling for their life race is zerg.
Win percentages mean nothing. The majority of players, especially Terran, do not deserve the ratings they get because of how horrible they are.
(I'm not saying all terran are bad, they most certainly are not. I'm just saying there's a lot of players rated a lot higher because of how terran is and have low win percentages because they belong in silver or gold while playing mid-high diamond)
|
On September 09 2010 13:30 Yokoblue wrote:
Get over it... The turtling race is now Zerg and the agressive race is now terran... Get over it
If zerg was as poor and unbalanced vs terran...it wouldnt be.... what is it... what 49% win/rate vs terran ?
If there is balance changes to be made... There will be... Until then find new solution that will make you OP post-patch
I don't mind playing a defensive race, but it's something else to be constantly defending against absolutey imbalanced Units.
And T is IMBA vs Z, don't be such an oblivious noob and try to say sth else.
I know ppl don't like to hear that their race is IMBA, because they just have way much more fun thinking stuff like: "WOOOOW, I beat another Zerg - I'm fkn AWESOME!"
Guess what: Playing Protoss or Terran is easy, playing Zerg isn't. Get over it or die - ur choice bronzey straight from the bronze-league!
FKN NOOBS!
MAAAAAKE MEEE RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!
|
On September 09 2010 13:30 Yokoblue wrote:
Get over it... The turtling race is now Zerg and the agressive race is now terran... Get over it
If zerg was as poor and unbalanced vs terran...it wouldnt be.... what is it... what 49% win/rate vs terran ?
If there is balance changes to be made... There will be... Until then find new solution that will make you OP post-patch
There needs to be a new rule made, that before posting in the SC2 FORUM you must spend a week reading posts.
This point has come up and it's been dealt with. The 49% win ratio means that the matchmaking system is working and nothing else.
Even the turtling race in BW had aggressive options, this is not the case now. "getting over it" never gets anything done..EVER.
So you need to know what you're talking about before spouting nonsense again.
|
On September 09 2010 12:26 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 12:16 Rabbet wrote:
When I first started playing Brood War, I could never understand why my marines sucked against zerglings so bad(and zeolots). I couldn't even get a decent number of marines to be aggressive with because I had to bunker my ramp or my minerals to stop zerg(protoss) from destroying me in the first 5 minutes of the game. One day I observed another terran playing and learned how to wall off my choke. It made the game instantly better and made the terran race actually playable with low apm. After that the problem of harassment by air was the next major obstacle and I had to basically expect mutalisks and build a bunch of turrets(we did have ONE scan to figure the tech out). So after making mutas useless on a backstab, I could finally begin to think about moving out of my base...but not until I had a tank or 2 and a science vessel. So after researching 3 upgrades(irradiate, stim and range for marines), building several barracks, several turrets, all the depots to match the army, an engineering bay, academy, a factory with machine shop and a starport I could finally think about later in the game and plan for a command center for the extra economy. I must say that playing Terran in Brood War was a learning curve, but I toughed it out and eventually people(and maps) started doing 1 rax expansions and mech play etc.
Does this uphill battle sound familiar?
My point? Zergs just have to tough it out and learn how to combat the early crap Terran and Protoss can throw at them. I didn't like fighting uphill in Brood War, but I did it and didn't think it was unfair because eventually the evolution of the game will occur. If I didn't see Boxer kicking ass with Terran I wouldn't be playing the game anymore either, meaning that if most of you zergs suck that doesn't mean that zerg sucks you just are not capable of playing them. TvZ is in no way an uphill battle for T in BW. You just didn't know how to play properly. Suggesting that every Zerg player (including players like IdrA and DIMAGA) just hasn't figured out how to play is pathetic and a poorly thought out excuse by non-Zerg players. Not only that, it's a problem either way - isn't it a problem if it's significantly harder for Zerg to figure out/execute anything compared to P and T?
TvZ was an uphill battle in BW, for me and alot of other players until builds were created and tricks were used to cut certain corners. Suggesting that the players and maps don't evolve and that players can "figure out" this game so quickly is poorly thought out, as we are still seeing both BW and SC2 evolve every day. Games played in the pro BW leagues in the last 3 months have even changed quite a bit...why? Map pool, better mechanics and new strategies.
It is the same problem that "just put mines in your base and use alot of missile turrets...and try to emp the arbiters..." answers. It just takes time to work out the solution and time to practice using the solution to stop certain types of attacks. Nobody ever thought Protoss were overpowered even though they made up a large percentage of the c-b+ iccup population. I lost alot of games to recall, but I adapted and used different strategies to stop it and eventually learned the arbiter timings pretty well.
|
On September 09 2010 13:33 Nu11 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 13:30 Yokoblue wrote:
Get over it... The turtling race is now Zerg and the agressive race is now terran... Get over it
If zerg was as poor and unbalanced vs terran...it wouldnt be.... what is it... what 49% win/rate vs terran ?
If there is balance changes to be made... There will be... Until then find new solution that will make you OP post-patch Sorry I can't hear you from behind my wall, my factory is pretty loud. You're so wrong. The turtling and the aggressive race is Terran. The struggling for their life race is zerg. Win percentages mean nothing. The majority of players, especially Terran, do not deserve the ratings they get because of how horrible they are. (I'm not saying all terran are bad, they most certainly are not. I'm just saying there's a lot of players rated a lot higher because of how terran is and have low win percentages because they belong in silver or gold while playing mid-high diamond)
they're not going to balance the game according to the horrible players making it high cuz one race is easier to use at mid level, it was the same in broodwar where Protoss was much easier to use at a low level than terran or zerg
tweaks will soon be made to make it more balanced at a high level, but don't expect some major change that will make zerg as easy to use as terran, it is simply impossible, people are asking for way too much
|
On September 09 2010 13:34 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 13:30 Yokoblue wrote:
Get over it... The turtling race is now Zerg and the agressive race is now terran... Get over it
If zerg was as poor and unbalanced vs terran...it wouldnt be.... what is it... what 49% win/rate vs terran ?
If there is balance changes to be made... There will be... Until then find new solution that will make you OP post-patch I don't mind playing a defensive race, but it's something else to be constantly defending against absolutey imbalanced Units. And T is IMBA vs Z, don't be such an oblivious noob and try to say sth else. I know ppl don't like to hear that their race is IMBA, because they just have way much more fun thinking stuff like: "WOOOOW, I beat another Zerg - I'm fkn AWESOME!" Guess what: Playing Protoss or Terran is easy, playing Zerg isn't. Get over it or die - ur choice bronzey straight from the bronze-league! FKN NOOBS! MAAAAAKE MEEE RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!
Seriously?
Anyway, every race are great... just that zerg have a difficult mechanic, they gonna fix it next expension... in 1.5 year.
|
On September 09 2010 13:17 Nu11 wrote:
Hey bro I have these 100 mineral 0 gas hellions that do crazy high damage to everything in a line and are really fast with no speed upgrade and are laughably easy to micro and can kill like, a crap load of workers and zerglings, you cant do this though, but that's okay. You dont need to hurt my economy. It's not like I can out produce you on one base when you have two right?
Can pump them out laughably fast and if you don't get roaches you're gonna be in trouble.
While you're making roaches to deal with these hellions I'm making some Marauders, yeah, they pretty much rip your roaches apart. I'll add a dash of marines too, so you're forced to make banelings. Yeah, that's nice. So now you've got two gas units being produced that require very gas heavy lair upgrades just to compete with my un-upgraded incredibly cheap gas marauders with laughably cheap upgrades that I can do at the same time out of two tech labs. You're forced to train baneling hooks and roach speed to have any hope whatsoever and use up all that gas you've been saving for some lair tech. Oh hey, I'm pushing now. Goodbye expansion to 5 marauders in 7 seconds with Stim. You didn't need that gas anyway right? I'll back off now to my base and get behind my wall. I don't need an expansion. All I need to do is build a few more marauders and balance off my Marines and I am 100% safe from absolutely anything you can build. If I don't want to, I can build a bunch of these here mechanical things. Oh I can build some flyers too! they can cloak and do crazy high damage to ground units.
What's that? You have to build exactly the same thing every game in order to have any hope of staying alive past my early "harass" with my cheap unfair units? well, that's okay. If you outplay me, out expand me, out produce me, and get ahead by two bases you _might_ beat me. But that's the way the game's supposed to be! I'm supposed to have 100% control of what you do, I'm supposed to have all the freedom to attack whenever I want, whenever I feel like it. I'm supposed to have a mass-able, cheap unit that can jump up and down cliffs, is stupid fast and gets a bonus to light AND rips buildings apart like they're paper.
Zerg is SUPPOSED to have throw away units! Why do you keep saying you need more! just keep throwing things at the problem. Let's not pretend that I can out produce you or anything like that! You get so many larvae. you can produce the same as like, 3 barracks on one hatchery! don't you have starhatcherys or Fatchery's or something? where do you get your other tech you silly zerg. Did I kill your queen in 2 seconds? Sorry! Better make another one. Darn that takes a long time to train... and it takes up supply as well? that kinda sucks.. but oh well, it can attack! mules can't attack you know.
Did you know there were 5 scvs inside my mech ball that just 1a'd your entire army and base in seconds? I didn't.. I was watching a movie. They were on auto-repair.
Hilarious and fairly accurate rant.
|
On September 09 2010 13:30 Yokoblue wrote:
Get over it... The turtling race is now Zerg and the agressive race is now terran... Get over it
If zerg was as poor and unbalanced vs terran...it wouldnt be.... what is it... what 49% win/rate vs terran ?
If there is balance changes to be made... There will be... Until then find new solution that will make you OP post-patch
i can accept my zergies as a turtling race, and i can accept Terran as the aggresive race.
but why would they give the aggresive race the best turtling methods, and the turtling race the least amount of turtling methods.
im not crying imbalanced. but giving a race who can wall in perfectly, with 4 turrets deter any sort of air harass, with 2 siege tanks prevent any sort of frontal assualt. then giving that race THE best harassing unit's in the reaper and hellion.
Zerg is not the turtling race anyway. they are the macro oriented race. blizzard has based zerg on being able to have 1-2 more bases then their opponents. yet, they have given the other 2 races extremely effiecint ways of preventing zerg getting that extra base, and haven't given zerg any way to deter the early pressure and take their expo. here lies the problem. if a race is based on having more bases then their opponent, yet is unable to have an more bases. one would presume zerg would be at a huge disadvantage. 1 base zerg cannot compete with 1 base T or P. yet due to current reaper strats, 2 gates holding our ramp. we cannot get that extra base. and in fact during the time we cant get our expansion, our opponent takes their expansion. meaning we now need 3 bases to compete, yet we havent even taken our second.
larger maps will allow hatch first builds to flourish. before you say that will be OP for zerg. that also allows T and P to have FE builds. meaning T and P now fight to prevent zerg getting a third, trying to keep a 2 base vs 2 base game for as long as they can.
those who dont believe that larger maps will help. play on some of the ICCUP maps, they are brilliant, 5x better then blizzards bullshit map pool
|
"the turtling race is now zerg" hmmm
brb quick, let me get my infested siege tank , infested bunker and infested turret. I wouldnt mind if you let me neural parasite your thors. don't worry my hatcheries have ibiki cannons on the top now.
|
On September 09 2010 13:30 Yokoblue wrote:
Get over it... The turtling race is now Zerg and the agressive race is now terran... Get over it
If zerg was as poor and unbalanced vs terran...it wouldnt be.... what is it... what 49% win/rate vs terran ?
If there is balance changes to be made... There will be... Until then find new solution that will make you OP post-patch
The problem isn't that zerg is now the turtling race. The problem is that terran is still the turtling race and now has become the aggressive race as well. Basically the only thing that a zerg can do after successfully winning a battle is sit back and expand. There's no possibility of counterattack unless the opponent has no macro and doesn't know how to defend. I played a game against a terran player today. The only way that I won was I double expanded after I killed his army. Then eventually I was able to starve him out. Zergs don't have any way to just end a game or counter attack because terrans just have such an advantage on the defensive.
Again I have to remind you that winrates mean nothing because the system balances it so that you are faced with players your own level. Therefore if a terran has less skill than I he could still be put up against me and the winrate would still be 50 percent even though I'm playing players less skilled.
My problem with the zerg isn't so much the wall in. It's the fact that terrans have so many ways to end the game. Ending the game is the fun part of the match up. It's the satisfaction of having overcome your opponent through superior strategy. Terrans have reapers, hellions, banshees, maurader drops (do you have any idea how much loosing a spawning pool/spire actually hurts), and thor drops to successfully end the game very quickly if the zerg player doesn't defend well enough. With zerg each victory feels hollow because you had to macro up like a fiend in order to win. It's very frustrating to have to kill an army again and again and again just to keep macroing and absorbing damage being afraid all the while that you will die because you had 1 bad battle where your army gets destroyed.
Note: No one here is complaining about balance. The only thing I'm complaining about is that the match up of tvz is not fun for the zerg player. It's not fun to keep taking it up the *** and hope that it doesn't go too deep.
|
On September 09 2010 13:54 Zerksys wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 13:30 Yokoblue wrote:
Get over it... The turtling race is now Zerg and the agressive race is now terran... Get over it
If zerg was as poor and unbalanced vs terran...it wouldnt be.... what is it... what 49% win/rate vs terran ?
If there is balance changes to be made... There will be... Until then find new solution that will make you OP post-patch The problem isn't that zerg is now the turtling race. The problem is that terran is still the turtling race and now has become the aggressive race as well. Basically the only thing that a zerg can do after successfully winning a battle is sit back and expand. There's no possibility of counterattack unless the opponent has no macro and doesn't know how to defend. I played a game against a terran player today. The only way that I won was I double expanded after I killed his army. Then eventually I was able to starve him out. Zergs don't have any way to just end a game or counter attack because terrans just have such an advantage on the defensive. Again I have to remind you that winrates mean nothing because the system balances it so that you are faced with players your own level. Therefore if a terran has less skill than I he could still be put up against me and the winrate would still be 50 percent even though I'm playing players less skilled. My problem with the zerg isn't so much the wall in. It's the fact that terrans have so many ways to end the game. Ending the game is the fun part of the match up. It's the satisfaction of having overcome your opponent through superior strategy. Terrans have reapers, hellions, banshees, maurader drops (do you have any idea how much loosing a spawning pool/spire actually hurts), and thor drops to successfully end the game very quickly if the zerg player doesn't defend well enough. With zerg each victory feels hollow because you had to macro up like a fiend in order to win. It's very frustrating to have to kill an army again and again and again just to keep macroing and absorbing damage being afraid all the while that you will die because you had 1 bad battle where your army gets destroyed. Note: No one here is complaining about balance. The only thing I'm complaining about is that the match up of tvz is not fun for the zerg player. It's not fun to keep taking it up the *** and hope that it doesn't go too deep.
your a lier, we have nydus wurm!
jokes. i know what you mean, when a game ends it seems for the other races it happens because of some epic micro in a drop, or a lovely timing push. but when zerg wins, its because we out macroed and outplayed someone for 20+ minutes finally winning the game after throwing horde after horde just to take out the last few units they have. but theres one good thing about that. personally i feel at an advantage in anygame that lasts 20+ minutes, i played AoE2 at high level so im used to long games. and considering most T and P players are used to winning with all in pushs or timing pushs during the mid game, when that fails they usually dont have much experiance in long games. leading to them suffering a long death. simply because they dont know what to do. then you'll actually see them crying imbalance because they cant beat a 5+ base zerg throwing armies that them, when they are only on 2 maybe 3 bases. and two of those bases are mined out.
|
whooaaa wrong forum sorry
|
On September 09 2010 14:03 mierin wrote:
I'm sure even the top of Korean players would suggest T>Z>P (no, not P>T) as far as the metagame.
Actually, most Koreans agree that Protoss is the strongest race...
To even suggest Protoss is worse than Zerg shows me you have no clue whatsoever.
|
On September 09 2010 12:16 Rabbet wrote:
When I first started playing Brood War, I could never understand why my marines sucked against zerglings so bad(and zeolots). I couldn't even get a decent number of marines to be aggressive with because I had to bunker my ramp or my minerals to stop zerg(protoss) from destroying me in the first 5 minutes of the game. One day I observed another terran playing and learned how to wall off my choke. It made the game instantly better and made the terran race actually playable with low apm. After that the problem of harassment by air was the next major obstacle and I had to basically expect mutalisks and build a bunch of turrets(we did have ONE scan to figure the tech out). So after making mutas useless on a backstab, I could finally begin to think about moving out of my base...but not until I had a tank or 2 and a science vessel. So after researching 3 upgrades(irradiate, stim and range for marines), building several barracks, several turrets, all the depots to match the army, an engineering bay, academy, a factory with machine shop and a starport I could finally think about later in the game and plan for a command center for the extra economy. I must say that playing Terran in Brood War was a learning curve, but I toughed it out and eventually people(and maps) started doing 1 rax expansions and mech play etc.
Does this uphill battle sound familiar?
My point? Zergs just have to tough it out and learn how to combat the early crap Terran and Protoss can throw at them. I didn't like fighting uphill in Brood War, but I did it and didn't think it was unfair because eventually the evolution of the game will occur. If I didn't see Boxer kicking ass with Terran I wouldn't be playing the game anymore either, meaning that if most of you zergs suck that doesn't mean that zerg sucks you just are not capable of playing them.
Here's the difference. After all that, SC1 Terrans ultimately had the tools necessary to deal with it. They have cheap Missile Turrets, and building lifting which makes wall-in possible in SC1. The Terrans were the defensive race, so being able to defend relatively inexpensively was what they did. They had to play defensively to win, because they were defensive.
The Zerg are not defensive; they never have been, and SC2 hasn't changed that. Even if a Zerg throws a Hatchery+Spine Crawler at the ramp to wall-in, Reapers can bypass it with ease. Their Tier 1 ranged unit is barely ranged. Their macro mechanic (Queen) requires them to stop teching; you can't get a Lair while your Queen is being built, so your entire tech pattern is stalled by making one.
In short, the Zerg cannot simply position buildings better and build a few extra buildings like SC1 Terrans could. They can't hole up, fortify, and then decide to move out on their terms.
Get over it... The turtling race is now Zerg and the agressive race is now terran... Get over it
OK, fine: I'll play the turtling race. Just like SC1, however, I want the tools necessary to make turtling successful. And the Zerg in SC2 do not have that.
How about if I took away Missile Turrets from Terrans in SC1? Oh, it's still balanced; you can just fast-tech to Vessels for detection and use Bunkers. They can shoot air, right? Everything's fine, right?
|
On September 09 2010 13:26 Fen wrote:
I think the problem is due to the weakness of the zergs defensive structures.
Sunken colonies in Bw where very important for zerg to defend. The ability to go from creep to sunken meant that you didnt have to spend all the money building them early, but you could have them up to defend if you scouted a push early enough. Sunkens also worked as walls, allowing the zerg to create their own sort of wall that needed to be busted down before the enemy could wreck his base.
In SC2, the spine crawlers are comparitively much weaker, they have to be paid for in full up front, they take FOREVER to build and reposition (meaning you have to build them in advance) and dont block units like helions from just driving straight on past. The maps also have farr to open expansions, so the enemy can usually just walk around the spine crawlers and attack from the other side.
This makes it very tough for zerg to hold that first expansion like they could in broodwar. A standard build in BW was hatch first, however in SC2 Hatch first is considered to be very risky. Units like the reaper and sentry make defending 2 locations with units extremely tough.
In broodwar, zerg could be agressive with units or agressive with his economy. If a terran or protoss wanted to wall off, that was fine, but they were going to have to accept that the zerg was going to have that free natural expansion. In Sc2, zerg have soo much trouble defending that natural that they are forced to 1-base against a walled in opponent, meaning they cannot be agressive with either economy or units.
I've been saying this for a long time. SPINE CRAWLERS ARE SO BAD.
Sunkens were powerful and killed stuff pretty fast. The longest range tier 1-1.5 in BW were dragoons, while dragoons dealt pretty good damage against sunkens, it was difficult when swarms of speedlings were backing them up. Zerg can build up proper defense holding them off.
But now, what does Zerg get? Relatively crappy spine crawler that needs to paid fully up front, no creep phase to anticipate any push. Terran? WOW! LET'S GIVE THEM SALVAGEABLE BUNKERS! That's a fair trade off right?! Oh wait, let's also give Terran a unit that deals INSANE dps to structures.. Thank you Marauders, how come you haven't been nerfed yet?
Oh wait, let's just make it even tougher by letting the opponent's army BALL UP! Yes, the zerglings have a great time surrounding that alright.
Now all that wouldn't be absolutely terrible but.. guess what! Since Zerg has terrible scouting abilities, and need to invest a lot in case of an all-in powerful push, they invest a lot in a zergling/roach/baneling/spine crawler force... Incoming Banshee/Void Ray... FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU..
Of course, you can easily say "oh, just scout better, duh" Yes, you could, but you know, it's so hard to sack a few hundred minerals + supply to MAYBE see your tech. Did I mention you can just switch tech labs and reactors in and out between your barracks, factories, starports? How fair is that?
Look, I'm a random player so I don't really favor any race in particular, but Terrans have to be blind to say that ZvT is not an uphill battle where the Zerg has to play near perfect against a smart Terran in order to win. I personally say that the MU isn't imba, but it's pretty damn tough. Right now, a Hellion+Marine+Marauder+Thor army is one of the hardest things in the world to deal with for Zerg. and it's not like it's very difficult to get either.
|
Heres why I don't support it myself... it's an unrealistic expectation.
I understand where you're coming from, but I think Blizzard should do whatever it takes. I mean, it's not that hard. Blizzard is capable of it, with their billions of dollars from WoW. They can put in the time and effort to rebalance a unit for being T1. It's not even that big a deal.
|
On September 09 2010 09:49 RavenNevermore wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it. Very constructive. I do play the game, and I adapt to what I'm given, however I think the lack of ability to be agressive early is really hurting the zerg as a race.
Zergs can't be agressive in BW as well untill the opponent moves out, your point being?
|
On September 09 2010 14:26 Mortician wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 09:49 RavenNevermore wrote:On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it. Very constructive. I do play the game, and I adapt to what I'm given, however I think the lack of ability to be agressive early is really hurting the zerg as a race. Zergs can't be agressive in BW as well untill the opponent moves out, your point being?
Well, the thing with BW's metagame, no one tries to be aggressive off one base anymore. Tier 1 units just aren't strong enough to break any solid defense. Something you just don't see in SC2. So technically, Zerg were typically the first aggressors with Muta harass. Try to think of ZvT games where there's a big exchange going on pre-3hatch mutas. There definitely isn't a lot.
|
On September 09 2010 14:15 cHaNg-sTa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 13:26 Fen wrote:
I think the problem is due to the weakness of the zergs defensive structures.
Sunken colonies in Bw where very important for zerg to defend. The ability to go from creep to sunken meant that you didnt have to spend all the money building them early, but you could have them up to defend if you scouted a push early enough. Sunkens also worked as walls, allowing the zerg to create their own sort of wall that needed to be busted down before the enemy could wreck his base.
In SC2, the spine crawlers are comparitively much weaker, they have to be paid for in full up front, they take FOREVER to build and reposition (meaning you have to build them in advance) and dont block units like helions from just driving straight on past. The maps also have farr to open expansions, so the enemy can usually just walk around the spine crawlers and attack from the other side.
This makes it very tough for zerg to hold that first expansion like they could in broodwar. A standard build in BW was hatch first, however in SC2 Hatch first is considered to be very risky. Units like the reaper and sentry make defending 2 locations with units extremely tough.
In broodwar, zerg could be agressive with units or agressive with his economy. If a terran or protoss wanted to wall off, that was fine, but they were going to have to accept that the zerg was going to have that free natural expansion. In Sc2, zerg have soo much trouble defending that natural that they are forced to 1-base against a walled in opponent, meaning they cannot be agressive with either economy or units. I've been saying this for a long time. SPINE CRAWLERS ARE SO BAD. Sunkens were powerful and killed stuff pretty fast. The longest range tier 1-1.5 in BW were dragoons, while dragoons dealt pretty good damage against sunkens, it was difficult when swarms of speedlings were backing them up. Zerg can build up proper defense holding them off. But now, what does Zerg get? Relatively crappy spine crawler that needs to paid fully up front, no creep phase to anticipate any push. Terran? WOW! LET'S GIVE THEM SALVAGEABLE BUNKERS! That's a fair trade off right?! Oh wait, let's also give Terran a unit that deals INSANE dps to structures.. Thank you Marauders, how come you haven't been nerfed yet? Oh wait, let's just make it even tougher by letting the opponent's army BALL UP! Yes, the zerglings have a great time surrounding that alright. Now all that wouldn't be absolutely terrible but.. guess what! Since Zerg has terrible scouting abilities, and need to invest a lot in case of an all-in powerful push, they invest a lot in a zergling/roach/baneling/spine crawler force... Incoming Banshee/Void Ray... FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.. Of course, you can easily say "oh, just scout better, duh" Yes, you could, but you know, it's so hard to sack a few hundred minerals + supply to MAYBE see your tech. Did I mention you can just switch tech labs and reactors in and out between your barracks, factories, starports? How fair is that? Look, I'm a random player so I don't really favor any race in particular, but Terrans have to be blind to say that ZvT is not an uphill battle where the Zerg has to play near perfect against a smart Terran in order to win. I personally say that the MU isn't imba, but it's pretty damn tough. Right now, a Hellion+Marine+Marauder+Thor army is one of the hardest things in the world to deal with for Zerg. and it's not like it's very difficult to get either.
I'd be sooo happy if Spine Crawlers would be actually useful in SC2, but for that to happen, a LOT of things need to change:
- Either Spine Crawlers need +1 Range, or Marauders -1 Range.
- No Unit, at least not until T2, should do ANY additional DMG to buildings - not Marauders, not Reapers - NONE!
- sth needs to be done about Reapers; Cliffhoppers THAT early in the game? Even if they would deal no additional DMG to buildings, they'd still force the Zerg to build the double amount of Spine Crawlers, or at least more, cuz they'd need to defend their base as well. No other Unit until T2 can just "bypass" structural defense at the front and that's how it needs to be!
- Blizzard should finally learn to make decent Maps. Wide open Naturals, destructable backdoor-rocks etc. just totally make static defense obsolete.
- Spine Crawlers either should be built from a "Crawler Colony" or sth, like in BW, so you didn't need to invest the full cost when you felt like the opponent might push out soon, or they should build much faster. They really build incredibly slow atm.
- Fix the damn rooting of the Spine Crawlers so that they don't take 20 hours to root - it really is annoying and the nerf to that was absolutely not needed to begin with.
|
I think it's P?T>Z. Both races have a pretty high number of ridiculously strong early game pushes which are simply overpowered against Zerg, not because of the push itself but because neither T or P has to sacrifice anything to do the push, while a Zerg has to sacrifice a LOT to defend it. We can not simply make drones + produce defending units and build defensive structures at the same time as the other 2 races, which is what makes these pushes imbalanced. In BW the Zerg units were simply a lot stronger than our arsenal in SC2, so you didn't need as many units to defend early aggression.
As for P?T, it seems to me that Terran is too strong early and midgame but once a game reaches endgame when there are more Collosi and High Templars in the game, it becomes somewhat imbalanced in favour of Protoss.
|
idk about u but speed lings is enuff "aggression" imo
|
On September 09 2010 15:32 TungVu wrote:
idk about u but speed lings is enuff "aggression" imo
well, you've clearly been following this discussion carefully before you crawled out under your bridge and trolled us all...
|
On September 09 2010 12:16 Rabbet wrote:
When I first started playing Brood War, I could never understand why my marines sucked against zerglings so bad(and zeolots). I couldn't even get a decent number of marines to be aggressive with because I had to bunker my ramp or my minerals to stop zerg(protoss) from destroying me in the first 5 minutes of the game. One day I observed another terran playing and learned how to wall off my choke. It made the game instantly better and made the terran race actually playable with low apm. After that the problem of harassment by air was the next major obstacle and I had to basically expect mutalisks and build a bunch of turrets(we did have ONE scan to figure the tech out). So after making mutas useless on a backstab, I could finally begin to think about moving out of my base...but not until I had a tank or 2 and a science vessel. So after researching 3 upgrades(irradiate, stim and range for marines), building several barracks, several turrets, all the depots to match the army, an engineering bay, academy, a factory with machine shop and a starport I could finally think about later in the game and plan for a command center for the extra economy. I must say that playing Terran in Brood War was a learning curve, but I toughed it out and eventually people(and maps) started doing 1 rax expansions and mech play etc.
Does this uphill battle sound familiar?
My point? Zergs just have to tough it out and learn how to combat the early crap Terran and Protoss can throw at them. I didn't like fighting uphill in Brood War, but I did it and didn't think it was unfair because eventually the evolution of the game will occur. If I didn't see Boxer kicking ass with Terran I wouldn't be playing the game anymore either, meaning that if most of you zergs suck that doesn't mean that zerg sucks you just are not capable of playing them.
What you just said was that you sucked so you learned to wall off. Fine I can stand by that as well, it helps low apm players stay alive long enough that they can get an army. But the part that seems rude and uncalled for is that you said Zerg players suck because they cant handle the early game. To say that is being very, very hypocritical seeing as Zerg dont get the easy defense that comes from a wall.
Protoss and Terran are immune to harass until the 10 minute mark, (longer if they are good and harass the zerg and there is no reason to not harass a Zerg player as even a failed harass will put hte Zerg way behind in economy.) Zerg has the least ammount of options available at all points in the game and it shows in most pro games.
|
Races are not the same, oh my god! Zerg has to play differently.
"But in BW I could.." Don't! This is SC2.
Learn to play with your race in this game.
Sure if the metagame turns into some boring thing where ppl always have to do the same things, Zerg can't attack etc, then blizzard will likely react.
But that is not close yet because the top level playstyles *are still evolving fast*. You don't know how top Zergs play one month from now.
|
why is it always the worst players or people who play terran who chime into these threads like no one else knows what they are talking about. i think one guy said something like "oh well terran walls in then zerg has map control to freely expand" in what fucking fairy land with candy canes and puppies are you fucking living in.
you have the freedom you expand and macro till reapers show to your base followed by 5 rack marauder/stim + reaper. if you want to know what its truly like to play zerg then go ladder.
|
On September 09 2010 16:34 Siwa wrote:
Races are not the same, oh my god! Zerg has to play differently.
"But in BW I could.." Don't! This is SC2.
Learn to play with your race in this game.
Sure if the metagame turns into some boring thing where ppl always have to do the same things, Zerg can't attack etc, then blizzard will likely react.
But that is not close yet because the top level playstyles *are still evolving fast*. You don't know how top Zergs play one month from now.
Not everyone in the world is a top player. Problems in Zerg playstyle are evident, should we ignore the problems of 99% of the players playing Zerg just because a few elite top players have the skill and APM to survive? The point here isn't that Zerg plays differently, it's that they are inferior. Or are you saying that Blizzard meant for T and P to have all the freedom in the world to be aggressive at any point in the game, while Zerg has to wait until mid-game?
Why not make a new race which has only one unit which sucks, all races are supposed to be different right?
EDIT: And I want to add to that, saying "Zerg is the new turtling race" shows no understanding at all of how Zerg has to be played. How could Zerg possibly turtle? We can't wall, we have no tanks nor lurkers, our static defense is extremely expensive (two different kinds, sacrifices a drone), we have no decent AA before Hydra. If zerg was truly supposed to be a turtling race, blizzard made some huge mistakes in their design.
|
You are right on the more passive playstyle but clearly wrong on the wall in.
PvZ -> Forge, Cannons, Gate = FE+Wall in
TvZ -> 1Rax, 2 Supply = Wall in behind your ramp or outside and FE
|
The game is fine as it is.
For one, you absolutely cannot base the balance of the game on the casual players.
Face it, SC is a competitive game, it's only natural to base the balance on the pro-gamers and have the rest learn from them and get better.
For two, Zerg never was and is not supposed to be the aggressor throughout the game.
Even in TvZ in BW, terran always had a window for timed attack with rines and medics before spire finishes. You guys are nagging about the wrong point.
|
I would just like to chime in as a Protoss player.
Without walling in the early game would be literally impossible. The Zerg can have 6-12 lings at your ramp by the time you have 1 zealot, with one warping in (if you 12 gated) or two if you 10 gated. You can fend the zerglings off at this point with a wall, but without one it would just be get zerglings -> a move -> win.
|
True..
But things get stupid when the Terran is the aggressor and has X diffrent ways to be that agressor for basically 90% of the game until Z hit's T3 incl. Ultra-Tech.
FFS Terran can pull SCV's into the fight and does not fall significantly behind in economy due to Mules. It's just retarded.
|
On September 09 2010 16:34 Siwa wrote:
Races are not the same, oh my god! Zerg has to play differently.
"But in BW I could.." Don't! This is SC2.
Learn to play with your race in this game.
Sure if the metagame turns into some boring thing where ppl always have to do the same things, Zerg can't attack etc, then blizzard will likely react.
But that is not close yet because the top level playstyles *are still evolving fast*. You don't know how top Zergs play one month from now.
I'm sorry, but this is just the wrong thinking. It's very easy to say that "oh SC2 hasn't even been out that long, you can't make any assumptions about the future of the game". While I somewhat agree with this statement, you can't just make wild accusations of "learn to play your race" as of all the zerg players have no idea what they're doing and obviously all the Terrans "learned" their race better.
I've been there before. I was a high level Melee player (earned probably around $2000 over the course of my "career") winning tournaments around the Dallas area. And when Brawl was announced, I was very excited. It turns out, the game was a shell of its former self. I was in denial and believed "oh, just give it time, Melee didn't become great over night". But the sad reality is, players are much better now, they know what to look for, we'll understand the game much faster. And guess what? People thought Metaknight was broken day 1, and.. MK is still pretty freakin broken. Nowadays, almost all the Melee players still play Melee and stay away from Brawl. There are even people trying to mod Brawl to play like Melee. Most tournament players will tell you that Melee is a far better game than Brawl in terms of a competitive game.
Now, I'm definitely not saying that Brawl is anything like SC2, this is VERY FAR from the case. I enjoy SC2 a lot. But why is it bad to draw the good things from the previous game? Just because it's a different game doesn't mean we can't try to imitate the good stuff. A popular fighting game such as Street Fighter changes from their predecessors, but they keep the same core idea and it succeeds.
Back to the whole point, it doesn't take a genius to tell that Zerg has very little harassing abilities early in the game, the very first solid harassing options is with Mutas, but Zerg is very vulnerable to any sort of push that comes before hand. Zerg play styles are not really evolving fast. They went from Roach/Hydra/Infestor style to Mutaling/Baneling style and get to Tier 3 if Zerg can survive that long. And these units just happen to be almost all of the Zerg units. They just don't have a lot to work with. The only biggest advancement is the magic box, but even then, Terrans are slowly
incorporating hellions with their marine/thor push and making it a huge pain to deal with again.
Terran and Protoss have on the other hand, millions of options. Terran can open reaper harass, can MM harass, Hellion harass, Thor drop, Banshee rush, Viking harass overlords, even Koreans are doing ghost drops and sniping/nuking. Is it because Terran players are just smarter than Zerg players? No. It's because Zerg just has limited options. They can do.... Mutas harass, and kinda Nydus Worm.. The rest of Zerg's strats are "counter whatever they have" because that's the only solid option that Zerg has. You know how sad that is? It's getting REALLY boring to play Zerg because of it. I don't find it so bad because I play Random, but I can't imagine Zerg players do what they do every single game.
|
On September 09 2010 17:05 ghermination wrote:
I would just like to chime in as a Protoss player.
Without walling in the early game would be literally impossible. The Zerg can have 6-12 lings at your ramp by the time you have 1 zealot, with one warping in (if you 12 gated) or two if you 10 gated. You can fend the zerglings off at this point with a wall, but without one it would just be get zerglings -> a move -> win.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that walls should be removed, it's a classic element from BW and like you said, both terran and protoss would be at a huge disadvantage without it. What is being suggested is that zerg needs a better way to put pressure on the wall so that the opponent can't simply ignore the wall and tech up.
|
On September 09 2010 10:12 Angra wrote:
The reason pro BW players don't wall in as much as you see in SC2 against zerg is because they're able to handle any kind of ling all-ins and what have you without the walling. It's a lot easier to plug chokes in BW with units, and it's a bit more difficult to handle without a wall in SC2 because of how much faster lings are and how good they are at auto-surrounding, at least in the early game.
Not to mention, you could block ramps with only 2 zealots/marines/SCVs in BW, and it's impossible to do that in SC2, hence why walling is seen so much more.
I really don't think walling is any reason at all for why zerg is considered "underpowered" currently.
EDIT: Zerg didn't have tier 1 ranged units in BW either. Protoss didn't either, and they don't in SC2 as well.
tier 1 = hatchery. With no lair you could make the ranged unit hydralisks. It's harder to classify dragoons to a certain tire but they were a HUGE early threat to terrans walling
|
On September 09 2010 17:03 LuciferSC wrote:
The game is fine as it is.
For one, you absolutely cannot base the balance of the game on the casual players.
Face it, SC is a competitive game, it's only natural to base the balance on the pro-gamers and have the rest learn from them and get better.
For two, Zerg never was and is not supposed to be the aggressor throughout the game.
Even in TvZ in BW, terran always had a window for timed attack with rines and medics before spire finishes. You guys are nagging about the wrong point.
Yea, they had a timed attack. And this timed attack can easily be stopped by creep colonies being laid down before hand + speedlings. It's almost to the point that most Terran players don't even bother. Mutas are usually the first hand encounters in TvZ. Zerg is the aggressor for most of the part until Terran gets Science Vessel.
|
Alot of idiocy in this thread. Races cannot be identical (and indeed would be boring if they were). T and P can be more offensive than Z early on, but this is matched by Z generally being able to macro up easier.
This is actually where the problem with 5 rax reaper comes in - that terran can very safely expand whilst being aggressive, meaning even near-perfect defense often still leads to an economic advantage.
The races play differently - if you want to play aggressive, you might want to swap. Because Z will never be able to T1 harrass like you wish.
|
wait... wait... wait a minute...
so being able to force terran to wall in with all his units and keep him in his base so you can do whatever you want all over the map just because you have 6 zerglings is not considered as being aggressive?
|
I think the problem is that zerg units are slow as fuck off-creep. I get frustrated seeing hydras run across the map like a bunch of retards.
In BW all zerg-units were significantly faster than their counterparts which allowed for nice harras and surrounds.
Now if you want to surround, it's impossible. That's partly the fault of the maps too but zergspeed is lame nowadays.
|
On September 09 2010 17:22 David Dark wrote:
wait... wait... wait a minute...
so being able to force terran to wall in with all his units and keep him in his base so you can do whatever you want all over the map just because you have 6 zerglings is not considered as being aggressive?
Aggressive and Containment are two very different things. Aggressive is putting pressure on your opponent into holding off an attack. Containment is preventing your opponent from breaking out of their base. And let's be honest.. 6 Ling containment is hardly anything.
|
On September 09 2010 17:22 David Dark wrote:
wait... wait... wait a minute...
so being able to force terran to wall in with all his units and keep him in his base so you can do whatever you want all over the map just because you have 6 zerglings is not considered as being aggressive?
priceless.....
|
what? zerg early agression and control of game flow non existant? I don't believe this is correct. you should have watched the Dimaga Kiwikaki showmatch today. Scrap Station, specifically, where dimaga absolutely controlled the game with incredible nydus play.
|
On September 09 2010 17:33 whiteguycash wrote:
what? zerg early agression and control of game flow non existant? I don't believe this is correct. you should have watched the Dimaga Kiwikaki showmatch today. Scrap Station, specifically, where dimaga absolutely controlled the game with incredible nydus play.
That's awesome, but nydus is hardly early agression.
|
On September 09 2010 09:49 RavenNevermore wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it. Very constructive. I do play the game, and I adapt to what I'm given, however I think the lack of ability to be agressive early is really hurting the zerg as a race.
Well maybe you might want to try to be VERY DEFENSIVE instead of trying the impossible? Protoss cant really do much either until they have built several Gateways and Terrans need their addons to really be aggressive on all their production buildings as well. The thing that hurts Zerg is the weakness of Zerglings - Zealots kill them easier than in BW and both Reapers and Hellions deal extra damage - and the need to constantly replace the lost units (plus some more, since there will be more aggressors coming). This is compensated by the Queens spawn larvae ability and thus an easier time to get larvae ... or is it really? Sure you can get lots of Zerglings, but if they die en masse isnt that wasted resources?
Instead of getting a horde of Zerglings you might want to try Spine Crawlers and Queens as defensive units against the initial harrassment. Sure you cant chase the opponents to their base, but we are already agreeing that there is no real point to it due to the wall ins. One of the real weaknesses of Zerglings is the fact that they are MELEE units and thus have a severe disadvantage against the two super mobile Terran harrassment units. A Spine Crawler has range 7 and can cover a big area with its ranged attack, so to me it seems the intelligent alternative to defending your base. The only thing you really need is to protect your workers until you have the tech you want to go out and be aggressive. To achieve this goal you can even skip the expansion, Zergling speed or maybe even delay the first Queen if you need to get to lair super fast. This is the critical thing IMO, because lair tech allows your Overlords to dump creep wherever you need it, Creep Tumors are slow and usually are targeted by early aggression. Being able to cover ramps and cliffs with Spine Crawlers is essential. The key point is not to build too few Spine Crawlers ...
A mineral saved is a mineral mined.
Dont waste minerals on super weak Zerglings which you will have to reproduce constantly to keep up with the pressure, that wastes the minerals AND the larvae. With "more enduring defenses" you can devote more of your larvae to becoming Drones for a better economy. You could even delay lair tech and build a second Hatchery in your main first at a critical position to place Spine Crawlers. This way you ....
- can skip gas (= wayy more minerals)
- do not need as much larvae for defense, so you might even skip a Spawn Larvae cycle to save mana (this might end up in a TON of creep tumors once the initial harrassment stops, so it will help you anyways)
- get more Queens (= more healing for your Spine Crawlers and Queens) out and
- will saturate your future expansions MUCH faster when you finally do expand due to an excess of larvae.
As a Protoss counterversion to this I would suggest watching Day9 daily 175, where Adel beat Huk by NOT getting the second Gas. Just try sticking with "heavy hitter units" until you really need the Gas.
|
On September 09 2010 12:31 Adeny wrote:
Wait since when was zerg ever aggressive? Zerg was definately the most passive in brood war.
As a disclaimer I'm not counting old style brood war, because while they may not have been playing wrongly, there's probably a reason they stopped using those builds.
ZvZ: Well, let's not mention this abomination of a match up. We're comparing races anyways.
ZvT: Sunken and drone while giving away map control, use mutas to buy time for lurkers, then use lurkers to stall and buy more time for defilers. Then use defilers to buy more time for ultralisks then attack.
ZvP: 5 hatcheries before your first attack unit (scourge hardly count).
It's just the way zerg works because of larvae and how you can't make drones and attack units at the same time to the extent other races can. If you can catch a break and don't have to defend for a period of time, the less risky option will be droning, given that you have the experience to know how much to drone. So while the harassing shennanigans might look cute, the goal of them is just more time.
You've obviously never seen Kwanro play or a good third of Jaedong's games.
|
As a Z player, I think wall-in by P and T players is fine. Without wall-ins, thanks to spawn larvae mechanics, Z would be able to overrun T and P easily with a simple speedling-all-in build. The problem with wall-in is it denies scouting. Give Z some early-game scouting abilities, and it will be fine imo.
|
On September 09 2010 14:26 Mortician wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 09:49 RavenNevermore wrote:On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it. Very constructive. I do play the game, and I adapt to what I'm given, however I think the lack of ability to be agressive early is really hurting the zerg as a race. Zergs can't be agressive in BW as well untill the opponent moves out, your point being?
You obviously haven't seen Kwanro play or some of Jaedong's games either.
|
i kind of disagree...
My problem is that when i play kind of a DIMAGA style (as could be seen vs kiwikaki yesterday) aka 1 base 2 base innovative rushes with banelings / burrowed roaches / muta rushes and baneling breaches i win a lot of games.
I was a 1000 diamond zerg player, always looking for a flaw in the opponents strategy and exploiting it to the fullest. Then i changed my mind and said to myself that i would never learn this game with this "cheesy" kind of play and started to go idra style with solid macro every game, no cheese at all.
i dropped 250 points in the ladder and this has many different reasons:
1. Enemies stay passive, take 1 expo after another while guarding with their big ball of units, sometimes they move out to fake an attack to force me to make units.
2. Once im on 3 bases im kind of forced to tech to t3 to make broodlords / ultras to be able to compensate with the AOE that rapes my units (storm, tanks, collosi).
3. Especially P has easy mode map control and im forced to hide expoes which are eventually scouted and sniped. Also the guy with the mapcontrol decides when and where the battles take place, which is 99% small chokes where my units cannot surround.
4. Ultras are kind of bad and take forever to make. When my enemy sees the ultra go down (which he can scout so easily) he will timing attack me knowing im probably broke and havent got lots of units because i just q'ed 5-6 ultras. The Ultras can be disabled by sending units to block it (just like u would do in DoTa by walking in front of creeps with the hero so they cant go by and will go left and right instead) The Ultra cannot really attack and is raped by tons of MMM dps.
this post makes me so sad, i <3 zerg.
|
On September 09 2010 17:58 AT_Tack wrote:
4. Ultras are kind of bad and take forever to make. When my enemy sees the ultra go down (which he can scout so easily) he will timing attack me knowing im probably broke and havent got lots of units because i just q'ed 5-6 ultras. The Ultras can be disabled by sending units to block it (just like u would do in DoTa by walking in front of creeps with the hero so they cant go by and will go left and right instead) The Ultra cannot really attack and is raped by tons of MMM dps.
.
hahahah. impressive insight man.
|
On September 09 2010 17:38 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 09:49 RavenNevermore wrote:On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it. Very constructive. I do play the game, and I adapt to what I'm given, however I think the lack of ability to be agressive early is really hurting the zerg as a race. Well maybe you might want to try to be VERY DEFENSIVE instead of trying the impossible? Protoss cant really do much either until they have built several Gateways and Terrans need their addons to really be aggressive on all their production buildings as well. The thing that hurts Zerg is the weakness of Zerglings - Zealots kill them easier than in BW and both Reapers and Hellions deal extra damage - and the need to constantly replace the lost units (plus some more, since there will be more aggressors coming). This is compensated by the Queens spawn larvae ability and thus an easier time to get larvae ... or is it really? Sure you can get lots of Zerglings, but if they die en masse isnt that wasted resources? Instead of getting a horde of Zerglings you might want to try Spine Crawlers and Queens as defensive units against the initial harrassment. Sure you cant chase the opponents to their base, but we are already agreeing that there is no real point to it due to the wall ins. One of the real weaknesses of Zerglings is the fact that they are MELEE units and thus have a severe disadvantage against the two super mobile Terran harrassment units. A Spine Crawler has range 7 and can cover a big area with its ranged attack, so to me it seems the intelligent alternative to defending your base. The only thing you really need is to protect your workers until you have the tech you want to go out and be aggressive. To achieve this goal you can even skip the expansion, Zergling speed or maybe even delay the first Queen if you need to get to lair super fast. This is the critical thing IMO, because lair tech allows your Overlords to dump creep wherever you need it, Creep Tumors are slow and usually are targeted by early aggression. Being able to cover ramps and cliffs with Spine Crawlers is essential. The key point is not to build too few Spine Crawlers ... A mineral saved is a mineral mined. Dont waste minerals on super weak Zerglings which you will have to reproduce constantly to keep up with the pressure, that wastes the minerals AND the larvae. With "more enduring defenses" you can devote more of your larvae to becoming Drones for a better economy. You could even delay lair tech and build a second Hatchery in your main first at a critical position to place Spine Crawlers. This way you .... - can skip gas (= wayy more minerals) - do not need as much larvae for defense, so you might even skip a Spawn Larvae cycle to save mana (this might end up in a TON of creep tumors once the initial harrassment stops, so it will help you anyways) - get more Queens (= more healing for your Spine Crawlers and Queens) out and - will saturate your future expansions MUCH faster when you finally do expand due to an excess of larvae. As a Protoss counterversion to this I would suggest watching Day9 daily 175, where Adel beat Huk by NOT getting the second Gas. Just try sticking with "heavy hitter units" until you really need the Gas.
Interesting ideas, but I doubt it would work. Without lings, the T or P would just get a fast expo and now you as a zerg would be forced to double-expand to keep up, which is going to be really hard if you spent the early game building spine crawlers and queens. Zerg simply isn't a turtling race, it's an aggressive race without good early aggression.
|
On September 09 2010 17:38 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 09:49 RavenNevermore wrote:On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it. Very constructive. I do play the game, and I adapt to what I'm given, however I think the lack of ability to be agressive early is really hurting the zerg as a race. Well maybe you might want to try to be VERY DEFENSIVE instead of trying the impossible? Protoss cant really do much either until they have built several Gateways and Terrans need their addons to really be aggressive on all their production buildings as well. The thing that hurts Zerg is the weakness of Zerglings - Zealots kill them easier than in BW and both Reapers and Hellions deal extra damage - and the need to constantly replace the lost units (plus some more, since there will be more aggressors coming). This is compensated by the Queens spawn larvae ability and thus an easier time to get larvae ... or is it really? Sure you can get lots of Zerglings, but if they die en masse isnt that wasted resources? Instead of getting a horde of Zerglings you might want to try Spine Crawlers and Queens as defensive units against the initial harrassment. Sure you cant chase the opponents to their base, but we are already agreeing that there is no real point to it due to the wall ins. One of the real weaknesses of Zerglings is the fact that they are MELEE units and thus have a severe disadvantage against the two super mobile Terran harrassment units. A Spine Crawler has range 7 and can cover a big area with its ranged attack, so to me it seems the intelligent alternative to defending your base. The only thing you really need is to protect your workers until you have the tech you want to go out and be aggressive. To achieve this goal you can even skip the expansion, Zergling speed or maybe even delay the first Queen if you need to get to lair super fast. This is the critical thing IMO, because lair tech allows your Overlords to dump creep wherever you need it, Creep Tumors are slow and usually are targeted by early aggression. Being able to cover ramps and cliffs with Spine Crawlers is essential. The key point is not to build too few Spine Crawlers ... A mineral saved is a mineral mined. Dont waste minerals on super weak Zerglings which you will have to reproduce constantly to keep up with the pressure, that wastes the minerals AND the larvae. With "more enduring defenses" you can devote more of your larvae to becoming Drones for a better economy. You could even delay lair tech and build a second Hatchery in your main first at a critical position to place Spine Crawlers. This way you .... - can skip gas (= wayy more minerals) - do not need as much larvae for defense, so you might even skip a Spawn Larvae cycle to save mana (this might end up in a TON of creep tumors once the initial harrassment stops, so it will help you anyways) - get more Queens (= more healing for your Spine Crawlers and Queens) out and - will saturate your future expansions MUCH faster when you finally do expand due to an excess of larvae. As a Protoss counterversion to this I would suggest watching Day9 daily 175, where Adel beat Huk by NOT getting the second Gas. Just try sticking with "heavy hitter units" until you really need the Gas.
first.
protoss can have 5 zealots at your base by 5 minutes. thats with only 2 gates. not several like you suggest protoss need.
Terran can have a reaper at your base in about 3-4 minutes and another 2 a minute later using only 1 barracks. sure they need their addon, but it only takes 25 seconds to build one.
second.
queens and spines CURRENTLY (subject to change after patch) cannot defend against reapers.
1 spine and 1 queen will die to 10 reapers without kill any reapers
2 spine and 1 queen will kill maybe 1-2 of those reapers
3 spine and 1 queen will kill half of those reapers.
however having 3 spines at your expo and main is not viable. thats 150 minerals each spine. 50 seconds each spine. in fact if a T player see's you investing too much into spines, he take the economic lead remarkably easier. the reason zerglings are used instead of spines, is because it forces the reapers to retreat, attempting to buy much needed time to tech to mutas to thwart the reapers.
third
skipping a queen and zergling speed and hard teching to lair without an expansion like you suggest against reapers, will lose you the game almost all the time. so during the time you are teching to lair, means no queen during that time. meaning limited larva because no larva injection. and well you'll just get rolled on. and you say dont build too few spines. it takes 3+ to deter a pack of 10 reapers without a queen or the speed lings support your suggesting we should skip. thats 450 minerals and 3 larva. with the limited income from only one base like you suggest we should do this is not viable. sure you will deter the reapers for maybe 30 seconds at most, during which the terran player will have his expo up and twice the income of you. meaning you'll lose to any mid game push he makes.
fourth
skipping lair and building a second hatch in main.... thats 300 minerals and takes nearly 2 minutes to build. and skipping gas means even later lair, meaning any sort of banshee harass with cloak. will end the game then and there. so with your second hatch idea thats 800 minerals im wasting on defense (1 hatch 3 spines 4 drones) that could be 32 lings, which is a better way to defend against reapers then your suggestions.
theres nothing wrong with your ideas, im just pointing out that they are not viable.
|
i have to admit i skiped most of the thread so my reply is directed at the OP:
i agree that walling in limits zergs early agression hard.
but the sad thing is that when toss or terran dont wallin - they lose!
every game i scout an nonwalled T or P base ill just mass zerglings once queen larva kick in. when speed is done there is aboslutly nothing they can do. just run into their base and destroy their mineral line.
in my opinion the wallin itself isnt the problem but the lack of range t1 is.
the roach itself is quite a good unit but the extrem slow movementspeed off creep hurts a lot. at the time you have enough roaches at the enemys wall to call it aggression your opponent will be able to have either stalker or marauder -.-
still i think zerg could be a bit more aggressive early on if the roach would be used more.
i played a lot of interesting games the last days where i focused on mostly speedlings with just a handfull of roaches(3-4) and early aggression.
it works quite well but you walk a thin line between early aggression/allin because you obvious have to cut ecco and if you dont get the balance right between sling/roach/drones you end up behind either in army or eco.
overall i think its too early to judge if zerg early aggression is really limited or if we just didnt play enough to find the right timings/unitcomps
Zira
|
On September 09 2010 11:22 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 11:14 Alexstrasas wrote:n Starcraft 2, any player who doesn't wall in versus a Zerg is throwing away a very major advantage. This allows the enemy player to:
-Dictate the pace of the game
-Harass and Macro with near impunity
-Speed Tech to Tier 3
-Deny Scouting easily This is just more whine but with a good looking structure and some screenshots. What happens on blistering sands if a terran isnt watching the backdoor rocks and the zerg breaks them and enters the base? This is what would happen every game if you were not able to wall off. You obviously have no ideia what you are talking about, playing vs a zerg without a wall doesnt work. Also while we are walling off zergs are building a free expansion so get a grip and stop crying. Also these QQ about terran harass are rediclous. You need to do serious damage to the zerg on the first 10 minutes otherwise there is going to be fucken mutas everywere. Its complelty mind boggling how zergs can whine yet have this rediclous unit that will basicly make you stay inside your own base or risk losing it, while they take all available expos on the map. The big difference between early harass (reaper/helion) and mid game harass with muta is that with the free expo you just need to survive for 10 minute and your good, while with muta harass your fucked because you need to survive AND get a 3rd expand wich you cant. And seriously the reaper thing, its soo last month, most high level players are fending it off on a regular basis, so y´all should dry the tears and try to catch up. bigtime-FAIL. u like bronze or what? Nothing u wrote makes sense...
You are like 12 years old? Yeah man only bronze make mutas. The fuck is wrong with you? Stay away from the souce
|
On September 09 2010 09:53 BadWithNames wrote:
Wall not common in broodwar? What are you smoking? People put walls everywhere, pylon walls, forge pylong walls, depot rax walls, factory rax walls, gateway zealot walls. Pro brood war has more walls than china.
a 5 or range unit to threaten walls....why don't you just park some lings outside the wall and power drones and tech while you wait for him to come out, you know, like good zergs do.
While having no clue what he's doing and then being surprised when he pushes with <insert 1 of 1028 viable T pushes>. Zergs can NOT put on early aggression without going all in, no matter what you say you can't deny this is 'imbalanced', and there should be changed something in the t1/t2 techtree.
|
On September 09 2010 10:11 berzerger wrote:
%100 agreed to OP.
zerg early aggresion is a joke compared to other races. (this comes from watching pro-games not my level of play)
are you kidding me?
the mere fact that zerg early aggression can be game-deciding is the reason for T/P-walling-in; walling in always leads to a slightly more crippled economy and makes the base harder to defend against air-harass; but the danger of a zerg-run-by to the mineral-line is just too big; if you give zergs t1 range-units then there's basicly nothing that prevents them from sniping off buildings that create the wall-in; so what do you suggest then? every T/P can either let zerglings run wild in his base or accept the fact that he is supposed to lose some buildings that are being sniped?
since zerg started to realize how strong roaches are vs zealots I've hardly seen any competent zerg lose to early 2-gate-zealot-pressure....and with ZvT reapers are a MUCH bigger problem that basicly screws up any form of "normal" play
do zerg-players really believe that we all "love" to wall in? I would gladly stop walling in if my opponent promises that he will never run zerglings into my probes, lol
|
On September 09 2010 23:17 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 10:11 berzerger wrote:
%100 agreed to OP.
zerg early aggresion is a joke compared to other races. (this comes from watching pro-games not my level of play) are you kidding me? the mere fact that zerg early aggression can be game-deciding is the reason for T/P-walling-in; walling in always leads to a slightly more crippled economy and makes the base harder to defend against air-harass; but the danger of a zerg-run-by to the mineral-line is just too big; if you give zergs t1 range-units then there's basicly nothing that prevents them from sniping off buildings that create the wall-in; so what do you suggest then? every T/P can either let zerglings run wild in his base or accept the fact that he is supposed to lose some buildings that are being sniped? since zerg started to realize how strong roaches are vs zealots I've hardly seen any competent zerg lose to early 2-gate-zealot-pressure....and with ZvT reapers are a MUCH bigger problem that basicly screws up any form of "normal" play do zerg-players really believe that we all "love" to wall in? I would gladly stop walling in if my opponent promises that he will never run zerglings into my probes, lol
You never loses to 2gate pressure alone, it just fucks your economy so bad while protoss can transition fine after it.
|
Right now early Zerg aggression seems to be nonexistent. Why? The only form of early harrassment is to 6-pool and rush the opponent while he is still building his wall or before the Tech Lab is finished. That would delay Reapers and could actually keep Zealots in the Protoss base for some time. Just build 6 Zerglings (maybe 4 would suffice?) and then get all Drones. That way the Terran / Protoss would be on the defensive and spending time to chase after the Zerglings instead of them harrassing the Zerg. No idea if the timing of this would work on most maps, but it seems to be the only way to harrass early. Everything else (burrowed Roaches, Mutalisks, Baneling drops, ...) needs quite a lot of tech.
/wtb sixpool in GSL
|
We know now that against most competant players, the earliest form of agression is mutalisk harass.
Except baneling bust is a viable strategy from bronze to pro tournaments. It is an all in, and it is risky, but its far from unviable.
|
On September 09 2010 10:10 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 10:07 Subversion wrote:
i agree that zergs are a little more passive sometimes, but i dont think we can get rid of the wall-in...
i think there are plenty of aggressive ways for zerg to still be aggressive Let me know what those are when you have thought about it. I can't think of anything truly viable pre-lair besides 5RR which is still a gimmick and by viable I mean something that doesn't leave you at an insurmountable disadvantage if it fails...early aggression =/= all in
I''ve been working on something, i know it's technically not pre lair, but it uses roaches, and rushes a lair to get creep spread from ovvies against protoss, so far it wrecks 2 gate like no other, wrecks any tech rush (robo, stargate, templar tech) but 4 gate it's kind of a failing technique. it's alot less gimmicky than the 5RR because it gets an expo out and techs, but my timings are still off and it's still being optimized.
|
On September 10 2010 00:37 Half wrote:Show nested quote +We know now that against most competant players, the earliest form of agression is mutalisk harass. Except baneling bust is a viable strategy from bronze to pro tournaments. It is an all in, and it is risky, but its far from unviable.
if you use baneling busts as a counter attack strategy they cease to be all ins and continue to be just as effective.
|
On September 09 2010 09:42 Two_DoWn wrote:
In broodwar wallins were fairly common in tvz, and if you didnt know how to wall in as a protoss in pvz, you were going to lose. So i dont think that the ability to stop ling runbys is what is hurting tier 1 zerg. Besides, the roach is a tier 1.5 unit just like the hydra was in broodwar, and is also ranged.
edit: the more i think about it, the more that im starting to believe that tier 1 zerg isnt hurting nearly as badly as you seem to believe it is.
does the roach have the same range as the hydra had in brood war? does it have a range upgrade? is it AA? can it upgrade speed in T1?
|
Im Zerg.
I dont think the Wallin is the problem, its the units behind and in front of the wall.
Protoss Wallin isnt nearly that much of a problem, as it is with Terrans Walls. Especially in the beginning Protoss Walls with melee units, if u want to pressure early its okay to do with roaches.
I agree that pressuring a Terran early without ALLIN Baneling bust is nearly impossible.
The Problem is the that we only have the shortrange, which prevents a good bust and even if u bust u can only send lings effectivly, because Roaches reinforcments are to slow at that time.
The solution would be, as it would be for many problems Zerg has, to switch Hydra and Roach in techposition and strength
|
On September 09 2010 17:22 David Dark wrote:
wait... wait... wait a minute...
so being able to force terran to wall in with all his units and keep him in his base so you can do whatever you want all over the map just because you have 6 zerglings is not considered as being aggressive?
no it is not.
the reason for this is T needs no expansion at all to kill a 3 baseing Zerg.
|
If you give zerg a ranged unit to assault the wall from a distance, the Terran has to come out to fend of the aggression, correct?
If the marines move out, speedlings will rape them, then the scv's and then your mother. In BW you had the Firebat to deal with zerglings. Hellions just don't come fast enough. If you get roaches (ranged) I have the counter ready for your zerglings and can move out. If you bring a ranged unit to T1, you have to give T something that doesn't get roflstomped by zerglings early on in the open, and the game isn't balanced already.
|
On September 10 2010 01:01 Helmet EU wrote:
If you give zerg a ranged unit to assault the wall from a distance, the Terran has to come out to fend of the aggression, correct?
If the marines move out, speedlings will rape them, then the scv's and then your mother. In BW you had the Firebat to deal with zerglings. Hellions just don't come fast enough. If you get roaches (ranged) I have the counter ready for your zerglings and can move out. If you bring a ranged unit to T1, you have to give T something that doesn't get roflstomped by zerglings early on in the open, and the game isn't balanced already.
I think you're forgetting about those guys on jetpacks that stomp lings and roaches off creep and zerg buildings. Forgot what they were called, though...
|
Instead of a cliffjumping unit for zerg (which obviously won't happen unit HotS perhaps), how about burrowed roaches being able to claw their way through cliffs. Or if that is overpowered, just under buildings. It would still take lairtech with at least two upgrades (burrow + tunneling claws)... definitely not OPed (easily countered by a turret near the wall).
|
1) Zerg agression early game is limited.
2) It is not the problem that there is no 5-range unit in t1 for zerg. In tvz the terran will just bunker behind the wall and all ranged unit threat is nulified. In pvz protoss has forcefield threat so you cant bust his ramp so easily even with ranged units. The problem is that zergs cannot wall in themselves which leads early game agression very much one sided.
|
On September 09 2010 10:20 TyrantPotato wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 10:13 tok wrote:
I recently switched back to zerg after playing terran/random during launch, and zerg in beta. I got knocked down from plat to gold after only 1 day of ladder only winning 4/14 games. The sad thing is the opponent can build 1 unit the entire game and still win, and theres no way to scout the enemies base once they get their first unit out. thats more of an example of your lack of skill with the zerg race rather then an example of how underpowered zerg is. despite zerg having its problems, losing to an army made of only 1 type of unit, means you obvoiusly dont understand how to combat simple army compositions with the zerg units.
Not necessarily. If he's losing to ridiculous compositions, I'd assume that his macro (and not his own correct composition) is at fault. Also, scouting is part of Zerg macro decisions (do I make drones now?), although that's generally untrue for P and T (spam workers).
Furthermore, if he spent the beta playing Zerg, it's not plausible that he doesn't understand which unit to use in which situation (assuming that his "lack of skill" with the Zerg race, as you put it, was due to misunderstanding how to combat simple army compositions). If he lacked the skill to play Zerg at the platinum level, although he does possess the skill to play Terran at that level (and he's claimed he's familiar with the mechanics of both races), then I think this DOES say something about how Zerg plays in SC2.
I'm not claiming they're underpowered (or balanced, for that matter, because I'm just a diamond player -- what do I know?). I'm just saying that too many people dismiss anecdotal evidence as worthless when the main issue with Zerg is that it's been largely unpopular since release -- and "unpopularity" is about as subjective and nebulous as an anecdote.
|
am I the only one that finds marine balls incredibly difficult to deal with?
I had a game where he did a marine tank push, and I had ling/bling/muta. He moved right up to my base, and I surrouned from 3 sides, killing about half of his marines with blings (tank shots really decimated my bling numbers) and sniped all his tanks with my mutas. problem was, those 15ish marines left over were unkillable. I kept spamming lings at him, but they just evaporated. as he was in my base I really didn't have the time to mass up more lings in 2 larvae cycles, same thing with making banelings.
I fell in SC1 nearly equal numbers if zerglings were much better vs marines. now these left over marines can cause real problems
|
On September 10 2010 03:09 mathemagician1986 wrote:
am I the only one that finds marine balls incredibly difficult to deal with?
I had a game where he did a marine tank push, and I had ling/bling/muta. He moved right up to my base, and I surrouned from 3 sides, killing about half of his marines with blings (tank shots really decimated my bling numbers) and sniped all his tanks with my mutas. problem was, those 15ish marines left over were unkillable. I kept spamming lings at him, but they just evaporated. as he was in my base I really didn't have the time to mass up more lings in 2 larvae cycles, same thing with making banelings.
I fell in SC1 nearly equal numbers if zerglings were much better vs marines. now these left over marines can cause real problems
When they go marines/tank, u really should try to baneling carpet bomb them istead of the normal ground way.
|
On September 10 2010 03:11 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 03:09 mathemagician1986 wrote:
am I the only one that finds marine balls incredibly difficult to deal with?
I had a game where he did a marine tank push, and I had ling/bling/muta. He moved right up to my base, and I surrouned from 3 sides, killing about half of his marines with blings (tank shots really decimated my bling numbers) and sniped all his tanks with my mutas. problem was, those 15ish marines left over were unkillable. I kept spamming lings at him, but they just evaporated. as he was in my base I really didn't have the time to mass up more lings in 2 larvae cycles, same thing with making banelings.
I fell in SC1 nearly equal numbers if zerglings were much better vs marines. now these left over marines can cause real problems When they go marines/tank, u really should try to baneling carpet bomb them istead of the normal ground way.
good idea, but I don't really like spending all that gas on OL drop/speed so early. I'll have to try it though!
|
On September 09 2010 17:22 David Dark wrote:
wait... wait... wait a minute...
so being able to force terran to wall in with all his units and keep him in his base so you can do whatever you want all over the map just because you have 6 zerglings is not considered as being aggressive?
and what do you do with your 6 zerglings? secure an expansion? What are you going to do when 8 reapers knock on your door? Jesus some people have serious confusion between the definition of "having 6 zerglings" and "map control".
|
Terran really is the beloved race, Protoss are pretty cool as they are even with less gimmicks than Terran. The real problem is that if you buff Zerg or move things around in the tech tree they are just going to be stupidly OP in the late game as their macro is the strongest (also the most difficult to use) of the three races.
What I would like to see is the Spawn larvae ability easier to use (just give it a goddamn autocast or something) but not as powerful so the late game doesn't swing too far in in favor of Zerg. And in addition to that make some changes in the Zerg unit lineup, Roaches were nerfed into the ground and the 2 supply change made them almost not worth using them if it wasn't for them being required to hold off certain enemy harass. Perhaps a slight buff in stats to make them worth the 2 supply cost would be nice. A very slight increase in Zergling effectiveness would be nice, the Adrenal Glands upgrade is a total joke (+1 attack upgrade gives more dps increase at half the cost and no Hive tech requirement).
A lot of the problems I have personally is that it's difficult to hold off early aggression while at the same time being able to afford to tech so that you can hold off plays like DT/Banshee/Void Ray. If early aggression is effective (which without good micro, awareness and scouting it probably will be) you either lose outright or are crippled so hard that you have no hope of holding off whatever annoying ass thing he will do to you next.
Starcraft wasn't perfect when it was released and I didn't expect Starcraft 2 to be either. I feel now just as I did during the beta, they should have held off the release to balance the game more. The Activision Overlords may have had a hand in that decision.
|
Hold on, what the hell. This whole thread is such a lie.
It's not a zerg only problem. Nobody can break walls with t1. None of the races can do crap against a proper wall off.
1. Protoss/Terran armies can still be split by forcefield
2. Marauders/tanks/bunkers kill any race trying to break the wall
= Death if you attack his wall
|
On September 09 2010 10:25 kickinhead wrote:
I blame 4 Factors for Zerg being the "passive" or "reactive" Race in SC2, at least earlier on in the game.
Creep Mechanic/Units too slow off-creep
Well, pretty self-explanatory I guess: Roaches, Hydras etc. are just too slow off-creep, which makes the creep-mechanic more of a defensive ability, at least earlier in the game.
Wall-in's/Force-Fields
Zerg just is not able to take advantage of one of their few fast Units, the Speedling, because runby's, backstabs etc. are a thing of the past thanks to IMBA force-fields on the ramp or wall-in's. Because of that, early pressure by the other races often cannot be punished, which effectively turns attacks that should be all-in's (and are as powerful as all-in's), into pretty solid BO's (4 warpgate-push is the best example IMHO), because Zerg can't counterattack nor backstab the opponent when his army moves out.
Bad T1/T1.5 ranged Units
With roaches being the only ranged T1-Unit, that is extremely slow off-creep and only has 3 range, you simply can't punish the opponent for walling in. You should be able to attack a wall-in if you choose to go for an aggressive strategy, like Hydras could in SC:BW. This way the wall-in would hinder the opponents own Units from attacking down the ramp and would therefore at least have 1 disadvantage. Against all the other races, I just would not recommend walling in, cuz as soon as stuff like Marauders, Stalkers, immortals etc. have vision up the cliff, your wall-in get's torn down. This especially makes counterattacks abolutely bad. Even at T2 with the Hydra, the slow movement-speed of 'em will make a counterattack up the ramp futile.
Zerglings being too weak
With Zerglings doing very low DPS compared to other T1/T1.5-Units, having no range, no Armor, very few health etc, Zerg is just always on the back-foot early on. The other Races have very strong Units and different builds early on against which Zerglings almost always loose (forward 2-gate Zealots, Reapers, Hellions). Because of that, you pretty much have to rely on the "defenders-advantage" (faster reinforcement, faster on creep, having queens to help out or even the drones etc.) to have any chance of surviving the early-game. Zerglings can't even backstab anymore to force the opponent to retreat when attacking early, as described above. If that's not enough: Zerglings are just sooo bad at destroying destructable rocks, so even on Maps like Blistering/Kulas, Counterattacking/Backstabbing with Zerglings is extremely hard to do.
I agree with everything this man said. Heed the wisdom.
|
On September 10 2010 03:45 ToxNub wrote:
Hold on, what the hell. This whole thread is such a lie.
It's not a zerg only problem. Nobody can break walls with t1. None of the races can do crap against a proper wall off.
1. Protoss/Terran armies can still be split by forcefield
2. Marauders/tanks/bunkers kill any race trying to break the wall
= Death if you attack his wall
I'm pretty sure the idea of the thread is that the zerg can't wall off, or forcefield, or park bunkers, which makes them unable to turtle in the same regard - but that they're also not able to do any damage early-game and are forced to be on the defensive until the mid-game or later.
|
I am curious, if the creep mechanic never existed. Would you guys still complain about the speed of Zerg?
|
On September 10 2010 04:00 ThePowerHour wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 03:45 ToxNub wrote:
Hold on, what the hell. This whole thread is such a lie.
It's not a zerg only problem. Nobody can break walls with t1. None of the races can do crap against a proper wall off.
1. Protoss/Terran armies can still be split by forcefield
2. Marauders/tanks/bunkers kill any race trying to break the wall
= Death if you attack his wall
I'm pretty sure the idea of the thread is that the zerg can't wall off, or forcefield, or park bunkers, which makes them unable to turtle in the same regard - but that they're also not able to do any damage early-game and are forced to be on the defensive until the mid-game or later.
No, I'm pretty sure he was talking about being able to be aggressive against wall offs. That's why he mentioned stalkers and marauders. My point is that nobody can be very aggressive against wall offs, not even with those units.
As for the argument that zerg doesn't have the same option, that's not really true. Spine crawlers make awesome static d if he wants to turtle/tech/drone. Not to mention that these can all be rearranged later on as he sees fit. It's pretty common to see a FE + 3-4 spines.
|
If you can't break it, then you don't need to. The game is meant balanced at the highest level of play, and it should stay that way. The pros have better understanding of what to do when the opponent walls off, have better sense of scouting, predicting using the slightest clues, and how to react and predict timing attacks, then how to properly counter them.
The ability to break a wall and flood units through is simply an advantage, or an edge to exploit, but it is not a disadvantage.
Now the question is how do the lesser skilled players should react to unbreakable walls? There are many answers, the most common one would be to build a better macro, and demolish the eventual timing attack. Others will tell you to use gimmicks like fast mutas, nydus worm, drops, etc. But imo, what it really comes down is to practice, experiment, and find one solution that you feel comfortable doing, and be good at it. Then you can move on and try other things.
I'm only a 600-700 diamond zerg (which is somewhat relevant since we're talking about lower level plays in this thread) and I have a specific BO for both Terran and Protoss if I find them walling off.
ZvP, I almost always 5 roach rush expand. It wins me the game if opponent isn't prepared, and if I can't flood units in, I simply back off and go on with droning, and wait for the protoss aggression. as soon as they leave their base and kill my ling that i've promptly placed near nat, or mid map, I flood in my speedlings, forcing my opponent (most of the time) to pull back and defend their probes. This buys me time to macro up units to properly deal with the push
In ZvT, research burrow and place baneling mines near the ramp/nat. add an unburrowed ling near by, for warning, and if performed well, you'll demolish their push, and Terran will retreat back and turtle more. I do some variations of this (sometimes just plain old baneling bust if situation is looking favorable), but this is the basic idea.
Zerg aggression isn't limited breaking walls and flood units in. If you can't pressure by breaking walls, try another form aggression, such as wait and counter attack.
What I believe zerg is lacking is the ability to properly scout in tier1 (which consist of most my losses), but that's another topic to discuss about.
|
On September 09 2010 17:22 David Dark wrote:
wait... wait... wait a minute...
so being able to force terran to wall in with all his units and keep him in his base so you can do whatever you want all over the map just because you have 6 zerglings is not considered as being aggressive?
No. It's not. Because it doesn't hurt the Terran in any way to do this.
He doesn't lose map control, because Reapers/Banshees can easily go wherever they want. If the Terran wants to move onto the map and harass, they can. And there's not much the Zerg can do about it.
On September 09 2010 17:38 Rabiator wrote:
Well maybe you might want to try to be VERY DEFENSIVE instead of trying the impossible?
Fine: Give Zerg the tools necessary to play defensively. They don't have that right now. They have expensive defensive buildings. And their enemies have building-wreckers like Reapers that can slaughter them. They have a few melee units, which suck at defense.
If you're going to have a race be defensive, you have to give them stuff to be defensive with.
On September 10 2010 02:47 Cheerio wrote:
1) Zerg agression early game is limited.
2) It is not the problem that there is no 5-range unit in t1 for zerg. In tvz the terran will just bunker behind the wall and all ranged unit threat is nulified. In pvz protoss has forcefield threat so you cant bust his ramp so easily even with ranged units. The problem is that zergs cannot wall in themselves which leads early game agression very much one sided.
Zergs can wall themselves in. Just use a Hatchery+Spine Crawler.
No, the problem is that wall-in doesn't matter. Because Reapers don't care about walls.
|
burrow needs to be buffed. to be able to go under buildings that can lift off and made to be available at T1. they nerfed burrow down to a "cloak" except burrowed units cannot attack and are very much at risk of counter attack if detected. it would really slow down these powerful "openers" that are available because the terran would have to worry about what they cant see, and with the 5rax or even 3rax build your only detection is a scan which you would rather be using for mules.
|
^ Burrow needs to be USED... I often let games vs. zerg go into mid game on purpose, and I rarely see diversity in a zerg army(usually just piles of roaches or piles of hydras). Zerg need to remember that rushing to utlralisk or brood lords is not an auto win and that having a balanced army with a few casters can be quite powerful. All of this is quite expected though as zerg do not seem to make it to mid game very often.... and when they do I am sure they have to manually click the fungal growth spell on the screen with the cursor. 1a click won't cut if for the race anymore. Some day they will get there.
|
On September 10 2010 06:44 Rabbet wrote:
^ Burrow needs to be USED... I often let games vs. zerg go into mid game on purpose, and I rarely see diversity in a zerg army(usually just piles of roaches or piles of hydras). Zerg need to remember that rushing to utlralisk or brood lords is not an auto win and that having a balanced army with a few casters can be quite powerful. All of this is quite expected though as zerg do not seem to make it to mid game very often.... and when they do I am sure they have to manually click the fungal growth spell on the screen with the cursor. 1a click won't cut if for the race anymore. Some day they will get there.
Yep, all those shitty, clueless Zerg players who have reached the same level as you using a race that is almost universally considered to be both weaker and harder to play...
|
On September 10 2010 07:02 cuppatea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 06:44 Rabbet wrote:
^ Burrow needs to be USED... I often let games vs. zerg go into mid game on purpose, and I rarely see diversity in a zerg army(usually just piles of roaches or piles of hydras). Zerg need to remember that rushing to utlralisk or brood lords is not an auto win and that having a balanced army with a few casters can be quite powerful. All of this is quite expected though as zerg do not seem to make it to mid game very often.... and when they do I am sure they have to manually click the fungal growth spell on the screen with the cursor. 1a click won't cut if for the race anymore. Some day they will get there.
Yep, all those shitty, clueless Zerg players who have reached the same level as you using a race that is almost universally considered to be both weaker and harder to play...
By the zerg players themselves 
|
Well written. As a Zerg player, I entirely agree.
You know, unless the Terran player techs up to Siege Tanks or scans me (which happens quite frequently, actually now that I think about it) the Baneling Bust can be quite effective- but if I get scouted (which Terran can easily do, instantly), it's all over.
|
United States22154 Posts
Everyone keeps complaining about reapers, if only zerg had some kind of flying unit that they had to get anyway and that could be placed around the base to spot for the reapers and some small cheap unit that is fast on creep and could move to the position where the reapers are going to jump to surround them when they arrive and slaughter them...
|
On September 10 2010 08:50 GMarshal wrote:
Everyone keeps complaining about reapers, if only zerg had some kind of flying unit that they had to get anyway and that could be placed around the base to spot for the reapers and some small cheap unit that is fast on creep and could move to the position where the reapers are going to jump to surround them when they arrive and slaughter them...
You don't need to jump to attack, Reapers can just fly along the ground to the natural and attack the hatchery making the Zerg player send all his Zerglings there, then they dart back off the creep and kite the lings, forcing the Zerg to invest in Roaches, which then get countered by the transition into M&M.
The true power of 5 Rax Reapers isn't that the Reapers can win the game by themselves, it's how they can damage the Zerg's economy without killing a single Drone, while leaving the Terran economy untouched (and giving him enough minerals to expand safely!) and setting up for a powerful mid-game push without having to build any additional structures.
|
walling in is fine and all, it definately should give you an defensive bonus and a feel of security. at the same time you should have a feeling of "damn i have no expo im behind damn hes preparing to get his 3rd, DAMN im behind". but as a T you won`t have this fear cause youre prepairing 1 of 10 BRUTAL timing pushes that either A) kill the zerg or B) cripple the zerg so much that you will be able to get your 1st expansion and be AT LEAST even with the zerg that had 13 minutes COMPLETE CONTROL over the map. there is no logical reason to fast expand as terran, of course its nice and youll get more stuff but its in comparison to an invincible 1 base "ok lets see what we got ... " type of play not viable. T has scan has 4free bunkers. there is nothing a T needs to fear. just nothing until muta.
now imagine a zerg 1baseing with some spine crawlers "walling in" in order to tech to i dont know ... something. then you have already lost. that`s fine its the nature of zerg but it cant be the nature of zerg to be harrassed by highspeed hellions coming out of a depot wall or by reapers jumping down a cliff or by banshees flying over the depot and the cliff at the same time with the knowlegde that you can`t punish that terran cost effectively / at all for his funny 1base everythinging. and then you finally reach mutas and fly around. you`ll be able to hurt him no doubt. but if you wanna kill him you need T3. for T3 you need 4 bases+. hes still on 2 bases thinking of getting his 3rd. ...
give terrans the need to expand, the need to care about map control. and im not speaking of after 20minutes+.
|
United States22154 Posts
On September 10 2010 08:56 archon256 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 08:50 GMarshal wrote:
Everyone keeps complaining about reapers, if only zerg had some kind of flying unit that they had to get anyway and that could be placed around the base to spot for the reapers and some small cheap unit that is fast on creep and could move to the position where the reapers are going to jump to surround them when they arrive and slaughter them...
You don't need to jump to attack, Reapers can just fly along the ground to the natural and attack the hatchery making the Zerg player send all his Zerglings there, then they dart back off the creep and kite the lings, forcing the Zerg to invest in Roaches, which then get countered by the transition into M&M. The true power of 5 Rax Reapers isn't that the Reapers can win the game by themselves, it's how they can damage the Zerg's economy without killing a single Drone, while leaving the Terran economy untouched (and giving him enough minerals to expand safely!) and setting up for a powerful mid-game push without having to build any additional structures.
I concede the point of this, when I posted I wasn't actually thinking of 5 rax reaper, I was considering smaller numbers, although I would still contest that 4-5 spines and a queen or two with transfuse at the choke to your nat along with the speedlings to counter the cliff jumping should be workable, although as I don't play zerg and generally avoid reapers in my builds I cannot confirm this.
|
Its a bit more complicated than just that. Actually, it's a lot more complicated. Walls are not the problem, any BW player can attest to that. The problem for the early game is the ability to wall without sacrificing early aggression. This is the result of maps allowing ridiculously easy walls, and relative weakness of zerglings to the terran reaper/bio, and the protoss zealot.
To wall in in BW as toss you had to open forge (or on some maps with long rush, gateway forge), so zerg could safely just do econ builds (12 hatch standard, even double hatch before pool). Now, toss can wall effectively with dual gates and however any zealots are needed to clog the choke, or a couple of sentries. They can, without issue, do a two gate zealot push and still reap the economic benefits of a fast expand. However, many maps do not accommodate an expo wall off so it's not that big of an issue (defending an expo as toss is reallllly difficult).
Terran can wall off and deny any zerg FE build with reapers. Then they can safely expo in their main and float it off when they feel safe, which can be achieved with a free bunker or PF and autorepair SVCs combined with retarded zergling AI. Turrets with insane DPS, 8 range, 3 armor and repairing SCVs can kill an inordinate amount of mutalisks and protect against drops and burrow-bys. Terran expos are essentially free from all harassment.
|
On September 10 2010 09:36 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 08:56 archon256 wrote:On September 10 2010 08:50 GMarshal wrote:
Everyone keeps complaining about reapers, if only zerg had some kind of flying unit that they had to get anyway and that could be placed around the base to spot for the reapers and some small cheap unit that is fast on creep and could move to the position where the reapers are going to jump to surround them when they arrive and slaughter them...
You don't need to jump to attack, Reapers can just fly along the ground to the natural and attack the hatchery making the Zerg player send all his Zerglings there, then they dart back off the creep and kite the lings, forcing the Zerg to invest in Roaches, which then get countered by the transition into M&M. The true power of 5 Rax Reapers isn't that the Reapers can win the game by themselves, it's how they can damage the Zerg's economy without killing a single Drone, while leaving the Terran economy untouched (and giving him enough minerals to expand safely!) and setting up for a powerful mid-game push without having to build any additional structures. I concede the point of this, when I posted I wasn't actually thinking of 5 rax reaper, I was considering smaller numbers, although I would still contest that 4-5 spines and a queen or two with transfuse at the choke to your nat along with the speedlings to counter the cliff jumping should be workable, although as I don't play zerg and generally avoid reapers in my builds I cannot confirm this.
Spine Crawlers are just not good enough. They take too long to build, and when reapers get a critical mass of reapers, they take down spine crawlers so fast. It's not even funny.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
