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(dear mods you can change the title if you want to, but please don't lock the thread these are actual problems with the game and im not mindlessly complaining. I also main Terran and off race Zerg so please don't say it's biased against Terran, I play the race and i know that there are problems with it. Just because it's a balance thread doesn't mandate an auto lock especially with the reasoning in the changes. )
After reading decemvrie two threads and how horrendously off he is, I decided to take my own spin on the issues. His changes are just numerical balance changes when the real flaws of the game run much deeper than that. Balance changes are fine and dandy, but they're only helpful when you have solid game design in the first place, which Starcraft 2 does not.
Creep Mechanic
The number one flaw of the game as it butchers Zerg completely. It permits the supposed "aggressive" race to be completely defensive. It's a mechanic that is a handicap instead of bonus and makes the race who's strengths are supposed to be it's mobility be completely immobile. I honestly see where Blizzard was coming from, but honestly they implemented it terribly. The only time Zerg can be aggressive with the current implementation of creep is when they have a definite advantage over the opponent. You cannot harass or do quick counter attacks with anything that are not speedlings or mutalisks and I'm not even gonna go into Hydras.
The real only fix to this is to keep creep, but instead of mobility bonus it should be HP Regen. This is because it promotes aggressive play and makes creep a place to fall back to after an attack instead of a mandatory TO attack. On creep speed is now the same as off creep speed (can be adjusted for certain units)
The Versatility of the Tech Lab
This is what is breaking Terran right now. For 50 minerals 25 gas and 25 seconds Terran opens EVERY SINGLE UNIT out of a production building instead of incredibly niche units. This makes it so it's impossible to accurately scout or predict what Terran is doing and makes it impossible to punish Terran as they can just tech switch anyway. When Terran can tech switch from reapers into marauders INSTANTLY with no punishing factor it is terrible game design. When you can go from a banshee into any air unit you want INSTANTLY with no punishing factor its terrible game design. Terran can tech switch instantly with nothing that punishes them from doing it. This is why TvZ is broken in the early game.
The fix to this is to increase tech lab build time to 35 seconds and increase the cost to 50/50 AND bring back the academy to open up reaper tech tree and certain infantry upgrades. This makes Terran have to go a distinct tech tree for bio and makes it easier to have a strategy ready to combat it. I also would enjoy Banshee's cloak being a fusion core upgrade, but thats overkill~
The Power of the Marauder
Honestly I think the marauders are an awesome unit and amazing to play with (terran main) but i can admit that they are overpowered in the early game and in certain aspects. First off marauders give free map control for the whole early game and forces protoss to go tier 2 instantly which eliminates FE play for Toss while letting Terran doing anything they want. The second problem is there upgrades which makes marauders into super heroes. Concussive shells disallows any micro from the opponent and punishes skirmishes and harassment. Stim and marauders is just ridiculous in how fast marauders can kill anything armored, how fast they become (lol synergy), and how little drawbacks are there from using it. I'm not gonna even get into marauder drops which are completely stupid (again im a terran main)
To fix the marauder you have to look at the problems with bio upgrades. I'm gonna steal an idea from Gretorp (check out balance suggestions from Xeris's thread from MLG Raleigh) which is to combine Combat shield into a marine and marauder health upgrade while nerfing marauders starting hp to 100. This is to promote distinctive bio upgrades while punishing Stim timing pushes and makes marauders easier to handle in the early game. As well as this concussive shells and combat shield are now unlocked from the academy. Buildings also shouldn't be armored btw~
Battle Dynamics
I'm gonna quote an amazing article "Under The Microscope" made by Saracen who puts it into words better than i ever could.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=135462
Dynamics. It’s what makes Brood War tick. Even though the number of viable units in each match up is relatively small (you likely would see the exact same units every game), the amount of outcomes is enormous. The way each unit interacts on the battlefield, the way each player must exploit these units to their fullest potential gives Brood War its immense depth and longevity. It’s not something just anyone can master. It requires smart thinking and quick and accurate hands, everything we admire in a progamer. But it takes the hands of a god to play this game to perfection, and a battle between gods is so damn beautiful to watch.
Back in Brood War, you had a nice counter interaction between clearly overpowered spells – irradiate and dark swarm, EMP, stasis field, and recall, psionic storm and, well, storm dodging and mutalisk sniping. Fast forward to SC2 and the emergence of autocasting, and the dynamics and unit potential are changed entirely. First, many spell interactions are no longer possible. Storm dodging is a thing of the past, as a pack of templar can deplete their energy in rapid succession faster than enemy units are physically able to move out of the damage radius. Spells like fungal growth suffer a similar fate. And then there are the new spells. Force field is a prime example of a spell that shuts down dynamics instead of promoting them, because, aside from a high-tech massive unit ramming into them, there is literally no way for an opponent to micro against force field. The success or failure of the battle, then (especially in the early and mid game), depends solely on a single player, and how well he places his force fields, while the other player can only sit back and watch. Compare this to even a terribly underused spell like disruption web, which forced more micro from the opponent, as well as created a positional advantage, and the difference between the two games is clear. And, with spells so much easier to handle, it’s blatantly obvious that a nerf is needed. But with the nerf to spells comes a terrible price – a single spell caster’s unit potential is decreased considerably. Again, look at high templar. No amount of SC2 high templar will ever be able to match the devastation and havoc Jangbi's few could wreak on a tank line. No amount of infestors will change the a game as much as GGplay's defilers did versus Iris. And with the dumbing-down of spell casters, we lose one more important thing: key timing windows. Remember in TvZ when all the Zerg had to do was hold out until a single ability finished before he could turn the entire game around? Remember how nail-bitingly exciting it was to watch those old Savior games where he would stall and stall until the very last second? Or the hydra bust that comes right before storm finishes? Or the siege mode and mines that come out just in time to stop the early Protoss aggression? Such hit-or-miss precision, such tense anticipation is no more.
A similar phenomenon exists with the reduction of splash damage. We have gone from the lurker to the baneling, from the corsair to the phoenix, from the reaver to the immortal and colossus, from the spider mine to the, well, nothing, and from the archon to the pitiful ball of a unit that goes by the same name. In Brood War, splash damage was a double edged sword. It forced micro from both you and your opponent (manually targeting to maximize damage versus splitting your army to minimize damage), but it also exponentially grew in power, such that a critical mass was with ranged splash units existed at surprisingly small numbers. The point? Splashing units in small numbers are great in that they encourage battle dynamics, but a large number of splashing units is hard to balance. So, with SC2, the units lose much of their splashing ability and effectiveness to compensate for easier control and smart AI. And even then, you can still see the tremendous power of splash units en masse. Just take a look at all the “Terran mech imba” threads that clutter the strategy forum. For balance’s sake, there’s no way you could argue against Blizzard’s decision of watering down splash damage. But with that decision, you will no longer bet on how many kills a reaver harass will net, or watch one of the most brilliant timing attacks in Starcraft history.
Honestly to fix this would require a new thread and a complete re working of certain spells so I'm not even going to go into it.
The Maps
The overarching flaw in the game. When you're playing the game you would think the thing you play on would be balanced and well designed, well Blizzard disagrees with you. The maps are too small and too narrow which is what Starcraft plays terribly on. Blizzard also seems to avoid having alternate routes to the enemy, all though ive got to give credit as they finally implemented more ways to flank on Delta Quadrant and Xel Naga Caverns. However they continue to implement wide open naturals which pretty much kills early economic builds forcing more and more 1 base play. Pretty much there really really bad and the community can't do anything about it because blizzard implemented the worst custom game and map making system possible.
Implementing classic BW maps would honestly be the best fix. Having a working map making system that would allow map makers to get there map on ladder would also be amazing.
If your read through the whole thing, congratulations! I was thinking of discussing the warp in mechanic, but then I saw how large it is and i was like eh ill save it for another day. There are specific problems with the game, but these broad flaws are really the true root of balance problems.
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A lot of very good thoughts listed here. Especially that regarding the Tech Lab. I had not thought about it so much as of yet but the transition in terms of Terran tech between BW and SC2 is absolutely huge, and there does seem to be quite a disparity between terran tech paths and those of protoss and zerg.
I think your post puts in to words the frustration that a lot of TL'ers are having at this point in time and I remain faithful in blizzard to make an honest attempt to fix these issues.
The game is still very young, but issues do need to be pointed out along with evidence and I think you're post does an exceedingly good job with that.
Very nice write up. =]
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nothing new here that hasn't already been discussed
also what's your rank?
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United States889 Posts
On September 02 2010 01:02 OHtRUe wrote:
Creep Mechanic
The number one flaw of the game as it butchers Zerg completely. It permits the supposed "aggressive" race to be completely defensive. It's a mechanic that is a handicap instead of bonus and makes the race who's strengths are supposed to be it's mobility be completely immobile. I honestly see where Blizzard was coming from, but honestly they implemented it terribly. The only time Zerg can be aggressive with the current implementation of creep is when they have a definite advantage over the opponent. You cannot harass or do quick counter attacks with anything that are not speedlings or mutalisks and I'm not even gonna go into Hydras.
The real only fix to this is to keep creep, but instead of mobility bonus it should be HP Regen. This is because it promotes aggressive play and makes creep a place to fall back to after an attack instead of a mandatory TO attack. On creep speed is now the same as off creep speed (can be adjusted for certain units)
I don't understand your argument here at all. It's one thing to say Zerg ought to be faster and another to make some sort of twisted assertion that a speed boost on creep is a flaw(?).
It also doesn't make sense to say it's a problem if it permits Zerg to do something else. Honestly, if Zerg was forced to be aggressive all the time, I'd much more easily conclude that that is the flaw than anything else. There may be better ways to play a race, but every option ought to be available. It doesn't help, or make anything more interesting, to limit options. Expanding options is almost always the better choice.
As said before, creep doesn't make Zerg immobile, which you seem to be trying to say somehow. It just makes them more mobile elsewhere. Right now, there is hardly any combo more mobile than muta/ling. Hydra roach is a little clumsy, but with speed upgrade on the roaches it's better. Ultras are wayyy faster than they were in BW, and they can actually keep up okay with the rest of your army. Hydras are the lone unit that's exceedingly slow by comparison, and that is something that can be compensated for. By that I mean, I basically don't agree with anything you're saying about Zerg's mobility.
In BW, you really couldn't do speedy things with anything other than mutas and lings anyway, so your point about harrassment is a little silly. How many units should Zerg be able to harass with? In what way? Those are important questions. Honestly, too, speed roaches and speed banelings can move really fast compared to some opposing compositions.
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When Terran can tech switch from reapers into marauders INSTANTLY with no punishing factor it is terrible game design. When you can go from a banshee into any air unit you want INSTANTLY
Protoss can do the same no? i mean, they can change form stalkers to zealots INSTANTLY and void rays to phoenixes INSTANTLY aswell
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I agree. I would rank them:
#1 Maps (need to be more open space in middle, larger)
#2 Seige Tank Overkill (this is what made BW positioning and unit control so dynamic)
#3 High Ground Mechanic
#4 Marauder Strength/tech (I think Terran need another tech building or two in general, it's too easy for them to tech)
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On September 02 2010 02:19 Snowfield wrote:Show nested quote +When Terran can tech switch from reapers into marauders INSTANTLY with no punishing factor it is terrible game design. When you can go from a banshee into any air unit you want INSTANTLY Protoss can do the same no? i mean, they can change form stalkers to zealots INSTANTLY and void rays to phoenixes INSTANTLY aswell
But Stalkers and Zealots don't INSTANTLY vaporize armored/light units. Reapers counter Zerg early game pretty hard, and when controlled, can deal damage to Roaches. Marauders, well, they annihilate what the Reapers can't easily kill.
When all else fails, Marines are there to pick up the slack.
But his point is that for 50/25 you get two insanely good (situational, maybe) units, whereas Toss have to spend 150 and wait much longer for Stalkers, or Zerg 150 and wait for Roaches.
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very nice effort in ur write up, good argument snd nicde thoughts, i do disagree with a few of ur points, such as the psi storm for instance, its not hard for a stimmed bio ball to get out of a storm at all, its quite frustrating for me as a protoss player actually as to how well they can dodge them or quickly get out of them.
but im not sure about how i feel about the constant references u make to SC:BW. yes it was a great and balanced game, but sc2 is a new game, with different mechanics, and different styles, and its still young and we need to let it evolved and flourish, and point out flaws and imbalances to blizzard in the months and years to come as we discover the game, and not compare it to broodwar, the past is the past and i think its best if we ignore broodwar when it comes to terms of balancing sc2.
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I'm glad people are finally starting to concentrate on the real source of the early game imbalance problem. The fact of the matter is that the tech-lab on barracks simultaneously enables very early production at minimal cost of a cliff-jumping extremely mobile unit that owns light, a very high-hp durable tank unit that devastates armored units and buildings, and a cheap all-purpose versatile high-dps unit that can attack ground or air. Relative to what is available to the other races in the early game, this variety is insane.
How this design was allowed to persist all through beta is beyond me. It seems to me like Blizzard could have made their jobs a lot easier by trying to alter this dynamic instead of the nightmare it has been to try and balance around it.
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k yeah terran techswitch is fast but it's not faster than zerg or protoss. protoss basically their entire core army comes out of warpgates and whatever they want to supplement that army they go on a little side techpatch. zerg you build one tech structure and then you can build as much of that unit as you want out of your hatcheries. you can instantly go from 200/200 roaches to 200/200 mutas at any point given you got the ONE tech structure required.
where terrans tehc is weak is in that if they produce like 7 rax or 7 factories or 7 starports they've commited to doing a strategy with those buildings and if you've produced the counters then they are gunna be hard pressed to get enough of different tech to suprise you. and liek you said switching from banshee tech to any other air unit. im assuming then vikings or ravens as cattlebruisers DO have a seperate tech structure. well anything that comes out of a starports i garantee sucks horribly against hydras and mutas. a strength ive used when playing zerg in beta was going ling muta seeing the terran overcompensate on hellions or marines and then getting istantly getting 14 larva of roaches after my initial push and then burrow moving them under his army and destroying him witht hata nd the mutas overhead. cuz my tech switch was just so fast cuz i built ONE building.
however i do agree that marauders are too strong and i think tanks need to be stronger personally.
i think marauders should be 90 HP OR not have stim. tanks i think should be:
siege mode damage 35+35 vs armored basically similar to their BW damage makes them still 3 shot roaches and hydras but allows them not to get completely steamrolled when ultras pop out.
i also thinkg they should be 2 supply and 100 gas cuz eventually big maps will come out in which it'll be impossible to mech on vs P and Z's mobility.
i think their HP shoudl be 150 again so that immortals 3 shot them but with tanks damage of 35+35 without shields the immortals can get 3 shotted too.
i think siege mode cost should increase to 150/150. and splash radius shoudl be ever so slightly lowered.
tanks having no overkill is overrated imo because in my eyes it makes up for the fact that tanks no longer have spider mines to do additional splash and also cover for them.
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On September 02 2010 02:19 Arrian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 01:02 OHtRUe wrote:
Creep Mechanic
The number one flaw of the game as it butchers Zerg completely. It permits the supposed "aggressive" race to be completely defensive. It's a mechanic that is a handicap instead of bonus and makes the race who's strengths are supposed to be it's mobility be completely immobile. I honestly see where Blizzard was coming from, but honestly they implemented it terribly. The only time Zerg can be aggressive with the current implementation of creep is when they have a definite advantage over the opponent. You cannot harass or do quick counter attacks with anything that are not speedlings or mutalisks and I'm not even gonna go into Hydras.
The real only fix to this is to keep creep, but instead of mobility bonus it should be HP Regen. This is because it promotes aggressive play and makes creep a place to fall back to after an attack instead of a mandatory TO attack. On creep speed is now the same as off creep speed (can be adjusted for certain units)
I don't understand your argument here at all. It's one thing to say Zerg ought to be faster and another to make some sort of twisted assertion that a speed boost on creep is a flaw(?). It also doesn't make sense to say it's a problem if it permits Zerg to do something else. Honestly, if Zerg was forced to be aggressive all the time, I'd much more easily conclude that that is the flaw than anything else. There may be better ways to play a race, but every option ought to be available. It doesn't help, or make anything more interesting, to limit options. Expanding options is almost always the better choice. As said before, creep doesn't make Zerg immobile, which you seem to be trying to say somehow. It just makes them more mobile elsewhere. Right now, there is hardly any combo more mobile than muta/ling. Hydra roach is a little clumsy, but with speed upgrade on the roaches it's better. Ultras are wayyy faster than they were in BW, and they can actually keep up okay with the rest of your army. Hydras are the lone unit that's exceedingly slow by comparison, and that is something that can be compensated for. By that I mean, I basically don't agree with anything you're saying about Zerg's mobility. In BW, you really couldn't do speedy things with anything other than mutas and lings anyway, so your point about harrassment is a little silly. How many units should Zerg be able to harass with? In what way? Those are important questions. Honestly, too, speed roaches and speed banelings can move really fast compared to some opposing compositions.
Zerg is supposed to be mobile, and right now they are mobile while on creep. However, Creep acts as more of a limiter than a bonus really as the game is clearly balanced with zerg units having their on creep speed during a fight. Without the creep speed, every unit besides the speedlings and mutalisks get kited into oblivion.
It is plain out hard to be aggressive as zerg until your creep is spread. There is a reason why every zerg goes Muta/Ling/Bling nearly every game... Creep is a handicap because a core unit like the Hydralisk requires it 100% of the time. Imagine if Protoss players could only use stalkers in their own base, or maybe with a cutesy suicide drop every once and awhile.
Quite honestly, when is the last time a zerg player pushed you at a difficult to manage time? Or for that matter, when is the last time you've even seen a Hydra used in higher level play?
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Uhm, I think the OP needs to revisit a number of these things and try actually seeing things in action, because the way you present these things makes it look like you haven't done any of that at all. Your theories are full of holes and you're trying to find issues that don't exist.
Have you discussed these things with pro players and tried to figure out why Blizzard have these things implemented? Cause most of this has already been addressed.
Just a little hint - things aren't necessarily always as they immediately seem. There might be a little deeper thought behind Blizzard's decisions than what you seem to assume.
The Art of War is a great book to read, I recommend it to anyone regardless. It's even a suitable book for skimming, so you don't need to read it word-by-word.
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I honestly doubt we'll see any major core mechanic changes at all. We will see a few new units and upgrades over the next 2 expansions, but some sort of massive rework is out of the question.
Tiny changes cause uproars on these forums and the official ones, so imagine if Blizzard would say:"Sorry,we fucked up with the marauder, so we're removing it from MP, but here's a nice firebat as a consolation prize."
I for one have faith that Blizzard is gonna implement well though out changes and not just start throwing patches up every week in response to fads.
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On September 02 2010 02:19 Snowfield wrote:Show nested quote +When Terran can tech switch from reapers into marauders INSTANTLY with no punishing factor it is terrible game design. When you can go from a banshee into any air unit you want INSTANTLY Protoss can do the same no? i mean, they can change form stalkers to zealots INSTANTLY and void rays to phoenixes INSTANTLY aswell
Good. Then make the tech lab match my cybernetics core costs.
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Given the number of changes people want to make to the game, you'd figure that Zerg only win 30% of their games, rather then the 49.5% they do on ladder.
Hydras moving at stalker speeds off-creep would be insanely overpowered. And I can't imagine you referring to anything else when you want to buff off-creep unit movement speeds.
Creep giving movement speed is a good mechanic. It gives the race a much-needed defensive advantage.
If anything, the game needs more defensive advantages, which would encourage macro-oriented gameplay, instead of one-base all-ins.
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Oh boy, here we go again - at this rate, I wonder if it might not be advantages to implement a balances/suggestions board at some point  .
Anyways, interesting observations OP, but like you've noted, it's really nothing that really hasn't been said already. And the fact that you have to call out decemvrie specifically makes this feel like all a big dick-waving contest.
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Honestly I think it's mainly the maps, play on the iCCup maps and you will see... =P
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You have very good insights. I perfectly agree with you. The problem of SC2 is not the numbers but the design. Who would have thought that a game with 2010 technology would be inferior in mechanics to a 1998 game.... But I guess that has smth to do with the absolute brilliance of BW which SC2 is merely trying to imitate.
All I can say is, I hope the devs are listening to you and that your suggestion does not get burried under tons of filthy QQ.
We can only hope that for HotS some of the mechanics would be revisited and then the game can evolve. In the meantime, given that the map-editor is so strong, personally I would encourage new map makers of creating new mechanics that could be revised by TL and maybe give blizzard an idea of what we like.
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On September 02 2010 02:57 GGzerG wrote:
Honestly I think it's mainly the maps, play on the iCCup maps and you will see... =P
agreed
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Hyrule19035 Posts
On September 02 2010 02:54 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 02:19 Snowfield wrote:When Terran can tech switch from reapers into marauders INSTANTLY with no punishing factor it is terrible game design. When you can go from a banshee into any air unit you want INSTANTLY Protoss can do the same no? i mean, they can change form stalkers to zealots INSTANTLY and void rays to phoenixes INSTANTLY aswell Good. Then make the tech lab match my cybernetics core costs.
Only if we get drop pods/warp in like we can in campaign.
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EPT
