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My vote would be to get rid of the creep mechanics entirely except for how it affects the queen and static defense... HP regen is a terrible idea, just like it was in Wc3
My vote would be that you reduce marauder damage and make them entirely a tank/slowing unit.. they would need to be reworked a bit though, IMO hp increase is the best. Support/Caster units from the barracks should be support units, this is very similar to the Wc3/RoC caster era.
You need to make sure Terran still has an answer to banelings/4 gate. I disagree with the tech lab point entirely. If you make marauders take more of a support role, it will help with the issue a lot, but it's currently pretty balanced.
I completely agree with the maps though.
This is just another whining post about Terran though, pretty unoriginal.
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On September 02 2010 02:19 Arrian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 01:02 OHtRUe wrote:
Creep Mechanic
The number one flaw of the game as it butchers Zerg completely. It permits the supposed "aggressive" race to be completely defensive. It's a mechanic that is a handicap instead of bonus and makes the race who's strengths are supposed to be it's mobility be completely immobile. I honestly see where Blizzard was coming from, but honestly they implemented it terribly. The only time Zerg can be aggressive with the current implementation of creep is when they have a definite advantage over the opponent. You cannot harass or do quick counter attacks with anything that are not speedlings or mutalisks and I'm not even gonna go into Hydras.
The real only fix to this is to keep creep, but instead of mobility bonus it should be HP Regen. This is because it promotes aggressive play and makes creep a place to fall back to after an attack instead of a mandatory TO attack. On creep speed is now the same as off creep speed (can be adjusted for certain units)
I don't understand your argument here at all. It's one thing to say Zerg ought to be faster and another to make some sort of twisted assertion that a speed boost on creep is a flaw(?). It also doesn't make sense to say it's a problem if it permits Zerg to do something else. Honestly, if Zerg was forced to be aggressive all the time, I'd much more easily conclude that that is the flaw than anything else. There may be better ways to play a race, but every option ought to be available. It doesn't help, or make anything more interesting, to limit options. Expanding options is almost always the better choice. As said before, creep doesn't make Zerg immobile, which you seem to be trying to say somehow. It just makes them more mobile elsewhere. Right now, there is hardly any combo more mobile than muta/ling. Hydra roach is a little clumsy, but with speed upgrade on the roaches it's better. Ultras are wayyy faster than they were in BW, and they can actually keep up okay with the rest of your army. Hydras are the lone unit that's exceedingly slow by comparison, and that is something that can be compensated for. By that I mean, I basically don't agree with anything you're saying about Zerg's mobility. In BW, you really couldn't do speedy things with anything other than mutas and lings anyway, so your point about harrassment is a little silly. How many units should Zerg be able to harass with? In what way? Those are important questions. Honestly, too, speed roaches and speed banelings can move really fast compared to some opposing compositions.
What?
If the zerg is off creep they can be kited so easily by just about anything unless it's a speedling or mutalisk. This means that a Zerg is pretty much horribly at a disadvantage off of creep and breaks about even on Creep.
Basically this makes any part of the map a no-zerg zone if it doesnt have creep. So yea, they are definitely constrained by creep and the dumb speed mechanic.
You're rather wrong about BW too...Hydras were more than fast enough to do hit and run attacks, as were Ultras. in SC2 a hydra off creep is laughable.
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`bigger maps will solve alot 
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On September 02 2010 02:19 Arrian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 01:02 OHtRUe wrote:
Creep Mechanic
The number one flaw of the game as it butchers Zerg completely. It permits the supposed "aggressive" race to be completely defensive. It's a mechanic that is a handicap instead of bonus and makes the race who's strengths are supposed to be it's mobility be completely immobile. I honestly see where Blizzard was coming from, but honestly they implemented it terribly. The only time Zerg can be aggressive with the current implementation of creep is when they have a definite advantage over the opponent. You cannot harass or do quick counter attacks with anything that are not speedlings or mutalisks and I'm not even gonna go into Hydras.
The real only fix to this is to keep creep, but instead of mobility bonus it should be HP Regen. This is because it promotes aggressive play and makes creep a place to fall back to after an attack instead of a mandatory TO attack. On creep speed is now the same as off creep speed (can be adjusted for certain units)
I don't understand your argument here at all. It's one thing to say Zerg ought to be faster and another to make some sort of twisted assertion that a speed boost on creep is a flaw(?). It also doesn't make sense to say it's a problem if it permits Zerg to do something else. Honestly, if Zerg was forced to be aggressive all the time, I'd much more easily conclude that that is the flaw than anything else. There may be better ways to play a race, but every option ought to be available. It doesn't help, or make anything more interesting, to limit options. Expanding options is almost always the better choice. As said before, creep doesn't make Zerg immobile, which you seem to be trying to say somehow. It just makes them more mobile elsewhere. Right now, there is hardly any combo more mobile than muta/ling. Hydra roach is a little clumsy, but with speed upgrade on the roaches it's better. Ultras are wayyy faster than they were in BW, and they can actually keep up okay with the rest of your army. Hydras are the lone unit that's exceedingly slow by comparison, and that is something that can be compensated for. By that I mean, I basically don't agree with anything you're saying about Zerg's mobility. In BW, you really couldn't do speedy things with anything other than mutas and lings anyway, so your point about harrassment is a little silly. How many units should Zerg be able to harass with? In what way? Those are important questions. Honestly, too, speed roaches and speed banelings can move really fast compared to some opposing compositions.
he means that in practice, it just means the core zerg army is useless outside of creep, which i totally agree with.
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On September 02 2010 02:40 Champi wrote:
very nice effort in ur write up, good argument snd nicde thoughts, i do disagree with a few of ur points, such as the psi storm for instance, its not hard for a stimmed bio ball to get out of a storm at all, its quite frustrating for me as a protoss player actually as to how well they can dodge them or quickly get out of them.
I think the OP is making an overall statement about the way spells work now compared to BW. There isn't a give and take. Or a risk/reward.
Storm dodging is a thing of the past, as a pack of templar can deplete their energy in rapid succession faster than enemy units are physically able to move out of the damage radius.
You don't anticipate where those Hydra are going to be in half a second's time. And you don't plan for a storm to catch him when he tries to dodge. You just cover every inch of the field with storm. And for your opponents part. You don't try and for-see where that storm is going to land or plan an escape route. The storm is everywhere. Your only recourse is to move back. You don't storm Dodge any more. You just run backwards and keep running backwards. Because in SC2 storm is spammable. You can put storms on top of his army in front of his army and behind his army in literal seconds. It's less skill for both sides. And it's just something that happens rather than something that's dynamic.
Just like force field.
Force field is a prime example of a spell that shuts down dynamics instead of promoting them, because, aside from a high-tech massive unit ramming into them, there is literally no way for an opponent to micro against force field. The success or failure of the battle, then (especially in the early and mid game), depends solely on a single player
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I agree with everything listed, but we have to be a bit realistic here. Things like changing smartcasting and the dynamic of spells in the game is nearly impossible without completely revamping the interface. This just isn't possible at the stage of the game and the state of the game industry in general.
However, I completely agree with the Marauder and Creep. Right now, the Marauder is completely destroying the state of the game. This unit itself shuts down any economy base play, and it's so easy to mass Marauders in early game that most people don't even risk anything but a 1 base play early on. Tons of health, huge damage output, ability to stim AND kite? There's just something wrong here. I don't understand why Blizzard still fails to see how the Roach is a former shadow of itself being nerfed to oblivion, while they keep the Marauder (designed to counter the Roach obviously) with nearly no nerfs with the exception of requiring research for concussive shells. It's insane just how easy it is for Terran to control the pace of the game and so early on with a single unit, but it's what they can do. I like the idea of reducing health and requiring the upgrade for it later, makes early game a bit more manageable without completely ruining the Marauder.
I love and hate the creep in this game. It makes you fast, REALLY fast. Almost to the point of OP. However, at what cost? Off creep, Zerg units are just horrible outside of speedlings. The nature of the maps don't help flanking positions either. There needs to be some sort of new medium between the current on and off creep for travel speed off creep. Perhaps making zerg units decently fast both on and off creep, and then allow for some sort of research at lair to allow zerg units travel faster on creep. Because honestly, I believe the creep is promoting both super aggressive play and super turtle play on both sides with the current nature. Zerg doesn't want to fight off creep, opponents don't want to fight on creep. Make Zerg units somewhat fast regardless of creep, then give them the upgrade later on. Gives both sides more options. Will it work? who knows. Don't know til you try.
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they should make creep tumor invulnerable but it should need like 15-20 seconds to spawn
that way zerg can at least get their half of the map dominated
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On September 02 2010 03:53 Fadetowhite wrote:`bigger maps will solve alot
Bigger maps = more creep to spread 
And remember that creep-spreading isn't one-sided, your opponent can raze creep much faster than you can spread it once he gets his detectors out (and the time it takes to spread creep that much on a big map ought to be enough for him to get them).
Then again, at least Nydus Worms will be far more useful on bigger maps.
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I agree with everything except the creep speed thing, regen on creep (like blight for UD in wc3) would be a terrible change for the speed, zerg needs the speed to defend because they have more bases that have less defense and are farther spread apart. the true problem is how slow they are off-creep
simply lowering the creep speed coefficient (for balance) while raising off-creep speed would go a long way to making zerg feel a lot more aggressive I think
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On September 02 2010 04:11 imperator-xy wrote:
they should make creep tumor invulnerable but it should need like 15-20 seconds to spawn
that way zerg can at least get their half of the map dominated
That can be abused by having an overlord drop a queen at any expansion, spew creep, and spawning a creep tumor that can never be destroyed.
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Nothing new but I'd have like to see Sc2 go more in a BW direction but I guess it's too late since they've already released it :/
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My 2cents on the gameplay issues, specially from terran side is the medivac, the fact that 1unit can heal and transport units is imo downright stupid, every bio-ball get medivac after the stim timed push and it just makes the mobility of the terran army so immense compared to the old medics
if u had say 3groups of marines before, stimmed them and attacked ur medics would often lagg behind and ur marine army would simply die.. while now u can stim, attack and ur medivacs will just fly after ur marines/marauders with no big risk of loosing heal's and since ur "medics" can just load up half ur army and drop them wherever
also i kinda acctually miss the times when, as a terran, u would acctually be afraid of A-moving into the middle against a zerg since without the terrain advantage and prepared army u would quickly be surrounded by the zerg (s)war(m) machine [lol]
but as so many ppl are already saying the maps need to increase in size, and decrease in "destroyable-backdoors" im guessing they were added primarly to counter the turtle terran's defensive abilities but as it turns out its terran who suffer the least from them
p.s what if overseers lost their underused contaminate or just got a new ability added, to drop creep tumors from say 100energy (and made them placeable without creep)
p.s.s its ok for marauders to hard-counter armored units, but why do they "need" to be such an insane support against everything on ground (slowing) then roaches needs something similar aswell, like beign able to grab melee units or something even more crazy like once u kill a roach he breaks up into 2 smaller roaches with ~50ish hp and 10damage that last for 20-30seconds
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On September 02 2010 03:52 fnaticAugury wrote:
My vote would be to get rid of the creep mechanics entirely except for how it affects the queen and static defense... HP regen is a terrible idea, just like it was in Wc3
It was a terrible idea in WC3 because it Handicapped the Undead race for no reason other than to make the races more unique. All the other races could regen away from their base. Why could the Undead not? Purely for adding race flavor and bringing more variety into the game when in actuality it restricted the Undead play style and flavor by forcing their first Hero to be one with a regen aura. It forced a single style and did the opposite of what it was intended to do.
The same is true for creep in SC2. None of the other races have to spread something all over the map to be on par with each other. This makes Zerg unique, but in a restricting way.
I think HP regen would be awesome for creep. Zerg lacks an ability to quickly heal low HP units. The creep would excel in that region without overlapping the Queens Transfusion ability. Which is useful on high hit point units. There would be a benefit to bringing Overlords to battle to spew creep but probably no benefit to spreading it with creep tumors. However creep Tumors give vision so I think they would be worth spreading for that alone.
Having creep tumors main purpose be for spying on the enemy balances out allot better with how easy they are to get rid of. A scan or a Raven/Observer is worth the cost of not being watched while you move around the battlefield. But it's not balanced at all with creeps current mechanics. Denying something so huge for so little is crazy.
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Vatican City State95 Posts
I disagree with what you say about tech labs, you saying they can INSTANTLY switch from reaper to marauders is obvious...however you leave out the fact that for every barracks the player wants to produce a Marauder from they must have a tech lab on it. Where as it only requires zerg or protoss, 1 additional structure to create sen/stalker's roaches or whatever it may be.
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The only thing i agree with are the maps. They seem really small, but that's because of the 'bunching up' maybe.
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OP hit all the nails straight on the head with every issue.
Creep
Tech Labs
Marauders
1-sided Micro Abilities
Maps
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Just change the creep bonus movement mechanic for everyone except for queen and I'll be happy, it's such a bad design to have one of your core and only GtA in actual battles be that slow when you want to be aggressive at all.
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i have the solution to the creep issues , what blizz do is make overlords have an ability to instantly generate creep costing half of thier HP.
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I'm surprised the marauder damage wasn't just nerfed to be like 7-8 + 12-13 to armored. Concussive is sort of ridiculous for the fact that it's the only spell in the game that, once researched, grants the unit to be effective against something that's supposed to counter it. I sort of wish they'd just get rid of it since, like everyone is saying regarding force field, etc., it doesn't add this micro dynamic that was so often claimed early in it's inception.
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On September 02 2010 04:18 archon256 wrote:Bigger maps = more creep to spread And remember that creep-spreading isn't one-sided, your opponent can raze creep much faster than you can spread it once he gets his detectors out (and the time it takes to spread creep that much on a big map ought to be enough for him to get them). Then again, at least Nydus Worms will be far more useful on bigger maps.
This is my fear too. When bigger maps come along the creep mechanic will further be shown as the hindrance that it is. I don't think the 1 at a time Nydus will really solve the core issue here. Not to say that Nydus won't be more useful though.
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EPT
