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On September 02 2010 07:42 arsenic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 07:37 Infowarrior wrote:
Cost to build 3 Marauders simultaneously = 600 Min 75 gas (3 rax @ 150m, 3 TL @ 50min 25gas/ea)
Cost to build 3 Stalkers simultaneously = 600 Min (3 Gate @ 150min/ea , 1 Cyber Core @ 150min)
Cost to build 3 Roaches simultaneously = 150 min (1 Roach Warren @ 150min)
You really can't compare them like that. You have to allocate the sunk costs over each unit that is produced from the building. It's not like you have to pay for a new Barracks and Tech Lab for each Marauder you want to make.
If I want to build them at the same time (simultaneously), than yes I do.
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On September 02 2010 08:12 Sorrowbane wrote:
So let me get this straight ; the fact that I played BW at all is questioned because you ignore that zerg ground units get bonus HP regen on creep in BW ?
While we're into freshmen psychology, maybe you're insecure because someone disagrees with what you think is right ? My gosh, if that's true, MAYBE you use "game imbalance" and "game problems" as an excuse for your inability to become a better player O=
But you don't see me accuse you of any of that. The game is fun. It is mostly balanced. If you have a beef with the core mechanics of the game itself and pretend you can be the judge of it, you better have solid arguments because the folk behind the actual game have more credit at game design than you ever will. Get rid of the personal bashing and present some arguments if you disagree.
It seems that you still think zerg units got a hp regen bonus on creep in BW. THEY DIDN'T. They aren't ignoring this fact because what you stated there is false. That's why everyone is giving you shit cause you can't even get your facts straight and are trying to act like some pro BW gamer.
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On September 02 2010 08:12 Sorrowbane wrote:
So let me get this straight ; the fact that I played BW at all is questioned because you ignore that zerg ground units get bonus HP regen on creep in BW ?
While we're into freshmen psychology, maybe you're insecure because someone disagrees with what you think is right ? My gosh, if that's true, MAYBE you use "game imbalance" and "game problems" as an excuse for your inability to become a better player O=
But you don't see me accuse you of any of that. The game is fun. It is mostly balanced. If you have a beef with the core mechanics of the game itself and pretend you can be the judge of it, you better have solid arguments because the folk behind the actual game have more credit at game design than you ever will. Get rid of the personal bashing and present some arguments if you disagree.
Except zerg ground units don't gain bonus HP regen on creep in BW-.-
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A couple other issues regarding gameplay:
(1) SCVs that are repairing should be auto-targetted, just like attacking SCVs are. It's ridiculous that a Thor surrounded by SCVs repairing it is invincible to lings, because the lings cannot reach the Thor. Furthermore, it's really difficult to manually target the SCVs because the damn Thor is so big on top, so you can't physically click on them. This is extremely aggravating.
(2) Correct me if i am wrong, but Mutalisks shoot at Medivacs BEFORE shooting at Marines!!?!?!?!? This, combined with the SCV auto-repair not being targetted, just doesn't make any sense. I had a swarm of lings and roaches and mutalisks attacking an infantry group. My flock of Mutas were busy chasing medivacs around while my lings and roaches were hitting the infantry and getting owned because infantry just owns roach/ling so badly. GAAHHHHH SO INFURIATING.
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On September 02 2010 08:31 Infowarrior wrote:
If I want to build them at the same time (simultaneously), than yes I do.
You're ignoring a number of factors. Chiefly that larva most also be available, 3 every 27 seconds for roaches which slightly outstrips the spawn rate of a queen, and that larva can then not be used on other things like workers. A queen and a hatch together produce 6 larva total every 40 seconds assuming they're all used right away so for 3 roaches of simultaneous production at 3 larva every 27 seconds that leaves about 25% of the larva left over so that's another ~75% of 300 + 150 minerals to add to your equation leaving the much more accurate cost of roughly 487.5 minerals.
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The tech lab part is pretty ignorant. SC is about really unique races being balanced. what will you say next, that zerg need make gateways so they are on equal footing with protoss? On top of that, you lie in your post. no tech lab does not unlock EVERY SINGLE UNIT. you still need a ghost academy, an armory, and a fusion core.
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And every single time Terran gets pulled out of the context when it's about tech switching.
I'm sorry but if it's not an objective and fair observation of the facts you lost me reading and this from on that terran is the tech switching race.
There is nothing as fast for tech switching then Zerg, and next to it is Protos standing.
Yes Terran can tech switch but it's comming from all different buildings, just like zerg needs buildings, and Terran doesn't only need 1, but multiple to stand a chance and keep up with production.
Terran can't popup 16 eggs in no time out of 1 building, Zerg can, so they are the tech switching guy's, not Terran as it takes a very very long time to rebuild an army even out of multiple buildings! Thats' costing thousands of resources, not just 1 Spire to produce a crap load of muta's or whatever in seconds.
So don't start Terran is thé tech switching race of all. Warp gates spawn twice as many different units then barracks and nearly allot faster, not even including Chrono Boosts !
And lastly I wanna add, Terran found some nice attacks latly to push with early game, boehoe now all go cry a river while this was months the job from the Zerg in Beta (9-pool), Terran had nothing to defend at start, but Terran found way's, besides walling in, later on Protos found a good way (4-gate push) to move out very early game.
But now that Terran can move out with confidence for the first time in months everybody stand on there toe's. Let people find way's to defend, you know it will happen.
Soon, if it wasn't nerfed/patched or what ever the dynamics change again, Zerg would find a nice build order or whatever and everything would flatten out again.
But now everybody is yelling so loudly that Terran will get nerfed and soon, Terran will be underpowered for 99% of the people!
Zerg is used to have a second base for months at low food, that is taken away and everything is unbalanced, ya well ...
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On September 02 2010 08:31 Infowarrior wrote:
If I want to build them at the same time (simultaneously), than yes I do.
As tetracycloide said, you're missing a lot of things if you want to do that kind of a comparison which is ultimately worth nothing because it speaks nothing of the long term benefit of investment. Otherwise you could make it even more drastic and say if you wanted to make 6 Roaches at once, you can add in the cost of a Queen and then multiply the Barracks and Tech Lab cost by 6 and get some ridiculous number pointing at how things are so cheap for Zerg. But that number ultimately means nothing.
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Great post, but the over exaggerations on some parts ( namely tech labs opening up every single unit) and some odd suggestions ( No I'm hugely in favour of creep giving HP regen, I just think it's odd you'd want speed removed) make the post less legit then it really is, and face it, gives haters to things to nitpick at.
However I do think where you talk about Battle Dynamics, the strength of Marauders Early game, and the fact that Creep is more of a Defensive mechanic then an offensive one is pretty interesting.
I do miss having a dynamic fight, where it wasn't up to unit size but more or less unit composition and HOW YOU USED YOUR UNITS. I do have a belief that micro-ing will eventually show up sooner or later, but not to the extent it is in BW ( hopefully I'm wrong though).
And for those wondering why Creep is not offensive, c'mon. You're never ever going to get creep near your enemies base, this isn't beta. Overlords aren't fast enough and don't even spit creep fast enough to be used offensively anymore. Creep has become a defensive thing, if you're enemy attacks, you fight on creep.
Ultimately I agree with a lot of your points. And yes Blizzard fix your damn maps lol.
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There's way too much misinformation in this thread that I don't even know where to start. I'll ignore it and just talk about the original post. 10-15s Tech Lab nerf would do wonders for the brokeness that is early Marauder/Reaper openings. They're so quick to do 5s nerfs on every Zealot; they should be experimenting with delays on Terran openings too. My other main complaint with Tech lab units is that the Marauder is way too damn cost effective. Blizzard argues that since they can only hit ground it's balanced, but then look at the Immortal: Less range, less speed, higher tech, less massable, bulkier, can't kite for shit, and tons less cost effective. A lot of it has to do with that measly 25gas cost for the Marauder. Stalkers (50 gas) aren't twice as good as Marauders, I don't care what people say. I mean wtf. It's like Terran has higher GtG and AtA cost ratios than any other race and they want to keep it that way for some god awful reason.
Creep mechanic I have mixed feelings about. I feel like it's a good mechanic for diversifying gameplay and adding a new strategic element to Zerg play, but at the same time I see how it can gimp the flexibility of a Zerg army. I think you can kill two birds with one stone and take one of the spellcasters and give them a creep ability. Zerg always complain about how boring their race is and their lack of spellcasters, so why not make like a creep bomb that last temporarily but long enough to be useful for an engagement if you have good micro. It can be the Dark Swarm of SC2 and could have debilitating properties. The more reason for Terran to hesitate using bioball, the better.
The spells in the game are fine. Just because they're slightly easier doesn't simplify things, it actually makes the potential for crazy shit to be even more complex. Being capable of more things simultaneously is a good thing. I feel that forcefields can be micro'd out of and that's just whining. Ever play Zerg and bait Forcefields with your Zerglings? Insta-cast aoe stuff is still bullshit though. EMP/Storm all should have weight but be dodgeable.
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really great insight - I strongly agree with you!
Why Blizzard won't use balanced scbw-maps made by professionals or react to the amazing new iccup maps is beyond my understanding, as the current maps are some of the worst maps I've ever seen in my experience with all sorts of RTS-games.
You'd think Blizzard would first really want to balance Maps, because all the other balance-changes made are depending on the maps. So if they for example try to balance warp-ins, the creep-mechanic, any sort of movement-speed or early-harrass-strategies, it won't be balanced at all, just if ppl start to use bigger Maps, which is one thing I've been hoping for since I first saw those tiny little cheese-maps that totally destroy the game atm.
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lol @ tech lab complaint. seems people will complain about nearly anything these days.
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I COMPLETELY agree with your points on maps, and battle dynamics including spellcasters/powerful units in BW.
These two points would fix SO much for the game if they were done properly.
I'd be willing to say it's 95% of what is making SC2 not fun and not dynamic currently.
I agree with your other points as well, with creep, marauders, etc (especially with creep) but the maps and battle dynamics points are definitely HUGE factors that are making the game just not feel right currently.
I keep linking this TL article so many times, and I hope that people continue to read and think about what it has to say, because it aligns with a lot of things that this thread is talking about in the OP: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120471
Blizzard really needs to stop balancing the game around numbers, and start balancing the game around maps and what the units actually do, especially spellcasters.
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The only point i somewhat agree with is the maps.
I feel like alot of maps are too linear or narrow which constrains tactics/strats very often.
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On September 02 2010 02:45 Zoroth wrote:
Uhm, I think the OP needs to revisit a number of these things and try actually seeing things in action, because the way you present these things makes it look like you haven't done any of that at all. Your theories are full of holes and you're trying to find issues that don't exist.
Have you discussed these things with pro players and tried to figure out why Blizzard have these things implemented? Cause most of this has already been addressed.
Just a little hint - things aren't necessarily always as they immediately seem. There might be a little deeper thought behind Blizzard's decisions than what you seem to assume.
The Art of War is a great book to read, I recommend it to anyone regardless. It's even a suitable book for skimming, so you don't need to read it word-by-word.
So was this just a post to increase your post count towards that shiny marine icon?
You made generalizations and addressed nothing in the original post.
"Your theories are full of holes and you're trying to find issues that don't exist."
Uh... care to explain what the hell you're even talking about here? Not even one citation of these "holes" you seem to think exist. Also, for calling someone out on assuming things, you seem to do a lot of it yourself. Either address things you didn't agree with, or don't post.
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The bigger problem with tech labs is not that they are cheap, but that they are interchangable. This, combined with Terran's ease of scouting, allows for very quick responses to anything a player might be doing. He's going mutas? Just swap a techlab off a barracks and put it on your factory; you just saved yourself a bunch of time/money. Your opponent going twilight council with no robo bay? Swap a techlab on a starport for cloaked banshees. Colossus? Reactor on a starport for an easy counter. Essentially, Terran doesn't waste money on teching. You're going to need a factory/starport no matter what and you can prebuild reactors/tech labs and switch them as you see fit.
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People also really need to stop focusing on arguing about tech labs/marauders/creep etc. and what the numbers should be on them in this thread, the stuff that isn't really that important, and focusing on the actual important and extremely insightful things the OP has brought up, such as the maps and battle dynamics sections of his post.
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Marauders dont necessarily need to be nerfed, but adjusted. Im a toss and my number one gripe with this game right now is the marauder. Its like blizzards favorite child who gets the candy and stuff from the parents and never gets grounded while almost every other unit has been spanked and told they had to sit in the corner. The marauder was patted gently on the butt once (conc nerf) but it really didnt do what it needed to.
I think that a marauder speed nerf would be great. No need for damage/health adjustments, just make it so that it doesnt form that awful ball with marines. It makes me rage so hard when i see that neatly-packed ball with stimmed MM rolling around the map like they own it (note: they do).
By making it slower, you slow down terran timing attacks, make conc shells + stim less effective without an outright nerf, and allow chances to split the terran army (flanks, forcefield). Why the marauder is allowed to remain as fast as the marine is beyond me: their synergy is just so magnificent (in a rotten-at-the-core way) that it boggles my mind that blizzard doesnt realize why this unit is currently so dominant and take steps to solve it. Its not something that will be figured out (cant micro against marauders cause of lolconc). It can be beaten, but it still dominates: the fear and threat remains.
If i had a magic wand, i would play a PvT and get good and rage-y and then just go to town on the marauder: (*wave* 1 hp, *wave* melee range, *wave* attack slows down itself instead of the opponent, *wave* when it dies it does significant splash damage to the rest of the bioball) but i think that just nerfing the speed would be a significant start to bring the marauder back down to earth.
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the people that claim that all the games problems can simply be solved by making biger maps.. you do realize that you can play 1v1 games on the 8 player maps and the game prettymuch becomes utterly broken if you do?
Zerg is useless on biger maps because of the creep spreading, it takes the better part of 20 minutes to spread a creep highway from one side to the other side.
all they can do is go mutas and hope to win the game that way, even speedlings take over a two minutes to go from one side to the other side of the map.
lets not even talk about Marauder drops or the stupid sensor towers for terrans.
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truly great post of OP. bump the thread. every word is the truth and this should be posted in the blizzard forum as welll...
looking forward to the next topics aka warp mechanic / queen mechanic / mule - depot -scan...
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EPT
