|
On September 02 2010 21:27 PulseSUI wrote:
the people that claim that all the games problems can simply be solved by making biger maps.. you do realize that you can play 1v1 games on the 8 player maps and the game prettymuch becomes utterly broken if you do?
Zerg is useless on biger maps because of the creep spreading, it takes the better part of 20 minutes to spread a creep highway from one side to the other side.
all they can do is go mutas and hope to win the game that way, even speedlings take over a two minutes to go from one side to the other side of the map.
lets not even talk about Marauder drops or the stupid sensor towers for terrans.
have you followed or watched the bw pro scene?
bigger maps doesnt mean 8 player maps but BIGGER 2 player maps. more expansions. expos which are not easy to harass and spaces on maps which can be secured solely by choke or because its an island expansion.
that means: longer rush distances. more resources for zerg to draw on in the late game. economic orientied build orders. e.g. double expand of zerg. T can practically go 5rax reaper into cc in sc2 while zerg only can go for 2 base at the same time. why? because on every single map the 3rd expo is either very far away or blocked by rocks aka map pool = shyt,
on top of that OP was talking about the creepmechanic + mapsize. and those are both addressed, the creepmechanic should be changed into hp regen and zergunits should really have same speed on/off creep. as of now its just an annoyance and somekind of handicap/necessity for zerg players not really an advantage if you do spread creep. since: do it and you are on even footing, dont do it and you either loose or have to way outplay the opponent...
|
to all the players who dont play zerg and think creep is an advantage ill try to explain teh problem of creep this way.
think of this. all my units of the zerg are like zombies in all those horror movies like resident evil and what not. now the edge of my creep is that closed door, that my zombies keep ramming their head into because they cant go forward(without my zombies completely losing their mobility) eventually they break 1 door down (i spread my creep slightly further out) but now my zombies are ramming their heads into the next door. now what happens in the movies, because the doors are delaying the zombies the heroes get plenty of time to muster up some weapons and roflcopterpwn the zombies. this is what happens to the zerg  since we cant go off creep without losing our option of retreat we end up sitting their like dumbshit zombies till we can move forwad, yet by that time we are gonna die.
sure that is me over dramatising it but i think i like the zombie analysis
|
terran needs a overhaul in the Bio ball mechanic... marauder should be less powerful.
less hp, less damage and no stim on them.
|
read the whole thing. I honestly didnt think i could take any more balance descussion...but when it is as well executed as this i think i can manage. Excellent post, stands out among the masses of posts as a great read and should be read by every member of blizz. great contribution
|
Creep Mechanic
Its just small maps that not making this mechanic a disaster, the bigger the maps will be the more obvious it would be, that creep is broken( presonally hydra).
The Versatility of the Tech Lab
Its okay with techlabs untill terrans use their barrack labs to build tanks and banshees later...
Either make different labs to infantry and mech or make it that they can use those tech labs but still have to wait building time to apply to new building, not instant swapping.
The Power of the Marauder
Remove stim or make it only move speed bonus for marauder or make it cost like 30-35 hp.
Also think again about the things you nerfed in beta, because those were rush changes when people had no enough time to find counters. Simple example is broodlord, longest tech tree in the game, attack only ground, slow and useless without any support on their own.
And they nerfed its damage, armor and hp, i guess because marines weren't killing them fast enough... Yes it was strong, but for the money you spend on them it SHOULD be strong, and even if it was god damn strong any god damn air unit counter them, so why the hell it cost like Carrier, but not even half as usefull as him. The answer is "because noobs from beta couldnt build 3 vikings to counter them".
|
I think you should play the game some more before posting. Do you seriously want terran to have to spend 35 sec 50/50 on a attachment AND a building just to make units? lol I completely agree that the idea that for reapers you need roaches and they can counter you with out so much as an extra building/attachment but you're asking way too much and this coming from a zerg. I think instead the problem is with zerg's early scouting ability
Edit: Personally on the creep mechanic I think their should be something of an auto cast on the tumors. But make the AI faulty so it's more friendly and inspires manual control to higher players. Cause when learning zerg mid/low diamond this mechanic becomes a crutch rather than a helpful ability.
|
I think the Terran players are way too comfortable with building one tech lab and actually unlocking ALL their units, provided they have a factory + starport. This is what is what I find most frustrating. They build one of each structure (a paltry investment) and with tech lab switching, they can get every single unit in their arsenal. Because of this, they don't have to make a commitment to any type of tech tree.
You have shitty scouting and you've been building the wrong units for the last 5 minutes? No problem, lemme just switch some add-ons and get a response up in ~40 seconds. The reactor/techlab switching just makes it easier for Terran to play catch up really fast if they were outplayed. This is a little frustrating for P and Z players because if they don't actively scout they are punished severely, in all matchups. Whereas for Terran, they really don't get punished badly because of how strong marine/marauder is, and if they need to muster up a response very quickly to something P or Z has been actively preparing for 5+ minutes, they just need to put in the appropriate addons, and voila, problem solved.
I think a good idea is to include a timer for switching techlabs / reactors. Maybe a 5 second detachment / 5 second attachment timer (i was leaning towards 10 seconds for each, though) so that there is a delay in switching around buildings.
|
The Tech Lab point is the closest to legit. It comes out quick, cheap, and allows instate tech switch from Repears to Marauders, two of the most powerful units for early map control.
The rest of the points are Whine.
The Zerg are not supposed to be the "aggressive" race. They are the "infesting" race. Zerg take expansions. The only reason they get the aggro impression is because the 6-pool used to be broken in SC1.
Creep is fine. It makes shit faster. Upgraded Zerglings and Roaches don't need it. Mutalisks don't need it.
The real problem with Zerg is lack of flexibility and difficulty pressuring an opponent with a solid, non-farm wall.
And phrases like "The real only fix to this is to keep creep, but...." is fucking ridiculous. BS phrases like this are an indicator that you're typing this out of frustration. A creative mind could think of a million solutions to any (perceived) problems with creep or any aspect of the game.
The mechanics you have issues with are part of the game design. It's not Brood War, and Blizzard isn't going to make any radical changes to appease Internet rage.
|
On September 02 2010 22:48 Tac-Tics wrote:
The mechanics you have issues with are part of the game design. It's not Brood War, and Blizzard isn't going to make any radical changes to appease Internet rage.
Are you Dustin Browder for such an statements?
|
On September 02 2010 02:19 Arrian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 01:02 OHtRUe wrote:
Creep Mechanic
The number one flaw of the game as it butchers Zerg completely. It permits the supposed "aggressive" race to be completely defensive. It's a mechanic that is a handicap instead of bonus and makes the race who's strengths are supposed to be it's mobility be completely immobile. I honestly see where Blizzard was coming from, but honestly they implemented it terribly. The only time Zerg can be aggressive with the current implementation of creep is when they have a definite advantage over the opponent. You cannot harass or do quick counter attacks with anything that are not speedlings or mutalisks and I'm not even gonna go into Hydras.
The real only fix to this is to keep creep, but instead of mobility bonus it should be HP Regen. This is because it promotes aggressive play and makes creep a place to fall back to after an attack instead of a mandatory TO attack. On creep speed is now the same as off creep speed (can be adjusted for certain units)
I don't understand your argument here at all. It's one thing to say Zerg ought to be faster and another to make some sort of twisted assertion that a speed boost on creep is a flaw(?). It also doesn't make sense to say it's a problem if it permits Zerg to do something else. Honestly, if Zerg was forced to be aggressive all the time, I'd much more easily conclude that that is the flaw than anything else. There may be better ways to play a race, but every option ought to be available. It doesn't help, or make anything more interesting, to limit options. Expanding options is almost always the better choice. As said before, creep doesn't make Zerg immobile, which you seem to be trying to say somehow. It just makes them more mobile elsewhere. Right now, there is hardly any combo more mobile than muta/ling. Hydra roach is a little clumsy, but with speed upgrade on the roaches it's better. Ultras are wayyy faster than they were in BW, and they can actually keep up okay with the rest of your army. Hydras are the lone unit that's exceedingly slow by comparison, and that is something that can be compensated for. By that I mean, I basically don't agree with anything you're saying about Zerg's mobility. In BW, you really couldn't do speedy things with anything other than mutas and lings anyway, so your point about harrassment is a little silly. How many units should Zerg be able to harass with? In what way? Those are important questions. Honestly, too, speed roaches and speed banelings can move really fast compared to some opposing compositions.
I think what he's saying is that Zerg shouldn't just be mobile for defensive purposes, which is all that the game really allows with creep. Many zerg units (specifically, the hydra) are terribly slow off-creep, so a lot of people think removing creep speed boost (or lowering it) and giving all zerg units in general a speed boost would do well.
On September 02 2010 22:43 junemermaid wrote:
I think the Terran players are way too comfortable with building one tech lab and actually unlocking ALL their units, provided they have a factory + starport. This is what is what I find most frustrating. They build one of each structure (a paltry investment) and with tech lab switching, they can get every single unit in their arsenal. Because of this, they don't have to make a commitment to any type of tech tree.
You have shitty scouting and you've been building the wrong units for the last 5 minutes? No problem, lemme just switch some add-ons and get a response up in ~40 seconds. The reactor/techlab switching just makes it easier for Terran to play catch up really fast if they were outplayed. This is a little frustrating for P and Z players because if they don't actively scout they are punished severely, in all matchups. Whereas for Terran, they really don't get punished badly because of how strong marine/marauder is, and if they need to muster up a response very quickly to something P or Z has been actively preparing for 5+ minutes, they just need to put in the appropriate addons, and voila, problem solved.
I think a good idea is to include a timer for switching techlabs / reactors. Maybe a 5 second detachment / 5 second attachment timer (i was leaning towards 10 seconds for each, though) so that there is a delay in switching around buildings.
I think Raelcun's (was it Raelcun?) suggestion for academy tech would work well.
|
Disagree on tech lab. Zerg can techswitch instantly if they only built the building.
|
Am I the only one who thinks it's odd that the Techlab gets bashed for enabling fast unit switches, when terran of all races has the hardest time to reconfigure its unit composition? Especially when it comes from Zergs?
Due to the Barracks/Factory/Starport split, Terrans will have to invest into many new structures and leave old structures unused when switching from bio to air or from mech to bio. Yes, they can recycle the techlab - awesome! Still you are stuck with stuff you don't need and the time you need to transition is really high. Compare that to Zerg, that can actually invest in all unit structures and can reconfigure their army in each production cycle. But the techlab is still teh evil, because it unlocks TWO different units.
The creep is a different beast.. I don't think the problem is the speed bonus, but that it's way easier to combat creep spread than to promote it. So how about the following buff:
As soon as a tumor has covered his maximum area, he goes into a 10 sec cooldown and then grows, gaining +40% hp, increasing the creep area supported by 2 and increasing the cooldown by 10 secs.
This way, over time the creep WILL spread unless they enemy takes the fight deep into the Zerg territory. If that should prove to be insufficient you could rule that a transfuse instantly increases the tumor level by 1.
|
On September 02 2010 02:54 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 02:19 Snowfield wrote:When Terran can tech switch from reapers into marauders INSTANTLY with no punishing factor it is terrible game design. When you can go from a banshee into any air unit you want INSTANTLY Protoss can do the same no? i mean, they can change form stalkers to zealots INSTANTLY and void rays to phoenixes INSTANTLY aswell Good. Then make the tech lab match my cybernetics core costs.
You need only one CC but for Terran you need on every Barracks a Tech Lab and still do you want to have the same cost, huh?
Nice...
|
You guys do remember that u nee a teclab or Reactor vor each unit producing structure? Tec-buildings for Toss and Zerg are build only once...
edit:
damn registration took 2 long
|
On September 02 2010 23:02 synapse wrote:
I think Raelcun's (was it Raelcun?) suggestion for academy tech would work well.
That requires adding an additional building to the game. Adding attachment timers to a building would probably take a few lines of code.
|
On September 02 2010 23:14 Tenebra wrote:
You guys do remember that u nee a teclab or Reactor vor each unit producing structure? Tec-buildings for Toss and Zerg are build only once...
That's not really the huge problem. The bigger problem is the fact that Terrans have the advantage in the early game with the ability to switch reactors and tech labs. In the long run, like you say, it is a huge pain to keep building 50/50 which also take a lot of time. BUT this is very much nill in the early game when Terrans can use this to their full advantage to get Reapers and Banshees and some cutsie unit out very quickly.
Also people keep saying nerf the terran. nerf the terran. Shouldn't we buff rather than nerf? If Terran is too strong, shouldn't we buff the zerg and protoss? Generally more speed/more damage, less time might let you explore more options (again, not all the time, but some times as well)
|
OP brings up a lot of valid points.
My main problem with Zerg is still that their units are too expensive. I miss the cheap hydra which looked completely awesome in large masses.
Bring Hydra back to 1 food and lower cost! For the love of the flying spaghetti monster!
|
On September 02 2010 23:05 Thrombozyt wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks it's odd that the Techlab gets bashed for enabling fast unit switches, when terran of all races has the hardest time to reconfigure its unit composition? Especially when it comes from Zergs?
.
Yes, but it's been proven on TL again and again that zerg noobs are the whiniest people on the planet. Do you remember when they nerfed the roach from being an invincible killing machine that could kill a thor with 2v1 micro into an almost invincible killing machine (they nerfed it again 2 more times)?
-QQZNoob: OH LOL BLIZZ HATE ON Z. ROACH USELESS!! NERF IMMORTALS!!
Terran is OP right now, blizz shouldnt nerf the $**t out of it like som zergs would like to propose.
User was warned for this post
|
There is a reason why every zerg goes Muta/Ling/Bling nearly every game
Yeah it is because most of them underrate Infestors and because Roach upgrades cost too much and are too late in the tech tree. When roaches were grossly overpowered in beta the creep mechanic didn't cause them not to be used. Hydralisks could probably use a rework but they are the only unit that is really hurt by the creep mechanic.
As for Terran, I'm still 99% convinced the major part of the problem is stim. A single upgrade giving 50% movement bonus and 50% damage bonus is just broken. It might have worked in BW but it is game breaking in SC2. Before they do anything else to try to balance the bio ball they need to lower stim first and see how it feels. If you forget to research stim before the first big battle it turns a decisive win into a decisive loss, the effect is just way too large.
|
On September 02 2010 23:05 Thrombozyt wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks it's odd that the Techlab gets bashed for enabling fast unit switches, when terran of all races has the hardest time to reconfigure its unit composition? Especially when it comes from Zergs?
Due to the Barracks/Factory/Starport split, Terrans will have to invest into many new structures and leave old structures unused when switching from bio to air or from mech to bio. Yes, they can recycle the techlab - awesome! Still you are stuck with stuff you don't need and the time you need to transition is really high. Compare that to Zerg, that can actually invest in all unit structures and can reconfigure their army in each production cycle. But the techlab is still teh evil, because it unlocks TWO different units.
The problem with the versatility of the tech lab is during earlier parts of the game. Generally, Terran can have every unit (with exception to the thor + bc) unlocked within 5 minutes in the game, and none of the other races can know what the Terran is going without committing resources purely for scouting (observers or overseers). After figuring out what the Terran is doing, they can then start getting an appropriate counter build going. However, for other races, it often takes time to get the proper counter during which the Terran can do an attack that can end the game outright. Terran doesn't need to scout what the other player is doing. It doesn't matter for them, really, since their 1/1/1 opening can adjust to anything the other races can throw at them within the early game.
So it isn't as broken as I've outlined above, but thats the general core problem of the versatility of the tech labs. It doesn't force the Terran to commit to anything early game while the other races must. Because of the lack of commitment, Terran has a multitude of timing attacks that are all approximately at the same time that are all relatively strong. The other races do not have similar timing attacks because Terran can get a response together rather quickly.
In later stages of the game, yes, Terran is punished severely if the opponent pulls out a tech switch, since as the scale of the game increases, so does the cost for Terran to switch tech trees. The reactor kind of makes up for this delayed response Terran can suffer, but the Terran has to actively scout in the late game for tech surprises. In the early game, however, Terran does not have to worry about anything other races can throw at them.
EDIT: Does this make Terran easier to play? Somewhat. Does it make Terran OP? I don't know, maybe. Maybe not. High level players realized how strong the 1/1/1 openings are and how easy they are to disguise & prevent scouting. This can make TvX very frustrating for the X player. Playing in the dark is really not fun.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
