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Barracks + Tech lab = Gateway + Cybernetics core
Factory + Tech lab = Robotics Facility
Factory + Tech lab + Armory = Robotics Facility + Robotics Bay
There is no difference in teching for Terran for most of the game. For air Terran needs a tech lab for advanced air giving them an extra step over Protoss, they also need a separate building just for air upgrades while Protoss gets theirs out of the cyber core. Protoss has an extra step reaching their T3 ground with the Twilight Council. Those are the only real differences.
The tech lab really isn't part of the problem. You also didn't mention that build times on the basic units are based on having reactors for them. Building a marine from a barracks with a tech lab is inefficient as is building one off a barracks with no reactor because they have increased build times based on the existence of the reactor already.
Also mules aren't some huge advantage. Mules are weaker than chrono boost as a mechanic and if Terran doesn't use mules early they will fall behind economically. The Mules advantage is it allows Terran to sit on one base longer than other races. Every time I play Zerg or Protoss for a while and then play Terran I'm always shocked at just how long it takes Terran to saturate the first base compared to the other races, without the Mule Terran would be in a lot of trouble.
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Protoss has an extra step reaching their T3 ground with the Twilight Council. Those are the only real differences.
Is that a difference though? as terran needs a Ghost Academy for ghosts
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On September 03 2010 01:29 Snowfield wrote:Show nested quote +Protoss has an extra step reaching their T3 ground with the Twilight Council. Those are the only real differences. Is that a difference though? as terran needs a Ghost Academy for ghosts
Well protoss needs a twilight council at the same step as Terran getting a Ghost Academy and then they also need a Templar Archives and/or Dark Temple to build the units. They do have an extra step in there for sure.
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On September 03 2010 01:27 EnderCN wrote:
Barracks + Tech lab = Gateway + Cybernetics core
Factory + Tech lab = Robotics Facility
Factory + Tech lab + Armory = Robotics Facility + Robotics Bay
There is no difference in teching for Terran for most of the game. For air Terran needs a tech lab for advanced air giving them an extra step over Protoss, they also need a separate building just for air upgrades while Protoss gets theirs out of the cyber core. Protoss has an extra step reaching their T3 ground with the Twilight Council. Those are the only real differences.
The tech lab really isn't part of the problem. You also didn't mention that build times on the basic units are based on having reactors for them. Building a marine from a barracks with a tech lab is inefficient as is building one off a barracks with no reactor because they have increased build times based on the existence of the reactor already.
Also mules aren't some huge advantage. Mules are weaker than chrono boost as a mechanic and if Terran doesn't use mules early they will fall behind economically. The Mules advantage is it allows Terran to sit on one base longer than other races. Every time I play Zerg or Protoss for a while and then play Terran I'm always shocked at just how long it takes Terran to saturate the first base compared to the other races, without the Mule Terran would be in a lot of trouble.
A few problems with your comparisons. First, it takes FAR less time to get Barracks+TL than Gate+Core, ditto with Factory+TL versus Robo (especially if you are building the Lab on a Barracks). I will admit that Armory tech is much closer, but not quite at the same level (2 tech structures and 2 unit-producers for Protoss, 2 unit-producers and 1 tech for Terran). Nobody here is so naive to think that late-game balance is messed up. Early-game is the problem. Early on, Terran is able to access so much tech so quickly that it becomes incredibly difficult for the other player to deal with it all.
The TL/Reactor deal is really quite exaggerated here. The "basic units" in this case are Marines (which are just fine being pumped out of several rax), Hellions (which aren't all that critical outside of harass), and Vikings and Medivacs (by which point you should have devoted a unit-producing structure to building a Reactor for). I don't remember anyone complaining about it being too hard to make their Vikings and whatnot, and it isn't even relevant to the early-game problem.
Finally, MULEs are an INCREDIBLE advantage. They allow a Terran player to access something for nothing. A Terran can cut SCVs early and go for extremely heavy aggression and still be able to expand simply because they have extra income from the MULEs. If Protoss wants to be aggressive early, they have to cut worker production significantly and use their Chronoboosts on units or Warp Gate tech, meaning that their aggression has to damage the other player as much as they are damaging themselves. If Zerg wants to be aggressive early, they have to use all their larvae for offensive units, wrecking their income and usually turning things into an all-in play. Thanks to MULEs, Terran has no such limitation. The most significant factor by far, though, is the relative lack of time sensitivity for MULEs. Protoss has to time Chronos to be useful for the unit production and for upgrades; if P misses their timing, then they won't be able to get that time back and will have to spend Chrono on something else that is likely less relevant (compare boosting a WG cooldown to boosting WG tech). Zerg has to time Injections almost perfectly, or risk losing larvae that cannot be recovered bar making another Hatchery or two or spending the energy on the less relevant Creep Tumors or Transfusions. If Terran misses a MULE, then they can just spam them out whenever they please, especially later on when timings aren't as important. There is simply no comparing the mental energy spent on the subjects. Protoss and Zerg are forced to focus intensely on their macro mechanics or risk simply losing right then and there, meaning that Terran is more free to focus on micro and think about gameplay decisions. That difference in mental investment is the main problem of the MULE.
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As much I want SC2 to improve, I don't wanna see BW die
And dont mind my comment, i am Drunk atm and gonna leave korea in four days ;-(
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change tech labs and reactors so they are different for every building so T can not jump in tech imho
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On September 02 2010 02:56 Nightfall.589 wrote:
Given the number of changes people want to make to the game, you'd figure that Zerg only win 30% of their games, rather then the 49.5% they do on ladder.
Hydras moving at stalker speeds off-creep would be insanely overpowered. And I can't imagine you referring to anything else when you want to buff off-creep unit movement speeds.
Creep giving movement speed is a good mechanic. It gives the race a much-needed defensive advantage.
If anything, the game needs more defensive advantages, which would encourage macro-oriented gameplay, instead of one-base all-ins.
Hydra:
Damage: 12(+1)
AtkSpd: 0.83
Range: 5 (6 w/ Upgrade)
HP: 80
Speed: 2.25
Cost: 100/50/2
Tier 2
No Special Abilities
Stalker:
Damage: 10 + 4 vs Armored (+1/+0)
AtkSpd: 1.44
Range: 6
HP: 160
Speed: 2.95
Cost: 125/50/2
Tier 1.5
Can Blink w/ Upgrade
The numbers speak for themselves. When you said "Insanely overpowered" if the speed was equal, you obviously meant to say "balanced" right?
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I agree with most of what you said however the section about creep I couldnt disagree more :\ Zerg can do all those things but most players dont utilize Zerg's tools well, once the games been out longer this won't be a problem but for now people are still learning the race. Zerg is def the hardest race to master and to learn straight up (for most people at least). Once there are solid builds it wont be so bad, but until then we gotta work on making those builds! ^^
I think making the tech lab = the reactor time would be the best fix.
1) It would make tech switching harder for T
2) Terran would not be able to put on as much pressure in the beginning
3) Marauders would come out later and less quantity.
4) Reapers would be delayed so they would not be lethal to Zerg
The problem TvP is Terrans bio and how much they can amass so fast, it just tears P gateway units apart.
ps I wouldnt take advice from decembvrie >_<
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On September 02 2010 23:42 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +The Power of the Marauder
Honestly I think the marauders are an awesome unit and amazing to play with (terran main) but i can admit that they are overpowered in the early game and in certain aspects. First off marauders give free map control for the whole early game and forces protoss to go tier 2 instantly which eliminates FE play for Toss while letting Terran doing anything they want. The second problem is there upgrades which makes marauders into super heroes. Concussive shells disallows any micro from the opponent and punishes skirmishes and harassment. Stim and marauders is just ridiculous in how fast marauders can kill anything armored, how fast they become (lol synergy), and how little drawbacks are there from using it. I'm not gonna even get into marauder drops which are completely stupid (again im a terran main) Just like having to go tier 2 vs hydras in PvZ in Brood war made protoss players unable to fast expand...right? The game's still young, and theres plenty of unexplored builds. stop bitching and work out a solution perhaps?
Well, isn't this because static defense was much better in BW? See an all-in 3hatch hydras and the protoss just mass cannons and fends it off. Cannons are much worse in this game and Marauders will just rip right through them. Not to mention Terran can quickly switch their build to tanks if the protoss mass cannons
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On September 03 2010 02:53 throttled wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 02:56 Nightfall.589 wrote:
Given the number of changes people want to make to the game, you'd figure that Zerg only win 30% of their games, rather then the 49.5% they do on ladder.
Hydras moving at stalker speeds off-creep would be insanely overpowered. And I can't imagine you referring to anything else when you want to buff off-creep unit movement speeds.
Creep giving movement speed is a good mechanic. It gives the race a much-needed defensive advantage.
If anything, the game needs more defensive advantages, which would encourage macro-oriented gameplay, instead of one-base all-ins. Hydra: Damage: 12(+1) AtkSpd: 0.83 Range: 5 (6 w/ Upgrade) HP: 80 Speed: 2.25 Cost: 100/50/2 Tier 2 No Special Abilities Stalker: Damage: 10 + 4 vs Armored (+1/+0) AtkSpd: 1.44 Range: 6 HP: 160 Speed: 2.95 Cost: 125/50/2 Tier 1.5 Can Blink w/ Upgrade The numbers speak for themselves. When you said "Insanely overpowered" if the speed was equal, you obviously meant to say "balanced" right?
Too bad a Hydra already beats a Stalker 1 on 1 due to having twice the DPS.
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On September 03 2010 01:57 blubbdavid wrote:
As much I want SC2 to improve, I don't wanna see BW die
And dont mind my comment, i am Drunk atm and gonna leave korea in four days ;-(
Fight on brotha man.
On September 03 2010 04:11 CookieFactory wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 02:53 throttled wrote:On September 02 2010 02:56 Nightfall.589 wrote:
Given the number of changes people want to make to the game, you'd figure that Zerg only win 30% of their games, rather then the 49.5% they do on ladder.
Hydras moving at stalker speeds off-creep would be insanely overpowered. And I can't imagine you referring to anything else when you want to buff off-creep unit movement speeds.
Creep giving movement speed is a good mechanic. It gives the race a much-needed defensive advantage.
If anything, the game needs more defensive advantages, which would encourage macro-oriented gameplay, instead of one-base all-ins. Hydra: Damage: 12(+1) AtkSpd: 0.83 Range: 5 (6 w/ Upgrade) HP: 80 Speed: 2.25 Cost: 100/50/2 Tier 2 No Special Abilities Stalker: Damage: 10 + 4 vs Armored (+1/+0) AtkSpd: 1.44 Range: 6 HP: 160 Speed: 2.95 Cost: 125/50/2 Tier 1.5 Can Blink w/ Upgrade The numbers speak for themselves. When you said "Insanely overpowered" if the speed was equal, you obviously meant to say "balanced" right? Too bad a Hydra already beats a Stalker 1 on 1 due to having twice the DPS.
CookieFactory too bad you're misinformed, a Hydra and Stalker with no upgrades actually kill each other.
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Wowowow many comments and many things I have to address.
First off creep is a handicap and you cant argue that if you have ever played zerg in BW. When zerg cannot be aggressive at all unless your at a definite advantage is terrible especially considering Zerg is supposed to be the aggressor. Also my change means that units off creep are now the same speed as on creep.
Second off the tech lab is way to versatile and you cannot compare it to other races as Terran has SOOOOO MANY HARD COUNTERS. Also tell me when you can swap a robo bay into a fleet beacon or a spire into a hydra den.
Yes marauders are broken in the early game as they stagnate gameplay and give terran free reign to do whatever they want in the early game.
Theres also alot of ridiculous comments here, but i cant address them individually.
EDIT: Oh forgot to say I didn't write the dynamics section I pasted a part of Saracens article that i linked (I would recommend it btw its a great read)
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On September 03 2010 04:20 RoarMan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 01:57 blubbdavid wrote:
As much I want SC2 to improve, I don't wanna see BW die
And dont mind my comment, i am Drunk atm and gonna leave korea in four days ;-( Fight on brotha man. Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 04:11 CookieFactory wrote:On September 03 2010 02:53 throttled wrote:On September 02 2010 02:56 Nightfall.589 wrote:
Given the number of changes people want to make to the game, you'd figure that Zerg only win 30% of their games, rather then the 49.5% they do on ladder.
Hydras moving at stalker speeds off-creep would be insanely overpowered. And I can't imagine you referring to anything else when you want to buff off-creep unit movement speeds.
Creep giving movement speed is a good mechanic. It gives the race a much-needed defensive advantage.
If anything, the game needs more defensive advantages, which would encourage macro-oriented gameplay, instead of one-base all-ins. Hydra: Damage: 12(+1) AtkSpd: 0.83 Range: 5 (6 w/ Upgrade) HP: 80 Speed: 2.25 Cost: 100/50/2 Tier 2 No Special Abilities Stalker: Damage: 10 + 4 vs Armored (+1/+0) AtkSpd: 1.44 Range: 6 HP: 160 Speed: 2.95 Cost: 125/50/2 Tier 1.5 Can Blink w/ Upgrade The numbers speak for themselves. When you said "Insanely overpowered" if the speed was equal, you obviously meant to say "balanced" right? Too bad a Hydra already beats a Stalker 1 on 1 due to having twice the DPS. CookieFactory too bad you're misinformed, a Hydra and Stalker with no upgrades actually kill each other.
Uh no. Maybe if the stalker got the first shot off.
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On September 03 2010 04:39 OHtRUe wrote:
Wowowow many comments and many things I have to address.
First off creep is a handicap and you cant argue that if you have ever played zerg in BW. When zerg cannot be aggressive at all unless your at a definite advantage is terrible especially considering Zerg is supposed to be the aggressor. Also my change means that units off creep are now the same speed as on creep.
Second off the tech lab is way to versatile and you cannot compare it to other races as Terran has SOOOOO MANY HARD COUNTERS. Also tell me when you can swap a robo bay into a fleet beacon or a spire into a hydra den.
Yes marauders are broken in the early game as they stagnate gameplay and give terran free reign to do whatever they want in the early game.
Theres also alot of ridiculous comments here, but i cant address them individually.
EDIT: Oh forgot to say I didn't write the dynamics section I pasted a part of Saracens article that i linked (I would recommend it btw its a great read)
So people who disagree with you are ridiculous?
You are overrating how much creep is needed for Zerg aggression. The Hydralisk and pre-upgraded roaches depend on it, the rest of the units do not. You also obviously don't understand how the tech lab works from this. I already pointed it out in another post but the Tech lab is only a step in the teching tree for barracks.
Barracks = Gateway
Barracks + TL = GW + cyber core
Factory + TL = robo facility.
Factory + TL + Armory = Robo Facility + Robo bay
Staport + TL = Stargate
Starport + TL + Fusion Core = Stargate + Fleet Beacon.
The Tech lab is not some magical building that lets Terran skip tech, they have basically the same tech tree as everyone else and then the added disadvantage of needing to place tech labs or reactors as well. The only building that gains any advantage from the tech lab is the barracks and since you need one on every single barracks it ends up being a disadvantage by mid game. Terran still has the least forgiving tech switching of any race because they go through the same system as everyone else but also have to juggle tech labs and reactors. This isn't something they could possibly nerf because it isn't an advantage.
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ONe more actual issue affecting gameplay is that there is no indicator of skill in this game yet, diamond doesnt mean anything and i guess there is a lot of diamond who think they know everything about the game just because they are in that league resulting in too much of shittalk in every thread.
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On September 03 2010 05:51 EnderCN wrote:
So people who disagree with you are ridiculous?
You are overrating how much creep is needed for Zerg aggression. The Hydralisk and pre-upgraded roaches depend on it, the rest of the units do not. You also obviously don't understand how the tech lab works from this. I already pointed it out in another post but the Tech lab is only a step in the teching tree for barracks.
Barracks = Gateway
Barracks + TL = GW + cyber core
Factory + TL = robo facility.
Factory + TL + Armory = Robo Facility + Robo bay
Staport + TL = Stargate
Starport + TL + Fusion Core = Stargate + Fleet Beacon.
The Tech lab is not some magical building that lets Terran skip tech, they have basically the same tech tree as everyone else and then the added disadvantage of needing to place tech labs or reactors as well. The only building that gains any advantage from the tech lab is the barracks and since you need one on every single barracks it ends up being a disadvantage by mid game. Terran still has the least forgiving tech switching of any race because they go through the same system as everyone else but also have to juggle tech labs and reactors. This isn't something they could possibly nerf because it isn't an advantage.
barracks +tl =/= GW+ Cyber core, you dont need TL to be able to build factory.
also you cant use cyber core as robo bay or fleet bacon.
The imbalance is in how fast you can get your first thor, or first banshee in game with techlab from barrack to factory.
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On September 02 2010 02:40 DTown wrote:The fact of the matter is that the tech-lab on barracks simultaneously enables very early production at minimal cost of a cliff-jumping extremely mobile unit that owns light, a very high-hp durable tank unit that devastates armored units and buildings, and a cheap all-purpose versatile high-dps unit that can attack ground or air. Relative to what is available to the other races in the early game, this variety is insane.
How this design was allowed to persist all through beta is beyond me. It seems to me like Blizzard could have made their jobs a lot easier by trying to alter this dynamic instead of the nightmare it has been to try and balance around it.
QFT. Terran has such an incredible variety of units... cliffjumping reapers, cloaked banshees, speedy drone-roasting hellions... and that's just their opening. But if you're facing zerg, you know what you're up against. It's ground units every time. Most of them aren't quick, most of them don't hit air, none of them are cloaked, all of them travel around the map on regular terrain.
I honestly don't see how to balance it without major changes. Zerg needs a non-standard unit that can be a real threat and something that takes special care to deal with... and terran needs less of them. In beta, I would have tried something like taking the banshee or the reaper away from terran and giving a comparable unit to zerg.
Without major changes, one big step in the right direction would be to make tech labs and reactors permanent. The unscoutable, nearly-instant, no-cost tech switches make terran so difficult to deal with.
I would also love to see something done with unit sizes and ranges. That tight terran bio ball of marines and marauders can pack so much damage output into a small space, and all of it has the range to hit their targets.
In limited size spaces (which current maps are full of), zerg can fit barely half as many hydras/roaches into an area, compared to how many marines/marauders will fit. And some of the roaches won't be close enough to fire. And the terran army will be stimmed, can walk faster, etc...
When terran units are just so much more cost-effective because of this, something needs to be done. Either make zerg more cost-effective or make stronger counters for it (fungal growth is nice, but so often they just stand there and blast away while getting healed. Maybe make it lower attack rate too?)
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On September 03 2010 05:51 EnderCN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 04:39 OHtRUe wrote:
Wowowow many comments and many things I have to address.
First off creep is a handicap and you cant argue that if you have ever played zerg in BW. When zerg cannot be aggressive at all unless your at a definite advantage is terrible especially considering Zerg is supposed to be the aggressor. Also my change means that units off creep are now the same speed as on creep.
Second off the tech lab is way to versatile and you cannot compare it to other races as Terran has SOOOOO MANY HARD COUNTERS. Also tell me when you can swap a robo bay into a fleet beacon or a spire into a hydra den.
Yes marauders are broken in the early game as they stagnate gameplay and give terran free reign to do whatever they want in the early game.
Theres also alot of ridiculous comments here, but i cant address them individually.
EDIT: Oh forgot to say I didn't write the dynamics section I pasted a part of Saracens article that i linked (I would recommend it btw its a great read) So people who disagree with you are ridiculous? You are overrating how much creep is needed for Zerg aggression. The Hydralisk and pre-upgraded roaches depend on it, the rest of the units do not. You also obviously don't understand how the tech lab works from this. I already pointed it out in another post but the Tech lab is only a step in the teching tree for barracks. Barracks = Gateway Barracks + TL = GW + cyber core Factory + TL = robo facility. Factory + TL + Armory = Robo Facility + Robo bay Staport + TL = Stargate Starport + TL + Fusion Core = Stargate + Fleet Beacon. The Tech lab is not some magical building that lets Terran skip tech, they have basically the same tech tree as everyone else and then the added disadvantage of needing to place tech labs or reactors as well. The only building that gains any advantage from the tech lab is the barracks and since you need one on every single barracks it ends up being a disadvantage by mid game. Terran still has the least forgiving tech switching of any race because they go through the same system as everyone else but also have to juggle tech labs and reactors. This isn't something they could possibly nerf because it isn't an advantage.
No people who have no clue what they're talking about and make stupid comments with no argument are ridiculous.
Oh and for that unit list you forgot ultralisks and infestors which makes pretty much every ground unit a bitch to micro off creep instead of zerglings, its also impossible to retreat without losing the majority of your forces if your playing cross map as well.
Uhhh you kinda proved my point in your post even though you didn't notice. You can swap tech labs to circumvent tech and transition in an instant. Also saying that the 25 second tech lab build time is lengthy and disadvantageous is BS especially if you have APM you can use a spare factory to make tech labs and reactors in the mean time. Also there tech tree is pretty much a production building with a 25 second wait OR a production building that can be instantly swapped
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Uhhh you kinda proved my point in your post even though you didn't notice. You can swap tech labs to circumvent tech and transition in an instant.t.
No I didn't. I showed just the opposite.
If a Protoss player wants to get out a colossus and he only has gateway and cybernetics core built he has to build a robo facility and a robo bay. If a Terran payer wants to get out a thor and he has barracks and tech lab built he has to build a factory and an armory and then either build a tech lab as well or swap out a pre-existing tech lab. The tech lab is an EXTRA step. If they completely removed the tech lab and just let Terran build all of their units without it they still would need the same number of buildings as a protoss for everything except the Barracks. I get what you are saying somewhat though i guess, if they removed the tech lab completely Terran might tech too fast because they wouldn't have that cyber core building they need between T1 and T2. That at least makes some sense. Tech labs as a whole are a disadvantage but the way the system works might make Terran transitions to T2 and T3 a little faster than they should be.
you cant use cyber core as robo bay or fleet bacon
You can't use a tech lab as an armory or fusion core, it is absolutely no different... This is not a hard concept. The tech lab is an extra layer of tech that Terran has to put on buildings to do what other races can do normally.
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EPT
