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On September 09 2010 17:05 ghermination wrote:
I would just like to chime in as a Protoss player.
Without walling in the early game would be literally impossible. The Zerg can have 6-12 lings at your ramp by the time you have 1 zealot, with one warping in (if you 12 gated) or two if you 10 gated. You can fend the zerglings off at this point with a wall, but without one it would just be get zerglings -> a move -> win.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that walls should be removed, it's a classic element from BW and like you said, both terran and protoss would be at a huge disadvantage without it. What is being suggested is that zerg needs a better way to put pressure on the wall so that the opponent can't simply ignore the wall and tech up.
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On September 09 2010 10:12 Angra wrote:
The reason pro BW players don't wall in as much as you see in SC2 against zerg is because they're able to handle any kind of ling all-ins and what have you without the walling. It's a lot easier to plug chokes in BW with units, and it's a bit more difficult to handle without a wall in SC2 because of how much faster lings are and how good they are at auto-surrounding, at least in the early game.
Not to mention, you could block ramps with only 2 zealots/marines/SCVs in BW, and it's impossible to do that in SC2, hence why walling is seen so much more.
I really don't think walling is any reason at all for why zerg is considered "underpowered" currently.
EDIT: Zerg didn't have tier 1 ranged units in BW either. Protoss didn't either, and they don't in SC2 as well.
tier 1 = hatchery. With no lair you could make the ranged unit hydralisks. It's harder to classify dragoons to a certain tire but they were a HUGE early threat to terrans walling
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On September 09 2010 17:03 LuciferSC wrote:
The game is fine as it is.
For one, you absolutely cannot base the balance of the game on the casual players.
Face it, SC is a competitive game, it's only natural to base the balance on the pro-gamers and have the rest learn from them and get better.
For two, Zerg never was and is not supposed to be the aggressor throughout the game.
Even in TvZ in BW, terran always had a window for timed attack with rines and medics before spire finishes. You guys are nagging about the wrong point.
Yea, they had a timed attack. And this timed attack can easily be stopped by creep colonies being laid down before hand + speedlings. It's almost to the point that most Terran players don't even bother. Mutas are usually the first hand encounters in TvZ. Zerg is the aggressor for most of the part until Terran gets Science Vessel.
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Alot of idiocy in this thread. Races cannot be identical (and indeed would be boring if they were). T and P can be more offensive than Z early on, but this is matched by Z generally being able to macro up easier.
This is actually where the problem with 5 rax reaper comes in - that terran can very safely expand whilst being aggressive, meaning even near-perfect defense often still leads to an economic advantage.
The races play differently - if you want to play aggressive, you might want to swap. Because Z will never be able to T1 harrass like you wish.
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wait... wait... wait a minute...
so being able to force terran to wall in with all his units and keep him in his base so you can do whatever you want all over the map just because you have 6 zerglings is not considered as being aggressive?
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I think the problem is that zerg units are slow as fuck off-creep. I get frustrated seeing hydras run across the map like a bunch of retards.
In BW all zerg-units were significantly faster than their counterparts which allowed for nice harras and surrounds.
Now if you want to surround, it's impossible. That's partly the fault of the maps too but zergspeed is lame nowadays.
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On September 09 2010 17:22 David Dark wrote:
wait... wait... wait a minute...
so being able to force terran to wall in with all his units and keep him in his base so you can do whatever you want all over the map just because you have 6 zerglings is not considered as being aggressive?
Aggressive and Containment are two very different things. Aggressive is putting pressure on your opponent into holding off an attack. Containment is preventing your opponent from breaking out of their base. And let's be honest.. 6 Ling containment is hardly anything.
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On September 09 2010 17:22 David Dark wrote:
wait... wait... wait a minute...
so being able to force terran to wall in with all his units and keep him in his base so you can do whatever you want all over the map just because you have 6 zerglings is not considered as being aggressive?
priceless.....
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what? zerg early agression and control of game flow non existant? I don't believe this is correct. you should have watched the Dimaga Kiwikaki showmatch today. Scrap Station, specifically, where dimaga absolutely controlled the game with incredible nydus play.
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On September 09 2010 17:33 whiteguycash wrote:
what? zerg early agression and control of game flow non existant? I don't believe this is correct. you should have watched the Dimaga Kiwikaki showmatch today. Scrap Station, specifically, where dimaga absolutely controlled the game with incredible nydus play.
That's awesome, but nydus is hardly early agression.
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On September 09 2010 09:49 RavenNevermore wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it. Very constructive. I do play the game, and I adapt to what I'm given, however I think the lack of ability to be agressive early is really hurting the zerg as a race.
Well maybe you might want to try to be VERY DEFENSIVE instead of trying the impossible? Protoss cant really do much either until they have built several Gateways and Terrans need their addons to really be aggressive on all their production buildings as well. The thing that hurts Zerg is the weakness of Zerglings - Zealots kill them easier than in BW and both Reapers and Hellions deal extra damage - and the need to constantly replace the lost units (plus some more, since there will be more aggressors coming). This is compensated by the Queens spawn larvae ability and thus an easier time to get larvae ... or is it really? Sure you can get lots of Zerglings, but if they die en masse isnt that wasted resources?
Instead of getting a horde of Zerglings you might want to try Spine Crawlers and Queens as defensive units against the initial harrassment. Sure you cant chase the opponents to their base, but we are already agreeing that there is no real point to it due to the wall ins. One of the real weaknesses of Zerglings is the fact that they are MELEE units and thus have a severe disadvantage against the two super mobile Terran harrassment units. A Spine Crawler has range 7 and can cover a big area with its ranged attack, so to me it seems the intelligent alternative to defending your base. The only thing you really need is to protect your workers until you have the tech you want to go out and be aggressive. To achieve this goal you can even skip the expansion, Zergling speed or maybe even delay the first Queen if you need to get to lair super fast. This is the critical thing IMO, because lair tech allows your Overlords to dump creep wherever you need it, Creep Tumors are slow and usually are targeted by early aggression. Being able to cover ramps and cliffs with Spine Crawlers is essential. The key point is not to build too few Spine Crawlers ...
A mineral saved is a mineral mined.
Dont waste minerals on super weak Zerglings which you will have to reproduce constantly to keep up with the pressure, that wastes the minerals AND the larvae. With "more enduring defenses" you can devote more of your larvae to becoming Drones for a better economy. You could even delay lair tech and build a second Hatchery in your main first at a critical position to place Spine Crawlers. This way you ....
- can skip gas (= wayy more minerals)
- do not need as much larvae for defense, so you might even skip a Spawn Larvae cycle to save mana (this might end up in a TON of creep tumors once the initial harrassment stops, so it will help you anyways)
- get more Queens (= more healing for your Spine Crawlers and Queens) out and
- will saturate your future expansions MUCH faster when you finally do expand due to an excess of larvae.
As a Protoss counterversion to this I would suggest watching Day9 daily 175, where Adel beat Huk by NOT getting the second Gas. Just try sticking with "heavy hitter units" until you really need the Gas.
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On September 09 2010 12:31 Adeny wrote:
Wait since when was zerg ever aggressive? Zerg was definately the most passive in brood war.
As a disclaimer I'm not counting old style brood war, because while they may not have been playing wrongly, there's probably a reason they stopped using those builds.
ZvZ: Well, let's not mention this abomination of a match up. We're comparing races anyways.
ZvT: Sunken and drone while giving away map control, use mutas to buy time for lurkers, then use lurkers to stall and buy more time for defilers. Then use defilers to buy more time for ultralisks then attack.
ZvP: 5 hatcheries before your first attack unit (scourge hardly count).
It's just the way zerg works because of larvae and how you can't make drones and attack units at the same time to the extent other races can. If you can catch a break and don't have to defend for a period of time, the less risky option will be droning, given that you have the experience to know how much to drone. So while the harassing shennanigans might look cute, the goal of them is just more time.
You've obviously never seen Kwanro play or a good third of Jaedong's games.
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As a Z player, I think wall-in by P and T players is fine. Without wall-ins, thanks to spawn larvae mechanics, Z would be able to overrun T and P easily with a simple speedling-all-in build. The problem with wall-in is it denies scouting. Give Z some early-game scouting abilities, and it will be fine imo.
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On September 09 2010 14:26 Mortician wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 09:49 RavenNevermore wrote:On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it. Very constructive. I do play the game, and I adapt to what I'm given, however I think the lack of ability to be agressive early is really hurting the zerg as a race. Zergs can't be agressive in BW as well untill the opponent moves out, your point being?
You obviously haven't seen Kwanro play or some of Jaedong's games either.
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i kind of disagree...
My problem is that when i play kind of a DIMAGA style (as could be seen vs kiwikaki yesterday) aka 1 base 2 base innovative rushes with banelings / burrowed roaches / muta rushes and baneling breaches i win a lot of games.
I was a 1000 diamond zerg player, always looking for a flaw in the opponents strategy and exploiting it to the fullest. Then i changed my mind and said to myself that i would never learn this game with this "cheesy" kind of play and started to go idra style with solid macro every game, no cheese at all.
i dropped 250 points in the ladder and this has many different reasons:
1. Enemies stay passive, take 1 expo after another while guarding with their big ball of units, sometimes they move out to fake an attack to force me to make units.
2. Once im on 3 bases im kind of forced to tech to t3 to make broodlords / ultras to be able to compensate with the AOE that rapes my units (storm, tanks, collosi).
3. Especially P has easy mode map control and im forced to hide expoes which are eventually scouted and sniped. Also the guy with the mapcontrol decides when and where the battles take place, which is 99% small chokes where my units cannot surround.
4. Ultras are kind of bad and take forever to make. When my enemy sees the ultra go down (which he can scout so easily) he will timing attack me knowing im probably broke and havent got lots of units because i just q'ed 5-6 ultras. The Ultras can be disabled by sending units to block it (just like u would do in DoTa by walking in front of creeps with the hero so they cant go by and will go left and right instead) The Ultra cannot really attack and is raped by tons of MMM dps.
this post makes me so sad, i <3 zerg.
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On September 09 2010 17:58 AT_Tack wrote:
4. Ultras are kind of bad and take forever to make. When my enemy sees the ultra go down (which he can scout so easily) he will timing attack me knowing im probably broke and havent got lots of units because i just q'ed 5-6 ultras. The Ultras can be disabled by sending units to block it (just like u would do in DoTa by walking in front of creeps with the hero so they cant go by and will go left and right instead) The Ultra cannot really attack and is raped by tons of MMM dps.
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hahahah. impressive insight man.
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On September 09 2010 17:38 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 09:49 RavenNevermore wrote:On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it. Very constructive. I do play the game, and I adapt to what I'm given, however I think the lack of ability to be agressive early is really hurting the zerg as a race. Well maybe you might want to try to be VERY DEFENSIVE instead of trying the impossible? Protoss cant really do much either until they have built several Gateways and Terrans need their addons to really be aggressive on all their production buildings as well. The thing that hurts Zerg is the weakness of Zerglings - Zealots kill them easier than in BW and both Reapers and Hellions deal extra damage - and the need to constantly replace the lost units (plus some more, since there will be more aggressors coming). This is compensated by the Queens spawn larvae ability and thus an easier time to get larvae ... or is it really? Sure you can get lots of Zerglings, but if they die en masse isnt that wasted resources? Instead of getting a horde of Zerglings you might want to try Spine Crawlers and Queens as defensive units against the initial harrassment. Sure you cant chase the opponents to their base, but we are already agreeing that there is no real point to it due to the wall ins. One of the real weaknesses of Zerglings is the fact that they are MELEE units and thus have a severe disadvantage against the two super mobile Terran harrassment units. A Spine Crawler has range 7 and can cover a big area with its ranged attack, so to me it seems the intelligent alternative to defending your base. The only thing you really need is to protect your workers until you have the tech you want to go out and be aggressive. To achieve this goal you can even skip the expansion, Zergling speed or maybe even delay the first Queen if you need to get to lair super fast. This is the critical thing IMO, because lair tech allows your Overlords to dump creep wherever you need it, Creep Tumors are slow and usually are targeted by early aggression. Being able to cover ramps and cliffs with Spine Crawlers is essential. The key point is not to build too few Spine Crawlers ... A mineral saved is a mineral mined. Dont waste minerals on super weak Zerglings which you will have to reproduce constantly to keep up with the pressure, that wastes the minerals AND the larvae. With "more enduring defenses" you can devote more of your larvae to becoming Drones for a better economy. You could even delay lair tech and build a second Hatchery in your main first at a critical position to place Spine Crawlers. This way you .... - can skip gas (= wayy more minerals) - do not need as much larvae for defense, so you might even skip a Spawn Larvae cycle to save mana (this might end up in a TON of creep tumors once the initial harrassment stops, so it will help you anyways) - get more Queens (= more healing for your Spine Crawlers and Queens) out and - will saturate your future expansions MUCH faster when you finally do expand due to an excess of larvae. As a Protoss counterversion to this I would suggest watching Day9 daily 175, where Adel beat Huk by NOT getting the second Gas. Just try sticking with "heavy hitter units" until you really need the Gas.
Interesting ideas, but I doubt it would work. Without lings, the T or P would just get a fast expo and now you as a zerg would be forced to double-expand to keep up, which is going to be really hard if you spent the early game building spine crawlers and queens. Zerg simply isn't a turtling race, it's an aggressive race without good early aggression.
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On September 09 2010 17:38 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 09:49 RavenNevermore wrote:On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it. Very constructive. I do play the game, and I adapt to what I'm given, however I think the lack of ability to be agressive early is really hurting the zerg as a race. Well maybe you might want to try to be VERY DEFENSIVE instead of trying the impossible? Protoss cant really do much either until they have built several Gateways and Terrans need their addons to really be aggressive on all their production buildings as well. The thing that hurts Zerg is the weakness of Zerglings - Zealots kill them easier than in BW and both Reapers and Hellions deal extra damage - and the need to constantly replace the lost units (plus some more, since there will be more aggressors coming). This is compensated by the Queens spawn larvae ability and thus an easier time to get larvae ... or is it really? Sure you can get lots of Zerglings, but if they die en masse isnt that wasted resources? Instead of getting a horde of Zerglings you might want to try Spine Crawlers and Queens as defensive units against the initial harrassment. Sure you cant chase the opponents to their base, but we are already agreeing that there is no real point to it due to the wall ins. One of the real weaknesses of Zerglings is the fact that they are MELEE units and thus have a severe disadvantage against the two super mobile Terran harrassment units. A Spine Crawler has range 7 and can cover a big area with its ranged attack, so to me it seems the intelligent alternative to defending your base. The only thing you really need is to protect your workers until you have the tech you want to go out and be aggressive. To achieve this goal you can even skip the expansion, Zergling speed or maybe even delay the first Queen if you need to get to lair super fast. This is the critical thing IMO, because lair tech allows your Overlords to dump creep wherever you need it, Creep Tumors are slow and usually are targeted by early aggression. Being able to cover ramps and cliffs with Spine Crawlers is essential. The key point is not to build too few Spine Crawlers ... A mineral saved is a mineral mined. Dont waste minerals on super weak Zerglings which you will have to reproduce constantly to keep up with the pressure, that wastes the minerals AND the larvae. With "more enduring defenses" you can devote more of your larvae to becoming Drones for a better economy. You could even delay lair tech and build a second Hatchery in your main first at a critical position to place Spine Crawlers. This way you .... - can skip gas (= wayy more minerals) - do not need as much larvae for defense, so you might even skip a Spawn Larvae cycle to save mana (this might end up in a TON of creep tumors once the initial harrassment stops, so it will help you anyways) - get more Queens (= more healing for your Spine Crawlers and Queens) out and - will saturate your future expansions MUCH faster when you finally do expand due to an excess of larvae. As a Protoss counterversion to this I would suggest watching Day9 daily 175, where Adel beat Huk by NOT getting the second Gas. Just try sticking with "heavy hitter units" until you really need the Gas.
first.
protoss can have 5 zealots at your base by 5 minutes. thats with only 2 gates. not several like you suggest protoss need.
Terran can have a reaper at your base in about 3-4 minutes and another 2 a minute later using only 1 barracks. sure they need their addon, but it only takes 25 seconds to build one.
second.
queens and spines CURRENTLY (subject to change after patch) cannot defend against reapers.
1 spine and 1 queen will die to 10 reapers without kill any reapers
2 spine and 1 queen will kill maybe 1-2 of those reapers
3 spine and 1 queen will kill half of those reapers.
however having 3 spines at your expo and main is not viable. thats 150 minerals each spine. 50 seconds each spine. in fact if a T player see's you investing too much into spines, he take the economic lead remarkably easier. the reason zerglings are used instead of spines, is because it forces the reapers to retreat, attempting to buy much needed time to tech to mutas to thwart the reapers.
third
skipping a queen and zergling speed and hard teching to lair without an expansion like you suggest against reapers, will lose you the game almost all the time. so during the time you are teching to lair, means no queen during that time. meaning limited larva because no larva injection. and well you'll just get rolled on. and you say dont build too few spines. it takes 3+ to deter a pack of 10 reapers without a queen or the speed lings support your suggesting we should skip. thats 450 minerals and 3 larva. with the limited income from only one base like you suggest we should do this is not viable. sure you will deter the reapers for maybe 30 seconds at most, during which the terran player will have his expo up and twice the income of you. meaning you'll lose to any mid game push he makes.
fourth
skipping lair and building a second hatch in main.... thats 300 minerals and takes nearly 2 minutes to build. and skipping gas means even later lair, meaning any sort of banshee harass with cloak. will end the game then and there. so with your second hatch idea thats 800 minerals im wasting on defense (1 hatch 3 spines 4 drones) that could be 32 lings, which is a better way to defend against reapers then your suggestions.
theres nothing wrong with your ideas, im just pointing out that they are not viable.
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i have to admit i skiped most of the thread so my reply is directed at the OP:
i agree that walling in limits zergs early agression hard.
but the sad thing is that when toss or terran dont wallin - they lose!
every game i scout an nonwalled T or P base ill just mass zerglings once queen larva kick in. when speed is done there is aboslutly nothing they can do. just run into their base and destroy their mineral line.
in my opinion the wallin itself isnt the problem but the lack of range t1 is.
the roach itself is quite a good unit but the extrem slow movementspeed off creep hurts a lot. at the time you have enough roaches at the enemys wall to call it aggression your opponent will be able to have either stalker or marauder -.-
still i think zerg could be a bit more aggressive early on if the roach would be used more.
i played a lot of interesting games the last days where i focused on mostly speedlings with just a handfull of roaches(3-4) and early aggression.
it works quite well but you walk a thin line between early aggression/allin because you obvious have to cut ecco and if you dont get the balance right between sling/roach/drones you end up behind either in army or eco.
overall i think its too early to judge if zerg early aggression is really limited or if we just didnt play enough to find the right timings/unitcomps
Zira
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On September 09 2010 11:22 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 11:14 Alexstrasas wrote:n Starcraft 2, any player who doesn't wall in versus a Zerg is throwing away a very major advantage. This allows the enemy player to:
-Dictate the pace of the game
-Harass and Macro with near impunity
-Speed Tech to Tier 3
-Deny Scouting easily This is just more whine but with a good looking structure and some screenshots. What happens on blistering sands if a terran isnt watching the backdoor rocks and the zerg breaks them and enters the base? This is what would happen every game if you were not able to wall off. You obviously have no ideia what you are talking about, playing vs a zerg without a wall doesnt work. Also while we are walling off zergs are building a free expansion so get a grip and stop crying. Also these QQ about terran harass are rediclous. You need to do serious damage to the zerg on the first 10 minutes otherwise there is going to be fucken mutas everywere. Its complelty mind boggling how zergs can whine yet have this rediclous unit that will basicly make you stay inside your own base or risk losing it, while they take all available expos on the map. The big difference between early harass (reaper/helion) and mid game harass with muta is that with the free expo you just need to survive for 10 minute and your good, while with muta harass your fucked because you need to survive AND get a 3rd expand wich you cant. And seriously the reaper thing, its soo last month, most high level players are fending it off on a regular basis, so y´all should dry the tears and try to catch up. bigtime-FAIL. u like bronze or what? Nothing u wrote makes sense...
You are like 12 years old? Yeah man only bronze make mutas. The fuck is wrong with you? Stay away from the souce
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EPT
