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On September 09 2010 09:53 BadWithNames wrote:
Wall not common in broodwar? What are you smoking? People put walls everywhere, pylon walls, forge pylong walls, depot rax walls, factory rax walls, gateway zealot walls. Pro brood war has more walls than china.
a 5 or range unit to threaten walls....why don't you just park some lings outside the wall and power drones and tech while you wait for him to come out, you know, like good zergs do.
While having no clue what he's doing and then being surprised when he pushes with <insert 1 of 1028 viable T pushes>. Zergs can NOT put on early aggression without going all in, no matter what you say you can't deny this is 'imbalanced', and there should be changed something in the t1/t2 techtree.
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On September 09 2010 10:11 berzerger wrote:
%100 agreed to OP.
zerg early aggresion is a joke compared to other races. (this comes from watching pro-games not my level of play)
are you kidding me?
the mere fact that zerg early aggression can be game-deciding is the reason for T/P-walling-in; walling in always leads to a slightly more crippled economy and makes the base harder to defend against air-harass; but the danger of a zerg-run-by to the mineral-line is just too big; if you give zergs t1 range-units then there's basicly nothing that prevents them from sniping off buildings that create the wall-in; so what do you suggest then? every T/P can either let zerglings run wild in his base or accept the fact that he is supposed to lose some buildings that are being sniped?
since zerg started to realize how strong roaches are vs zealots I've hardly seen any competent zerg lose to early 2-gate-zealot-pressure....and with ZvT reapers are a MUCH bigger problem that basicly screws up any form of "normal" play
do zerg-players really believe that we all "love" to wall in? I would gladly stop walling in if my opponent promises that he will never run zerglings into my probes, lol
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On September 09 2010 23:17 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 10:11 berzerger wrote:
%100 agreed to OP.
zerg early aggresion is a joke compared to other races. (this comes from watching pro-games not my level of play) are you kidding me? the mere fact that zerg early aggression can be game-deciding is the reason for T/P-walling-in; walling in always leads to a slightly more crippled economy and makes the base harder to defend against air-harass; but the danger of a zerg-run-by to the mineral-line is just too big; if you give zergs t1 range-units then there's basicly nothing that prevents them from sniping off buildings that create the wall-in; so what do you suggest then? every T/P can either let zerglings run wild in his base or accept the fact that he is supposed to lose some buildings that are being sniped? since zerg started to realize how strong roaches are vs zealots I've hardly seen any competent zerg lose to early 2-gate-zealot-pressure....and with ZvT reapers are a MUCH bigger problem that basicly screws up any form of "normal" play do zerg-players really believe that we all "love" to wall in? I would gladly stop walling in if my opponent promises that he will never run zerglings into my probes, lol
You never loses to 2gate pressure alone, it just fucks your economy so bad while protoss can transition fine after it.
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Right now early Zerg aggression seems to be nonexistent. Why? The only form of early harrassment is to 6-pool and rush the opponent while he is still building his wall or before the Tech Lab is finished. That would delay Reapers and could actually keep Zealots in the Protoss base for some time. Just build 6 Zerglings (maybe 4 would suffice?) and then get all Drones. That way the Terran / Protoss would be on the defensive and spending time to chase after the Zerglings instead of them harrassing the Zerg. No idea if the timing of this would work on most maps, but it seems to be the only way to harrass early. Everything else (burrowed Roaches, Mutalisks, Baneling drops, ...) needs quite a lot of tech.
/wtb sixpool in GSL
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We know now that against most competant players, the earliest form of agression is mutalisk harass.
Except baneling bust is a viable strategy from bronze to pro tournaments. It is an all in, and it is risky, but its far from unviable.
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On September 09 2010 10:10 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 10:07 Subversion wrote:
i agree that zergs are a little more passive sometimes, but i dont think we can get rid of the wall-in...
i think there are plenty of aggressive ways for zerg to still be aggressive Let me know what those are when you have thought about it. I can't think of anything truly viable pre-lair besides 5RR which is still a gimmick and by viable I mean something that doesn't leave you at an insurmountable disadvantage if it fails...early aggression =/= all in
I''ve been working on something, i know it's technically not pre lair, but it uses roaches, and rushes a lair to get creep spread from ovvies against protoss, so far it wrecks 2 gate like no other, wrecks any tech rush (robo, stargate, templar tech) but 4 gate it's kind of a failing technique. it's alot less gimmicky than the 5RR because it gets an expo out and techs, but my timings are still off and it's still being optimized.
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On September 10 2010 00:37 Half wrote:Show nested quote +We know now that against most competant players, the earliest form of agression is mutalisk harass. Except baneling bust is a viable strategy from bronze to pro tournaments. It is an all in, and it is risky, but its far from unviable.
if you use baneling busts as a counter attack strategy they cease to be all ins and continue to be just as effective.
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On September 09 2010 09:42 Two_DoWn wrote:
In broodwar wallins were fairly common in tvz, and if you didnt know how to wall in as a protoss in pvz, you were going to lose. So i dont think that the ability to stop ling runbys is what is hurting tier 1 zerg. Besides, the roach is a tier 1.5 unit just like the hydra was in broodwar, and is also ranged.
edit: the more i think about it, the more that im starting to believe that tier 1 zerg isnt hurting nearly as badly as you seem to believe it is.
does the roach have the same range as the hydra had in brood war? does it have a range upgrade? is it AA? can it upgrade speed in T1?
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Im Zerg.
I dont think the Wallin is the problem, its the units behind and in front of the wall.
Protoss Wallin isnt nearly that much of a problem, as it is with Terrans Walls. Especially in the beginning Protoss Walls with melee units, if u want to pressure early its okay to do with roaches.
I agree that pressuring a Terran early without ALLIN Baneling bust is nearly impossible.
The Problem is the that we only have the shortrange, which prevents a good bust and even if u bust u can only send lings effectivly, because Roaches reinforcments are to slow at that time.
The solution would be, as it would be for many problems Zerg has, to switch Hydra and Roach in techposition and strength
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On September 09 2010 17:22 David Dark wrote:
wait... wait... wait a minute...
so being able to force terran to wall in with all his units and keep him in his base so you can do whatever you want all over the map just because you have 6 zerglings is not considered as being aggressive?
no it is not.
the reason for this is T needs no expansion at all to kill a 3 baseing Zerg.
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If you give zerg a ranged unit to assault the wall from a distance, the Terran has to come out to fend of the aggression, correct?
If the marines move out, speedlings will rape them, then the scv's and then your mother. In BW you had the Firebat to deal with zerglings. Hellions just don't come fast enough. If you get roaches (ranged) I have the counter ready for your zerglings and can move out. If you bring a ranged unit to T1, you have to give T something that doesn't get roflstomped by zerglings early on in the open, and the game isn't balanced already.
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On September 10 2010 01:01 Helmet EU wrote:
If you give zerg a ranged unit to assault the wall from a distance, the Terran has to come out to fend of the aggression, correct?
If the marines move out, speedlings will rape them, then the scv's and then your mother. In BW you had the Firebat to deal with zerglings. Hellions just don't come fast enough. If you get roaches (ranged) I have the counter ready for your zerglings and can move out. If you bring a ranged unit to T1, you have to give T something that doesn't get roflstomped by zerglings early on in the open, and the game isn't balanced already.
I think you're forgetting about those guys on jetpacks that stomp lings and roaches off creep and zerg buildings. Forgot what they were called, though...
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Instead of a cliffjumping unit for zerg (which obviously won't happen unit HotS perhaps), how about burrowed roaches being able to claw their way through cliffs. Or if that is overpowered, just under buildings. It would still take lairtech with at least two upgrades (burrow + tunneling claws)... definitely not OPed (easily countered by a turret near the wall).
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1) Zerg agression early game is limited.
2) It is not the problem that there is no 5-range unit in t1 for zerg. In tvz the terran will just bunker behind the wall and all ranged unit threat is nulified. In pvz protoss has forcefield threat so you cant bust his ramp so easily even with ranged units. The problem is that zergs cannot wall in themselves which leads early game agression very much one sided.
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On September 09 2010 10:20 TyrantPotato wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 10:13 tok wrote:
I recently switched back to zerg after playing terran/random during launch, and zerg in beta. I got knocked down from plat to gold after only 1 day of ladder only winning 4/14 games. The sad thing is the opponent can build 1 unit the entire game and still win, and theres no way to scout the enemies base once they get their first unit out. thats more of an example of your lack of skill with the zerg race rather then an example of how underpowered zerg is. despite zerg having its problems, losing to an army made of only 1 type of unit, means you obvoiusly dont understand how to combat simple army compositions with the zerg units.
Not necessarily. If he's losing to ridiculous compositions, I'd assume that his macro (and not his own correct composition) is at fault. Also, scouting is part of Zerg macro decisions (do I make drones now?), although that's generally untrue for P and T (spam workers).
Furthermore, if he spent the beta playing Zerg, it's not plausible that he doesn't understand which unit to use in which situation (assuming that his "lack of skill" with the Zerg race, as you put it, was due to misunderstanding how to combat simple army compositions). If he lacked the skill to play Zerg at the platinum level, although he does possess the skill to play Terran at that level (and he's claimed he's familiar with the mechanics of both races), then I think this DOES say something about how Zerg plays in SC2.
I'm not claiming they're underpowered (or balanced, for that matter, because I'm just a diamond player -- what do I know?). I'm just saying that too many people dismiss anecdotal evidence as worthless when the main issue with Zerg is that it's been largely unpopular since release -- and "unpopularity" is about as subjective and nebulous as an anecdote.
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am I the only one that finds marine balls incredibly difficult to deal with?
I had a game where he did a marine tank push, and I had ling/bling/muta. He moved right up to my base, and I surrouned from 3 sides, killing about half of his marines with blings (tank shots really decimated my bling numbers) and sniped all his tanks with my mutas. problem was, those 15ish marines left over were unkillable. I kept spamming lings at him, but they just evaporated. as he was in my base I really didn't have the time to mass up more lings in 2 larvae cycles, same thing with making banelings.
I fell in SC1 nearly equal numbers if zerglings were much better vs marines. now these left over marines can cause real problems
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On September 10 2010 03:09 mathemagician1986 wrote:
am I the only one that finds marine balls incredibly difficult to deal with?
I had a game where he did a marine tank push, and I had ling/bling/muta. He moved right up to my base, and I surrouned from 3 sides, killing about half of his marines with blings (tank shots really decimated my bling numbers) and sniped all his tanks with my mutas. problem was, those 15ish marines left over were unkillable. I kept spamming lings at him, but they just evaporated. as he was in my base I really didn't have the time to mass up more lings in 2 larvae cycles, same thing with making banelings.
I fell in SC1 nearly equal numbers if zerglings were much better vs marines. now these left over marines can cause real problems
When they go marines/tank, u really should try to baneling carpet bomb them istead of the normal ground way.
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On September 10 2010 03:11 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 03:09 mathemagician1986 wrote:
am I the only one that finds marine balls incredibly difficult to deal with?
I had a game where he did a marine tank push, and I had ling/bling/muta. He moved right up to my base, and I surrouned from 3 sides, killing about half of his marines with blings (tank shots really decimated my bling numbers) and sniped all his tanks with my mutas. problem was, those 15ish marines left over were unkillable. I kept spamming lings at him, but they just evaporated. as he was in my base I really didn't have the time to mass up more lings in 2 larvae cycles, same thing with making banelings.
I fell in SC1 nearly equal numbers if zerglings were much better vs marines. now these left over marines can cause real problems When they go marines/tank, u really should try to baneling carpet bomb them istead of the normal ground way.
good idea, but I don't really like spending all that gas on OL drop/speed so early. I'll have to try it though!
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On September 09 2010 17:22 David Dark wrote:
wait... wait... wait a minute...
so being able to force terran to wall in with all his units and keep him in his base so you can do whatever you want all over the map just because you have 6 zerglings is not considered as being aggressive?
and what do you do with your 6 zerglings? secure an expansion? What are you going to do when 8 reapers knock on your door? Jesus some people have serious confusion between the definition of "having 6 zerglings" and "map control".
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Terran really is the beloved race, Protoss are pretty cool as they are even with less gimmicks than Terran. The real problem is that if you buff Zerg or move things around in the tech tree they are just going to be stupidly OP in the late game as their macro is the strongest (also the most difficult to use) of the three races.
What I would like to see is the Spawn larvae ability easier to use (just give it a goddamn autocast or something) but not as powerful so the late game doesn't swing too far in in favor of Zerg. And in addition to that make some changes in the Zerg unit lineup, Roaches were nerfed into the ground and the 2 supply change made them almost not worth using them if it wasn't for them being required to hold off certain enemy harass. Perhaps a slight buff in stats to make them worth the 2 supply cost would be nice. A very slight increase in Zergling effectiveness would be nice, the Adrenal Glands upgrade is a total joke (+1 attack upgrade gives more dps increase at half the cost and no Hive tech requirement).
A lot of the problems I have personally is that it's difficult to hold off early aggression while at the same time being able to afford to tech so that you can hold off plays like DT/Banshee/Void Ray. If early aggression is effective (which without good micro, awareness and scouting it probably will be) you either lose outright or are crippled so hard that you have no hope of holding off whatever annoying ass thing he will do to you next.
Starcraft wasn't perfect when it was released and I didn't expect Starcraft 2 to be either. I feel now just as I did during the beta, they should have held off the release to balance the game more. The Activision Overlords may have had a hand in that decision.
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EPT
