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On September 09 2010 09:59 RavenNevermore wrote:
I don't like that I have to constantly on my toes about harassment and drops, while being unable to lay any meaningful form of pressure on the opponent until the mid-late game.
Why don't you do harassment/drops. Use Nydus or Overlord drops to get behind the wall. And don't dropships come out mid-late game?
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On September 09 2010 12:09 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 09:59 RavenNevermore wrote:
I don't like that I have to constantly on my toes about harassment and drops, while being unable to lay any meaningful form of pressure on the opponent until the mid-late game. Why don't you do harassment/drops. Use Nydus or Overlord drops to get behind the wall. And don't dropships come out mid-late game?
Ventral Sacs and OL speed is 300/300 - Very pricy - and lets not mention the build time on sacs. Nydus is ok but can be busted if P has 1 warp gate on no cool down + some pylons to scout which most P do anyways. Also its enough to have 1-2 zealots on patrol if that floats your boat.
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When I first started playing Brood War, I could never understand why my marines sucked against zerglings so bad(and zeolots). I couldn't even get a decent number of marines to be aggressive with because I had to bunker my ramp or my minerals to stop zerg(protoss) from destroying me in the first 5 minutes of the game. One day I observed another terran playing and learned how to wall off my choke. It made the game instantly better and made the terran race actually playable with low apm. After that the problem of harassment by air was the next major obstacle and I had to basically expect mutalisks and build a bunch of turrets(we did have ONE scan to figure the tech out). So after making mutas useless on a backstab, I could finally begin to think about moving out of my base...but not until I had a tank or 2 and a science vessel. So after researching 3 upgrades(irradiate, stim and range for marines), building several barracks, several turrets, all the depots to match the army, an engineering bay, academy, a factory with machine shop and a starport I could finally think about later in the game and plan for a command center for the extra economy. I must say that playing Terran in Brood War was a learning curve, but I toughed it out and eventually people(and maps) started doing 1 rax expansions and mech play etc.
Does this uphill battle sound familiar?
My point? Zergs just have to tough it out and learn how to combat the early crap Terran and Protoss can throw at them. I didn't like fighting uphill in Brood War, but I did it and didn't think it was unfair because eventually the evolution of the game will occur. If I didn't see Boxer kicking ass with Terran I wouldn't be playing the game anymore either, meaning that if most of you zergs suck that doesn't mean that zerg sucks you just are not capable of playing them.
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I think the balance relies heavily on the map selection.. scrap station is a good example of a zerg favored map (i think)... big choke, close air distance (fast muta harass) etc. also rock walls at the second entrance is a good example that favors Z and P... Terrans with siege tanks would most likely want to take there wall down head on.
I believe we need better maps. Don't get me wrong, we need maps with good small chokes... just not all of them.
EDIT: i should add there is a lot of maps that favor T which does not help the T OP spam. (kulas Ravine ESP)
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On September 09 2010 12:16 Rabbet wrote:
When I first started playing Brood War, I could never understand why my marines sucked against zerglings so bad(and zeolots). I couldn't even get a decent number of marines to be aggressive with because I had to bunker my ramp or my minerals to stop zerg(protoss) from destroying me in the first 5 minutes of the game. One day I observed another terran playing and learned how to wall off my choke. It made the game instantly better and made the terran race actually playable with low apm. After that the problem of harassment by air was the next major obstacle and I had to basically expect mutalisks and build a bunch of turrets(we did have ONE scan to figure the tech out). So after making mutas useless on a backstab, I could finally begin to think about moving out of my base...but not until I had a tank or 2 and a science vessel. So after researching 3 upgrades(irradiate, stim and range for marines), building several barracks, several turrets, all the depots to match the army, an engineering bay, academy, a factory with machine shop and a starport I could finally think about later in the game and plan for a command center for the extra economy. I must say that playing Terran in Brood War was a learning curve, but I toughed it out and eventually people(and maps) started doing 1 rax expansions and mech play etc.
Does this uphill battle sound familiar?
My point? Zergs just have to tough it out and learn how to combat the early crap Terran and Protoss can throw at them. I didn't like fighting uphill in Brood War, but I did it and didn't think it was unfair because eventually the evolution of the game will occur. If I didn't see Boxer kicking ass with Terran I wouldn't be playing the game anymore either, meaning that if most of you zergs suck that doesn't mean that zerg sucks you just are not capable of playing them.
TvZ is in no way an uphill battle for T in BW. You just didn't know how to play properly.
Suggesting that every Zerg player (including players like IdrA and DIMAGA) just hasn't figured out how to play is pathetic and a poorly thought out excuse by non-Zerg players. Not only that, it's a problem either way - isn't it a problem if it's significantly harder for Zerg to figure out/execute anything compared to P and T?
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We complain about the weak t1 zerg...
And we know the answer... zerg didn't need a long range t1 unit with the early beta roach design... thuogh they were clearly op and needed to be nerfed... however once a balance was found there was too little development time to rebuild the zerg early game to something meaningful....
And TAAA-DAAAAAA we have release.
Zergs will learn and we will grow a lot in the next year. However I do not expect us to catch up in the # of viable build and just pure options until the next release.
It's unfortunate but it is what it is.
edit:
(also, I do actutually think it's completely reasonable to someone to say that even the very best players haven't figured out how to play yet... I have little doubt that game play a year from now will look little like it does today, we forget how new the game really is. It's not a knock on great players, it's just the simple reality that this is a VERY complex system, doesn't mean they are not the very best players, now)
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Wait since when was zerg ever aggressive? Zerg was definately the most passive in brood war.
As a disclaimer I'm not counting old style brood war, because while they may not have been playing wrongly, there's probably a reason they stopped using those builds.
ZvZ: Well, let's not mention this abomination of a match up. We're comparing races anyways.
ZvT: Sunken and drone while giving away map control, use mutas to buy time for lurkers, then use lurkers to stall and buy more time for defilers. Then use defilers to buy more time for ultralisks then attack.
ZvP: 5 hatcheries before your first attack unit (scourge hardly count).
It's just the way zerg works because of larvae and how you can't make drones and attack units at the same time to the extent other races can. If you can catch a break and don't have to defend for a period of time, the less risky option will be droning, given that you have the experience to know how much to drone. So while the harassing shennanigans might look cute, the goal of them is just more time.
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Not to mention, you could block ramps with only 2 zealots/marines/SCVs in BW, and it's impossible to do that in SC2, hence why walling is seen so much more.
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1 was enough. Atleast with SCV's and Zealots.
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On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it.
oh yeah the guy who switched from Z to T when mech became OP?
Yeah, lets listen to you.
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On September 09 2010 12:16 Rabbet wrote:
When I first started playing Brood War, I could never understand why my marines sucked against zerglings so bad(and zeolots). I couldn't even get a decent number of marines to be aggressive with because I had to bunker my ramp or my minerals to stop zerg(protoss) from destroying me in the first 5 minutes of the game. One day I observed another terran playing and learned how to wall off my choke. It made the game instantly better and made the terran race actually playable with low apm. After that the problem of harassment by air was the next major obstacle and I had to basically expect mutalisks and build a bunch of turrets(we did have ONE scan to figure the tech out). So after making mutas useless on a backstab, I could finally begin to think about moving out of my base...but not until I had a tank or 2 and a science vessel. So after researching 3 upgrades(irradiate, stim and range for marines), building several barracks, several turrets, all the depots to match the army, an engineering bay, academy, a factory with machine shop and a starport I could finally think about later in the game and plan for a command center for the extra economy. I must say that playing Terran in Brood War was a learning curve, but I toughed it out and eventually people(and maps) started doing 1 rax expansions and mech play etc.
Does this uphill battle sound familiar?
My point? Zergs just have to tough it out and learn how to combat the early crap Terran and Protoss can throw at them. I didn't like fighting uphill in Brood War, but I did it and didn't think it was unfair because eventually the evolution of the game will occur. If I didn't see Boxer kicking ass with Terran I wouldn't be playing the game anymore either, meaning that if most of you zergs suck that doesn't mean that zerg sucks you just are not capable of playing them.
Big pile of nonsense. What do you know about Starcraft 1.00 to be honest? Here you come and talk about BW and Boxer which became known in 2001? 2002? Hey man, as i recall it that was BW and after patch 1.08 (January 2001 i remember correctly) was released, which basically was the final balance patch for BW. 2 ½ years after the games release with an expansion to boost. Don't compare this game to BW and the whine popping up now as if it would be the same as if people whined in BW.
Back in the days - yeah i played Starcraft 1 from release day until 2000, and the talk was much similar to the current whine/talk/ideas (although we didn't have the same structured forums and community) and the first balance patches that came really changed a lot and dealt with loads of balance issues which hopefully will happen to this game too. So all these things are legitimate complaints - and its up to blizzard to find out which ones are severe and that needs to be dealt with and which ones that can be dealt with by strategy and skill.
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Wall-ins have very little to do with how passive Zerg has to be and react to the opponent. People could "wall-in" as Terran or Protoss back in BW as well, and they effectively shut down early aggression outside of all-in mass speedlings. Even then, it's very unreliable. One problem is that Hydras got moved to Tier 2, so now 3 hatch hydra bust isn't even an option (a fairly effective all-in against Protoss).
But...
The problem now is how tier 1-1.5 units for Protoss and Terran are so strong now. They can be so aggressive (especially with the aid of smaller maps). BW Zerg can get away with FE with sunkens and zerglings until Mutas. Terrans wouldn't even try to break sunken walls+lings with M&M because it simply just wasn't powerful enough to break a good zerg player in early-mid game. Protoss still has 2-gate aggression, and now they have effective ways to deal with zerglings as Zealots are much better in SC2 against zerglings, and Force Fields allow Protoss to create "chokes" in the middle of the map.
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I really don't see the point in comparing BW PvZ with SC2 PvZ.
In SC2, you go 1base, and you have to wall off with gate/buildings/zealots.
In BW, you most often fast expanded with cannons, so it was a completely different animal. If you were going 1base, you could still block the choke with 2 hold position Zealots, before any lings get to you (save a 5pool). Or if it was a rampless map, and you went 1base, you were probably cheesing or are going to lose.
TvAnything in BW would often involve walling, anyway.
Your comparison to BW is completely flawed, and the Zerg do have a tier 1 ranged unit. Its called the Roach.
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It's an entire set of changes that makes zerg more passive than BW.
-Wall-ins less expensive. Easier to build a wall-in that also allows large #s of units out later on.
-Zerglings nerfed in effectiveness
-Hellions introduced (roasts lings, harasses early) compared to vulture has AoE damage
-Hydras moved to tier 2
-Mutas cannot stack
-Missile turrets stronger/faster
-Marauders introduced (they're a meatshield that Terran previously lacked + do at least alright vs any zerg ground unit + kill buildings)
-Reapers introduced (roasts lings, harasses early)
-Queens introduced (places 75% of Zerg's production capabilities into a unit that has 175 hp making not-defending much riskier)
-Bunkers only have opportunity cost
-Static defense takes longer to build
-No defensive unit (lurker) to fall back on after aggression
-Sentries introduced
-Zealots stronger vs lings
-Stalkers can kite zerg's T1 counterpart (roaches)
-Protoss AoE threats (colossi) that can't be flanked (unless the protoss is terrible)
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Agree. As a zerg I feel as if I'm at the mercy of whatever it is my opponent is doing and have to adapt to him instead of the other way around if I choose to be somewhat aggressive. You simply can't pressure enough as zerg before tier 2 and gain little scouting information suiciding lings. If only the other races had to fly a slow moving supply unit into certain doom just to catch a glimpse of what the opponent is making.
I think it's a huge map issue, and also just once of the many problems that is wrong with zerg right now. Lack of reliable early scouting, easy of wall ins for the other race, units that are literally hard countered in some way by the other races units that they would probably make any way (marauders/stalkers/hellions/tanks, etc.), the time it takes to get to tier 3, the necessity of getting to tier 3 if the opponent turtles in the least. I could go on and on, but it's all been said before. Also, where is zergs ranged splash unit? I'd take lurker over baneling any day, but they're just using the overlapping roles argument to sell expansions IMO.
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People saying that the Roach is a ranged Tier 1 unit don't seem to understand. 3 Range attacking a wall may as well be Melee, as it is in plain range of any unit behind the wall.
We really should keep the references to Brood War style out of this. That wasn't my intention when making the post. I merely mentioned that Walls weren't as commonplace or as effective in Brood War.
I COMPLETELY agree that If wall-ins were completely impossible that Zerglings would be overpowered. I would never suggest that Wall-ins should be impossible, but perhaps there should be some potential negatives to building that wall... some threats to that wall at a Tier 1 level. A unit that can attack the wall from a distance at an early level, something that forces the terran or protoss to do something other than sit in his base and smile.
I've seen allot of stuff saying "Just use Nydus, overlord drops, muta harass", Yes, there are some mid-late game options for Zerg to begin being agressive, but this isn't about that. This is about the early game, which is a critical time to set the game.
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If you removed all ramps and cliffs the game would be reasonably balanced. I don't think its necessarily any one thing. Some things may stick out more than others but it's all the little advantages and disadvantages added together.
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On September 09 2010 12:51 RavenNevermore wrote:
People saying that the Roach is a ranged Tier 1 unit don't seem to understand. 3 Range attacking a wall may as well be Melee, as it is in plain range of any unit behind the wall.
We really should keep the references to Brood War style out of this. That wasn't my intention when making the post. I merely mentioned that Walls weren't as commonplace or as effective in Brood War.
I COMPLETELY agree that If wall-ins were completely impossible that Zerglings would be overpowered. I would never suggest that Wall-ins should be impossible, but perhaps there should be some potential negatives to building that wall... some threats to that wall at a Tier 1 level. A unit that can attack the wall from a distance at an early level, something that forces the terran or protoss to do something other than sit in his base and smile.
I've seen allot of stuff saying "Just use Nydus, overlord drops, muta harass", Yes, there are some mid-late game options for Zerg to begin being agressive, but this isn't about that. This is about the early game, which is a critical time to set the game.
100% agreed!
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I agree.
Terran players/players who wall in, almost never experience early pressure/aggressiveness.
Zerg was the race to force pressure and be aggressive, but that's very hard for Zerg to do in SC2.
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It's thinking like this imo that is the cause of the 4-gate/finish this asap syndrome plaguing ladder atm. I absolutely hate games that end in 10 minutes or less because of some lame early game rush that takes minimum skill and just happens to work half the time by chance. I'll wall-off and forcefield all day long until I'm ready to steamroll my opponent.
Also just food for thought but a Z T1 unit with long range would shut down any zealot use from P lead to questionable balance.
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On September 09 2010 13:12 Cynoks wrote:
It's thinking like this imo that is the cause of the 4-gate/finish this asap syndrome plaguing ladder atm. I absolutely hate games that end in 10 minutes or less because of some lame early game rush that takes minimum skill and just happens to work half the time by chance. I'll wall-off and forcefield all day long until I'm ready to steamroll my opponent.
Also just food for thought but a Z T1 unit with long range would shut down any zealot use from P lead to questionable balance.
In what manner?
Make it 1.5 if you must but either way I don't see what you're saying because currently good zergling usage and roaches negate zealots on their own just as well...
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EPT
