EPTZerg and Tier 1 Upgrades - Page 4
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casualman
United States1198 Posts
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
well written, good job. | ||
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Cyclon
United States99 Posts
On September 06 2010 09:15 MythicalMage wrote: The issue with that would be that it would make Zerg effectively immune to early game harass, without detection. It's not entirely bad, it stops mining time and whatnot, but it seems pretty abusable. Zerg would never be immune to harass. If you needed X amount of Zerglings to beat Y units at Z time, and the inherent burrow made them 2x as effective, Zerg players would have the chance to make Y/2 units instead and get an economy boost. Most would probably end up doing this. Its also chancy, Reapers could just never go over them and Hellions are fast enough that you have to time it well. If you are thinking of Drones being able to burrow, it wouldn't happen since Drones are hover units that don't get any effect from creep anyway. On September 06 2010 09:40 MythicalMage wrote: Wall ins stop mutalisks? Wall in stop banshees? Wall ins stop reapers? Wall ins stop void rays? /sigh. It amazes me how much people LOVE mentioning the wall in. If there was ANY way for me to win/function without a wallin, I would.(I play random, but I've been favoring Terran and Protoss recently, due to my sucking at zerg mechanics.) I avoid them entirely in the other matchups, but I HAVE to not die to speedlings. Well, muta/banshee/void rays all aren't exactly early game harass. Furthermore, the T1 mineral-only unit counters all of them while Zerg has to tech up to T2 to get a reliable unit to shoot air. Reapers are fail against terran because, again, marines. Zerg is really vulnerable to marines. So yes, the wall in pretty much makes you immune to effective early game harass as long as you make a relatively small amount of forces. | ||
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OnbeygiR
Turkey12 Posts
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
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AssuredVacancy
United States1167 Posts
On September 06 2010 09:40 MythicalMage wrote: Wall ins stop mutalisks? Wall in stop banshees? Wall ins stop reapers? Wall ins stop void rays? /sigh. It amazes me how much people LOVE mentioning the wall in. If there was ANY way for me to win/function without a wallin, I would.(I play random, but I've been favoring Terran and Protoss recently, due to my sucking at zerg mechanics.) I avoid them entirely in the other matchups, but I HAVE to not die to speedlings. If you count muta/banshee/void rays harass as "early game" by all means.. And you want to discredit stopping all drone mining as a form of harassment, then I don't know what game you're playing. Honestly you're downplaying A LOT on how important the wall in is. The ability to stay inside a wall and tech while having 2 units is incomparable than your so called stopping harass by 'abusing' burrow with drones. | ||
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birdkicker
United States752 Posts
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eH
88 Posts
On September 06 2010 09:40 MythicalMage wrote: Wall ins stop mutalisks? Wall in stop banshees? Wall ins stop reapers? Wall ins stop void rays? /sigh. It amazes me how much people LOVE mentioning the wall in. If there was ANY way for me to win/function without a wallin, I would.(I play random, but I've been favoring Terran and Protoss recently, due to my sucking at zerg mechanics.) I avoid them entirely in the other matchups, but I HAVE to not die to speedlings. Nobody is blaming terran for walling in to avoid speedling runbys, its the smart thing to do. The point is that people say its completely fine for terran to be immune to early game harass (like zerg has many options for it anyway) but zerg should always be essentially wide open to it (and theres so many different forms it can take from terran). Not really a good standard. And lets be honest, mutalisks are not early game harass, not even close. Zerg has like 3 options for early game harass. Speedlings (shut down by wall, obv), banelings (generally pretty allin and easily stopped) and early roaches (which will get hosed by a little bit of repair with a bunker behind the wall). I don't personally agree with innate burrow, but I dislike the idea that terran is immune until zerg can get to spire. | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
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Vedreth
Australia38 Posts
On September 06 2010 09:15 MythicalMage wrote: The issue with that would be that it would make Zerg effectively immune to early game harass, without detection. It's not entirely bad, it stops mining time and whatnot, but it seems pretty abusable. This would give the zerg a good chance to be early harass resistant (not immune), similar to the terran / protoss wall. Additionally, you could slow the pace of it by breaking burrow into 2 seperate upgrades: - Creep-only burrow - 50min 50gas from hatch - Upgraded (regular) burrow - 50min 50 gas from lair This would allow early-ish defensive banelings / drone safety etc. Also, take away the passive burrowed roach regen but keep the upgraded regen rate the same - can't abuse this defense early but remains unchanged for later game. EDIT: Thinking about this more, this would make terran have a certain 'risk' when going for relatively safe pushes with loads of marines or the now popular reapers. | ||
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Ndugu
United States1078 Posts
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Half
United States2554 Posts
Overspeed gives zerg far too much scouting power, basically having a t1 flying scout that cannot be killed unless the opponent has massed marines or stalkers. This is intrinsically not balanceable. If the cost and timing is low enough that zerg players will always get it before lair, then zerg early game scouting is far too OP. If the cost and timing were increased so that there is confliction with lair, then no zerg would ever use it because overseers build extremely quickly. This could be rectified again by nerfing overseers, but then people would just stop using overseers, and zerg would actually, all in all, be nerfed. The remaining upgrade would be almost useless in T1. It only makes a huge difference once t approaches critical mass bio armies (or mech), neither which happen early game. The gas cost would always be worse then simply getting SIX more banelings until midgame. imo I think they should make roach moveburrow/burrowed regen just a default ability. Its probably one of the most reactive, niche, researches in the game, and it currently costs 2 upgrades, one which interferes with the crucial roach speed upgrade. Hmm immune to early game harass. Sounds a lot like terran to me, and I don't remember anyone saying nerf wall ins because they prevent early game harass. different races are different. more news at eleven. these seem like really fair, and really good changes. please post this on the battle.net forums. roach and baneling speed on t1 = great. I really cant see the justification roach speed is t2. Baneling i can see argument for. lol. This is why I always laugh whenever people criticize blizzards inability to game design. | ||
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KrUtiAL
United States41 Posts
I think banelings should be moved to t2 Hydras should be moved to t1 Hydras and roaches should be 1 supply with small damage and hp nerfs | ||
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crms
United States11933 Posts
On September 06 2010 07:47 MythicalMage wrote: The argument is pushes. I'd imagine that Terran literally couldn't expand with tier one roach speed. you mean zerg aren't allowed to have an upgradable answer to units that can jump up/down cliffs, units that can upgrade slow, and stim (all on t1 mind you) yeah sorry that justification doesn't work for me. and to half, care to elaborate on what's so 'lol' about my first post? Please justify roach speed at t2, when almost the entire issue with zerg is dealing with early game harass/abuse. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On September 06 2010 11:43 Ndugu wrote: Moving Pneumatized carapace to tier 1 is one of the best Z-fix ideas I've ever heard. Ever. I really don't think this will help Z much at all... There are several reasons for this assumption: 1) Ovi Speed costs 100/100, that's almost a liar tech - what does scouting stuff help if the Z then can't tech fast enough to get the right counter-units? 2) Zerg-builds are very very tight early on in every MU - you will have a hard time defending early rushes/pressure if you invest so much ressources into something that doesn't contribute to your army-strength. 3) If the Opponent has Marines/Stalkers or sth. in the right position or hides his tech somehwere on the Map, you won't even be able to scout the stuff you need to see to make the investment pay off. 4) By the time you are at a confortable position and held off the reapers/hellions or anything and could actually drone up or tech, which you definitely need to, you'd invest ressources into this upgrade. By the time it's finished, you could have liar-tech almost done and an overseer could be used to scout. 5) Slow-Overlords can be used to scout as well. It's not guaranteed to work, but if you simply peak in with an ovi, you might just see everything you need to. If it was 50/50 again, I' could see it being more useful though, cuz those 50/50 make quite a difference that early on in the game. If it costs 100/100, I'd probably never research it before T2 anyways, just because as Z, I tech extremely fast anyways... | ||
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Garaman
United States556 Posts
On September 06 2010 09:03 MythicalMage wrote: I don't care what most of the people on TL think either. My primary concern is the competitive/esports scene of this game. You saying "X doesn't work" doesn't mean much when I've seen a pro player do it on several occasions. I can say "Templar are UP" because I suck at placing storms, and it means nothing. I can say "banelings are OP" because I suck at microing my infantry back, when in fact they're perfectly fine. And being paid to play wasn't exactly what I meant. I mean that you are at a pro level. Day9 is at a pro level, but isn't paid to play. the competitive scene in this game is in its infancy. you have an imbalanced game, not alot of time passed and pretty much cream of the crop players still on BW newayz, i think this post started off with just regular play suggestions to give variety for the zerg player. the only reason why things still work on sc2 competitive scene right now is the fact that nothing is standardized. pretty soon, it will come to the same conclusion that certain things are stupid to do, like over investing in goddamn roaches | ||
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Garaman
United States556 Posts
On September 06 2010 09:40 MythicalMage wrote: Wall ins stop mutalisks? Wall in stop banshees? Wall ins stop reapers? Wall ins stop void rays? /sigh. It amazes me how much people LOVE mentioning the wall in. If there was ANY way for me to win/function without a wallin, I would.(I play random, but I've been favoring Terran and Protoss recently, due to my sucking at zerg mechanics.) I avoid them entirely in the other matchups, but I HAVE to not die to speedlings. rofl since when is fucking banshees or mutalisks early game harass? are you retarded? the wallin stops any zealot,zergling or other early game ground forces on TIER 1 tech to come and harass you. wow. some of the most retarded posting ive yet to read | ||
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eth3n
718 Posts
For all those saying OL speed is overpowered, I think the OL is the only unit that will feasibly be able to solve the zerg scouting crisis (as much as we all love sac'n OLs for often useless information). Increase vision (at the cost of speed?), increase standard speed (at the cost of health?), I don't have the answer, but I think the answer lies somewhere with the OL. | ||
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Kokosaft
Germany172 Posts
On September 06 2010 07:33 MythicalMage wrote: The main complaint of Zerg players these days is the LACK of variety. Roaches in Phase 1 were the definition of an OP unit. While a buff may be in order, I think roaches are a LOT stronger than people give them credit for. The issue is that it requires really small timing windows, and we don't know the timing windows for every Terran build yet. roaches definitely aren't bad, but you can't do timing pushes/early pressure with them, because they are horribly slow, you can use them for defending only, and even thats not working out too well without speed imo the roach is too weak for an unit that becomes viable through t2 tech, but if speed would be t1 tech, they should be fine | ||
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TobZero
Germany493 Posts
the last days - especialy the last weekend i played a lot more tier1 based games and really didnt miss all the stuff. the idea behind this was that even when i love muta play its quit vulnerable to strong 1base counter pushes simply because u dont have much stuff. i basicly stayed on t1 until i took my third (which was due to that quite fast) or i scouted voidray/banshee rush. i had alot of good games and had to learn that 1gas2base sling/roach into 2gas2base sling/bling/roach is really really strong vs. all those 1base strats atm. to make zerg early game a bit more interesting i would hope for tiny changes only. like blizz is going to do in the next patch anyway. what i really think would be a great idea is: - giving overlord spit creep at t1 through an upgrade this would open up so many things without beeing to strong as they are slow as hell. to balance the additional costs i would have the cost of overseer and ventralsacs cost/research time at lair reduced which again would lead to a lot of interesting play. Zira | ||
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