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Zerg and Tier 1 Upgrades

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Sirot
Profile Joined March 2010
48 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-05 22:18:12
September 05 2010 22:16 GMT
#1
A common complaint among the Zerg playing population is the lack of choice found in Zerg early game. While this does not necessarily make the Zerg weaker, it makes them predictable and forces them to reach Lair tech as soon as possible just to stay competitive.

Below, is the units and upgrades the Zerg player has access to during the early game (pre-Lair) if he or she built every structure available during that tier. It is evident that the Zerg has little variety in upgrades but a decent selection of units.

- Drone
- Overlord
- Zergling
- Queen
- Roach
- Baneling
- Spine Crawler
- Spore Crawler
- Metabolic Boost (Zergling Speed)
- Melee Attack 1
- Range Attack 1
- Ground Carapace 1


Now, lets keep all those buildings we morphed in the previous example and just upgrade our Hatchery into a Lair. We can disregard all the other contributions Lair gives the Zerg player if he or she built structures specifically unlocked from the Lair.

- Overseer
- Burrow (Uhh...Burrow)
- Pneumatized Carapace (Overlord Speed)
- Ventral Sacs (Overlord Transport)
- Glial Reconstitution (Roach Speed)
- Tunneling Claws (Roach Burrowing/Regen)
- Centrifugal Hooks (Baneling Speed)
- Melee Attack 2
- Range Attack 2
- Ground Carapace 2


What is immediately visible is that almost every upgrade the Zerg has for their tier 1 units only becomes available only once a Lair is complete. This is actually rather strange.

Upgrades are simple and straight forward way of getting a window of opportunity where you have the "advantage". As an example, when a Terran players finishes researching Stimpack and moves out with his or her Marine/Marauder composition, the Terran player gains the ability to do a powerful timing attack. Both Protoss and Terran usually can gain access to the upgrades to their units very shortly after getting access to that specific unit. For a Zerg player there seems to exist a threshold that once crossed, he or she becomes flooded with choices but starves leading up to it. That threshold, of course, being completion of a Lair.

I am now going to list all the units and upgrades that become avaliable once all the lair-tech structures are morphed in. All of these things are hidden behind a 60 second barrier that costs 150 minerals and 100 gas. There is an obvious need for a Zerg player to upgrade to a Lair as soon as it is safe or viable to do so.

- Overseer
- Burrow (Uhh...Burrow)
- Pneumatized Carapace (Overlord Speed)
- Ventral Sacs (Overlord Transport)
- Glial Reconstitution (Roach Speed)
- Tunneling Claws (Roach Burrowing/Regen)
- Centrifugal Hooks (Baneling Speed)
- Melee Attack 2
- Range Attack 2
- Ground Carapace 2
- Hydralisk
- Infestor
- Mutalisk
- Corruptor
- Nydus Worm
- Grooved Spines (Hydralisk Range)
- Pathogen Glands (Infestor Energy)
- Neural Parasite (Infestor Ability)
- Flyer Attack 1 and 2
- Flyer Carapace 1 and 2


What I suggest is the following:

As a way to give choice to the Zerg player and promoting innovation in the early game, some of the upgrades that are unlocked in tier 2 for tier 1 units, be moved to tier 1. I am decently ranked Diamond player, but I am not going to pretend that I have any clue how would these changes will be utilized by the higher level players.

There are three upgrades that I believe that are three prime candidates to be moved into tier 1 from tier 2. They are Pneumatized Carapace for the Overlord, Glial Reconstitution for the Roach and Centrifugal Hooks for the baneling. All the other upgrades will remain the same tiers as they are now.

Candidate 1:
Pneumatized Carapace
100/100 60 seconds

This is one of the most important upgrades that a Zerg player can research. Pneumatized Carapace allows the Zerg to scout comfortably and efficiently, which is very important as a reactionary race. It being in tier 1 will shorten the period of the time that a Zerg player is playing blind and is unsure of how he or she should react to their opponent.

I feel that Pneumatized Carapace being immediately available from the hatchery would create an interesting dynamic. Not only would it compete with Metabolic Boost for the first 100 gas, it would make the complicate the decision of whether or not to get a Queen early. While Pneumatized Carapace would be researching from a Hatchery, it would not be able to spawn a Queen. This is unless you would expand early with a second hatchery, which would allow you to get a Queen and Pneumatized Carapace at the same time. That would of course leave you more vulnerable to attack since you just delayed your Metabolic Boost and your zerglings have become less effective.

Candidate 2:
Glial Reconstitution
100/100 110 seconds

Somewhat recently, something very strange happened. A player by the name of Fistdantilus discovered that the Zerg could do a timing push with 5 Roaches and a handful of Zerglings. The early game effectiveness of the Roaches is rather interesting and I think can be explored further by allowing their speed upgrade to be researched in tier 1. Back in the beta, the Roach was feared and powerful Zerg unit and it made sense to keep them tame as possible in Tier 1. Since the beta, the Roach has been made dramatically weaker and now deserves a helping hand.

The Zerg are traditionally a gas starved race, so researching this upgrade would be an investment that results in the player having four fewer roaches or worse yet, delaying their Lair upgrade for those all important Hydralisk or Mutalisks. The effects of this change will encourage the use of early game Roaches, especially in ZvZ but may negatively affect the balance of ZvP.

Candidate 2:
Centrifugal Hooks
150/150 110 seconds

This is a very expensive upgrade. The gas cost of this upgrade alone would be able to fund 6 banelings. In addition, banelings are something you get as a do-or-die reaction, it is not very often in the early game that a player commits to using banelings in their army (unless they are doing a bust, in which case they would rather have 6 more banelings). I feel this is a safe upgrade to move from tier 2 to tier 1 without impacting the balance of the game, but at the same giving options to more creative players than I.


Is this shifting content from tier 2 to tier 1 viable way of adding variety to the Zerg early game and if so, did I make the right choices in terms of things to transfer over?

EDIT: weird formatting mistakes
Intropy
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada92 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-05 22:22:25
September 05 2010 22:21 GMT
#2
Just by itself moving overlord speed to Hatchery instead of Lair would solve SOOOO many of Zerg's problems.

The other two would be welcome though in order to add some more options for early Zerg other than macroing and defending in order to tech to viable upgrades at lair.
Intropy.469
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
September 05 2010 22:24 GMT
#3
Personally I think roach speed should be tier 1 and roaches in general should be buffed.
Slipspace
Profile Joined May 2010
United States381 Posts
September 05 2010 22:28 GMT
#4
i seriously think tier 1 burrow would create a new tier 1 dynamic and add some variety
XsebT
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Denmark2980 Posts
September 05 2010 22:29 GMT
#5
Though I won't even start to consider balance, I do actually like these ideas... However, Blizzard must have thought of this as well and probably have good reasons for not changing it.
But man, I would love my early roaches to be a bit faster..
화이팅
AssuredVacancy
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States1167 Posts
September 05 2010 22:29 GMT
#6
On September 06 2010 07:28 Slipspace wrote:
i seriously think tier 1 burrow would create a new tier 1 dynamic and add some variety


BW had tier 1 burrow and no one used it. I don't think tier 1 burrow would help unupgraded roaches that much to revolutionize any match up.
We spend our youth attaining wealth, and our wealth attaining youth.
Salvarias
Profile Joined May 2010
Denmark231 Posts
September 05 2010 22:30 GMT
#7
On September 06 2010 07:24 nafta wrote:
Personally I think roach speed should be tier 1 and roaches in general should be buffed.


You know im 99% sure that in phase 1 of the beta roach speed was hatchery tech, it got moved to lair with no reason, and I allways wondered why... but im really sure it was once hatchery tech, and it pissed me off ever since that it's not anymore.

there was 3 roach upgrades back then and im sure there was one for each tier...
MythicalMage
Profile Joined May 2010
1360 Posts
September 05 2010 22:31 GMT
#8
I am decently ranked Diamond player, but I am not going to pretend that I have any clue how would these changes will be utilized by the higher level players.
I respect you infinitely for saying that.

Regardless, I think ALL of them might be a bit much, but one or two would be fine. Then again, as you said, it might make Dimaga literally unstoppable. Assuming he's playing Zerg. >.>
MythicalMage
Profile Joined May 2010
1360 Posts
September 05 2010 22:33 GMT
#9
On September 06 2010 07:30 Salvarias wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2010 07:24 nafta wrote:
Personally I think roach speed should be tier 1 and roaches in general should be buffed.


You know im 99% sure that in phase 1 of the beta roach speed was hatchery tech, it got moved to lair with no reason, and I allways wondered why... but im really sure it was once hatchery tech, and it pissed me off ever since that it's not anymore.

there was 3 roach upgrades back then and im sure there was one for each tier...

The main complaint of Zerg players these days is the LACK of variety. Roaches in Phase 1 were the definition of an OP unit. While a buff may be in order, I think roaches are a LOT stronger than people give them credit for. The issue is that it requires really small timing windows, and we don't know the timing windows for every Terran build yet.
Salvarias
Profile Joined May 2010
Denmark231 Posts
September 05 2010 22:34 GMT
#10
On September 06 2010 07:33 MythicalMage wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2010 07:30 Salvarias wrote:
On September 06 2010 07:24 nafta wrote:
Personally I think roach speed should be tier 1 and roaches in general should be buffed.


You know im 99% sure that in phase 1 of the beta roach speed was hatchery tech, it got moved to lair with no reason, and I allways wondered why... but im really sure it was once hatchery tech, and it pissed me off ever since that it's not anymore.

there was 3 roach upgrades back then and im sure there was one for each tier...

The main complaint of Zerg players these days is the LACK of variety. Roaches in Phase 1 were the definition of an OP unit. While a buff may be in order, I think roaches are a LOT stronger than people give them credit for. The issue is that it requires really small timing windows, and we don't know the timing windows for every Terran build yet.


you mean the none existing window with a 25 second ultra cheap tech lap on a early barrack for marauders ?
Slipspace
Profile Joined May 2010
United States381 Posts
September 05 2010 22:35 GMT
#11
On September 06 2010 07:29 AssuredVacancy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2010 07:28 Slipspace wrote:
i seriously think tier 1 burrow would create a new tier 1 dynamic and add some variety


BW had tier 1 burrow and no one used it. I don't think tier 1 burrow would help unupgraded roaches that much to revolutionize any match up.


BW didn't have banelings or higher passive health regen on burrowed roaches (they do regen a bit faster, even without the upgrade).
kickinhead
Profile Joined December 2008
Switzerland2069 Posts
September 05 2010 22:35 GMT
#12
burrow to tier1 and make blings able to move underground.

Burrowed blings are good, but rely too much on the opponent making mistakes.

and overseers should be available on t1 as well, then Z could actually stay on t1 longer without autoloss 2 cloaked banshees and they'd have decent scouting-options.
https://soundcloud.com/thesamplethief
Slipspace
Profile Joined May 2010
United States381 Posts
September 05 2010 22:37 GMT
#13
On September 06 2010 07:35 kickinhead wrote:
burrow to tier1 and make blings able to move underground.

Burrowed blings are good, but rely too much on the opponent making mistakes.

and overseers should be available on t1 as well, then Z could actually stay on t1 longer without autoloss 2 cloaked banshees and they'd have decent scouting-options.


i definitely don't think those would be good changes
Zips
Profile Joined August 2010
United States146 Posts
September 05 2010 22:40 GMT
#14
I completely agree with your suggested changes.

If anyone suggests rushing to lair tech, I'd like to preemptively point out that this isn't really viable, because we can't wall off, nor is there any advantage to fighting at chokes (lings&roaches don't perform terribly well in chokes), which basically ensures 1-dimensional, boring early games, that all center around lings/blings, or the 5rr.

So yea, you make a good case. Spice up the zerg early game, please!
kickinhead
Profile Joined December 2008
Switzerland2069 Posts
September 05 2010 22:42 GMT
#15
On September 06 2010 07:37 Slipspace wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2010 07:35 kickinhead wrote:
burrow to tier1 and make blings able to move underground.

Burrowed blings are good, but rely too much on the opponent making mistakes.

and overseers should be available on t1 as well, then Z could actually stay on t1 longer without autoloss 2 cloaked banshees and they'd have decent scouting-options.


i definitely don't think those would be good changes


okay, why?
https://soundcloud.com/thesamplethief
MythicalMage
Profile Joined May 2010
1360 Posts
September 05 2010 22:42 GMT
#16
On September 06 2010 07:35 kickinhead wrote:
burrow to tier1 and make blings able to move underground.

Burrowed blings are good, but rely too much on the opponent making mistakes.

and overseers should be available on t1 as well, then Z could actually stay on t1 longer without autoloss 2 cloaked banshees and they'd have decent scouting-options.

Noooo.

If you don't tech to something with detection, no matter your race, you should get punished for it. For Terran that means you have to get an ebay and turrets, for Protoss a forge and cannons, and for zerg a evo chamber and and sporecrawlers.
crms
Profile Joined February 2010
United States11933 Posts
September 05 2010 22:44 GMT
#17
roach and baneling speed on t1 = great.

I really cant see the justification roach speed is t2. Baneling i can see argument for.
http://i.imgur.com/fAUOr2c.png | Fighting games are great
Effect010
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany89 Posts
September 05 2010 22:46 GMT
#18
tier one burrow would be a very hudge change...especially when you dont have that many units so you can micro them well..you could kill 5 stalkers with about 3 or 4 roaches if you micro them well and they would have full hp in the end..and toss would not have any detection... bad idea
"Keep stepping over dead bodys." - day9
MythicalMage
Profile Joined May 2010
1360 Posts
September 05 2010 22:46 GMT
#19
On September 06 2010 07:34 Salvarias wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2010 07:33 MythicalMage wrote:
On September 06 2010 07:30 Salvarias wrote:
On September 06 2010 07:24 nafta wrote:
Personally I think roach speed should be tier 1 and roaches in general should be buffed.


You know im 99% sure that in phase 1 of the beta roach speed was hatchery tech, it got moved to lair with no reason, and I allways wondered why... but im really sure it was once hatchery tech, and it pissed me off ever since that it's not anymore.

there was 3 roach upgrades back then and im sure there was one for each tier...

The main complaint of Zerg players these days is the LACK of variety. Roaches in Phase 1 were the definition of an OP unit. While a buff may be in order, I think roaches are a LOT stronger than people give them credit for. The issue is that it requires really small timing windows, and we don't know the timing windows for every Terran build yet.


you mean the none existing window with a 25 second ultra cheap tech lap on a early barrack for marauders ?

I see new attacks ALL the time. Like every time I see a good zerg play, I'm amazed at the cute timings that exist. If you look at "oh he's got marauders, I'm screwed with roaches" mentality, then sure, zerg is UP. But if you say "Oh, I've got thirty roaches, and he has five marauders, I win." then you've got something powerful. These things exist, just people are often too afraid to try them out. You don't discover timings by macroing, you discover them by trying random attacks.
MythicalMage
Profile Joined May 2010
1360 Posts
September 05 2010 22:47 GMT
#20
On September 06 2010 07:44 crms wrote:
roach and baneling speed on t1 = great.

I really cant see the justification roach speed is t2. Baneling i can see argument for.

The argument is pushes. I'd imagine that Terran literally couldn't expand with tier one roach speed.
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