EPTZerg and Tier 1 Upgrades - Page 2
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Smurfz
United States327 Posts
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Merikh
United States918 Posts
On September 06 2010 07:46 MythicalMage wrote: I see new attacks ALL the time. Like every time I see a good zerg play, I'm amazed at the cute timings that exist. If you look at "oh he's got marauders, I'm screwed with roaches" mentality, then sure, zerg is UP. But if you say "Oh, I've got thirty roaches, and he has five marauders, I win." then you've got something powerful. These things exist, just people are often too afraid to try them out. You don't discover timings by macroing, you discover them by trying random attacks. If Z has 30 roaches and you have 5 marauders, you're doing something wrong lol just to throw that out there. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On September 06 2010 07:42 MythicalMage wrote: Noooo. If you don't tech to something with detection, no matter your race, you should get punished for it. For Terran that means you have to get an ebay and turrets, for Protoss a forge and cannons, and for zerg a evo chamber and and sporecrawlers. you realize that spore crawlers are horrible against banshees? you need way too many to cover your 2bases, so Z has to fasttech to liar for detection, while Z has almost no threat to force the Terran into making anything with detection. Besides, in BW, overlords automatically were detectors and stuff like DT'S or cloaked Wraihs didn't get out any later as in sc2 AND Z could actually punish the opponent for fastteching... | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On September 06 2010 07:49 Merikh wrote: If Z has 30 roaches and you have 5 marauders, you're doing something wrong lol just to throw that out there. Not necessarily. Let's say you do a one rax FE and lose an early skirmish. Then you don't get tech labs up fast enough. That sort of thing happens. Or, for example, the Terran goes 3-5 rax reapers, and the zerg gets roach speed surprisingly quickly and pushes on a small map. It's not out of the question. | ||
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StupidFatHobbit
United States98 Posts
On September 06 2010 07:47 MythicalMage wrote: The argument is pushes. I'd imagine that Terran literally couldn't expand with tier one roach speed. So what you're saying is that if zerg goes a heavy 1base T1 army with roaches, Terran won't be able to fast expand against it? I would think that's how it should be. The very fact you're even arguing against it is sheer evidence of your tremendous bias. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On September 06 2010 07:50 kickinhead wrote: This isn't BW. Like you said, you didn't need detection as much. Also, due to the maps, zergs WERE still punished by cloacked units as their bases were more spread out. you realize that spore crawlers are horrible against banshees? you need way too many to cover your 2bases, so Z has to fasttech to liar for detection, while Z has almost no threat to force the Terran into making anything with detection. Besides, in BW, overlords automatically were detectors and stuff like DT'S or cloaked Wraihs didn't get out any later as in sc2 AND Z could actually punish the opponent for fastteching... As for spore crawlers and the like, that's an individual case thing. The point, which you ignored, was that you should be punished for not teching and the way that's done is through the lack of detection. Spore Crawlers may need a buff. I dunno. That's just the way this game works, and the way it SHOULD work. I don't want a game where someone can literally stay on tier one for long periods of time. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On September 06 2010 07:52 StupidFatHobbit wrote: So what you're saying is that if zerg goes a heavy 1base T1 army with roaches, Terran won't be able to fast expand against it? I would think that's how it should be. The very fact you're even arguing against it is sheer evidence of your tremendous bias. I'm not saying it's a valid argument, I'm saying that's what the argument is. I think it WOULD be fine, but most people, likely including Blizzard, disagree. | ||
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On September 06 2010 07:52 StupidFatHobbit wrote: So what you're saying is that if zerg goes a heavy 1base T1 army with roaches, Terran won't be able to fast expand against it? I would think that's how it should be. The very fact you're even arguing against it is sheer evidence of your tremendous bias. True! And Z would commit to an almost all-in-strat that can easily die to marauders or banshees. I don't even think 1 or even 2-base roaches with speed would be a "good" build, but you could maybe punish some greedy Terrans. | ||
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Lennon
United Kingdom2275 Posts
How would you have the time or resources to do this? | ||
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Andtwo
United States126 Posts
On September 06 2010 07:47 MythicalMage wrote: The argument is pushes. I'd imagine that Terran literally couldn't expand with tier one roach speed. You think even with a few bunkers/marauders it would be impossible because the roaches have speed? Keep in mind concussive shells is cheaper than roach speed to begin with. | ||
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Lennon
United Kingdom2275 Posts
On September 06 2010 07:46 MythicalMage wrote: I see new attacks ALL the time. Like every time I see a good zerg play, I'm amazed at the cute timings that exist. If you look at "oh he's got marauders, I'm screwed with roaches" mentality, then sure, zerg is UP. But if you say "Oh, I've got thirty roaches, and he has five marauders, I win." then you've got something powerful. These things exist, just people are often too afraid to try them out. You don't discover timings by macroing, you discover them by trying random attacks. There's never going to be a situation where the Z has 30 roaches and the T has 5 Marauder. Roaches are crap. They don't work. Trust me, I've tried. The only use they have is defending versus Reaper harass and even then Reapers outrun and out-range Roaches. | ||
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Zips
United States146 Posts
On September 06 2010 07:55 MythicalMage wrote: I don't want a game where someone can literally stay on tier one for long periods of time. But you have to stay on t1 for a while. Zerg can't wall off, so small armies can't win battles like they can with toss/terran. You don't get the benefit of being able to snipe units, stuck on a choke point, trying to burn down a wall. Instead, you need an army of equal size or greater to match up against any early aggression. That seems to be the reason we want more early game options. Alternatively, blizzard could just make some units FREE with lair tech, like hydras. Or they could introduce some effective means of protecting your base without the need for a large army. The bottom line is that fast teching isn't as viable for zerg as it may be for the other races. I wish that would change, personally, but blizzard seems to think the game is balanced as it stands. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On September 06 2010 08:01 Andtwo wrote: You think even with a few bunkers/marauders it would be impossible because the roaches have speed? Keep in mind concussive shells is cheaper than roach speed to begin with. I was thinking of something like a gasless expansion, one rax FE and the like. A well timed reaper build or something similar would likely fair reasonably well. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On September 06 2010 07:59 Fantistic wrote: People don't upgrade attack/armour pre-Lair. How would you have the time or resources to do this? /agreed. Non-zergs seem to think Z has all those random piles of ressources lying around, but for Z to be able to defend, macro and tech, Z's builds are very tight early on in the game. | ||
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onmach
United States1241 Posts
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Xiran
United States50 Posts
1. Roaches- even though they wont be able to move their health will regenerate and you can save your roaches for bigger armys. 2. Banelings- BOMBS. Just with these early barracks units and sentries and zealots would take huge damage before encountering the rest of your army or static defences. 3. Lings- early scouting for army positions or denying expos. 4. Drones and Queees- Denying hellions or reapers from getting kills simply buy burrowing in advance instead of trying to run.. All of these would help fend off early game were currently zerg feel the weakest. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On September 06 2010 08:03 Fantistic wrote: Because you're a pro player. I don't care about anecdotal experience. I care about what I have seen pro players do. Pros matter infinitely more to me than your opinion, and if a pro can do that push, then it works, to me. You opinion is apparently different.There's never going to be a situation where the Z has 30 roaches and the T has 5 Marauder. Roaches are crap. They don't work. Trust me, I've tried. The only use they have is defending versus Reaper harass and even then Reapers outrun and out-range Roaches. Also of note: on creep, speed roaches are FASTER than speed reapers. On September 06 2010 08:03 Zips wrote: But you have to stay on t1 for a while. Zerg can't wall off, so small armies can't win battles like they can with toss/terran. You don't get the benefit of being able to snipe units, stuck on a choke point, trying to burn down a wall. Instead, you need an army of equal size or greater to match up against any early aggression. That seems to be the reason we want more early game options. Alternatively, blizzard could just make some units FREE with lair tech, like hydras. Or they could introduce some effective means of protecting your base without the need for a large army. The bottom line is that fast teching isn't as viable for zerg as it may be for the other races. I wish that would change, personally, but blizzard seems to think the game is balanced as it stands. Well, what I meant is that I don't want it to be ~20 minutes into the game where the zerg or any other race doesn't have lair/tech, and is in no danger of cloaked/burrowed units. | ||
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csfield
United States206 Posts
On September 06 2010 07:58 Zelniq wrote: players just need to get over their mental roadblocks that tell them they cant tech to lair quicker than they have been definitely People like to mention differences between sc2 and broodwar but then they forget that in BW lair was always your first 100 gas against terran (even before speed). Even if it's necessary to get speed first in SC2, that doesn't mean you need to make 2 queens before getting lair. | ||
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Dahyno
Canada6 Posts
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