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A common complaint among the Zerg playing population is the lack of choice found in Zerg early game. While this does not necessarily make the Zerg weaker, it makes them predictable and forces them to reach Lair tech as soon as possible just to stay competitive.
Below, is the units and upgrades the Zerg player has access to during the early game (pre-Lair) if he or she built every structure available during that tier. It is evident that the Zerg has little variety in upgrades but a decent selection of units.
- Drone
- Overlord
- Zergling
- Queen
- Roach
- Baneling
- Spine Crawler
- Spore Crawler
- Metabolic Boost (Zergling Speed)
- Melee Attack 1
- Range Attack 1
- Ground Carapace 1
Now, lets keep all those buildings we morphed in the previous example and just upgrade our Hatchery into a Lair. We can disregard all the other contributions Lair gives the Zerg player if he or she built structures specifically unlocked from the Lair.
- Overseer
- Burrow (Uhh...Burrow)
- Pneumatized Carapace (Overlord Speed)
- Ventral Sacs (Overlord Transport)
- Glial Reconstitution (Roach Speed)
- Tunneling Claws (Roach Burrowing/Regen)
- Centrifugal Hooks (Baneling Speed)
- Melee Attack 2
- Range Attack 2
- Ground Carapace 2
What is immediately visible is that almost every upgrade the Zerg has for their tier 1 units only becomes available only once a Lair is complete. This is actually rather strange.
Upgrades are simple and straight forward way of getting a window of opportunity where you have the "advantage". As an example, when a Terran players finishes researching Stimpack and moves out with his or her Marine/Marauder composition, the Terran player gains the ability to do a powerful timing attack. Both Protoss and Terran usually can gain access to the upgrades to their units very shortly after getting access to that specific unit. For a Zerg player there seems to exist a threshold that once crossed, he or she becomes flooded with choices but starves leading up to it. That threshold, of course, being completion of a Lair.
I am now going to list all the units and upgrades that become avaliable once all the lair-tech structures are morphed in. All of these things are hidden behind a 60 second barrier that costs 150 minerals and 100 gas. There is an obvious need for a Zerg player to upgrade to a Lair as soon as it is safe or viable to do so.
- Overseer
- Burrow (Uhh...Burrow)
- Pneumatized Carapace (Overlord Speed)
- Ventral Sacs (Overlord Transport)
- Glial Reconstitution (Roach Speed)
- Tunneling Claws (Roach Burrowing/Regen)
- Centrifugal Hooks (Baneling Speed)
- Melee Attack 2
- Range Attack 2
- Ground Carapace 2
- Hydralisk
- Infestor
- Mutalisk
- Corruptor
- Nydus Worm
- Grooved Spines (Hydralisk Range)
- Pathogen Glands (Infestor Energy)
- Neural Parasite (Infestor Ability)
- Flyer Attack 1 and 2
- Flyer Carapace 1 and 2
What I suggest is the following:
As a way to give choice to the Zerg player and promoting innovation in the early game, some of the upgrades that are unlocked in tier 2 for tier 1 units, be moved to tier 1. I am decently ranked Diamond player, but I am not going to pretend that I have any clue how would these changes will be utilized by the higher level players.
There are three upgrades that I believe that are three prime candidates to be moved into tier 1 from tier 2. They are Pneumatized Carapace for the Overlord, Glial Reconstitution for the Roach and Centrifugal Hooks for the baneling. All the other upgrades will remain the same tiers as they are now.
Candidate 1:
Pneumatized Carapace
100/100 60 seconds
This is one of the most important upgrades that a Zerg player can research. Pneumatized Carapace allows the Zerg to scout comfortably and efficiently, which is very important as a reactionary race. It being in tier 1 will shorten the period of the time that a Zerg player is playing blind and is unsure of how he or she should react to their opponent.
I feel that Pneumatized Carapace being immediately available from the hatchery would create an interesting dynamic. Not only would it compete with Metabolic Boost for the first 100 gas, it would make the complicate the decision of whether or not to get a Queen early. While Pneumatized Carapace would be researching from a Hatchery, it would not be able to spawn a Queen. This is unless you would expand early with a second hatchery, which would allow you to get a Queen and Pneumatized Carapace at the same time. That would of course leave you more vulnerable to attack since you just delayed your Metabolic Boost and your zerglings have become less effective.
Candidate 2:
Glial Reconstitution
100/100 110 seconds
Somewhat recently, something very strange happened. A player by the name of Fistdantilus discovered that the Zerg could do a timing push with 5 Roaches and a handful of Zerglings. The early game effectiveness of the Roaches is rather interesting and I think can be explored further by allowing their speed upgrade to be researched in tier 1. Back in the beta, the Roach was feared and powerful Zerg unit and it made sense to keep them tame as possible in Tier 1. Since the beta, the Roach has been made dramatically weaker and now deserves a helping hand.
The Zerg are traditionally a gas starved race, so researching this upgrade would be an investment that results in the player having four fewer roaches or worse yet, delaying their Lair upgrade for those all important Hydralisk or Mutalisks. The effects of this change will encourage the use of early game Roaches, especially in ZvZ but may negatively affect the balance of ZvP.
Candidate 2:
Centrifugal Hooks
150/150 110 seconds
This is a very expensive upgrade. The gas cost of this upgrade alone would be able to fund 6 banelings. In addition, banelings are something you get as a do-or-die reaction, it is not very often in the early game that a player commits to using banelings in their army (unless they are doing a bust, in which case they would rather have 6 more banelings). I feel this is a safe upgrade to move from tier 2 to tier 1 without impacting the balance of the game, but at the same giving options to more creative players than I.
Is this shifting content from tier 2 to tier 1 viable way of adding variety to the Zerg early game and if so, did I make the right choices in terms of things to transfer over?
EDIT: weird formatting mistakes
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Just by itself moving overlord speed to Hatchery instead of Lair would solve SOOOO many of Zerg's problems.
The other two would be welcome though in order to add some more options for early Zerg other than macroing and defending in order to tech to viable upgrades at lair.
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Personally I think roach speed should be tier 1 and roaches in general should be buffed.
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i seriously think tier 1 burrow would create a new tier 1 dynamic and add some variety 
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Though I won't even start to consider balance, I do actually like these ideas... However, Blizzard must have thought of this as well and probably have good reasons for not changing it.
But man, I would love my early roaches to be a bit faster.. 
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On September 06 2010 07:28 Slipspace wrote:i seriously think tier 1 burrow would create a new tier 1 dynamic and add some variety
BW had tier 1 burrow and no one used it. I don't think tier 1 burrow would help unupgraded roaches that much to revolutionize any match up.
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On September 06 2010 07:24 nafta wrote:
Personally I think roach speed should be tier 1 and roaches in general should be buffed.
You know im 99% sure that in phase 1 of the beta roach speed was hatchery tech, it got moved to lair with no reason, and I allways wondered why... but im really sure it was once hatchery tech, and it pissed me off ever since that it's not anymore.
there was 3 roach upgrades back then and im sure there was one for each tier...
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I am decently ranked Diamond player, but I am not going to pretend that I have any clue how would these changes will be utilized by the higher level players. I respect you infinitely for saying that.
Regardless, I think ALL of them might be a bit much, but one or two would be fine. Then again, as you said, it might make Dimaga literally unstoppable. Assuming he's playing Zerg. >.>
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On September 06 2010 07:30 Salvarias wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:24 nafta wrote:
Personally I think roach speed should be tier 1 and roaches in general should be buffed. You know im 99% sure that in phase 1 of the beta roach speed was hatchery tech, it got moved to lair with no reason, and I allways wondered why... but im really sure it was once hatchery tech, and it pissed me off ever since that it's not anymore. there was 3 roach upgrades back then and im sure there was one for each tier...
The main complaint of Zerg players these days is the LACK of variety. Roaches in Phase 1 were the definition of an OP unit. While a buff may be in order, I think roaches are a LOT stronger than people give them credit for. The issue is that it requires really small timing windows, and we don't know the timing windows for every Terran build yet.
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On September 06 2010 07:33 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:30 Salvarias wrote:On September 06 2010 07:24 nafta wrote:
Personally I think roach speed should be tier 1 and roaches in general should be buffed. You know im 99% sure that in phase 1 of the beta roach speed was hatchery tech, it got moved to lair with no reason, and I allways wondered why... but im really sure it was once hatchery tech, and it pissed me off ever since that it's not anymore. there was 3 roach upgrades back then and im sure there was one for each tier... The main complaint of Zerg players these days is the LACK of variety. Roaches in Phase 1 were the definition of an OP unit. While a buff may be in order, I think roaches are a LOT stronger than people give them credit for. The issue is that it requires really small timing windows, and we don't know the timing windows for every Terran build yet.
you mean the none existing window with a 25 second ultra cheap tech lap on a early barrack for marauders ?
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On September 06 2010 07:29 AssuredVacancy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:28 Slipspace wrote:i seriously think tier 1 burrow would create a new tier 1 dynamic and add some variety BW had tier 1 burrow and no one used it. I don't think tier 1 burrow would help unupgraded roaches that much to revolutionize any match up.
BW didn't have banelings or higher passive health regen on burrowed roaches (they do regen a bit faster, even without the upgrade).
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burrow to tier1 and make blings able to move underground.
Burrowed blings are good, but rely too much on the opponent making mistakes.
and overseers should be available on t1 as well, then Z could actually stay on t1 longer without autoloss 2 cloaked banshees and they'd have decent scouting-options.
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On September 06 2010 07:35 kickinhead wrote:
burrow to tier1 and make blings able to move underground.
Burrowed blings are good, but rely too much on the opponent making mistakes.
and overseers should be available on t1 as well, then Z could actually stay on t1 longer without autoloss 2 cloaked banshees and they'd have decent scouting-options.
i definitely don't think those would be good changes
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I completely agree with your suggested changes.
If anyone suggests rushing to lair tech, I'd like to preemptively point out that this isn't really viable, because we can't wall off, nor is there any advantage to fighting at chokes (lings&roaches don't perform terribly well in chokes), which basically ensures 1-dimensional, boring early games, that all center around lings/blings, or the 5rr.
So yea, you make a good case. Spice up the zerg early game, please!
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On September 06 2010 07:37 Slipspace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:35 kickinhead wrote:
burrow to tier1 and make blings able to move underground.
Burrowed blings are good, but rely too much on the opponent making mistakes.
and overseers should be available on t1 as well, then Z could actually stay on t1 longer without autoloss 2 cloaked banshees and they'd have decent scouting-options. i definitely don't think those would be good changes
okay, why?
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On September 06 2010 07:35 kickinhead wrote:
burrow to tier1 and make blings able to move underground.
Burrowed blings are good, but rely too much on the opponent making mistakes.
and overseers should be available on t1 as well, then Z could actually stay on t1 longer without autoloss 2 cloaked banshees and they'd have decent scouting-options.
Noooo.
If you don't tech to something with detection, no matter your race, you should get punished for it. For Terran that means you have to get an ebay and turrets, for Protoss a forge and cannons, and for zerg a evo chamber and and sporecrawlers.
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roach and baneling speed on t1 = great.
I really cant see the justification roach speed is t2. Baneling i can see argument for.
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tier one burrow would be a very hudge change...especially when you dont have that many units so you can micro them well..you could kill 5 stalkers with about 3 or 4 roaches if you micro them well and they would have full hp in the end..and toss would not have any detection... bad idea
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On September 06 2010 07:34 Salvarias wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:33 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:30 Salvarias wrote:On September 06 2010 07:24 nafta wrote:
Personally I think roach speed should be tier 1 and roaches in general should be buffed. You know im 99% sure that in phase 1 of the beta roach speed was hatchery tech, it got moved to lair with no reason, and I allways wondered why... but im really sure it was once hatchery tech, and it pissed me off ever since that it's not anymore. there was 3 roach upgrades back then and im sure there was one for each tier... The main complaint of Zerg players these days is the LACK of variety. Roaches in Phase 1 were the definition of an OP unit. While a buff may be in order, I think roaches are a LOT stronger than people give them credit for. The issue is that it requires really small timing windows, and we don't know the timing windows for every Terran build yet. you mean the none existing window with a 25 second ultra cheap tech lap on a early barrack for marauders ?
I see new attacks ALL the time. Like every time I see a good zerg play, I'm amazed at the cute timings that exist. If you look at "oh he's got marauders, I'm screwed with roaches" mentality, then sure, zerg is UP. But if you say "Oh, I've got thirty roaches, and he has five marauders, I win." then you've got something powerful. These things exist, just people are often too afraid to try them out. You don't discover timings by macroing, you discover them by trying random attacks.
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On September 06 2010 07:44 crms wrote:
roach and baneling speed on t1 = great.
I really cant see the justification roach speed is t2. Baneling i can see argument for.
The argument is pushes. I'd imagine that Terran literally couldn't expand with tier one roach speed.
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A huge YES to pneumatized carapace.
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On September 06 2010 07:46 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:34 Salvarias wrote:On September 06 2010 07:33 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:30 Salvarias wrote:On September 06 2010 07:24 nafta wrote:
Personally I think roach speed should be tier 1 and roaches in general should be buffed. You know im 99% sure that in phase 1 of the beta roach speed was hatchery tech, it got moved to lair with no reason, and I allways wondered why... but im really sure it was once hatchery tech, and it pissed me off ever since that it's not anymore. there was 3 roach upgrades back then and im sure there was one for each tier... The main complaint of Zerg players these days is the LACK of variety. Roaches in Phase 1 were the definition of an OP unit. While a buff may be in order, I think roaches are a LOT stronger than people give them credit for. The issue is that it requires really small timing windows, and we don't know the timing windows for every Terran build yet. you mean the none existing window with a 25 second ultra cheap tech lap on a early barrack for marauders ? I see new attacks ALL the time. Like every time I see a good zerg play, I'm amazed at the cute timings that exist. If you look at "oh he's got marauders, I'm screwed with roaches" mentality, then sure, zerg is UP. But if you say "Oh, I've got thirty roaches, and he has five marauders, I win." then you've got something powerful. These things exist, just people are often too afraid to try them out. You don't discover timings by macroing, you discover them by trying random attacks.
If Z has 30 roaches and you have 5 marauders, you're doing something wrong lol just to throw that out there.
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On September 06 2010 07:42 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:35 kickinhead wrote:
burrow to tier1 and make blings able to move underground.
Burrowed blings are good, but rely too much on the opponent making mistakes.
and overseers should be available on t1 as well, then Z could actually stay on t1 longer without autoloss 2 cloaked banshees and they'd have decent scouting-options. Noooo. If you don't tech to something with detection, no matter your race, you should get punished for it. For Terran that means you have to get an ebay and turrets, for Protoss a forge and cannons, and for zerg a evo chamber and and sporecrawlers.
you realize that spore crawlers are horrible against banshees? you need way too many to cover your 2bases, so Z has to fasttech to liar for detection, while Z has almost no threat to force the Terran into making anything with detection.
Besides, in BW, overlords automatically were detectors and stuff like DT'S or cloaked Wraihs didn't get out any later as in sc2 AND Z could actually punish the opponent for fastteching...
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On September 06 2010 07:49 Merikh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:46 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:34 Salvarias wrote:On September 06 2010 07:33 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:30 Salvarias wrote:On September 06 2010 07:24 nafta wrote:
Personally I think roach speed should be tier 1 and roaches in general should be buffed. You know im 99% sure that in phase 1 of the beta roach speed was hatchery tech, it got moved to lair with no reason, and I allways wondered why... but im really sure it was once hatchery tech, and it pissed me off ever since that it's not anymore. there was 3 roach upgrades back then and im sure there was one for each tier... The main complaint of Zerg players these days is the LACK of variety. Roaches in Phase 1 were the definition of an OP unit. While a buff may be in order, I think roaches are a LOT stronger than people give them credit for. The issue is that it requires really small timing windows, and we don't know the timing windows for every Terran build yet. you mean the none existing window with a 25 second ultra cheap tech lap on a early barrack for marauders ? I see new attacks ALL the time. Like every time I see a good zerg play, I'm amazed at the cute timings that exist. If you look at "oh he's got marauders, I'm screwed with roaches" mentality, then sure, zerg is UP. But if you say "Oh, I've got thirty roaches, and he has five marauders, I win." then you've got something powerful. These things exist, just people are often too afraid to try them out. You don't discover timings by macroing, you discover them by trying random attacks. If Z has 30 roaches and you have 5 marauders, you're doing something wrong lol just to throw that out there.
Not necessarily. Let's say you do a one rax FE and lose an early skirmish. Then you don't get tech labs up fast enough. That sort of thing happens. Or, for example, the Terran goes 3-5 rax reapers, and the zerg gets roach speed surprisingly quickly and pushes on a small map. It's not out of the question.
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On September 06 2010 07:47 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:44 crms wrote:
roach and baneling speed on t1 = great.
I really cant see the justification roach speed is t2. Baneling i can see argument for. The argument is pushes. I'd imagine that Terran literally couldn't expand with tier one roach speed.
So what you're saying is that if zerg goes a heavy 1base T1 army with roaches, Terran won't be able to fast expand against it?
I would think that's how it should be. The very fact you're even arguing against it is sheer evidence of your tremendous bias.
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On September 06 2010 07:50 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:42 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:35 kickinhead wrote:
burrow to tier1 and make blings able to move underground.
Burrowed blings are good, but rely too much on the opponent making mistakes.
and overseers should be available on t1 as well, then Z could actually stay on t1 longer without autoloss 2 cloaked banshees and they'd have decent scouting-options. Noooo. If you don't tech to something with detection, no matter your race, you should get punished for it. For Terran that means you have to get an ebay and turrets, for Protoss a forge and cannons, and for zerg a evo chamber and and sporecrawlers. you realize that spore crawlers are horrible against banshees? you need way too many to cover your 2bases, so Z has to fasttech to liar for detection, while Z has almost no threat to force the Terran into making anything with detection. Besides, in BW, overlords automatically were detectors and stuff like DT'S or cloaked Wraihs didn't get out any later as in sc2 AND Z could actually punish the opponent for fastteching... This isn't BW. Like you said, you didn't need detection as much. Also, due to the maps, zergs WERE still punished by cloacked units as their bases were more spread out.
As for spore crawlers and the like, that's an individual case thing. The point, which you ignored, was that you should be punished for not teching and the way that's done is through the lack of detection. Spore Crawlers may need a buff. I dunno. That's just the way this game works, and the way it SHOULD work. I don't want a game where someone can literally stay on tier one for long periods of time.
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On September 06 2010 07:52 StupidFatHobbit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:47 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:44 crms wrote:
roach and baneling speed on t1 = great.
I really cant see the justification roach speed is t2. Baneling i can see argument for. The argument is pushes. I'd imagine that Terran literally couldn't expand with tier one roach speed. So what you're saying is that if zerg goes a heavy 1base T1 army with roaches, Terran won't be able to fast expand against it? I would think that's how it should be. The very fact you're even arguing against it is sheer evidence of your tremendous bias.
I'm not saying it's a valid argument, I'm saying that's what the argument is. I think it WOULD be fine, but most people, likely including Blizzard, disagree.
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United States7166 Posts
players just need to get over their mental roadblocks that tell them they cant tech to lair quicker than they have been
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On September 06 2010 07:52 StupidFatHobbit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:47 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:44 crms wrote:
roach and baneling speed on t1 = great.
I really cant see the justification roach speed is t2. Baneling i can see argument for. The argument is pushes. I'd imagine that Terran literally couldn't expand with tier one roach speed. So what you're saying is that if zerg goes a heavy 1base T1 army with roaches, Terran won't be able to fast expand against it? I would think that's how it should be. The very fact you're even arguing against it is sheer evidence of your tremendous bias.
True!
And Z would commit to an almost all-in-strat that can easily die to marauders or banshees. I don't even think 1 or even 2-base roaches with speed would be a "good" build, but you could maybe punish some greedy Terrans.
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People don't upgrade attack/armour pre-Lair.
How would you have the time or resources to do this?
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On September 06 2010 07:47 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:44 crms wrote:
roach and baneling speed on t1 = great.
I really cant see the justification roach speed is t2. Baneling i can see argument for. The argument is pushes. I'd imagine that Terran literally couldn't expand with tier one roach speed.
You think even with a few bunkers/marauders it would be impossible because the roaches have speed?
Keep in mind concussive shells is cheaper than roach speed to begin with.
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On September 06 2010 07:46 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:34 Salvarias wrote:On September 06 2010 07:33 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:30 Salvarias wrote:On September 06 2010 07:24 nafta wrote:
Personally I think roach speed should be tier 1 and roaches in general should be buffed. You know im 99% sure that in phase 1 of the beta roach speed was hatchery tech, it got moved to lair with no reason, and I allways wondered why... but im really sure it was once hatchery tech, and it pissed me off ever since that it's not anymore. there was 3 roach upgrades back then and im sure there was one for each tier... The main complaint of Zerg players these days is the LACK of variety. Roaches in Phase 1 were the definition of an OP unit. While a buff may be in order, I think roaches are a LOT stronger than people give them credit for. The issue is that it requires really small timing windows, and we don't know the timing windows for every Terran build yet. you mean the none existing window with a 25 second ultra cheap tech lap on a early barrack for marauders ? I see new attacks ALL the time. Like every time I see a good zerg play, I'm amazed at the cute timings that exist. If you look at "oh he's got marauders, I'm screwed with roaches" mentality, then sure, zerg is UP. But if you say "Oh, I've got thirty roaches, and he has five marauders, I win." then you've got something powerful. These things exist, just people are often too afraid to try them out. You don't discover timings by macroing, you discover them by trying random attacks.
There's never going to be a situation where the Z has 30 roaches and the T has 5 Marauder.
Roaches are crap. They don't work. Trust me, I've tried. The only use they have is defending versus Reaper harass and even then Reapers outrun and out-range Roaches.
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On September 06 2010 07:55 MythicalMage wrote:
I don't want a game where someone can literally stay on tier one for long periods of time.
But you have to stay on t1 for a while.
Zerg can't wall off, so small armies can't win battles like they can with toss/terran. You don't get the benefit of being able to snipe units, stuck on a choke point, trying to burn down a wall. Instead, you need an army of equal size or greater to match up against any early aggression. That seems to be the reason we want more early game options.
Alternatively, blizzard could just make some units FREE with lair tech, like hydras. Or they could introduce some effective means of protecting your base without the need for a large army.
The bottom line is that fast teching isn't as viable for zerg as it may be for the other races. I wish that would change, personally, but blizzard seems to think the game is balanced as it stands.
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On September 06 2010 08:01 Andtwo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:47 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:44 crms wrote:
roach and baneling speed on t1 = great.
I really cant see the justification roach speed is t2. Baneling i can see argument for. The argument is pushes. I'd imagine that Terran literally couldn't expand with tier one roach speed. You think even with a few bunkers/marauders it would be impossible because the roaches have speed? Keep in mind concussive shells is cheaper than roach speed to begin with.
I was thinking of something like a gasless expansion, one rax FE and the like. A well timed reaper build or something similar would likely fair reasonably well.
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On September 06 2010 07:59 Fantistic wrote:
People don't upgrade attack/armour pre-Lair.
How would you have the time or resources to do this?
/agreed.
Non-zergs seem to think Z has all those random piles of ressources lying around, but for Z to be able to defend, macro and tech, Z's builds are very tight early on in the game.
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I was thinking about this the other day, the problem isn't that tech is behind the lair/hive wall, it is that that jump takes too much time. What would happen to the game if lair and hive had their build times cut in half? That would allow any lair tech to get up potentially 30 seconds earlier, and any hive tech 1 minute earlier. The same amount of resources would be behind the build, but the option would be open to have a speed roach push come just a bit earlier, or a slightly earlier muta build, or a slightly earlier overseer for scouting, or an earlier nydus if you can get the gas for it, etc.
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I believe that if burrow would be avaible at hatchery tech zerg players would be able to start using many of the unique traits that the tier one units have:
1. Roaches- even though they wont be able to move their health will regenerate and you can save your roaches for bigger armys.
2. Banelings- BOMBS. Just with these early barracks units and sentries and zealots would take huge damage before encountering the rest of your army or static defences.
3. Lings- early scouting for army positions or denying expos.
4. Drones and Queees- Denying hellions or reapers from getting kills simply buy burrowing in advance instead of trying to run..
All of these would help fend off early game were currently zerg feel the weakest.
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On September 06 2010 08:03 Fantistic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:46 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:34 Salvarias wrote:On September 06 2010 07:33 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:30 Salvarias wrote:On September 06 2010 07:24 nafta wrote:
Personally I think roach speed should be tier 1 and roaches in general should be buffed. You know im 99% sure that in phase 1 of the beta roach speed was hatchery tech, it got moved to lair with no reason, and I allways wondered why... but im really sure it was once hatchery tech, and it pissed me off ever since that it's not anymore. there was 3 roach upgrades back then and im sure there was one for each tier... The main complaint of Zerg players these days is the LACK of variety. Roaches in Phase 1 were the definition of an OP unit. While a buff may be in order, I think roaches are a LOT stronger than people give them credit for. The issue is that it requires really small timing windows, and we don't know the timing windows for every Terran build yet. you mean the none existing window with a 25 second ultra cheap tech lap on a early barrack for marauders ? I see new attacks ALL the time. Like every time I see a good zerg play, I'm amazed at the cute timings that exist. If you look at "oh he's got marauders, I'm screwed with roaches" mentality, then sure, zerg is UP. But if you say "Oh, I've got thirty roaches, and he has five marauders, I win." then you've got something powerful. These things exist, just people are often too afraid to try them out. You don't discover timings by macroing, you discover them by trying random attacks. There's never going to be a situation where the Z has 30 roaches and the T has 5 Marauder. Roaches are crap. They don't work. Trust me, I've tried. The only use they have is defending versus Reaper harass and even then Reapers outrun and out-range Roaches. Because you're a pro player. I don't care about anecdotal experience. I care about what I have seen pro players do. Pros matter infinitely more to me than your opinion, and if a pro can do that push, then it works, to me. You opinion is apparently different.
Also of note: on creep, speed roaches are FASTER than speed reapers.
On September 06 2010 08:03 Zips wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:55 MythicalMage wrote:
I don't want a game where someone can literally stay on tier one for long periods of time. But you have to stay on t1 for a while. Zerg can't wall off, so small armies can't win battles like they can with toss/terran. You don't get the benefit of being able to snipe units, stuck on a choke point, trying to burn down a wall. Instead, you need an army of equal size or greater to match up against any early aggression. That seems to be the reason we want more early game options. Alternatively, blizzard could just make some units FREE with lair tech, like hydras. Or they could introduce some effective means of protecting your base without the need for a large army. The bottom line is that fast teching isn't as viable for zerg as it may be for the other races. I wish that would change, personally, but blizzard seems to think the game is balanced as it stands.
Well, what I meant is that I don't want it to be ~20 minutes into the game where the zerg or any other race doesn't have lair/tech, and is in no danger of cloaked/burrowed units.
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On September 06 2010 07:58 Zelniq wrote:
players just need to get over their mental roadblocks that tell them they cant tech to lair quicker than they have been
definitely
People like to mention differences between sc2 and broodwar but then they forget that in BW lair was always your first 100 gas against terran (even before speed).
Even if it's necessary to get speed first in SC2, that doesn't mean you need to make 2 queens before getting lair.
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Baneling speed upgrade should not require a lair. That's one change I would like to see.
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On September 06 2010 08:08 csfield wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:58 Zelniq wrote:
players just need to get over their mental roadblocks that tell them they cant tech to lair quicker than they have been definitely People like to mention differences between sc2 and broodwar but then they forget that in BW lair was always your first 100 gas against terran (even before speed). Even if it's necessary to get speed first in SC2, that doesn't mean you need to make 2 queens before getting lair.
It feels like zerg relies the most on super precise timings. In an interview, Madfrog spoke on this, effectively saying that we don't know the timings that will make zerg super formidable.
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My biggest hope for zerg is that we get burrow trained at the hatchery and roach regen activated at the lair like overlord creep.
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Small mistake in the op:
you have candidate 2 for both glial reconstitution and centrifugal hooks
Other than that, I would love to see candidate one implemented
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On September 06 2010 07:46 Effect010 wrote:
tier one burrow would be a very hudge change...especially when you dont have that many units so you can micro them well..you could kill 5 stalkers with about 3 or 4 roaches if you micro them well and they would have full hp in the end..and toss would not have any detection... bad idea
see, this type of thinking is just wrong
as it stands, in reverse positions 3-4 stalkers could kill an infinite number of roaches at tier 1, but thats fine
it would NOT break the game
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On September 06 2010 08:08 csfield wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:58 Zelniq wrote:
players just need to get over their mental roadblocks that tell them they cant tech to lair quicker than they have been People like to mention differences between sc2 and broodwar but then they forget that in BW lair was always your first 100 gas against terran (even before speed). Even if it's necessary to get speed first in SC2, that doesn't mean you need to make 2 queens before getting lair.
Hrm, this intrigues me.
Okay, so I just tested it out, my BO was 14 gas 13 pool, lair when pool finished (which was when I had 100 gas), roach warren at 18, and ovie at 18: and I was able to get 3 roaches out at 4:45 seconds.
Roach movement speed finished at 6:25, with 7 roaches out and 1 in que, and an expo half finished building.
Pretty sure I could tighten this up and have more roaches, too.. in fact i'm sure of that, because I started queen late and had a glut of minerals which I could have used on gas.
At 8 minutes I had 2 hatches + 18 roaches with burrow and movement.
I dunno, maybe you could be on to something. What do you guys think?
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While I like all 3 options, Candidate 1 (Overlord Speed) is the one I support the most. You bring up the pros and cons of it, and I definitely don't think it would be unbalanced when there are still so many other options the Zerg player could take. Zerg NEEDS to get a quicker ability to scout, especially at the early to mid game transition, which is usually when Overlord Speed is just starting to get researched.
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Overlord speed is nice because it zergs have a real internal struggle early- army or econ? Terran and Protoss do NOT have to deal with this the way zergs do, and can't truly understand how taxing that struggle is. Being able to upgrade OL speed earlier allows you to scout the map better, and that helps you decide whether you need to army up, or you can safely econ.
I think, in all honesty, I'd much prefer to see overseers morphable at hatchery. It allows you to still train your queen, it's 1-off meaning if it dies, it dies, but it also opens up the option to go more macro vs terran. If I do not see earlier aggression from a terran, 9/10 he's going for banshees and I have to race to lair because spore crawlers are just too expensive as detectors.
As far as baneling speed- I think it'd be overpowered (I'm zerg) because early on the only thing that really counters banelings is micro OR weak to zerglings (stalkers, mauraders, roaches.) With baneling speed, you take away the micro option. I do understand the gas demands would be heavy, baneling speed is expensive, but I still think it could make banelings a little too good in controlling the map and forcing your opponent to "turtle up."
Roach speed, I see that being a little more balanced, and it could help versus early aggression from the protoss. However, with the zealot build nerf coming up I don't see the 2-gate zealot spam being as brutal for zerg to deal with so I'm not sure what roach speed really does. Make it either to defend against mass reapers? Make them more usable on offense? Not sure I see the point- you'll have to get yourself to lair fairly quickly anyways to counter air, because queens cannot be effectively used on offense and are a bit limited when you are ping-ponging them between bases to defend.
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Tier 1 Centrifugal hooks would be...bad I think. The upgrade is pretty expensive, but having banelings with speed would be really devastating against early-game terran bio-play.
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On September 06 2010 08:08 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 08:03 Fantistic wrote:On September 06 2010 07:46 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:34 Salvarias wrote:On September 06 2010 07:33 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:30 Salvarias wrote:On September 06 2010 07:24 nafta wrote:
Personally I think roach speed should be tier 1 and roaches in general should be buffed. You know im 99% sure that in phase 1 of the beta roach speed was hatchery tech, it got moved to lair with no reason, and I allways wondered why... but im really sure it was once hatchery tech, and it pissed me off ever since that it's not anymore. there was 3 roach upgrades back then and im sure there was one for each tier... The main complaint of Zerg players these days is the LACK of variety. Roaches in Phase 1 were the definition of an OP unit. While a buff may be in order, I think roaches are a LOT stronger than people give them credit for. The issue is that it requires really small timing windows, and we don't know the timing windows for every Terran build yet. you mean the none existing window with a 25 second ultra cheap tech lap on a early barrack for marauders ? I see new attacks ALL the time. Like every time I see a good zerg play, I'm amazed at the cute timings that exist. If you look at "oh he's got marauders, I'm screwed with roaches" mentality, then sure, zerg is UP. But if you say "Oh, I've got thirty roaches, and he has five marauders, I win." then you've got something powerful. These things exist, just people are often too afraid to try them out. You don't discover timings by macroing, you discover them by trying random attacks. There's never going to be a situation where the Z has 30 roaches and the T has 5 Marauder. Roaches are crap. They don't work. Trust me, I've tried. The only use they have is defending versus Reaper harass and even then Reapers outrun and out-range Roaches. Because you're a pro player. I don't care about anecdotal experience. I care about what I have seen pro players do. Pros matter infinitely more to me than your opinion, and if a pro can do that push, then it works, to me. You opinion is apparently different. Also of note: on creep, speed roaches are FASTER than speed reapers.
You're discarding my opinion because I don't get paid to play. 99% of the users on TL don't get paid either. Your loss.
Read what I'm saying and you'll learn something.
Also of note: on creep, speed roaches are FASTER than speed reapers.
By the time a Z can research the Roach speed upgrade, Reapers aren't being produced anymore anyway as they aren't worth the investment because they can't do anymore successful economical harassment damage. Therefore, Roach speed isn't worth the investment either unless the Z has overproduced them which he shouldn't have done in the first place.
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On September 06 2010 08:57 Fantistic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 08:08 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 08:03 Fantistic wrote:On September 06 2010 07:46 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:34 Salvarias wrote:On September 06 2010 07:33 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:30 Salvarias wrote:On September 06 2010 07:24 nafta wrote:
Personally I think roach speed should be tier 1 and roaches in general should be buffed. You know im 99% sure that in phase 1 of the beta roach speed was hatchery tech, it got moved to lair with no reason, and I allways wondered why... but im really sure it was once hatchery tech, and it pissed me off ever since that it's not anymore. there was 3 roach upgrades back then and im sure there was one for each tier... The main complaint of Zerg players these days is the LACK of variety. Roaches in Phase 1 were the definition of an OP unit. While a buff may be in order, I think roaches are a LOT stronger than people give them credit for. The issue is that it requires really small timing windows, and we don't know the timing windows for every Terran build yet. you mean the none existing window with a 25 second ultra cheap tech lap on a early barrack for marauders ? I see new attacks ALL the time. Like every time I see a good zerg play, I'm amazed at the cute timings that exist. If you look at "oh he's got marauders, I'm screwed with roaches" mentality, then sure, zerg is UP. But if you say "Oh, I've got thirty roaches, and he has five marauders, I win." then you've got something powerful. These things exist, just people are often too afraid to try them out. You don't discover timings by macroing, you discover them by trying random attacks. There's never going to be a situation where the Z has 30 roaches and the T has 5 Marauder. Roaches are crap. They don't work. Trust me, I've tried. The only use they have is defending versus Reaper harass and even then Reapers outrun and out-range Roaches. Because you're a pro player. I don't care about anecdotal experience. I care about what I have seen pro players do. Pros matter infinitely more to me than your opinion, and if a pro can do that push, then it works, to me. You opinion is apparently different. Also of note: on creep, speed roaches are FASTER than speed reapers. You're discarding my opinion because I don't get paid to play. 99% of the users on TL don't get paid either. Your loss. Read what I'm saying and you'll learn something. Also of note: on creep, speed roaches are FASTER than speed reapers.By the time a Z can research the Roach speed upgrade, Reapers aren't being produced anymore anyway as they aren't worth the investment because they can't do anymore successful economical harassment damage. Therefore, Roach speed isn't worth the investment either unless the Z has overproduced them which he shouldn't have done in the first place.
I don't care what most of the people on TL think either. My primary concern is the competitive/esports scene of this game. You saying "X doesn't work" doesn't mean much when I've seen a pro player do it on several occasions. I can say "Templar are UP" because I suck at placing storms, and it means nothing. I can say "banelings are OP" because I suck at microing my infantry back, when in fact they're perfectly fine. And being paid to play wasn't exactly what I meant. I mean that you are at a pro level. Day9 is at a pro level, but isn't paid to play.
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On September 06 2010 07:16 Sirot wrote:As an example, when a Terran players finishes researching Stimpack and moves out with his or her Marine/Marauder composition, the Terran player gains the ability to do a powerful timing attack. Both Protoss and Terran usually can gain access to the upgrades to their units very shortly after getting access to that specific unit.
I dont agree with this your three first main upgrades are available for tier one units melee, range and carapace these are your staple upgrades. The same as for Terran and Protoss as long as you build and engineering bay, forge or evolution chamber. The more specialist upgrades that vastly change how a unit behaves rather than its attack, armour etc are at least for protoss at higher levels (blink and charge you need a twilight council). The only one i can think of off the top of my head that is available is hallucinate for the 1.5 tier sentry and well warpgate. Yes there are air upgrades in the cyber core but arent much use till you build stargates anyway.
You may have a point with terran though. From a protoss point of view dealing with stim early is nasty and I feel it would be the same for fast overlord drops and speed roaches too especially considering that zealots build time is being increased. Getting burrow way before Protoss could build a robo facility and observer would be ridiculous though.
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On September 06 2010 09:03 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 08:57 Fantistic wrote:On September 06 2010 08:08 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 08:03 Fantistic wrote:On September 06 2010 07:46 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:34 Salvarias wrote:On September 06 2010 07:33 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:30 Salvarias wrote:On September 06 2010 07:24 nafta wrote:
Personally I think roach speed should be tier 1 and roaches in general should be buffed. You know im 99% sure that in phase 1 of the beta roach speed was hatchery tech, it got moved to lair with no reason, and I allways wondered why... but im really sure it was once hatchery tech, and it pissed me off ever since that it's not anymore. there was 3 roach upgrades back then and im sure there was one for each tier... The main complaint of Zerg players these days is the LACK of variety. Roaches in Phase 1 were the definition of an OP unit. While a buff may be in order, I think roaches are a LOT stronger than people give them credit for. The issue is that it requires really small timing windows, and we don't know the timing windows for every Terran build yet. you mean the none existing window with a 25 second ultra cheap tech lap on a early barrack for marauders ? I see new attacks ALL the time. Like every time I see a good zerg play, I'm amazed at the cute timings that exist. If you look at "oh he's got marauders, I'm screwed with roaches" mentality, then sure, zerg is UP. But if you say "Oh, I've got thirty roaches, and he has five marauders, I win." then you've got something powerful. These things exist, just people are often too afraid to try them out. You don't discover timings by macroing, you discover them by trying random attacks. There's never going to be a situation where the Z has 30 roaches and the T has 5 Marauder. Roaches are crap. They don't work. Trust me, I've tried. The only use they have is defending versus Reaper harass and even then Reapers outrun and out-range Roaches. Because you're a pro player. I don't care about anecdotal experience. I care about what I have seen pro players do. Pros matter infinitely more to me than your opinion, and if a pro can do that push, then it works, to me. You opinion is apparently different. Also of note: on creep, speed roaches are FASTER than speed reapers. You're discarding my opinion because I don't get paid to play. 99% of the users on TL don't get paid either. Your loss. Read what I'm saying and you'll learn something. Also of note: on creep, speed roaches are FASTER than speed reapers.By the time a Z can research the Roach speed upgrade, Reapers aren't being produced anymore anyway as they aren't worth the investment because they can't do anymore successful economical harassment damage. Therefore, Roach speed isn't worth the investment either unless the Z has overproduced them which he shouldn't have done in the first place. I don't care what most of the people on TL think either. My primary concern is the competitive/esports scene of this game. You saying "X doesn't work" doesn't mean much when I've seen a pro player do it on several occasions. I can say "Templar are UP" because I suck at placing storms, and it means nothing. I can say "banelings are OP" because I suck at microing my infantry back, when in fact they're perfectly fine. And being paid to play wasn't exactly what I meant. I mean that you are at a pro level. Day9 is at a pro level, but isn't paid to play.
You've lost me now.
"Because you're a pro player." wasn't sarcasm?
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On September 06 2010 09:11 Fantistic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 09:03 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 08:57 Fantistic wrote:On September 06 2010 08:08 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 08:03 Fantistic wrote:On September 06 2010 07:46 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:34 Salvarias wrote:On September 06 2010 07:33 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:30 Salvarias wrote:On September 06 2010 07:24 nafta wrote:
Personally I think roach speed should be tier 1 and roaches in general should be buffed. You know im 99% sure that in phase 1 of the beta roach speed was hatchery tech, it got moved to lair with no reason, and I allways wondered why... but im really sure it was once hatchery tech, and it pissed me off ever since that it's not anymore. there was 3 roach upgrades back then and im sure there was one for each tier... The main complaint of Zerg players these days is the LACK of variety. Roaches in Phase 1 were the definition of an OP unit. While a buff may be in order, I think roaches are a LOT stronger than people give them credit for. The issue is that it requires really small timing windows, and we don't know the timing windows for every Terran build yet. you mean the none existing window with a 25 second ultra cheap tech lap on a early barrack for marauders ? I see new attacks ALL the time. Like every time I see a good zerg play, I'm amazed at the cute timings that exist. If you look at "oh he's got marauders, I'm screwed with roaches" mentality, then sure, zerg is UP. But if you say "Oh, I've got thirty roaches, and he has five marauders, I win." then you've got something powerful. These things exist, just people are often too afraid to try them out. You don't discover timings by macroing, you discover them by trying random attacks. There's never going to be a situation where the Z has 30 roaches and the T has 5 Marauder. Roaches are crap. They don't work. Trust me, I've tried. The only use they have is defending versus Reaper harass and even then Reapers outrun and out-range Roaches. Because you're a pro player. I don't care about anecdotal experience. I care about what I have seen pro players do. Pros matter infinitely more to me than your opinion, and if a pro can do that push, then it works, to me. You opinion is apparently different. Also of note: on creep, speed roaches are FASTER than speed reapers. You're discarding my opinion because I don't get paid to play. 99% of the users on TL don't get paid either. Your loss. Read what I'm saying and you'll learn something. Also of note: on creep, speed roaches are FASTER than speed reapers.By the time a Z can research the Roach speed upgrade, Reapers aren't being produced anymore anyway as they aren't worth the investment because they can't do anymore successful economical harassment damage. Therefore, Roach speed isn't worth the investment either unless the Z has overproduced them which he shouldn't have done in the first place. I don't care what most of the people on TL think either. My primary concern is the competitive/esports scene of this game. You saying "X doesn't work" doesn't mean much when I've seen a pro player do it on several occasions. I can say "Templar are UP" because I suck at placing storms, and it means nothing. I can say "banelings are OP" because I suck at microing my infantry back, when in fact they're perfectly fine. And being paid to play wasn't exactly what I meant. I mean that you are at a pro level. Day9 is at a pro level, but isn't paid to play. You've lost me now. "Because you're a pro player." wasn't sarcasm? It was. Sorry if I'm a bit confusing. My house is currently one hundred degrees as my AC froze up. >.>
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Overlord speed upgrade is the one I most favour. That ridiculously long period of completely no scouting combined with the 1001 different units Terran can tech to is killer.
On another thought, how about giving all Zerg units burrow innately without research as long as they are on creep? I think it would lead to some extra early game defensive strategies and help Zerg stave off early aggression.
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On September 06 2010 09:14 Cyclon wrote:
Overlord speed upgrade is the one I most favour. That ridiculously long period of completely no scouting combined with the 1001 different units Terran can tech to is killer.
On another thought, how about giving all Zerg units burrow innately without research as long as they are on creep? I think it would lead to some extra early game defensive strategies and help Zerg stave off early aggression.
The issue with that would be that it would make Zerg effectively immune to early game harass, without detection. It's not entirely bad, it stops mining time and whatnot, but it seems pretty abusable.
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On September 06 2010 09:13 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 09:11 Fantistic wrote:On September 06 2010 09:03 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 08:57 Fantistic wrote:On September 06 2010 08:08 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 08:03 Fantistic wrote:On September 06 2010 07:46 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:34 Salvarias wrote:On September 06 2010 07:33 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:30 Salvarias wrote:
[quote]
You know im 99% sure that in phase 1 of the beta roach speed was hatchery tech, it got moved to lair with no reason, and I allways wondered why... but im really sure it was once hatchery tech, and it pissed me off ever since that it's not anymore.
there was 3 roach upgrades back then and im sure there was one for each tier... The main complaint of Zerg players these days is the LACK of variety. Roaches in Phase 1 were the definition of an OP unit. While a buff may be in order, I think roaches are a LOT stronger than people give them credit for. The issue is that it requires really small timing windows, and we don't know the timing windows for every Terran build yet. you mean the none existing window with a 25 second ultra cheap tech lap on a early barrack for marauders ? I see new attacks ALL the time. Like every time I see a good zerg play, I'm amazed at the cute timings that exist. If you look at "oh he's got marauders, I'm screwed with roaches" mentality, then sure, zerg is UP. But if you say "Oh, I've got thirty roaches, and he has five marauders, I win." then you've got something powerful. These things exist, just people are often too afraid to try them out. You don't discover timings by macroing, you discover them by trying random attacks. There's never going to be a situation where the Z has 30 roaches and the T has 5 Marauder. Roaches are crap. They don't work. Trust me, I've tried. The only use they have is defending versus Reaper harass and even then Reapers outrun and out-range Roaches. Because you're a pro player. I don't care about anecdotal experience. I care about what I have seen pro players do. Pros matter infinitely more to me than your opinion, and if a pro can do that push, then it works, to me. You opinion is apparently different. Also of note: on creep, speed roaches are FASTER than speed reapers. You're discarding my opinion because I don't get paid to play. 99% of the users on TL don't get paid either. Your loss. Read what I'm saying and you'll learn something. Also of note: on creep, speed roaches are FASTER than speed reapers.By the time a Z can research the Roach speed upgrade, Reapers aren't being produced anymore anyway as they aren't worth the investment because they can't do anymore successful economical harassment damage. Therefore, Roach speed isn't worth the investment either unless the Z has overproduced them which he shouldn't have done in the first place. I don't care what most of the people on TL think either. My primary concern is the competitive/esports scene of this game. You saying "X doesn't work" doesn't mean much when I've seen a pro player do it on several occasions. I can say "Templar are UP" because I suck at placing storms, and it means nothing. I can say "banelings are OP" because I suck at microing my infantry back, when in fact they're perfectly fine. And being paid to play wasn't exactly what I meant. I mean that you are at a pro level. Day9 is at a pro level, but isn't paid to play. You've lost me now. "Because you're a pro player." wasn't sarcasm? It was. Sorry if I'm a bit confusing. My house is currently one hundred degrees as my AC froze up. >.>
I see you won't read my posts seriously as I'm a "no name" to you so I'll just say this:
Try to think things through yourself rather than relying on what the "pros" are doing. Most of them make a lot of mistakes because the game is still very young so you'll end up copying their mistakes.
Don't take offence to this; it's just advice.
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On September 06 2010 09:21 Fantistic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 09:13 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 09:11 Fantistic wrote:On September 06 2010 09:03 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 08:57 Fantistic wrote:On September 06 2010 08:08 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 08:03 Fantistic wrote:On September 06 2010 07:46 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:34 Salvarias wrote:On September 06 2010 07:33 MythicalMage wrote:
[quote]
The main complaint of Zerg players these days is the LACK of variety. Roaches in Phase 1 were the definition of an OP unit. While a buff may be in order, I think roaches are a LOT stronger than people give them credit for. The issue is that it requires really small timing windows, and we don't know the timing windows for every Terran build yet. you mean the none existing window with a 25 second ultra cheap tech lap on a early barrack for marauders ? I see new attacks ALL the time. Like every time I see a good zerg play, I'm amazed at the cute timings that exist. If you look at "oh he's got marauders, I'm screwed with roaches" mentality, then sure, zerg is UP. But if you say "Oh, I've got thirty roaches, and he has five marauders, I win." then you've got something powerful. These things exist, just people are often too afraid to try them out. You don't discover timings by macroing, you discover them by trying random attacks. There's never going to be a situation where the Z has 30 roaches and the T has 5 Marauder. Roaches are crap. They don't work. Trust me, I've tried. The only use they have is defending versus Reaper harass and even then Reapers outrun and out-range Roaches. Because you're a pro player. I don't care about anecdotal experience. I care about what I have seen pro players do. Pros matter infinitely more to me than your opinion, and if a pro can do that push, then it works, to me. You opinion is apparently different. Also of note: on creep, speed roaches are FASTER than speed reapers. You're discarding my opinion because I don't get paid to play. 99% of the users on TL don't get paid either. Your loss. Read what I'm saying and you'll learn something. Also of note: on creep, speed roaches are FASTER than speed reapers.By the time a Z can research the Roach speed upgrade, Reapers aren't being produced anymore anyway as they aren't worth the investment because they can't do anymore successful economical harassment damage. Therefore, Roach speed isn't worth the investment either unless the Z has overproduced them which he shouldn't have done in the first place. I don't care what most of the people on TL think either. My primary concern is the competitive/esports scene of this game. You saying "X doesn't work" doesn't mean much when I've seen a pro player do it on several occasions. I can say "Templar are UP" because I suck at placing storms, and it means nothing. I can say "banelings are OP" because I suck at microing my infantry back, when in fact they're perfectly fine. And being paid to play wasn't exactly what I meant. I mean that you are at a pro level. Day9 is at a pro level, but isn't paid to play. You've lost me now. "Because you're a pro player." wasn't sarcasm? It was. Sorry if I'm a bit confusing. My house is currently one hundred degrees as my AC froze up. >.> I see you won't read my posts seriously as I'm a "no name" to you so I'll just say this: Try to think things through yourself rather than relying on what the "pros" are doing. Most of them make a lot of mistakes because the game is still very young so you'll end up copying their mistakes. Don't take offence to this; it's just advice. Sure. I've read your posts, just someone saying "you can't do x" when I've seen x be done in a high level game doesn't strike me as accurate.
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I like Overlord Speed at tier1, I think it would solve at least one of Zerg's major problems (Scouting options). If you FE and get Lair at the same time as the OV speed, it could open up a pretty brutal drop timing if you start the Transport tech ASAP. On one base, the timing to get drops wouldn't change since you can't Lair and research at the same time, but on 2 bases, drops could come a good deal faster than the other races if you opt for quick double+ gas.
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On September 06 2010 09:15 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 09:14 Cyclon wrote:
Overlord speed upgrade is the one I most favour. That ridiculously long period of completely no scouting combined with the 1001 different units Terran can tech to is killer.
On another thought, how about giving all Zerg units burrow innately without research as long as they are on creep? I think it would lead to some extra early game defensive strategies and help Zerg stave off early aggression. The issue with that would be that it would make Zerg effectively immune to early game harass, without detection. It's not entirely bad, it stops mining time and whatnot, but it seems pretty abusable.
Hmm immune to early game harass. Sounds a lot like terran to me, and I don't remember anyone saying nerf wall ins because they prevent early game harass.
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On September 06 2010 09:36 AssuredVacancy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 09:15 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 09:14 Cyclon wrote:
Overlord speed upgrade is the one I most favour. That ridiculously long period of completely no scouting combined with the 1001 different units Terran can tech to is killer.
On another thought, how about giving all Zerg units burrow innately without research as long as they are on creep? I think it would lead to some extra early game defensive strategies and help Zerg stave off early aggression. The issue with that would be that it would make Zerg effectively immune to early game harass, without detection. It's not entirely bad, it stops mining time and whatnot, but it seems pretty abusable. Hmm immune to early game harass. Sounds a lot like terran to me, and I don't remember anyone saying nerf wall ins because they prevent early game harass.
Wall ins stop mutalisks? Wall in stop banshees? Wall ins stop reapers? Wall ins stop void rays? /sigh. It amazes me how much people LOVE mentioning the wall in. If there was ANY way for me to win/function without a wallin, I would.(I play random, but I've been favoring Terran and Protoss recently, due to my sucking at zerg mechanics.) I avoid them entirely in the other matchups, but I HAVE to not die to speedlings.
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Glial reconstitution from hatchery please.
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these seem like really fair, and really good changes. please post this on the battle.net forums.
well written, good job.
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On September 06 2010 09:15 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 09:14 Cyclon wrote:
Overlord speed upgrade is the one I most favour. That ridiculously long period of completely no scouting combined with the 1001 different units Terran can tech to is killer.
On another thought, how about giving all Zerg units burrow innately without research as long as they are on creep? I think it would lead to some extra early game defensive strategies and help Zerg stave off early aggression. The issue with that would be that it would make Zerg effectively immune to early game harass, without detection. It's not entirely bad, it stops mining time and whatnot, but it seems pretty abusable.
Zerg would never be immune to harass. If you needed X amount of Zerglings to beat Y units at Z time, and the inherent burrow made them 2x as effective, Zerg players would have the chance to make Y/2 units instead and get an economy boost. Most would probably end up doing this. Its also chancy, Reapers could just never go over them and Hellions are fast enough that you have to time it well.
If you are thinking of Drones being able to burrow, it wouldn't happen since Drones are hover units that don't get any effect from creep anyway.
On September 06 2010 09:40 MythicalMage wrote:
Wall ins stop mutalisks? Wall in stop banshees? Wall ins stop reapers? Wall ins stop void rays? /sigh. It amazes me how much people LOVE mentioning the wall in. If there was ANY way for me to win/function without a wallin, I would.(I play random, but I've been favoring Terran and Protoss recently, due to my sucking at zerg mechanics.) I avoid them entirely in the other matchups, but I HAVE to not die to speedlings.
Well, muta/banshee/void rays all aren't exactly early game harass. Furthermore, the T1 mineral-only unit counters all of them while Zerg has to tech up to T2 to get a reliable unit to shoot air. Reapers are fail against terran because, again, marines. Zerg is really vulnerable to marines. So yes, the wall in pretty much makes you immune to effective early game harass as long as you make a relatively small amount of forces.
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give zerg Tier 1 borrow so that they can have baneling mines
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Give them burrow in tier 1, lets them be offensive a bit.
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On September 06 2010 09:40 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 09:36 AssuredVacancy wrote:On September 06 2010 09:15 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 09:14 Cyclon wrote:
Overlord speed upgrade is the one I most favour. That ridiculously long period of completely no scouting combined with the 1001 different units Terran can tech to is killer.
On another thought, how about giving all Zerg units burrow innately without research as long as they are on creep? I think it would lead to some extra early game defensive strategies and help Zerg stave off early aggression. The issue with that would be that it would make Zerg effectively immune to early game harass, without detection. It's not entirely bad, it stops mining time and whatnot, but it seems pretty abusable. Hmm immune to early game harass. Sounds a lot like terran to me, and I don't remember anyone saying nerf wall ins because they prevent early game harass. Wall ins stop mutalisks? Wall in stop banshees? Wall ins stop reapers? Wall ins stop void rays? /sigh. It amazes me how much people LOVE mentioning the wall in. If there was ANY way for me to win/function without a wallin, I would.(I play random, but I've been favoring Terran and Protoss recently, due to my sucking at zerg mechanics.) I avoid them entirely in the other matchups, but I HAVE to not die to speedlings.
If you count muta/banshee/void rays harass as "early game" by all means.. And you want to discredit stopping all drone mining as a form of harassment, then I don't know what game you're playing. Honestly you're downplaying A LOT on how important the wall in is. The ability to stay inside a wall and tech while having 2 units is incomparable than your so called stopping harass by 'abusing' burrow with drones.
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No offense but MythicalMage u seem very biased.
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On September 06 2010 09:40 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 09:36 AssuredVacancy wrote:On September 06 2010 09:15 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 09:14 Cyclon wrote:
Overlord speed upgrade is the one I most favour. That ridiculously long period of completely no scouting combined with the 1001 different units Terran can tech to is killer.
On another thought, how about giving all Zerg units burrow innately without research as long as they are on creep? I think it would lead to some extra early game defensive strategies and help Zerg stave off early aggression. The issue with that would be that it would make Zerg effectively immune to early game harass, without detection. It's not entirely bad, it stops mining time and whatnot, but it seems pretty abusable. Hmm immune to early game harass. Sounds a lot like terran to me, and I don't remember anyone saying nerf wall ins because they prevent early game harass. Wall ins stop mutalisks? Wall in stop banshees? Wall ins stop reapers? Wall ins stop void rays? /sigh. It amazes me how much people LOVE mentioning the wall in. If there was ANY way for me to win/function without a wallin, I would.(I play random, but I've been favoring Terran and Protoss recently, due to my sucking at zerg mechanics.) I avoid them entirely in the other matchups, but I HAVE to not die to speedlings.
Nobody is blaming terran for walling in to avoid speedling runbys, its the smart thing to do. The point is that people say its completely fine for terran to be immune to early game harass (like zerg has many options for it anyway) but zerg should always be essentially wide open to it (and theres so many different forms it can take from terran). Not really a good standard.
And lets be honest, mutalisks are not early game harass, not even close. Zerg has like 3 options for early game harass. Speedlings (shut down by wall, obv), banelings (generally pretty allin and easily stopped) and early roaches (which will get hosed by a little bit of repair with a bunker behind the wall).
I don't personally agree with innate burrow, but I dislike the idea that terran is immune until zerg can get to spire.
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How about making roaches smaller so more of them can hit things or giving them a +1 range upgrade with the roach speed?
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On September 06 2010 09:15 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 09:14 Cyclon wrote:
Overlord speed upgrade is the one I most favour. That ridiculously long period of completely no scouting combined with the 1001 different units Terran can tech to is killer.
On another thought, how about giving all Zerg units burrow innately without research as long as they are on creep? I think it would lead to some extra early game defensive strategies and help Zerg stave off early aggression. The issue with that would be that it would make Zerg effectively immune to early game harass, without detection. It's not entirely bad, it stops mining time and whatnot, but it seems pretty abusable.
This would give the zerg a good chance to be early harass resistant (not immune), similar to the terran / protoss wall.
Additionally, you could slow the pace of it by breaking burrow into 2 seperate upgrades:
- Creep-only burrow - 50min 50gas from hatch
- Upgraded (regular) burrow - 50min 50 gas from lair
This would allow early-ish defensive banelings / drone safety etc.
Also, take away the passive burrowed roach regen but keep the upgraded regen rate the same - can't abuse this defense early but remains unchanged for later game.
EDIT: Thinking about this more, this would make terran have a certain 'risk' when going for relatively safe pushes with loads of marines or the now popular reapers.
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Moving Pneumatized carapace to tier 1 is one of the best Z-fix ideas I've ever heard. Ever.
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Out of the three you suggested, only the Baneling upgrade can be researched without breaking the game. Roach Upgrade would shut down early harass from toss or terran. You could only do all inish timing pushes.
Overspeed gives zerg far too much scouting power, basically having a t1 flying scout that cannot be killed unless the opponent has massed marines or stalkers. This is intrinsically not balanceable. If the cost and timing is low enough that zerg players will always get it before lair, then zerg early game scouting is far too OP. If the cost and timing were increased so that there is confliction with lair, then no zerg would ever use it because overseers build extremely quickly.
This could be rectified again by nerfing overseers, but then people would just stop using overseers, and zerg would actually, all in all, be nerfed.
The remaining upgrade would be almost useless in T1. It only makes a huge difference once t approaches critical mass bio armies (or mech), neither which happen early game. The gas cost would always be worse then simply getting SIX more banelings until midgame.
imo I think they should make roach moveburrow/burrowed regen just a default ability. Its probably one of the most reactive, niche, researches in the game, and it currently costs 2 upgrades, one which interferes with the crucial roach speed upgrade.
Hmm immune to early game harass. Sounds a lot like terran to me, and I don't remember anyone saying nerf wall ins because they prevent early game harass.
different races are different. more news at eleven.
these seem like really fair, and really good changes. please post this on the battle.net forums.
roach and baneling speed on t1 = great.
I really cant see the justification roach speed is t2. Baneling i can see argument for.
lol.
This is why I always laugh whenever people criticize blizzards inability to game design.
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I like the idea of OV speed being moved to hatchery tech
I think banelings should be moved to t2
Hydras should be moved to t1
Hydras and roaches should be 1 supply with small damage and hp nerfs
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On September 06 2010 07:47 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:44 crms wrote:
roach and baneling speed on t1 = great.
I really cant see the justification roach speed is t2. Baneling i can see argument for. The argument is pushes. I'd imagine that Terran literally couldn't expand with tier one roach speed.
you mean zerg aren't allowed to have an upgradable answer to units that can jump up/down cliffs, units that can upgrade slow, and stim (all on t1 mind you) yeah sorry that justification doesn't work for me.
and to half, care to elaborate on what's so 'lol' about my first post? Please justify roach speed at t2, when almost the entire issue with zerg is dealing with early game harass/abuse.
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On September 06 2010 11:43 Ndugu wrote:
Moving Pneumatized carapace to tier 1 is one of the best Z-fix ideas I've ever heard. Ever.
I really don't think this will help Z much at all...
There are several reasons for this assumption:
1) Ovi Speed costs 100/100, that's almost a liar tech - what does scouting stuff help if the Z then can't tech fast enough to get the right counter-units?
2) Zerg-builds are very very tight early on in every MU - you will have a hard time defending early rushes/pressure if you invest so much ressources into something that doesn't contribute to your army-strength.
3) If the Opponent has Marines/Stalkers or sth. in the right position or hides his tech somehwere on the Map, you won't even be able to scout the stuff you need to see to make the investment pay off.
4) By the time you are at a confortable position and held off the reapers/hellions or anything and could actually drone up or tech, which you definitely need to, you'd invest ressources into this upgrade. By the time it's finished, you could have liar-tech almost done and an overseer could be used to scout.
5) Slow-Overlords can be used to scout as well. It's not guaranteed to work, but if you simply peak in with an ovi, you might just see everything you need to.
If it was 50/50 again, I' could see it being more useful though, cuz those 50/50 make quite a difference that early on in the game. If it costs 100/100, I'd probably never research it before T2 anyways, just because as Z, I tech extremely fast anyways...
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On September 06 2010 09:03 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 08:57 Fantistic wrote:On September 06 2010 08:08 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 08:03 Fantistic wrote:On September 06 2010 07:46 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:34 Salvarias wrote:On September 06 2010 07:33 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 07:30 Salvarias wrote:On September 06 2010 07:24 nafta wrote:
Personally I think roach speed should be tier 1 and roaches in general should be buffed. You know im 99% sure that in phase 1 of the beta roach speed was hatchery tech, it got moved to lair with no reason, and I allways wondered why... but im really sure it was once hatchery tech, and it pissed me off ever since that it's not anymore. there was 3 roach upgrades back then and im sure there was one for each tier... The main complaint of Zerg players these days is the LACK of variety. Roaches in Phase 1 were the definition of an OP unit. While a buff may be in order, I think roaches are a LOT stronger than people give them credit for. The issue is that it requires really small timing windows, and we don't know the timing windows for every Terran build yet. you mean the none existing window with a 25 second ultra cheap tech lap on a early barrack for marauders ? I see new attacks ALL the time. Like every time I see a good zerg play, I'm amazed at the cute timings that exist. If you look at "oh he's got marauders, I'm screwed with roaches" mentality, then sure, zerg is UP. But if you say "Oh, I've got thirty roaches, and he has five marauders, I win." then you've got something powerful. These things exist, just people are often too afraid to try them out. You don't discover timings by macroing, you discover them by trying random attacks. There's never going to be a situation where the Z has 30 roaches and the T has 5 Marauder. Roaches are crap. They don't work. Trust me, I've tried. The only use they have is defending versus Reaper harass and even then Reapers outrun and out-range Roaches. Because you're a pro player. I don't care about anecdotal experience. I care about what I have seen pro players do. Pros matter infinitely more to me than your opinion, and if a pro can do that push, then it works, to me. You opinion is apparently different. Also of note: on creep, speed roaches are FASTER than speed reapers. You're discarding my opinion because I don't get paid to play. 99% of the users on TL don't get paid either. Your loss. Read what I'm saying and you'll learn something. Also of note: on creep, speed roaches are FASTER than speed reapers.By the time a Z can research the Roach speed upgrade, Reapers aren't being produced anymore anyway as they aren't worth the investment because they can't do anymore successful economical harassment damage. Therefore, Roach speed isn't worth the investment either unless the Z has overproduced them which he shouldn't have done in the first place. I don't care what most of the people on TL think either. My primary concern is the competitive/esports scene of this game. You saying "X doesn't work" doesn't mean much when I've seen a pro player do it on several occasions. I can say "Templar are UP" because I suck at placing storms, and it means nothing. I can say "banelings are OP" because I suck at microing my infantry back, when in fact they're perfectly fine. And being paid to play wasn't exactly what I meant. I mean that you are at a pro level. Day9 is at a pro level, but isn't paid to play.
the competitive scene in this game is in its infancy.
you have an imbalanced game, not alot of time passed and pretty much cream of the crop players still on BW
newayz, i think this post started off with just regular play suggestions to give variety for the zerg player.
the only reason why things still work on sc2 competitive scene right now is the fact that nothing is standardized. pretty soon, it will come to the same conclusion that certain things are stupid to do, like over investing in goddamn roaches
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On September 06 2010 09:40 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 09:36 AssuredVacancy wrote:On September 06 2010 09:15 MythicalMage wrote:On September 06 2010 09:14 Cyclon wrote:
Overlord speed upgrade is the one I most favour. That ridiculously long period of completely no scouting combined with the 1001 different units Terran can tech to is killer.
On another thought, how about giving all Zerg units burrow innately without research as long as they are on creep? I think it would lead to some extra early game defensive strategies and help Zerg stave off early aggression. The issue with that would be that it would make Zerg effectively immune to early game harass, without detection. It's not entirely bad, it stops mining time and whatnot, but it seems pretty abusable. Hmm immune to early game harass. Sounds a lot like terran to me, and I don't remember anyone saying nerf wall ins because they prevent early game harass. Wall ins stop mutalisks? Wall in stop banshees? Wall ins stop reapers? Wall ins stop void rays? /sigh. It amazes me how much people LOVE mentioning the wall in. If there was ANY way for me to win/function without a wallin, I would.(I play random, but I've been favoring Terran and Protoss recently, due to my sucking at zerg mechanics.) I avoid them entirely in the other matchups, but I HAVE to not die to speedlings.
rofl since when is fucking banshees or mutalisks early game harass? are you retarded?
the wallin stops any zealot,zergling or other early game ground forces on TIER 1 tech to come and harass you.
wow. some of the most retarded posting ive yet to read
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As long as it doesn't result in a clear advantage for one race or another, don't we all want to see the most creativity possible, especially in early game? I would love to see more abilities in general available for early game, where people are actually to sacrifice the early game 1a for more interesting tactics. Every game is 1a (toss and terran) or minimax defense (zerg).
For all those saying OL speed is overpowered, I think the OL is the only unit that will feasibly be able to solve the zerg scouting crisis (as much as we all love sac'n OLs for often useless information). Increase vision (at the cost of speed?), increase standard speed (at the cost of health?), I don't have the answer, but I think the answer lies somewhere with the OL.
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On September 06 2010 07:33 MythicalMage wrote:
The main complaint of Zerg players these days is the LACK of variety. Roaches in Phase 1 were the definition of an OP unit. While a buff may be in order, I think roaches are a LOT stronger than people give them credit for. The issue is that it requires really small timing windows, and we don't know the timing windows for every Terran build yet.
roaches definitely aren't bad, but you can't do timing pushes/early pressure with them, because they are horribly slow, you can use them for defending only, and even thats not working out too well without speed
imo the roach is too weak for an unit that becomes viable through t2 tech, but if speed would be t1 tech, they should be fine
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i have to admit i had the same opinion some weeks ago.... but
the last days - especialy the last weekend i played a lot more tier1 based games and really didnt miss all the stuff. the idea behind this was that even when i love muta play its quit vulnerable to strong 1base counter pushes simply because u dont have much stuff.
i basicly stayed on t1 until i took my third (which was due to that quite fast) or i scouted voidray/banshee rush.
i had alot of good games and had to learn that 1gas2base sling/roach into 2gas2base sling/bling/roach is really really strong vs. all those 1base strats atm.
to make zerg early game a bit more interesting i would hope for tiny changes only. like blizz is going to do in the next patch anyway.
what i really think would be a great idea is:
- giving overlord spit creep at t1 through an upgrade
this would open up so many things without beeing to strong as they are slow as hell.
to balance the additional costs i would have the cost of overseer and ventralsacs cost/research time at lair reduced which again would lead to a lot of interesting play.
Zira
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My biggest problem with zerg upgrades is that they are boring for the biggest part.
Ling: + speed
Roach: +speed
Baneling: +speed
Hydra: +1 range
Ultra: +2 armor
The move burrow roach is something more interesting.
Terran upgrades feel more different, you really upgrade an unit to something else.
stim pack
concussive shell
cloak
250mm canon
yamato canon
siege tank
pre igniter
And the funny thing is that the most controversed terran unit is the one with a speed upgrade namely the reaper.
Toss is half boring, half funny:
chargelot is a speed upgrade but more dynamic with his pros and cons
blink
+3 range on colossi feels more interesting strategicly than a +1
But for otehr units you have the same awful zerg pattern:
warp prism: +speed
void rays: +speed
observer: +speed
Boring upgrades = less gameplay/strats.
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On September 06 2010 07:37 Slipspace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:35 kickinhead wrote:
burrow to tier1 and make blings able to move underground.
Burrowed blings are good, but rely too much on the opponent making mistakes.
and overseers should be available on t1 as well, then Z could actually stay on t1 longer without autoloss 2 cloaked banshees and they'd have decent scouting-options. i definitely don't think those would be good changes
Thanks a lot for sharing your view, your arguments are outstanding.
Banelings moving underground would be a bit too sick, overseers to t1 would really really help because at the moment I feel I just have to rush to lair vs T, otherwise I autolose to banshees (which is the flavour of the week/month -.-) Burrow to t1 is also pretty good, some builds might force terran to get a raven out before they can push out (burrowed banelings working like lurkers in BW)
Anyhow, something like this def. needs to happen because im pretty sure the current listed 1.1 changes aren't enough.
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I'd like to see this: creep tumors provide invisibility to small ground units in a small area around them as long as those units aren't moving/attacking.
The creep tumor could be upgraded at the hatchery to provide an active spell with cooldown, I would call this ... Dark Swarm ... but you couldn't use it anywhere, only on the creep tumor.
You build a spawning pool, a queen and upgrade tumors and you get an early defensive ability, you get the choice to either extend creep or stay hidden.
Against reapers, put this upgraded creep tumor inside mineral line, drones are safe.
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On September 06 2010 07:21 Intropy wrote:
Just by itself moving overlord speed to Hatchery instead of Lair would solve SOOOO many of Zerg's problems.
The other two would be welcome though in order to add some more options for early Zerg other than macroing and defending in order to tech to viable upgrades at lair.
I know right then we wouldn't have to sac 100 mineral OL to see the enemy base compared to 270 that a terran has to sac.
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On September 06 2010 21:07 Competent wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:21 Intropy wrote:
Just by itself moving overlord speed to Hatchery instead of Lair would solve SOOOO many of Zerg's problems.
The other two would be welcome though in order to add some more options for early Zerg other than macroing and defending in order to tech to viable upgrades at lair. I know right then we wouldn't have to sac 100 mineral OL to see the enemy base compared to 270 that a terran has to sac.
Terran doesn't lose resources if they scan. That's a common mistake that is so wrong it's scary.
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On September 06 2010 12:00 Half wrote:
lol.
This is why I always laugh whenever people criticize blizzards inability to game design.
Don't be ridiculous. Blizzard's balancing has been nothing but laughable. The fact they've moved basically every zerg upgrade into tier 2 is the very reason zerg has such difficulty in the early game. Its a direct correlation, a no brainer. Also laughable is the fact blizzard has repeatedly removed, readded, or completely nerfed zerg abilities and units shows they have no idea how to properly balance the race in SC2. Compared to those of terran in which we only see cost and timing decreases, not increases.
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On September 06 2010 21:07 Competent wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 07:21 Intropy wrote:
Just by itself moving overlord speed to Hatchery instead of Lair would solve SOOOO many of Zerg's problems.
The other two would be welcome though in order to add some more options for early Zerg other than macroing and defending in order to tech to viable upgrades at lair. I know right then we wouldn't have to sac 100 mineral OL to see the enemy base compared to 270 that a terran has to sac.
1) scan can't be denied
2) T can scout constantly with reaprs
3) T can scout constantly with floating buildings
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EPT
