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On September 06 2010 03:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
And I assume he has no problem sharing his secret with the community, right?
...right? Because he's certainly not doing that via traditional means and this has been a known problem since the start of beta, which nobody has come forward with a legitimate solution to.
Frankly we don't know why it happens but it does. But this can be verified 100x over that he has a 5+ minute delay probably 80% of the time.
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Since the same argument is being brought up here constantly: We actually changed our streaming policy since Wednesday's disaster and now only "verified" casters will be allowed in the games in the quarter finals and all the later stages. In the currently running cup we have 2-3 casters and no observers besides one admin in the matches and as far as I can tell there were no lag issues so far.
It is actually in our interest to only have a selected few casters so that we can promote their streams on our website better and have a better run tournament overall. The rule of "anyone is welcome to stream" was introduced in beta when we were eager to have as much exposure as possible. There won't be 14 streamers or whatever ridiculous number is thrown aorund here again in a Go4SC2 match.
Regarding MorroW's ban: Since we didn't announce any ban for MorroW on our website so far please take any info Rakaka or other community websites release with a grain of salt. Yes, one of our admins did talk to MorroW after the cup and we didn't let him play in today's cup but I'm sure we will find a better solution to this issue as well since it's obvious that his behaviour was caused by our organization.
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On September 06 2010 03:27 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:26 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 03:20 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:18 Pufftrees wrote:
Should ban 'casters' and observers who lag games not the other way around. Players don't make the tournament money Again, there are some extreme views in this thread which don't have much basis in reality. You need broadcasters, players, tournament organisers and sponsors, in order to make money from an ESPORTS tournament. Popular players bring in more views, but in order to get popular players, you need the money to attract them to it, which means you need sponsors. In order to have a good tournament, you need tournament organisers to get the sponsors in the first place and facilitate the tournament and then in order for those sponsors to get their money's worth, they need broadcasters to ensure that they have enough spectators seeing their product. You can't take any one of those away from the equation. Some people will watch a tournament because it's got a lot of money and promotion behind it, that's due to the sponsors. Some will watch due to the organisation that's backing it, who always has an established audience, that's the tournament organiser. Some people will watch it due to the people casting, because they too have established fanbases, that's their broadcasters and last but by no means least, some people will watch because their favourite player is playing. Do not discount the importance of any of these things, nor try to squabble over who is more important than the other, because they are all necessary. Raelcun regularly has a 5+ minute delay. And I assume he has no problem sharing his secret with other casters, right? ...right? I promise you ESL will not lose ANY viewers in the weeks that MorroW is banned. Sure they will, MorroW has a fanbase just like any other established player. Some will boycott due to his treatment, others just won't care enough to watch it because he's not playing. They're certainly not gaining any viewers by getting rid of him.
Well at least on TL no one has spoken about boycotting ESL yet. Some trash has been thrown at them but once a big tourney starts rolling again, even the ones complaining will still watch it.
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On September 06 2010 03:27 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
And I assume he has no problem sharing his secret with the community, right?
...right? Because he's certainly not doing that via traditional means and this has been a known problem since the start of beta, which nobody has come forward with a legitimate solution to. Frankly we don't know why it happens but it does. But this can be verified 100x over that he has a 5+ minute delay probably 80% of the time.
What you're suggesting should technically be impossible, because he's not buffering that on his end using FMLE, the data isn't suddenly hanging there in cyberspace for no reason and Ustream certainly isn't buffering that much data. The data has to go somewhere.
I mean, I had 10 minutes delay on the i40 stream at one point but that's only because the Ustream server was crapping out and pausing every couple of seconds, it's wasn't exactly what I'd call an ideal solution.
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To be totally honest, one less terran in go4sc2 is a godblessing.
6 TERRANS and 2 protoss in the quarter finals. Thats 3 TvT and 1 PvP, could this be more boring?
Blizzard needs to patch soon, this is just retarded. Anyone who saw Fuzer vs MoMaN today knows how retarded that matchup is.
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On September 06 2010 03:24 AppleTart wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:23 Pufftrees wrote:On September 06 2010 03:20 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:18 Pufftrees wrote:
Should ban 'casters' and observers who lag games not the other way around. Players don't make the tournament money It was more of a joke, but those 10 + observers who aren't casting but just joining for no reason aren't making the tourney money. Actually they do...
If all 14 observers were all individually streaming and casting then yes I'd agree with you. How do the people who aren't streaming but just hanging in games for no reason other then to watch actually helping?
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So, I guess players like Boxer and Savior never made any money for BW tournaments?
It's just as Totalbiscuit says, you can't just complete ignore one part of the puzzle and expect to solve it anyway, it just doesn't work like that.
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On September 06 2010 03:30 Pufftrees wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:24 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:23 Pufftrees wrote:On September 06 2010 03:20 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:18 Pufftrees wrote:
Should ban 'casters' and observers who lag games not the other way around. Players don't make the tournament money It was more of a joke, but those 10 + observers who aren't casting but just joining for no reason aren't making the tourney money. Actually they do... If all 14 observers were all individually streaming and casting then yes I'd agree with you. How do the people who aren't streaming but just hanging in games for no reason other then to watch actually helping?
Yeap that's why we start the game with zero casters right
So, I guess players like Boxer and Savior never made any money for BW tournaments?
It's just as Totalbiscuit says, you can't just complete ignore one part of the puzzle and expect to solve it anyway, it just doesn't work like that.
They do only when you get that BIG first. When you are small even someone as famous as MorroW won't really affect your viewership. It's sorta like a fast food restaurant firing a worker versus like the CEO of Boeing booting their head development guy. To get that big you need more money.
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On September 06 2010 03:02 rasnj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:50 travis wrote:On September 06 2010 02:44 rasnj wrote:On September 06 2010 02:34 travis wrote:
If they want to address that there are too many people in their games that is not the way to go about it... What is then? I see three options: 1) Don't play in ESL tournaments 2) Just continue letting the ESL make your games laggy. 3) Break the rules, and perhaps spark a discussion that forces a change in policies. In other tournaments there is a fourth, optimal option: 4) Inform the tournament organizers of the problem and let them sort it out. However ESL have proven that they will not help resolve the problem (at least no prior to this incident). umm, how about not starting the next game with no caster without saying anything it's pretty simple really.. just refuse to play your next game with any more than just the official caster in the game. Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:53 DorN wrote:
5) Tell everyone except of Take to leave but thats too hard i guess
Morrow tried that approach last Wednesday and it didn't work. He asked people to leave because of lag and NO ONE responded or left. No ESL admin took any action whatsoever. He held up the game for about 10-15 min before seeing it was pointless and just played.
well that's massive bullshit
(errr, i don't mean that you're lying.. i mean that's totally unreasonable by esl and the asshole streamers/obses)
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On September 06 2010 03:30 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:27 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 03:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
And I assume he has no problem sharing his secret with the community, right?
...right? Because he's certainly not doing that via traditional means and this has been a known problem since the start of beta, which nobody has come forward with a legitimate solution to. Frankly we don't know why it happens but it does. But this can be verified 100x over that he has a 5+ minute delay probably 80% of the time. What you're suggesting should technically be impossible, because he's not buffering that on his end using FMLE, the data isn't suddenly hanging there in cyberspace for no reason and Ustream certainly isn't buffering that much data. The data has to go somewhere. I mean, I had 10 minutes delay on the i40 stream at one point but that's only because the Ustream server was crapping out and pausing every couple of seconds, it's wasn't exactly what I'd call an ideal solution.
First, he does not use FLME. Second, it happens. All the time. This is sort of a well known thing to anyone that watches iCCup TV.
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they have 10'000+ viewers, I'm sure they don't care about the 10 ppl that won't watch it because morrow got banned for acting like a child.
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So people lag some guys game, he doesn't like the lag, then he's banned.
ESL seems like a very well run tournament.
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On September 06 2010 03:32 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:30 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 03:27 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 03:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
And I assume he has no problem sharing his secret with the community, right?
...right? Because he's certainly not doing that via traditional means and this has been a known problem since the start of beta, which nobody has come forward with a legitimate solution to. Frankly we don't know why it happens but it does. But this can be verified 100x over that he has a 5+ minute delay probably 80% of the time. What you're suggesting should technically be impossible, because he's not buffering that on his end using FMLE, the data isn't suddenly hanging there in cyberspace for no reason and Ustream certainly isn't buffering that much data. The data has to go somewhere. I mean, I had 10 minutes delay on the i40 stream at one point but that's only because the Ustream server was crapping out and pausing every couple of seconds, it's wasn't exactly what I'd call an ideal solution. First, he does not use FLME. Second, it happens. All the time. This is sort of a well known thing to anyone that watches iCCup TV.
So what exactly does he use? Whatever he's using is apparently allowing a 5-minute local tape-delay buffer which would be something the rest of the community would be extremely interested in learning about.
So people lag some guys game, he doesn't like the lag, then he's banned.
ESL seems like a very well run tournament.
Yes, it was obviously this simple and clearly your comment has merit...
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On September 06 2010 03:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:32 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 03:30 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 03:27 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 03:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
And I assume he has no problem sharing his secret with the community, right?
...right? Because he's certainly not doing that via traditional means and this has been a known problem since the start of beta, which nobody has come forward with a legitimate solution to. Frankly we don't know why it happens but it does. But this can be verified 100x over that he has a 5+ minute delay probably 80% of the time. What you're suggesting should technically be impossible, because he's not buffering that on his end using FMLE, the data isn't suddenly hanging there in cyberspace for no reason and Ustream certainly isn't buffering that much data. The data has to go somewhere. I mean, I had 10 minutes delay on the i40 stream at one point but that's only because the Ustream server was crapping out and pausing every couple of seconds, it's wasn't exactly what I'd call an ideal solution. First, he does not use FLME. Second, it happens. All the time. This is sort of a well known thing to anyone that watches iCCup TV. So what exactly does he use? Whatever he's using is apparently allowing a 5-minute local tape-delay buffer which would be something the rest of the community would be extremely interested in learning about.
Producer Pro.
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On September 06 2010 03:32 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:02 rasnj wrote:On September 06 2010 02:50 travis wrote:On September 06 2010 02:44 rasnj wrote:On September 06 2010 02:34 travis wrote:
If they want to address that there are too many people in their games that is not the way to go about it... What is then? I see three options: 1) Don't play in ESL tournaments 2) Just continue letting the ESL make your games laggy. 3) Break the rules, and perhaps spark a discussion that forces a change in policies. In other tournaments there is a fourth, optimal option: 4) Inform the tournament organizers of the problem and let them sort it out. However ESL have proven that they will not help resolve the problem (at least no prior to this incident). umm, how about not starting the next game with no caster without saying anything it's pretty simple really.. just refuse to play your next game with any more than just the official caster in the game. On September 06 2010 02:53 DorN wrote:
5) Tell everyone except of Take to leave but thats too hard i guess
Morrow tried that approach last Wednesday and it didn't work. He asked people to leave because of lag and NO ONE responded or left. No ESL admin took any action whatsoever. He held up the game for about 10-15 min before seeing it was pointless and just played. well that's massive bullshit (errr, i don't mean that you're lying.. i mean that's totally unreasonable by esl and the asshole streamers)
They were both being silly, MorroW should've realized that the streamers won't leave whether he wants to or not and whining/complaining wouldn't help at the time. He should've just submitted some feedback afterwards, because in the end it is what it is.
At the same time I don't understand how the organizers/admins figured player input wasn't worth a salt. If a player complains about lag it's likely he has a very good reason to. Meh, SC2 is still new. These kind of issues are bound to happen early on before people get stuff figured out.
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On September 06 2010 03:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:32 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 03:30 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 03:27 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 03:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
And I assume he has no problem sharing his secret with the community, right?
...right? Because he's certainly not doing that via traditional means and this has been a known problem since the start of beta, which nobody has come forward with a legitimate solution to. Frankly we don't know why it happens but it does. But this can be verified 100x over that he has a 5+ minute delay probably 80% of the time. What you're suggesting should technically be impossible, because he's not buffering that on his end using FMLE, the data isn't suddenly hanging there in cyberspace for no reason and Ustream certainly isn't buffering that much data. The data has to go somewhere. I mean, I had 10 minutes delay on the i40 stream at one point but that's only because the Ustream server was crapping out and pausing every couple of seconds, it's wasn't exactly what I'd call an ideal solution. First, he does not use FLME. Second, it happens. All the time. This is sort of a well known thing to anyone that watches iCCup TV. So what exactly does he use? Whatever he's using is apparently allowing a 5-minute local tape-delay buffer which would be something the rest of the community would be extremely interested in learning about. Show nested quote +So people lag some guys game, he doesn't like the lag, then he's banned.
ESL seems like a very well run tournament. Yes, it was obviously this simple and clearly your comment has merit...
He already posted that he doesn't know how it happens. Honestly do you even read the posts?
And yes, it honestly is that simple. Morrow got banned because the organizers dont know what they're doing.
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From briefly reading all of this I believe that they should talk to Blizzard in the possibility that they can make special lobby's for this game for high profile events. Especially for these important games, although I can see it from Morrow's side as well. I know that it is not just me but I would rather lose to skill and not the fact that you are having terrible latency issues.
They should just honestly just have one very good quality stream, stream the event. Then all of the casters can just cast off of the stream. This is just a simple fix until some genius over at Blizzard can find a fix for this. This can work, I have seen the quality of some streams and if you put it on full screen it's as if you were playing the game yourself.
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On September 06 2010 03:35 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Producer Pro.
Significant local buffering certainly isn't a documented feature with that program, but if it does do that, it's worth looking into.
He already posted that he doesn't know how it happens. Honestly do you even read the posts?
Do you? Because I asked what he used, not how it did it.
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On September 06 2010 03:31 AppleTart wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:30 Pufftrees wrote:On September 06 2010 03:24 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:23 Pufftrees wrote:On September 06 2010 03:20 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:18 Pufftrees wrote:
Should ban 'casters' and observers who lag games not the other way around. Players don't make the tournament money It was more of a joke, but those 10 + observers who aren't casting but just joining for no reason aren't making the tourney money. Actually they do... If all 14 observers were all individually streaming and casting then yes I'd agree with you. How do the people who aren't streaming but just hanging in games for no reason other then to watch actually helping? Yeap that's why we start the game with zero casters right Show nested quote +
So, I guess players like Boxer and Savior never made any money for BW tournaments?
It's just as Totalbiscuit says, you can't just complete ignore one part of the puzzle and expect to solve it anyway, it just doesn't work like that.
They do only when you get that BIG first. When you are small even someone as famous as MorroW won't really affect your viewership. It's sorta like a fast food restaurant firing a worker versus like the CEO of Boeing booting their head development guy. To get that big you need more money.
Are you trolling at this point? I am saying, you have 14 observers. If 13 are casting then 1 is a waste... are all 14 casting?? If so why??? Just seems extreme, have a few casters tops not 14.
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On September 06 2010 03:37 TotalBiscuit wrote:Significant local buffering certainly isn't a documented feature with that program, but if it does do that, it's worth looking into.
I'm going to repeat myself here. WE DON'T KNOW what happens, but it happens.
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EPT
