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http://rakaka.se/?newsID=14947
Looks like he is banned for 2 Weeks for not allowing ESL TV Streamers in his Go4SC2 Cup Games.
On September 06 2010 01:40 MorroW wrote:
i won vs dimaga out of lag with 14 casters the entire series, was unplayable
then in finals they wanted 14 casters again and i started without them in game 1, then game 2 and on i let them watch
apologized for real afterwards, got angry because of the lag and disrespect of the admins to ignore what i had to say and thats why i started without them. ill be back after the ban time and i have cleared the air with them
they will change their rules soon because situations like this are ridiculous which they agreed on
there was no bad mannering going on here from either of the parties thats the truth On September 06 2010 01:45 MorroW wrote:
let me just state for the record that im banned from the next 3 go4sc2 cups, nothing else
dont listen to everything the press
let me just finish this by saying it was just stupid and immature of me to take the problem and try solve it myself by not letting them cast, i regret it but i think getting a ban was harsh, im just happy that its not gonna stay like this forever because lately almost all tournaments have been giving too little damn about the players On September 06 2010 03:27 Shawngood wrote:
Since the same argument is being brought up here constantly: We actually changed our streaming policy since Wednesday's disaster and now only "verified" casters will be allowed in the games in the quarter finals and all the later stages. In the currently running cup we have 2-3 casters and no observers besides one admin in the matches and as far as I can tell there were no lag issues so far.
It is actually in our interest to only have a selected few casters so that we can promote their streams on our website better and have a better run tournament overall. The rule of "anyone is welcome to stream" was introduced in beta when we were eager to have as much exposure as possible. There won't be 14 streamers or whatever ridiculous number is thrown aorund here again in a Go4SC2 match.
Regarding MorroW's ban: Since we didn't announce any ban for MorroW on our website so far please take any info Rakaka or other community websites release with a grain of salt. Yes, one of our admins did talk to MorroW after the cup and we didn't let him play in today's cup but I'm sure we will find a better solution to this issue as well since it's obvious that his behaviour was caused by our organization.
//edit (the quotes were added by a mod): Looks like Morrow was infact only banned from today's go4sc2.
Seems to me like there is a lot of discssion to be done on the issue of game coverage.
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From what i remember he didn't let TaKe join (or did he just start the game without him?) and after that he said the following stuff to BigT: http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/2017/morrowfail.jpg
That being said, there's probably more about it! 
Edit: Apparently he just started the game even though he knew Take (ESL TV) wanted to join!
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Wellwell, serves him. Why the heck dont they learn it already? It feels like every week someone gets sued for the same reason...
Edit: After seeing the picture above, make that 4 weeks 
[Nah im not a Zerg or Protoss player...]
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Sounds like the whole IdrA incident that happened for the US Qualifiers lol.
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Not letting TaKe join is pretty harsh of Morrow, if that's true! 
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....wow I'm sorry but this shit is retarded; to disallow a gamer from having a choice if he wants obs is retarded.
If this was the semifinals match or even the quarter finals i could see mandatory obs being expected, but not in like ro64 and such.
Edit: is it just me or do all the gamers seem to disallow BigT in their games o_o; IdrA did the same.
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i guess he doesnt want people to see his strats. Still, hes usually so manner.
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Well DonKey, its a rule of this Cup. If you dislike the rules, dont take part in the cup then. He's the only one to blame in this situation.
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whaaaaat thats pretty ridiculous
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I don't get why it's such a big deal of not letting caster to obs...
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On September 06 2010 00:46 DonKey_ wrote:
....wow I'm sorry but this shit is retarded; to disallow a gamer from having a choice if he wants obs is retarded.
If this was the semifinals match or even the quarter finals i could see mandatory obs being expected, but not in like ro64 and such.
Edit: is it just me or do all the gamers seem to disallow BigT in their games o_o; IdrA did the same.
Nah, it wasn't BigT at this case. Read more carefully, he just told BigT that he doesn't regret to have started the game without TaKe.
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On September 06 2010 00:44 HolydaKing wrote:From what i remember he didn't let TaKe join (or did he just start the game without him?) and after that he said the following stuff to BigT: http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/2017/morrowfail.jpgThat being said, there's probably more about it! Edit: Apparently he just started the game even though he knew Take (ESL TV) wanted to join!
For some reason Morrow is one of the players always talking to BigT, who no doubt given this conversation talked him into starting the game with the aim of getting more people onto BigT's stream
Pretty much everything bad in the world can be traced back to BigT
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serves him well.
And about manner. Letting trump wait for over an hour in the fisher cup because he is playing 2 tournaments at once and all his antics going on lately.
I fully endorse the 3 week ban. Hope he comes to senses again.
Seems the IEM win didn't help him at all mannerwise.
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On September 06 2010 00:44 HolydaKing wrote:From what i remember he didn't let TaKe join (or did he just start the game without him?) and after that he said the following stuff to BigT: http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/2017/morrowfail.jpgThat being said, there's probably more about it! Edit: Apparently he just started the game even though he knew Take (ESL TV) wanted to join!
GOD DAM BIGT
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On September 06 2010 00:51 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 00:44 HolydaKing wrote:From what i remember he didn't let TaKe join (or did he just start the game without him?) and after that he said the following stuff to BigT: http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/2017/morrowfail.jpgThat being said, there's probably more about it! Edit: Apparently he just started the game even though he knew Take (ESL TV) wanted to join! For some reason Morrow is one of the players always talking to BigT, who no doubt given this conversation talked him into starting the game with the aim of getting more people onto BigT's stream Pretty much everything bad in the world can be traced back to BigT
Edit: so BigT talked morrow into starting?
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The players were getting pissed considering there were like 50 spectators streaming and lagging the game to shit. I would have started without them too if it meant a lag-less game. Example: Morrow vs Dimaga game 3. Obs lagged on the final confrontation and dimagas banelings suicided and lost him the game. (This game was previous to this incident)
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On September 06 2010 00:53 DonKey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 00:51 floor exercise wrote:On September 06 2010 00:44 HolydaKing wrote:From what i remember he didn't let TaKe join (or did he just start the game without him?) and after that he said the following stuff to BigT: http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/2017/morrowfail.jpgThat being said, there's probably more about it! Edit: Apparently he just started the game even though he knew Take (ESL TV) wanted to join! For some reason Morrow is one of the players always talking to BigT, who no doubt given this conversation talked him into starting the game with the aim of getting more people onto BigT's stream Pretty much everything bad in the world can be traced back to BigT so BigT hosted the game?
I don't know all I'm saying is where there's smoke there's fire and BigT is a big flaming pile of drama in every tournament he's in
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On September 06 2010 00:44 HolydaKing wrote:From what i remember he didn't let TaKe join (or did he just start the game without him?) and after that he said the following stuff to BigT: http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/2017/morrowfail.jpgThat being said, there's probably more about it! Edit: Apparently he just started the game even though he knew Take (ESL TV) wanted to join!
Shouldn't of posted that picture man, you got him banned for 2 additional weeks because of it.
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yeah, banning is right if the rules say so, however it s also frustrating when there are over 9000 commentators streamers spectators whatnot who "have" to join
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On September 06 2010 00:49 Dekker wrote:
Well DonKey, its a rule of this Cup. If you dislike the rules, dont take part in the cup then. He's the only one to blame in this situation.
Exactly.
On one hand if you have a player who is strongly opposed to having obs, and another match where the players don't mind, I don't see much reason to force obs on the player who doesn't want it. On the other hand, not only is it in the rules, but we just saw IdrA take penalty points for the exact same thing. For that reason, IMO, MorroW has even less excuse.
I've lost a little respect for MorroW recently. I was watching Trump's stream when he was waiting for MorroW for a semifinal because MorroW had committed to play 2 tournaments simultaneously. Trump ended up waiting for a good hour because MorroW first played one round in the other tournament and then went to play the 2nd round because he didn't want to wait 30 seconds for Trump to ask a question about eliminating maps and he actually blamed Trump for the delay. :/
That said, I think these tournaments need to start requiring casters to register with the tournament. No more of this business of any random moron with a Ustream account being able to take it upon himself to start casting tournaments.
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thats not like morrow at all
wonder why he did that
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On September 06 2010 00:46 DonKey_ wrote:
....wow I'm sorry but this shit is retarded; to disallow a gamer from having a choice if he wants obs is retarded.
If this was the semifinals match or even the quarter finals i could see mandatory obs being expected, but not in like ro64 and such.
+1... It's not like he was a suspected cheater or whatever, if the game started on time with both players, if the opponent did not complain about a possible cheat and so on, to sum up, if the game was fair, there's no reasons for such a ban... that's childish to ban him for that.
At leaste a warning or something like that would be ok, but a ban is just ridiculous
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On September 06 2010 00:56 RifleCow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 00:44 HolydaKing wrote:From what i remember he didn't let TaKe join (or did he just start the game without him?) and after that he said the following stuff to BigT: http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/2017/morrowfail.jpgThat being said, there's probably more about it! Edit: Apparently he just started the game even though he knew Take (ESL TV) wanted to join! Shouldn't of posted that picture man, you got him banned for 2 additional weeks because of it.
What is this, 5th grade?
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Sounds like MorroW has a really big ego now!
MorroW:
"I told them that I regret it"
"but I don't"
"xD"
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On September 06 2010 00:56 RifleCow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 00:44 HolydaKing wrote:From what i remember he didn't let TaKe join (or did he just start the game without him?) and after that he said the following stuff to BigT: http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/2017/morrowfail.jpgThat being said, there's probably more about it! Edit: Apparently he just started the game even though he knew Take (ESL TV) wanted to join! Shouldn't of posted that picture man, you got him banned for 2 additional weeks because of it.
Nah, it's well known actually. 
On September 06 2010 00:53 Titan107 wrote:
The players were getting pissed considering there were like 50 spectators streaming and lagging the game to shit. I would have started without them too if it meant a lag-less game. Example: Morrow vs Dimaga game 3. Obs lagged on the final confrontation and dimagas banelings suicided and lost him the game. (This game was previous to this incident)
Okay, but you know that it was an ESL tournament. If there were too many streamers, then the priority list of kicking observers should be something like this:
1. randoms
2. friends of players / basically randoms
3. known players
4. streamers
5. ESL TV (if at all kickable, dunno. I think there's a rule which says ESL TV may not be kicked)
edit: checked and didn't find such a rule, even though the priority list is still correct ^^
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On September 06 2010 00:53 Titan107 wrote:
The players were getting pissed considering there were like 50 spectators streaming and lagging the game to shit. I would have started without them too if it meant a lag-less game. Example: Morrow vs Dimaga game 3. Obs lagged on the final confrontation and dimagas banelings suicided and lost him the game. (This game was previous to this incident)
doesn't seem like the require every streamer known to man to cast it, just the official streamer, am I right? (I am not sure, haven't followed this, but it makes the most sense).
I see no reason why the players can't ask for any non-essential streamers to leave. doesn't sound like Morrow did that.
And in game 3 of Dimaga vs Morrow, honestly, Dimaga lost it anyway. I'm a zerg player still sour about IdrA's loss to MorroW at IEM Cologne, and a big dimaga fan.. but to say he lost because of the lag isn't true. It was just an annoying ass time in an already tense game. It was like someone taking a shit on your head after pissing in your cereal.
I'd be upset too.
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The problem the Starcraft 2 scene is facing right now is that it seems like there are way too many commentators and every time there is a game all of them want to join in. So a game that can start the moment the players join can't because they have to not just wait for the official ESL streamers to get in but then wait for another retarded number of independent streamers who also to join. Taking 30 minutes to start a game. Then what happens? They lag the game, refuse to leave, won't leave and players have no saying in anything.
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but seriously if a fucking player does not want you in the freaking game, he doesnt want you in the FREAKING GAME! So bm these ppl. I know BigT wasnt at fault and i didnt think he was at fault the last time either but WOW wtf. because a caster "WANTED TO JOIN", STFU and join one of the other 31 games... ffs
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Do they have a list of approved streamers? If they do, then I can totally understand it. If they don't then I cannot see the fairness in banning him.
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^ no they don't. If you want to stream you just tell them and they let you in. You use the same line they all use "it's for the community"
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In all those cases - Idra, Morrow etc - I'd always side with the player, even without knowing the details of the story. Chances are, usually good players have good reasons for such behavior.
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Some peoople were lagging up the games, so morrow raged and refused to not let any obs in. I don't blame him, its very frustrating to him
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On September 06 2010 01:01 AmaZing wrote:
but seriously if a fucking player does not want you in the freaking game, he doesnt want you in the FREAKING GAME! So bm these ppl. I know BigT wasnt at fault and i didnt think he was at fault the last time either but WOW wtf. because a caster "WANTED TO JOIN", STFU and join one of the other 31 games... ffs
If a player doesnt want obs in the freaking game... then dont join the tournament where you need to have (rules) said tournaments obs in the game... stfu and join 10 other tournaments!
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i can understand "not letting caster" thing but that chat screen means nothing. Players aren't allowed to talk & joke with their friends during tournaments now? ( and no it's not like he did it in public to damage ESL's name etc )
On September 06 2010 00:59 apm66 wrote:
Sounds like MorroW has a really big ego now!
MorroW:
"I told them that I regret it"
"but I don't"
"xD"
Really? To me it looks like he's joking and having fun. Wierd
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Don't defend him just because you're a fanboy. Sure, I like Morrow, I think he's usually very manner, however this was a 100% dickish move on his part and anyone trying to defend his actions needs to reevaluate how they view things.
That said, I do find it strange coming from Morrow, he's usually not dickish at all.
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If its part of the rules to allow take(or whoever is the official streamer) to stream it, then morrows the one at fault.
Also BigT does start a lot of drama wish he wouldnt stream at all -_-.
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On September 06 2010 00:56 RifleCow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 00:44 HolydaKing wrote:From what i remember he didn't let TaKe join (or did he just start the game without him?) and after that he said the following stuff to BigT: http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/2017/morrowfail.jpgThat being said, there's probably more about it! Edit: Apparently he just started the game even though he knew Take (ESL TV) wanted to join! Shouldn't of posted that picture man, you got him banned for 2 additional weeks because of it.
MorroW should have thought of that before he said it..to BigT of all people. This is the exact situation IdrA was in. I have no idea why MorroW would think he could do the exact same thing with no consequences.
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On September 06 2010 01:05 youngminii wrote:
Don't defend him just because you're a fanboy. Sure, I like Morrow, I think he's usually very manner, however this was a 100% dickish move on his part and anyone trying to defend his actions needs to reevaluate how they view things.
That said, I do find it strange coming from Morrow, he's usually not dickish at all.
What's more dickish? Obs refusing to not leave the game when they are lagging or MorroW refusing the laggers to join in and go with a small numbers of obs (including the official streamer ESL)
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No Stream => No Premium Viewers => No Money for the ESL => No Pricemoney => No Cup
Have fun with the Ban Morrow.
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The basic idea of running a tournament with a prize pool is you offer prize money and
in return you get content to show to your viewers.
So if ESL organizes a tournament they want to show it to their viewers and if MorroW refuses to let them do so, the ban is reasonable.
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On September 06 2010 01:07 GenoZStriker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:05 youngminii wrote:
Don't defend him just because you're a fanboy. Sure, I like Morrow, I think he's usually very manner, however this was a 100% dickish move on his part and anyone trying to defend his actions needs to reevaluate how they view things.
That said, I do find it strange coming from Morrow, he's usually not dickish at all. What's more dickish? Obs refusing to not leave the game when they are lagging or MorroW refusing the laggers to join in and go with a small numbers of obs (including the official streamer ESL)
That's a good deal of utter bullshit you just pulled out from your ass.
User was warned for this post
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Ya i agreed with the rule that player need to let the streamers cast their game. But not like ESL do...They have 21526534645 observers in one game come on that is stupid is like my english...
3/4 streams is fine.
I remember watching Morrow vs Dimaga. Morrow say to them to leave and ofc nobody leaves.
In first game Morrow blame lag to for losing a few reapers and in 3 game probably a more serious problem 1 caster lag the game when Dimaga was doing a crucial attack. He fail and loss the game. So ESL should have 3/4 officials streamers per game.
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This is an issue I ran into on a smaller scale while casting the i40 tournament. A player refused to be cast due to 'nerves'. Thing is he didn't have the right to say no, it was in the terms and conditions of his i40 ticket that he consented to being filmed and photographed for promotional purposes, including his gaming, plus the tournament very clearly stated that it would be broadcast. As a result he stopped me from doing my job, pissed off 3,500 viewers at the time and held up the entire event. Oh and then he came down after the final with 5 of his drunken mates berating me for calling his behaviour moronic on the stream. GG.
In this case, having multiple spectators is dumb, really dumb. It's the reason I don't allow anyone else to spectate SHOUTcraft matches, because it's a disservice to the players. Bnet blows chunks, is that the charming American phrase? Yes I believe so and multiple in-game spectators can really screw things up.
However, players have to realise that ESPORTS is bigger than them, much bigger. In order for it to thrive it has to be watched, because if it's not watched, then sponsors don't care about it and won't inject money into it which ultimately means you, as a good player, don't get paid. Thousands of spectators > you. When you play competitively, when you play with money on the line, you accept the strings to which that money is attached, ie. the sponsors must be sufficient promotion to justify their investment. If you do not accept that, then please do not get involved in ESPORTS.
In this case, MorroW had a point and honestly, loads of people spectating competitive games via BNet is dumb as shit and should not be happening at all. BNet can't handle it, which ultimately is Blizzards fault but we are stuck with what we've got for the time being and we have to adapt to that environment. That said, he also broke tournament rules and deserves to be punished under those rules. It seems to me that if all of these spectators were streamers, they should perhaps organise amongst themselves which games will be cast (unless it's 1 at a time, which I assume during qualifiers it probably isn't) and not dogpile the high-profile players games just because it'll get them extra views. This can and will be a problem in future and casters need to take at least some responsibility for that. As someone has mentioned earlier, ESL should perhaps vet and limit who gets to cast what, rather than simply allowing it to be a free for all for anyone with a Ustream channel.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 06 2010 01:04 genai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:01 AmaZing wrote:
but seriously if a fucking player does not want you in the freaking game, he doesnt want you in the FREAKING GAME! So bm these ppl. I know BigT wasnt at fault and i didnt think he was at fault the last time either but WOW wtf. because a caster "WANTED TO JOIN", STFU and join one of the other 31 games... ffs If a player doesnt want obs in the freaking game... then dont join the tournament where you need to have (rules) said tournaments obs in the game... stfu and join 10 other tournaments!
If the player complains of LAG stfu and tell those streamers to fuck off.. BM is BM either way.
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On September 06 2010 01:10 SoL[9] wrote:
Ya i agreed with the rule that player need to let the streamers cast their game. But not like ESL do...They have 21526534645 observers in one game come on that is stupid is like my english...
3/4 streams is fine.
I remember watching Morrow vs Dimaga. Morrow say to them to leave and ofc nobody leaves.
In first game Morrow blame lag to for losing a few reapers and in 3 game probably a more serious problem 1 caster lag the game when Dimaga was doing a crucial attack. He fail and loss the game. So ESL should have 3/4 officials streamers per game.
BNet needs the ability to set a lobby to invite only. It's absolutely absurd than anyone can join a game on a friend without knowing if they're welcome or not. Even if you enable the ability to join on a friend, the lobby host should get a pop-up that says "X wishes to join the lobby. Accept? Y/N".
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I think the main problem is the totaly ****ed up observer count. Esl should provide 1 german (cause they are german) and 1-2 featured international Streams and done. Those laggy obs and friends just make the tournament more difficult.
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I really think this is stupid, and I think most of the casters out there forcing themselves into games are morons.
If the tournament says they want casters in the game, they should get there own official fricking caster to do it, not get the whole game full with 10 other people all live streaming one game.
One person observing, then have casters restream the game and do commentary without flooding the game and causing potential lag, slowdowns.
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it was the final and take is the official streamer. its just retarded to not let him join...have fun with the ban.
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cause having 10 different streamers is needed right.
it just laggs the game and breaks the players concentration
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BigT strikes again. Why would a private message(even streamed, streamers are not supposed to stream chats I guess) taken into consideration ...
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Cast the replays.
TSL baby, TSL. \m/
Or, if you want to attempt live..
Start with a streamer...
Keep the players in optimal conditions.
If lag occurs, save replays, turn them into the tournament admins for delayed broadcast.
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but all of you dont get it that there is exactly !1! offical stream. its not about freaking 10 obs slowing the game down but not letting the OFFICIAL stream in........
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On September 06 2010 01:14 Kerotan89 wrote:
I really think this is stupid, and I think most of the casters out there forcing themselves into games are morons.
As said before, its a rule. But it shows something Blizzard should realy consider changing:
The "follow"-feature for all custom games was the most imprudent one ever. It would have been a better approach by Blizzard to develop something along the line of waaaghtv. Maybe for the second featurepatch?
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Only one streamer should be needed. It's not fair to players when their performance has to suffer because of observers.
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On September 06 2010 01:19 TRAP[yoo] wrote:
but all of you dont get it that there is exactly !1! offical stream. its not about freaking 10 obs slowing the game down but not letting the OFFICIAL stream in........
If the official stream results in lag, then this needs to be voiced to the admin.
Then do as follows:
Save replays, turn them into the caster, let the official cast do a slightly delayed broadcast.
The difference is, what, 30 minutes?
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On September 06 2010 00:56 RifleCow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 00:44 HolydaKing wrote:From what i remember he didn't let TaKe join (or did he just start the game without him?) and after that he said the following stuff to BigT: http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/2017/morrowfail.jpgThat being said, there's probably more about it! Edit: Apparently he just started the game even though he knew Take (ESL TV) wanted to join!
Shouldn't of posted that picture man, you got him banned for 2 additional weeks because of it.
This is wrong. You shouldn't have used the word "of" in place of "have."
Also, this is another reminder to watch what you say on battle.net and online in general. Everything is logged and in this case streamed.
That said, I agree with the ban. Tournaments aren't about playing the game. The whole point of a Tournament is to have spectators watch the game being played. The event is not for the players, it is for the spectators.
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On September 06 2010 01:10 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:07 GenoZStriker wrote:On September 06 2010 01:05 youngminii wrote:
Don't defend him just because you're a fanboy. Sure, I like Morrow, I think he's usually very manner, however this was a 100% dickish move on his part and anyone trying to defend his actions needs to reevaluate how they view things.
That said, I do find it strange coming from Morrow, he's usually not dickish at all. What's more dickish? Obs refusing to not leave the game when they are lagging or MorroW refusing the laggers to join in and go with a small numbers of obs (including the official streamer ESL) That's a good deal of utter bullshit you just pulled out from your ass.
He kept it at your level.
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On September 06 2010 01 Fadetowhite wrote:
cause having 10 different streamers is needed right.
it just laggs the game and breaks the players concentration
There is just one official Streamer and that is Take.
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Instead of banning people, I think the ESL needs to look at how it's running this tournement. Seriously, if two of the top players are having problems with streamers for whatever reason, maybe something needs to change.
Maybe ESL needs to learn from MLG a little bit. According to JP's story, when he wanted to cast the second game between Nony and Incontrol and Incontrol said no, they didn't cast it. Hint, if you're income depends on people coming to watch the top SC2 players play, maybe you should give them some respect.
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On September 06 2010 01:07 DorN wrote:
No Stream => No Premium Viewers => No Money for the ESL => No Pricemoney => No Cup
Have fun with the Ban Morrow.
I'm sure he couldn't care less. It's not like he can't do anything else during those two weeks....
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United States12607 Posts
I don't see why everyone is coming down so hard on ESL for this. Having so many casters might be inefficient but it's how they have chosen to run their tournament, and the players are all playing in that tournament knowing about the many obs. MorroW wants a shot at ESL's $200? He has to play by ESL's rules.
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On September 06 2010 01:14 Kerotan89 wrote:
I really think this is stupid, and I think most of the casters out there forcing themselves into games are morons.
If the tournament says they want casters in the game, they should get there own official fricking caster to do it, not get the whole game full with 10 other people all live streaming one game.
One person observing, then have casters restream the game and do commentary without flooding the game and causing potential lag, slowdowns.
Yeah, this tournament is just awful so far. Banning players because random Obs aren't allowed in the game. That's sure to add credibility to your tournament.
Like someone else said :
1 Official caster (german?)
1 or 2 Back up casters for the rest of us
No other obs
How is that so hard to understand?
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There's an ESL- rule that clearly says
you MUST allow a caster/ESL-admin to observe the game
and there's a fixed penalty for not following this rule
it has absolutely NOTHING to do with "he doesn't want to show his strats rofl"
there was quite a lot lag in those matches but he still must allow the esl guys to observe..all those randoms can of course be kicked
he didn't let anyone into the match including Take (i was watching his stream there)
which is even worse than don't letting big-t join....
User was warned for this post (posting entirely in bold)
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On September 06 2010 01:23 OreoBoi wrote:
Instead of banning people, I think the ESL needs to look at how it's running this tournement. Seriously, if two of the top players are having problems with streamers for whatever reason, maybe something needs to change.
Maybe ESL needs to learn from MLG a little bit. According to JP's story, when he wanted to cast the second game between Nony and Incontrol and Incontrol said no, they didn't cast it. Hint, if you're income depends on people coming to watch the top SC2 players play, maybe you should give them some respect.
And the counterpoint to that is, players aren't going to get paid if sponsors walk away because players get too big for their booties and say 'no, you may not cast me, I am too important'. It's give and take. As far as I'm concerned, if you're in a tournament with casters, you consent to be cast. That's how the money gets injected into ESPORTS and that's how you as a player will get some of that money. That doesn't excuse randoms + a billion streamers out of fuckin nowhere piling into a game mind you.
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On September 06 2010 00:46 DonKey_ wrote:
....wow I'm sorry but this shit is retarded; to disallow a gamer from having a choice if he wants obs is retarded.
If this was the semifinals match or even the quarter finals i could see mandatory obs being expected, but not in like ro64 and such.
There are too many amateur commentators with <100 viewers who think they're important enough to join pros' games. That's why the lobby gets crowded and the game is too laggy for players.
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On September 06 2010 01:24 Kurr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:14 Kerotan89 wrote:
I really think this is stupid, and I think most of the casters out there forcing themselves into games are morons.
If the tournament says they want casters in the game, they should get there own official fricking caster to do it, not get the whole game full with 10 other people all live streaming one game.
One person observing, then have casters restream the game and do commentary without flooding the game and causing potential lag, slowdowns. Yeah, this tournament is just awful so far. Banning players because random Obs aren't allowed in the game. That's sure to add credibility to your tournament. Like someone else said : 1 Official caster (german?) 1 or 2 Back up casters for the rest of us No other obs How is that so hard to understand?
read the thread first :/ he didnt allow Take in the game ... Take = official Esl caster...
Esl awful tournament ? its one of best imo
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On September 06 2010 01:23 OreoBoi wrote:
Instead of banning people, I think the ESL needs to look at how it's running this tournement. Seriously, if two of the top players are having problems with streamers for whatever reason, maybe something needs to change.
Maybe ESL needs to learn from MLG a little bit. According to JP's story, when he wanted to cast the second game between Nony and Incontrol and Incontrol said no, they didn't cast it. Hint, if you're income depends on people coming to watch the top SC2 players play, maybe you should give them some respect.
dude it was on lan and incontrol was upset because he lost the first game...thats totally different.
its a weekly cup and you agree to certain rules if you want to participate. that means that you have to let the OFFICIAL streamer in. thats one guy and its not like he has the crappiest pc or connection ever and always ruins games.
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His fault for not allowing the admin/caster TaKe in the game, I can understand denying an American caster due to latency issues but there is no valid reason to reject an admin.
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Morrow is just jealous that TaKe has his own Fanthread on TL and he doesn't.
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There's a reason why you don't want many observers and it's pretty obvious.
Give the players some respect. If they feel the obs are making them play worse. Leave on streamer in and toss out the rest. It's so retarded to see games with 10-12 obs and people think the players should stop complaining.
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On September 06 2010 01:26 smileyyy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:24 Kurr wrote:On September 06 2010 01:14 Kerotan89 wrote:
I really think this is stupid, and I think most of the casters out there forcing themselves into games are morons.
If the tournament says they want casters in the game, they should get there own official fricking caster to do it, not get the whole game full with 10 other people all live streaming one game.
One person observing, then have casters restream the game and do commentary without flooding the game and causing potential lag, slowdowns. Yeah, this tournament is just awful so far. Banning players because random Obs aren't allowed in the game. That's sure to add credibility to your tournament. Like someone else said : 1 Official caster (german?) 1 or 2 Back up casters for the rest of us No other obs How is that so hard to understand? read the thread first :/ he didnt allow Take in the game ... Take = official Esl caster... Esl awful tournament ? its one of best imo
I did read the thread and I saw that. Honestly I didn't even know until now that he was the official caster. Why? Because the tournament is all over the place! This is information that should be given from the get go. "Ok, this is the official casters and these are the back-up casters. Feel free to kick anyone else in your games." That one sentence should've been in the OP of the tournament thread.
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On September 06 2010 01:29 underscore wrote:
Morrow is just jealous that TaKe has his own Fanthread on TL and he doesn't.
MorroW has many fan threads on TL, they are called "Terran/Reaper imba"
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On September 06 2010 01:29 MaYuu wrote:
There's a reason why you don't want many observers and it's pretty obvious.
Give the players some respect. If they feel the obs are making them play worse. Leave on streamer in and toss out the rest. It's so retarded to see games with 10-12 obs and people think the players should stop complaining.
read the thread pls.
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he didnt want him in the match to watch....big whoop,...doesnt merit a ban on another tournament
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There is a similar situation going on as we speak with Huk against Scott on GosuGamers stream. Huk was down 2-0. Started 3rd game, said there was lag. Paused game told streamers to leave, they didn't leave. He quit game, and they are trying to start the game without admin or streamers.
Edit: These are the finals
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On September 06 2010 01:33 gundream wrote:
he didnt want him in the match to watch....big whoop,...doesnt merit a ban on another tournament
Yeah because if I was an admin in a tournament and someone broke the rules I set I'd just ignore it and hope it'd go away ¬¬.
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their tournament - their rules!
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On September 06 2010 01:35 bmml wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:33 gundream wrote:
he didnt want him in the match to watch....big whoop,...doesnt merit a ban on another tournament Yeah because if I was an admin in a tournament and someone broke the rules I set I'd just ignore it and hope it'd go away ¬¬.
There are other things you can do than ban people.
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On September 06 2010 01:30 Kurr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:26 smileyyy wrote:On September 06 2010 01:24 Kurr wrote:On September 06 2010 01:14 Kerotan89 wrote:
I really think this is stupid, and I think most of the casters out there forcing themselves into games are morons.
If the tournament says they want casters in the game, they should get there own official fricking caster to do it, not get the whole game full with 10 other people all live streaming one game.
One person observing, then have casters restream the game and do commentary without flooding the game and causing potential lag, slowdowns. Yeah, this tournament is just awful so far. Banning players because random Obs aren't allowed in the game. That's sure to add credibility to your tournament. Like someone else said : 1 Official caster (german?) 1 or 2 Back up casters for the rest of us No other obs How is that so hard to understand? read the thread first :/ he didnt allow Take in the game ... Take = official Esl caster... Esl awful tournament ? its one of best imo I did read the thread and I saw that. Honestly I didn't even know until now that he was the official caster. Why? Because the tournament is all over the place! This is information that should be given from the get go. "Ok, this is the official casters and these are the back-up casters. Feel free to kick anyone else in your games." That one sentence should've been in the OP of the tournament thread.
All the Info is already there ... http://www.esl.eu/eu/sc2/go4sc2/cup35/leagueinfo/ ---> http://www.esl.eu/eu/sc2/streams/ and its not like its the first time Take ever streamed this lol. He saw him in person 2 weeks ago on the IEM :D. He fully knew what he did so no excuses. The ban itself is well deserved.
But I agree with everyone else that theyre too many obs in the game.
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yeah these players are being bitches, follow the rules you assholes
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Now there's only a German stream to watch the esl. How can we get english commentaries?
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On September 06 2010 01:38 Tdelamay wrote:
Now there's only a German stream to watch the esl. How can we get english commentaries?
You're not missing any good English casters anyway. Just enjoy TaKe's awesomeness.
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So morrow pulled an Idra? Maybe a friendship is developing here =o
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The entire "not showing off the strats" argument is LOL. Real athletes must compete in the open, where others can watch... and that's what we're all after, right? To have SC respected as a sport it has to be run as a sport.
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On September 06 2010 01:25 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:23 OreoBoi wrote:
Instead of banning people, I think the ESL needs to look at how it's running this tournement. Seriously, if two of the top players are having problems with streamers for whatever reason, maybe something needs to change.
Maybe ESL needs to learn from MLG a little bit. According to JP's story, when he wanted to cast the second game between Nony and Incontrol and Incontrol said no, they didn't cast it. Hint, if you're income depends on people coming to watch the top SC2 players play, maybe you should give them some respect. And the counterpoint to that is, players aren't going to get paid if sponsors walk away because players get too big for their booties and say 'no, you may not cast me, I am too important'. It's give and take. As far as I'm concerned, if you're in a tournament with casters, you consent to be cast. That's how the money gets injected into ESPORTS and that's how you as a player will get some of that money. That doesn't excuse randoms + a billion streamers out of fuckin nowhere piling into a game mind you.
Nothing is stopping them form casting the replays. If it's a lag issue, I think that's best. I don't want to sit there and watch lag, I get enough of that while I'm playing 3v3 or 4v4. If it's the players saying, I don't want to be casted, then that's a different issue. IMO it would be best for the tournament to try and solve the lag issues instead of banning players.
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If there is lag, the players have every right to kick out streamers, but the official streamer should be the last one out. Sounds like a poorly run tournament.
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i won vs dimaga out of lag with 14 casters the entire series, was unplayable
then in finals they wanted 14 casters again and i started without them in game 1, then game 2 and on i let them watch
apologized for real afterwards, got angry because of the lag and disrespect of the admins to ignore what i had to say and thats why i started without them. ill be back after the ban time and i have cleared the air with them
they will change their rules soon because situations like this are ridiculous which they agreed on
there was no bad mannering going on here from either of the parties thats the truth
On September 06 2010 01:37 travis wrote:
yeah these players are being bitches, follow the rules you assholes
your ignorant and disrespectful
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Well I think in general the audience (including casters and admins) are just missing some manners towards the players since sc2 came out.
This game is not about who is best at handling lag. I dont think this a skill you have to learn to get a better player in any way. This game should be about who is best at playing the game and nothing else. Especially if money is on the line I just have complete understanding for the behaviours of MorroW, HuK and whoelse is defending themselves. Im just fine with getting replays casted too, it does not make any difference for me.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
It's not like Morrow needs to be playing in EPS Nordic anyway.... there's a reason most top players skip these cups and it's not because they're lazy.
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On September 06 2010 01:01 AmaZing wrote:
but seriously if a fucking player does not want you in the freaking game, he doesnt want you in the FREAKING GAME! So bm these ppl. I know BigT wasnt at fault and i didnt think he was at fault the last time either but WOW wtf. because a caster "WANTED TO JOIN", STFU and join one of the other 31 games... ffs
Organized tournaments and leagues are not the players' personal playgrounds where they can do whatever they want. If following rules is too difficult, don't sign up.
Totally with ESL on this one.
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On September 06 2010 01:40 MorroW wrote:
i won vs dimaga out of lag with 14 casters the entire series, was unplayable
then in finals they wanted 14 casters again and i started without them in game 1, then game 2 and on i let them watch
apologized for real afterwards, got angry because of the lag and disrespect of the admins to ignore what i had to say and thats why i started without them. ill be back after the ban time and i have cleared the air with them
they will change their rules soon because situations like this are ridiculous which they agreed on
there was no bad mannering going on here from either of the parties thats the truth
well at least morrow himself clears up whats happening. oh well
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Wish they would start replay casting if not at a LAN. Not like us viewers miss anything, also removes chances of stream listening.
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Thanks for clearing that up MorroW. Stay awesome.
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ESL allowing 14 casters inside a battle 0.2 game is what is ridiclous, I mean really? Are you that naive that you think its going to be a good lag-free experience for the players/spectators?
ESL needs to become more professional instead of trying to please every BigT out there
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let me just state for the record that im banned from the next 3 go4sc2 cups, nothing else
dont listen to everything the press
let me just finish this by saying it was just stupid and immature of me to take the problem and try solve it myself by not letting them cast, i regret it but i think getting a ban was harsh, im just happy that its not gonna stay like this forever because lately almost all tournaments have been giving too little damn about the players
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Casters/tourney organizers should just institute a rule to have players upload replays immediately after each game is completed (with initial access only to casters) and have the casters just cast the games right after they are completed. That way there is no problem...
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On September 06 2010 01:43 Senx wrote:
ESL allowing 14 casters inside a battle 0.2 game is what is ridiclous, I mean really? Are you that naive that you think its going to be a good lag-free experience for the players/spectators?
To be fair; I blame the non-official casters much more than ESL. The casters shouldn't have to be told not to cause problems. People want to see the games, not the casters. You're not more important than the players.
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I remember this. I was watching the stream when this happened.
The reason Morrow did this, it seems, was because having almost 2 dozen observers (was like 24 in one of the games) lagged the games to hell. If you watched Morrow vs Dimaga game 3, lag from obvs ruined that game.
This game was directly after that game and I can understand his feelings of not waiting for a bunch of observers to come swarm the game.
Essentially, this ban is the organizers covering up the fact they fucked up andtrying to avoid look like fools for letting near 20 people into a single game to obsererve.
Even tho the strat Morrow used in that 3rd game vs dimaga makes my blood boil, I am on his side in this argument considering the conditions of that tourny.
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On September 06 2010 01:37 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:35 bmml wrote:On September 06 2010 01:33 gundream wrote:
he didnt want him in the match to watch....big whoop,...doesnt merit a ban on another tournament Yeah because if I was an admin in a tournament and someone broke the rules I set I'd just ignore it and hope it'd go away ¬¬. There are other things you can do than ban people.
Such as?
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On September 06 2010 01:46 bmml wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:37 nihlon wrote:On September 06 2010 01:35 bmml wrote:On September 06 2010 01:33 gundream wrote:
he didnt want him in the match to watch....big whoop,...doesnt merit a ban on another tournament Yeah because if I was an admin in a tournament and someone broke the rules I set I'd just ignore it and hope it'd go away ¬¬. There are other things you can do than ban people. Such as?
change the ridiculous rules...
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live casting is fucking ridiculous for so many reasons
this really needs to be stopped.
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On September 06 2010 01:48 IdrA wrote:
live casting is fucking ridiculous for so many reasons
this really needs to be stopped. idra finally says something i agree with
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On September 06 2010 01:40 MorroW wrote:i won vs dimaga out of lag with 14 casters the entire series, was unplayable then in finals they wanted 14 casters again and i started without them in game 1, then game 2 and on i let them watch apologized for real afterwards, got angry because of the lag and disrespect of the admins to ignore what i had to say and thats why i started without them. ill be back after the ban time and i have cleared the air with them they will change their rules soon because situations like this are ridiculous which they agreed on there was no bad mannering going on here from either of the parties thats the truth Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:37 travis wrote:
yeah these players are being bitches, follow the rules you assholes your ignorant and disrespectful
ignorant of what? so you didn't break the rules? what is it im not understanding here, it sounds like you just admitted you acted like a baby and broke the rules.
I wasn't trying to offend you, if I did the same thing I'd say the same thing about myself lol
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On September 06 2010 01:48 IdrA wrote:
live casting is fucking ridiculous for so many reasons
this really needs to be stopped.
Cheating by having the stream going on a 2nd PC is probably rampant for non-LAN games.
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Tournament organizers should be held to higher standards than players.
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Is the ESL going to offer an english stream? Otherwise I most likely stay away from all of this. I don't find german streams as interesting to watch.
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On September 06 2010 01:46 bmml wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:37 nihlon wrote:On September 06 2010 01:35 bmml wrote:On September 06 2010 01:33 gundream wrote:
he didnt want him in the match to watch....big whoop,...doesnt merit a ban on another tournament Yeah because if I was an admin in a tournament and someone broke the rules I set I'd just ignore it and hope it'd go away ¬¬. There are other things you can do than ban people. Such as?
Oh come on, seriously? If you are suggesting that the only way to punish players is to ban them you are either completely lacking imagination or just lacking in IQ...
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well i have to admit the morrow vs dimaga matches were really lagging SOOO MUCH
even dimaga was pissed and got angry in the chat...and that should definately tell somehing ^^
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The amount of obs and casters/streamers is causing problems. Officials or streamers refuse to leave games (even when they are lagging), so I can understand players being irritated by that.
All they need is to establish "official" streamers, who have access to good/stable bandwidth.
Hopefully there's no ghosting during live match, something which would make me worry if thousands of dollars were at stake.
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On September 06 2010 01:47 The_DjiN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:46 bmml wrote:On September 06 2010 01:37 nihlon wrote:On September 06 2010 01:35 bmml wrote:On September 06 2010 01:33 gundream wrote:
he didnt want him in the match to watch....big whoop,...doesnt merit a ban on another tournament Yeah because if I was an admin in a tournament and someone broke the rules I set I'd just ignore it and hope it'd go away ¬¬. There are other things you can do than ban people. Such as? change the ridiculous rules...
Having an admin present in game sounds like a ridiculous rule to me...
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On September 06 2010 01:50 Tdelamay wrote:
Is the ESL going to offer an english stream? Otherwise I most likely stay away from all of this. I don't find german streams as interesting to watch.
Spend 2 seconds and you should be able to find the english cast. Jesus, some of the laziness around here fucking blows my mind.
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On September 06 2010 01 Senx wrote:
ESL allowing 14 casters inside a battle 0.2 game is what is ridiclous, I mean really? Are you that naive that you think its going to be a good lag-free experience for the players/spectators?
ESL needs to become more professional instead of trying to please every BigT out there
Thats just Bullshit there are no 14 ESL casters.
So dont blame them when they tolerate english streams that are not officially supported like BigT.
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If you lag as an obs be it streamer or admin, you leave the game.
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On September 06 2010 01:50 Tdelamay wrote:
Is the ESL going to offer an english stream? Otherwise I most likely stay away from all of this. I don't find german streams as interesting to watch.
Yes, I dont understand why they are not streaming in english. It would just get so many more viewers on the streams. But unfortunately TaKe's english is pain in the ears and they seem to be unwilling to get someone new on the crew.
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For the life of me I can't understand why they are doing live castings?
Day[9] King of the beta was the most well organized (and most exciting) tournament so far. Follow his lead please.
Anyways this probably turned out well in the end as far as I understand and that's great ;p
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All ESL needs to say is .. 1 official stream and 1 referee, the rest - get the fuck out.
But they don't. They let every caster, their friend and their dog into tournament matches and then they ban players when the players finally get fed up with having over a dozen people ruining their chances to compete beacuse of high latency.
Sure Esports is bigger than all of us, but you don't let 14 people into a online streamed game if you want e-sports to grow.
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Woot how many casters were there?
How about 2-3?
1 German and two really good English ones such as GLHF.tv and Gosugamers. May be unfair towards other casters but the games and player matter... not the huge amount of casters out there.
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Casting should be at the discretion of the players... if the casters bein in the game fuckers over the latency then they should be kicked out. Replays can be supplied later for casting nothing is that life and death.
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if there's lag, I could see getting rid of obs/streamers etc but you'd think the "official" tournament streamer would be the last one to go
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On September 06 2010 01:54 Senx wrote:
But they don't. They let every caster, their friend and their dog into tournament matches and then they ban players when the players finally get fed up with having over a dozen people ruining their chances to compete beacuse of high latency.
yeah it seems incredibly unprofessional :-(
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On September 06 2010 01:48 IdrA wrote:
live casting is fucking ridiculous for so many reasons
this really needs to be stopped.
Yep. Only one is really needed, why the hell were there 14 in IEM...
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Who the fuck are these people to think they can impose lag in your games ? Can't they just get the damn replay and stream with like a 15 minutes delay ? Like people would watch "live" outside of korea anyways...
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change the ridiculous rules...[/QUOTE]
yea x2
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On September 06 2010 01:48 IdrA wrote:
live casting is fucking ridiculous for so many reasons
this really needs to be stopped.
if you now start to include reasons we could actually see what you're talking about.
no cast = no viewers = no income = no prices for the tournament. And especially YOU who plays in Korea where alot of matches are cast should understand it the most.
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On September 06 2010 01:52 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:50 Tdelamay wrote:
Is the ESL going to offer an english stream? Otherwise I most likely stay away from all of this. I don't find german streams as interesting to watch. Spend 2 seconds and you should be able to find the english cast. Jesus, some of the laziness around here fucking blows my mind.
They changed the streaming rules, Bacon. Now only esl tv is allowed to stream the quarter final and up. If they do not stream in english, then there won't be any.
You are also very rude.
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On September 06 2010 01:54 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:
Woot how many casters were there?
How about 2-3?
1 German and two really good English ones such as GLHF.tv and Gosugamers. May be unfair towards other casters but the games and player matter... not the huge amount of casters out there.
On September 06 2010 01:40 MorroW wrote:i won vs dimaga out of lag with 14 casters the entire series, was unplayable then in finals they wanted 14 casters again and i started without them in game 1, then game 2 and on i let them watch apologized for real afterwards, got angry because of the lag and disrespect of the admins to ignore what i had to say and thats why i started without them. ill be back after the ban time and i have cleared the air with them they will change their rules soon because situations like this are ridiculous which they agreed on there was no bad mannering going on here from either of the parties thats the truth Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:37 travis wrote:
yeah these players are being bitches, follow the rules you assholes your ignorant and disrespectful
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On September 06 2010 01:57 c0rn1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:48 IdrA wrote:
live casting is fucking ridiculous for so many reasons
this really needs to be stopped. if you now start to include reasons we could actually see what you're talking about. no cast = no viewers = no income = no prices for the tournament. And especially YOU who plays in Korea where alot of matches are cast should understand it the most.
Well IdrA is coming from BW and in the BW scene it was quite common to cast from replays. For Wc3 players that's absurd, since it hardly ever happened there. Scores spread too fast to cast from replays at such daily tournaments. At TSL for example it worked fine, but i doubt it could go well at for example Go4SC2 cups.
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What is with all the Morrow hate? I think the real culprit here is the ESL.
Last Wednesday when TaKe and DeMuslim were casting Morrow vs Dimaga there were ridiculously many casters. Morrow asked for people to leave, but not a single person left, and no ESL admin said anything. I dunno if Take and Demuslim were the ones supposed to ask streamers to leave, or perhaps there was an ESL admin, but there should have been an ESL admin (whether Take or someone else) to tell streamers and non-essential observers to gtfo. They finally played the game since apparently no one was caring at all about what Morrow said.
Now this stuff happens again and it's understandable that Morrow is pissed. Not allowing Take to join was a stupid thing to do, but as I see it there was no right thing for Morrow to do. He could have insisted on removing casters and been met by silence and inaction followed by a "rdy morrow?" He may not have chosen the best option, but it must have been frustrating as hell to be him and I totally understand not acting rationally in such a situation.
Both parties are to blame, but ESL is the ones that need to realize that they must do something different in the future.
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On September 06 2010 01:57 Tdelamay wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:52 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On September 06 2010 01:50 Tdelamay wrote:
Is the ESL going to offer an english stream? Otherwise I most likely stay away from all of this. I don't find german streams as interesting to watch. Spend 2 seconds and you should be able to find the english cast. Jesus, some of the laziness around here fucking blows my mind. They changed the streaming rules, Bacon. Now only esl tv is allowed to stream the quarter final and up. If they do not stream in english, then there won't be any. You are also very rude.
If that's true I retract my statement slightly. There are still english casts going on and if you actually care about the game, then the language shouldn't matter. None of the english casters (who are currently streaming) have any meaningful insight to add to the game. Watch muted, with german, or don't watch.
edit: and if it's true, Kudos to ESL for their desire to minimize bull shit in the finals/semis.
I don't feel like hitting multi-quote, but whoever quoted IdrA... he's talking about casting from replays. Not just stopping casting all together. Casting live games means more lag, more possible problems on multiple ends, more downtime for viewers because you can't just go from one game to the next, etc. Casting replays is smooth and appeases to players. Yes, it's not live, but if all you care about is the results live then I'm sure you could find updates rather than watch any game at all.
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lol at that screen shot fail
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On September 06 2010 00:56 RifleCow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 00:44 HolydaKing wrote:From what i remember he didn't let TaKe join (or did he just start the game without him?) and after that he said the following stuff to BigT: http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/2017/morrowfail.jpgThat being said, there's probably more about it! Edit: Apparently he just started the game even though he knew Take (ESL TV) wanted to join! Shouldn't of posted that picture man, you got him banned for 2 additional weeks because of it.
that pic was all over the esl irc channels that day... nothing new
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Seriously ban all the rus from being spectator. I bet 100$ they were causing the lag.
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Seriously, having 12 obs either way casting or not is freaking Stupid. So the admins are just saying this. "FUCK THE LAG AND FUCK YOU MORROW!" while while were at it, GET BANNED! If you really want to cast the bloody games so bad Ask the replays to be posted 5 mins after the gg has been called and cast that. When idra got banned for refusing casters while playing from korea, there was a similar respose from the esl admin, ban!!!!! They really need to figure out their rules so it wont affect the players GAMES. Isnt that the whole point tho? wanting to see the players at their best? having 1 "official caster" might be the way and the rest have to make due with replays. Even though i said that, morrow maybe should have just invited 1 admin and just started the game. Although morrow already mentioned the admins ignoring him. although a Stupid rule exists. its a rule.
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On September 06 2010 00:49 arew wrote:
I don't get why it's such a big deal of not letting caster to obs...
so u really dont get why the guys who finance the tournament are angry because they are not allowed to cast their own tournament? really?
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On September 06 2010 02:02 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:57 Tdelamay wrote:On September 06 2010 01:52 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On September 06 2010 01:50 Tdelamay wrote:
Is the ESL going to offer an english stream? Otherwise I most likely stay away from all of this. I don't find german streams as interesting to watch. Spend 2 seconds and you should be able to find the english cast. Jesus, some of the laziness around here fucking blows my mind. They changed the streaming rules, Bacon. Now only esl tv is allowed to stream the quarter final and up. If they do not stream in english, then there won't be any. You are also very rude. If that's true I retract my statement slightly. There are still english casts going on and if you actually care about the game, then the language shouldn't matter. None of the english casters (who are currently streaming) have any meaningful insight to add to the game. Watch muted, with german, or don't watch. edit: and if it's true, Kudos to ESL for their desire to minimize bull shit in the finals/semis. I don't feel like hitting multi-quote, but whoever quoted IdrA... he's talking about casting from replays. Not just stopping casting all together. Casting live games means more lag, more possible problems on multiple ends, more downtime for viewers because you can't just go from one game to the next, etc. Casting replays is smooth and appeases to players. Yes, it's not live, but if all you care about is the results live then I'm sure you could find updates rather than watch any game at all.
Watching muted streams can be fun, but I personally enjoy listening to the commentaries without the video. It's my way of enjoying these games.
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hi TL community.. first post yaaay. even a drama post ;D
im living in germany. i was visiting gamescom "IEM" where ive seen morrow playing against idra. you guys remember the interview by take after the match? "lets not talk about imbalanced" was the first thing he told to idra after the finals. anyway:
i remember this stream by take. he was streaming from his home. he was drinking about 3 beers and was totally drunk. he was sitting on his couch, bouncing to some shitty gangster music. (really narcissistic), making fun of his girlfriend cleanig his appartement... finally right when the game started he was like "i have to go to the toilet"...........
WTF?! something like this is called "official"? my friends and me could not stop laughing after this.
also at this cast he was the reason for a big drama because he lagged out of a game and they had to rematch because of it.
im just writing this because i see people here are defending the ESL.
just wanted to let you know on which side you are.
<3 sc2 drama.
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On September 06 2010 00:59 apm66 wrote:
Sounds like MorroW has a really big ego now!
MorroW:
"I told them that I regret it"
"but I don't"
"xD"
This is nothing new, all of the interviews he claims that no other terran is up to his level yet, that he is the best terran right now, etc... Just making statements like that, with the smirk on his face after wins, he is a very egotistical little prick.
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Bad rules were made to be broken. Its all a part of civil disobedience if you break a rule that you don't believe in and suffer the consequences. If there is a bad rule out there, the bravest goes out to break it so that the same crap doesn't happen to other people. Its such an easy concept.
MorroW did the right thing by standing up to the ESL and their ridiculous rules, and he accepted the ban like a man.
On a side note, I always thought that the IEM was bs too because it used Battle.Net as a medium for play, but the fault is most likely in part with Blizzard for not releasing a LAN feature for tournaments like they promised (I don't even think GSL has that).
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They should just get the replays afterwards and stream those, it's not that hard is it? I don't understand at all, why they need to cast all the games live, especially if it's annoying for every player because of the latency.
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I think i saw this on the stream. Morrow acted REALLY arrogant, on the other hand, should I blame him? In the semis against dimaga he said he would let bigT, gosugamers, ESL and maybe one more person obs but demanded everybody else out. Admin said the head admin approves all the obs be there and they started. The in the beginning of the first game Morrow was complaining about lag, but dimaga and also other casters said the game was running smooth for them.
HOWEVER - in the deciding game Morrow rushed and there was MASSIVE lag totally making impossible to micro for both sides in tense moment.
So yea, i think the rules should be changed.
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On September 06 2010 00:59 apm66 wrote:
Sounds like MorroW has a really big ego now!
MorroW:
"I told them that I regret it"
"but I don't"
"xD"
Lol you think that anyone who is really fucking good at SC2 (i.e. goes to lans) doesn't have a really big ego when it comes to SC2?
Some people just have better ettiquette in public (which is a good thing). But if morrow didn't think that conversation would go public it's completely normal.
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On September 06 2010 01:59 HolydaKing wrote:
Well IdrA is coming from BW and in the BW scene it was quite common to cast from replays. For Wc3 players that's absurd, since it hardly ever happened there. Scores spread too fast to cast from replays at such daily tournaments. At TSL for example it worked fine, but i doubt it could go well at for example Go4SC2 cups.
Well, E-Sports is slowly creeping up to the masses. And rather than changing rules, I'd like to see some invention. What is so hard to have 1-2 dedicated ESL streamer join the game, stream it in HQ without casting and the casters can connect to it?
Instead of complaining and raging players should help to try to find a solution and support it. I do agree that every additional caster in the game raises the chance of lag exponentially but the times of replaycasts are over since sc2 is a fast-growing scene and has such a swift information exchange that the cast of a replay is old already when it starts.
Imagine a football (soccer for the US) WC with a cast of replays? or an NHL stanley cup final without livecast?
cheers
c0rn1
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seriously, are required 14 observers/casters/referees/friends in a single match??
Com´on....
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Livecasting is part of the excitement of sports, E or otherwise. People who say they 'just don't get' livecasting, just don't get sports.
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On September 06 2010 02:13 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Livecasting is part of the excitement of sports, E or otherwise. People who say they 'just don't get' livecasting, just don't get sports.
The difference is that if you broadcast a football game online it doesn't effect the players while the same can't be said for a sc2 game.
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United States22883 Posts
On September 06 2010 02:13 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Livecasting is part of the excitement of sports, E or otherwise. People who say they 'just don't get' livecasting, just don't get sports.
There's a reason ESPN/ABC/TNT delay, cut and edit the coach's comments when they give them microphones during the game.
This is essentially the same. I understand the excitement of livecasting but because Blizzard didn't implement any way to delay like HLTV has, the best option for the players/fans is live casted replays as soon as the game finishes.
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On September 06 2010 02:06 leecH wrote:
hi TL community.. first post yaaay. even a drama post ;D
im living in germany. i was visiting gamescom "IEM" where ive seen morrow playing against idra. you guys remember the interview by take after the match? "lets not talk about imbalanced" was the first thing he told to idra after the finals. anyway:
i remember this stream by take. he was streaming from his home. he was drinking about 3 beers and was totally drunk. he was sitting on his couch, bouncing to some shitty gangster music. (really narcissistic), making fun of his girlfriend cleanig his appartement... finally right when the game started he was like "i have to go to the toilet"...........
WTF?! something like this is called "official"? my friends and me could not stop laughing after this.
also at this cast he was the reason for a big drama because he lagged out of a game and they had to rematch because of it.
im just writing this because i see people here are defending the ESL.
just wanted to let you know on which side you are.
<3 sc2 drama.
Haha, this post really cracked me up for some reason.
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That's too bad you got banned. Why they need 14 know-nothing casters rambling on about bullshit and stating the obvious makes no sense to me. I like Day9 because he adds some comic relief to the games which is needed. So many casters are HORRIBLE at the game and they talk with authority... gross. :/
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On September 06 2010 02:16 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:13 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Livecasting is part of the excitement of sports, E or otherwise. People who say they 'just don't get' livecasting, just don't get sports. There's a reason ESPN/ABC/TNT delay, cut and edit the coach's comments when they give them microphones during the game. This is essentially the same. I understand the excitement of livecasting but because Blizzard didn't implement any way to delay like HLTV has, the best option for the players/fans is live casted replays as soon as the game finishes.
American live broadcasts must be very different to European, or at least English, live broadcasts. Oo
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On September 06 2010 02:17 starcraft911 wrote:
That's too bad you got banned. Why they need 14 know-nothing casters rambling on about bullshit and stating the obvious makes no sense to me. I like Day9 because he adds some comic relief to the games which is needed. So many casters are HORRIBLE at the game and they talk with authority... gross. :/
so its up to you to decide which casters are good and which arent?
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On September 06 2010 02:15 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:13 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Livecasting is part of the excitement of sports, E or otherwise. People who say they 'just don't get' livecasting, just don't get sports. The difference is that if you broadcast a football game online it doesn't effect the players while the same can't be said for a sc2 game.
As much as I understand the concern of ghosting, I've seen very little evidence of that ever happening (since it tends to be pretty damn obvious).
I think what I'm going to do is find someone who can create a buffering system for streams, 5-10 minutes or so, stream to a separate server, have that server run FMLE and then stream out that way.
Multiplay reckon they can do it for next i41, so I'll probably just steal their system.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 06 2010 01:59 HolydaKing wrote:
Well IdrA is coming from BW and in the BW scene it was quite common to cast from replays. For Wc3 players that's absurd, since it hardly ever happened there. Scores spread too fast to cast from replays at such daily tournaments. At TSL for example it worked fine, but i doubt it could go well at for example Go4SC2 cups. I will say that it was only the norm in BW because the TSL decided to put players needs first since we understand how crucial it can be to have a perfectly lag free environment. Before the TSL everything happened live, or as close to live as you could imagine. All it takes is for a major organisation to take a stand on the issue and then others will follow.
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I've been watching a lot of streams recently and the drama that ensues is pretty ridiculous and I think it disrespects the players quite a bit. You don't need 14 people casting 1 game. You just don't. A lot of times people are asked to leave and casters will refuse or argue or try to stay, which I think is pretty BM.
If a caster is required or given access via tournament rules that's different, but having 14 people in there is just ridiculous and never needed. Rules need to be very specific and 50 people shouldn't be allowed in there observing in the first place. Allowing random observers who aren't casting is also pretty stupid (if lag is a concern).
I think the real problem is that there are what, 5 or 6 groups of English casters? And they're always trying to cast at the same times and the same games, and it needs to stop. Some of these people need to just go away.
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Allowing that many spectators in a game is stupid and unprofessional. I don't think anyone cares what their rules say.
It's fine to have a few people spectating as long as it does not affect game play.
On September 06 2010 02:09 c0rn1 wrote:
Imagine a football (soccer for the US) WC with a cast of replays? or an NHL stanley cup final without livecast?
Imagine a football game where you have 20 people not playing on any team running around on the field because its much more fun to observe the game that way.
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On September 06 2010 02:22 fiskrens wrote:
Allowing that many casters in a game is stupid and unprofessional. I don't think anyone cares what their rules say.
They should, because they're the ones doing the payout and organising the tournament.
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On September 06 2010 00:51 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 00:44 HolydaKing wrote:From what i remember he didn't let TaKe join (or did he just start the game without him?) and after that he said the following stuff to BigT: http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/2017/morrowfail.jpgThat being said, there's probably more about it! Edit: Apparently he just started the game even though he knew Take (ESL TV) wanted to join! For some reason Morrow is one of the players always talking to BigT, who no doubt given this conversation talked him into starting the game with the aim of getting more people onto BigT's stream Pretty much everything bad in the world can be traced back to BigT
I am not a fan of BigT either, but in this case he had absolutely nothing to do with it.
He even made a joke in that exact moment that trolls would find a way of blaming it on him.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 06 2010 02:16 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:13 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Livecasting is part of the excitement of sports, E or otherwise. People who say they 'just don't get' livecasting, just don't get sports. There's a reason ESPN/ABC/TNT delay, cut and edit the coach's comments when they give them microphones during the game. This is essentially the same. I understand the excitement of livecasting but because Blizzard didn't implement any way to delay like HLTV has, the best option for the players/fans is live casted replays as soon as the game finishes. Very very true. As a observer, as long as you don't know the results the game is basically live and the majority of the excitement is carried over.
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If there is lag noone should be in the game but the players. That should be common sense to most tournament admins, and if this event is casted live then that's something to organisers need to plan ahead for.
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On September 06 2010 02:22 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:22 fiskrens wrote:
Allowing that many casters in a game is stupid and unprofessional. I don't think anyone cares what their rules say.
They should, because they're the ones doing the payout and organising the tournament.
But thats like saying "Since you are in our tournament we are allowed to slap you in the face whenever we want to".
I get what you mean but really is there a point in having so many people that its slowing down the game? You'll probably even lose viewers that way.
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Why not just have 1 streamer and everyone else casts from that? Doesn't sound hard to set up..
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If anyone watch that game with dimaga vs morrow i dont see morrow did wrong dimaga literally lost because of spectator lag that was completely wrong becuase morrow was cmplaing about lag in game 1 and the admins did nothing about it
and bigt isnt a bad guy and from what i saw he didnt talk him into started he just talked to him like anyone else would
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Better yet, Blizzard should add a live-replay streaming feature to Battle.net. Stream the replay file as the game progresses, allowing anyone to watch the game in real time. Blizzard could easily put a 5 minute delay on it to prevent cheating (which would also help with buffering problems).
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On September 06 2010 02:26 Yaotzin wrote:
Why not just have 1 streamer and everyone else casts from that? Doesn't sound hard to set up..
I already hear the complaints: "why does he miss X and Y? why doesnt he watch at Z? streamer FOO should watch the game, not this one!"
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It makes no sense to cast games lives unless you're all on a LAN network. Otherwise, only cast replays or the players suffer -> fans don't get to see the full potential of their favourite gamers.
It's pretty absurd that nobody has figured this out already. Like, unless it's GSL and the company wants the cameras filming the players as they play then there's no reason to cast games live. Good on MorroW to stick it to them.
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Very simple solution to all this drama.
For online event: cast the replays! cast the fucking replays, for goodness sake. The cons are so much less than the pros.
For "offline" events (in which players actually play on stage): Complain to Blizzard about lack of LAN. Well that's not really a solution, but there is no good one. Only have 1-2 observers I guess.
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I don't really get what all the arguing is about, the solutions are clear and there's only two of them that I can imagine:
1. You stop live casting altogether, it makes it easier for the organisers to referee at the time and obviously solves any external lag issues.
2. You have a set of predefined casters, with as minimal amount of them as possible and certainly no more than one caster per language, defined before the tournament starts. You can select the commentators in a variety of fashions to allow the plethora of casters to get their chance in the spotlight, from voting to rotation to a mix of the two. You can even weigh in important factors like who will provide the best quality (that would include best lack of lag). None of these options are remotely organisation heavy short of setting up a thread to register as a commentator and a poll for the poll based one.
The idea that an organisation the size of the ESL doesn't abhor itself for the lack of professionalism is the thing that irks me personally, have some pride and strive for the level of quality that places with significantly smaller budgets like Team Liquid or in the fighting games community, Team Spooky.
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My take on this: 14?!?! observers, thats just horrible by any admin.
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just take a look again at the hdhtournament-thread. they casted replays and everyone was complaining that they didnt cast live... .
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On September 06 2010 02:25 fiskrens wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:22 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 02:22 fiskrens wrote:
Allowing that many casters in a game is stupid and unprofessional. I don't think anyone cares what their rules say.
They should, because they're the ones doing the payout and organising the tournament. But thats like saying "Since you are in our tournament we are allowed to slap you in the face whenever we want to".
And they are, but if they continue treating players like this soon no good players will want to participate. It's not like there's no alternative tournaments for the likes of Morrow. Morrow may want to participate in ESL tournaments, but he can do without ESL if they treat him like crap.
As an aside I wonder why Blizzard has implemented battle.net2 in such a way that observers are able to lag players at all. If an observer isn't able to keep up with the game, the server should ignore him until he is. The server shouldn't halt the game for an observer. It would be so easy to implement the game in such a way that all game info is send via a one-way connection to a proxy-server that handles the observers. In that way observers cannot in any way lag the game and problems with a lot of observers will only be able to lag the proxy-server, and therefore only lag other observers. Blizzard has a lot of technical talent, and I can hardly believe they haven't thought of all the technical solutions.
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On September 06 2010 02:25 fiskrens wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:22 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 02:22 fiskrens wrote:
Allowing that many casters in a game is stupid and unprofessional. I don't think anyone cares what their rules say.
They should, because they're the ones doing the payout and organising the tournament. But thats like saying "Since you are in our tournament we are allowed to slap you in the face whenever we want to".
They are. And players have the right not to agree to that retarded rule by not entering. It's not as if it's some surprise.
Nobody is saying ESL wasn't at fault allowing so many streamers in on a game, but Morrow was at fault for even saying no to ESL's official streamer, disallowing ESL from broadcasting their own tournament.
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This may sound really silly, but I think players need to start a union to prevent themselves from being taken advantage of by the tournament organizers.
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esl failed at this.
On September 06 2010 02:34 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Nobody is saying ESL wasn't at fault allowing so many streamers in on a game, but Morrow was at fault for even saying no to ESL's official streamer, disallowing ESL from broadcasting their own tournament.
he didnt disallow esl from broadcasting.
ESL¦TaKe was casting some other game while morrow was playing his games and disallowed the other non-esl streamers to cast
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What everyone seems to be ignoring is that yes... 14 casters is retarded. More than 1 caster is retarded and rude, yes. Casting from replays should be fine, yes.
But morrow(and idra's) reaction was to break the rules and not allow ANY casters in their game... which majorly shows a false sense of entitlement. The tournament isn't just for them.
If they want to address that there are too many people in their games that is not the way to go about it...
If they want to be treated like professionals then they should act like professionals, sometimes you have to suck it up and show respect to people even though you don't think they deserve it - simply because you are working with them.
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Yeah, if games are being live-casted, I don't see what is stopping players from cheating by having one of their friends message them in game about what the other player is doing...
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On September 06 2010 02:32 Usul wrote:
just take a look again at the hdhtournament-thread. they casted replays and everyone was complaining that they didnt cast live... .
Of course they were and I might add that casting replays can also affect the caster, casting live gives you more adrenaline which sharpens your mind. That's going to vary from caster to caster but still, it is a factor.
Yeah, if games are being live-casted, I don't see what is stopping players from cheating by having one of their friends message them in game about what the other player is doing...
The fact that it's fucking obvious if that's happening because the player is tech-switching and countering things they can't even see. Even the merest suspicion of that tars a player's reputation.
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If you take away live casting then these tournaments won't exist. As other people have said they just need to have a certain amount of predetermined casters.
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On September 06 2010 02:09 c0rn1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:59 HolydaKing wrote:
Well IdrA is coming from BW and in the BW scene it was quite common to cast from replays. For Wc3 players that's absurd, since it hardly ever happened there. Scores spread too fast to cast from replays at such daily tournaments. At TSL for example it worked fine, but i doubt it could go well at for example Go4SC2 cups. What is so hard to have 1-2 dedicated ESL streamer join the game, stream it in HQ without casting and the casters can connect to it? c0rn1
This is a good idea. Honestly, there's no reason for casters to be actually IN the game. Have a dedicated observer and external casters. I completely agree with Morrow's decision, even if it's not necessarily well mannered and he was arrogant about it. Players should NEVER have to suffer because of casters, they should be two separate entities that don't affect one another.
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Its kinda a weird situation.
On one hand is complelty retarded to have a wooping 14 casters in 1 game.
On the other hand why randomly start a game? He could have refused to play with more than 1 obs.
Personaly if during a game it lagged so much it would turn the game unplayable i would just pause the game and tell the obs to gtfo.
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imho make a rule that only one official caster is obligatory, all the others can be kicked out by the players if they experience lag.
14 casters/spectators is ridiculous and unnecessary.
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On September 06 2010 02:38 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:09 c0rn1 wrote:On September 06 2010 01:59 HolydaKing wrote:
Well IdrA is coming from BW and in the BW scene it was quite common to cast from replays. For Wc3 players that's absurd, since it hardly ever happened there. Scores spread too fast to cast from replays at such daily tournaments. At TSL for example it worked fine, but i doubt it could go well at for example Go4SC2 cups. What is so hard to have 1-2 dedicated ESL streamer join the game, stream it in HQ without casting and the casters can connect to it? c0rn1 This is a good idea. Honestly, there's no reason for casters to be actually IN the game. Have a dedicated observer and external casters. I completely agree with Morrow's decision, even if it's not necessarily well mannered and he was arrogant about it. Players should NEVER have to suffer because of casters, they should be two separate entities that don't affect one another.
1) Casting without direct control of the camera is a pain in the ass
2) Streaming someone elses video and casting over it can be a pain in the ass
3) Any issues what-so-ever with the observers stream will have a knock-on effect on every other stream
Point 1 is the biggest issue though, try it sometime, it sucks.
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If you lag a streamed tournament, this just shows you have no professional idea of how to rn a streamed game, its your fault a player for not liking the lag is not allowing a single caster in.
The only "professional" thing they have done was ban him for breaking the rules because they ignored him.
Crappy casted/streamed games like this make not only players want to stop joining these things, but also lose viewers.
ESL L2Organize your shit.
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On September 06 2010 02:36 TotalBiscuit wrote:
The fact that it's fucking obvious if that's happening because the player is tech-switching and countering things they can't even see. Even the merest suspicion of that tars a player's reputation.
Eh, where money is involved....people don't see such things because they don't want to (see the corruption in cricket atm). Even if it isn't a problem now it would be a good idea to pre-emptively resolve it.
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Hopefully IdrA and MorroW boycott ESL.
These organizations need to realize, without the pro players, your league is NOTHING. With the amount of competition out there today for prize money and bigger tournaments, I don't see why these organizations can't realize this.
I would have done the same in MorroW's shoes and wouldn't be a bit sorry about it.
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On September 06 2010 02:40 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:38 Floophead_III wrote:On September 06 2010 02:09 c0rn1 wrote:On September 06 2010 01:59 HolydaKing wrote:
Well IdrA is coming from BW and in the BW scene it was quite common to cast from replays. For Wc3 players that's absurd, since it hardly ever happened there. Scores spread too fast to cast from replays at such daily tournaments. At TSL for example it worked fine, but i doubt it could go well at for example Go4SC2 cups. What is so hard to have 1-2 dedicated ESL streamer join the game, stream it in HQ without casting and the casters can connect to it? c0rn1 This is a good idea. Honestly, there's no reason for casters to be actually IN the game. Have a dedicated observer and external casters. I completely agree with Morrow's decision, even if it's not necessarily well mannered and he was arrogant about it. Players should NEVER have to suffer because of casters, they should be two separate entities that don't affect one another. 1) Casting without direct control of the camera is a pain in the ass Point 1 is the biggest issue though, try it sometime, it sucks.
Assuming they're good, it is actually the best way to do it. Koreans in SC:BW have been having a non-caster observe for the camera for years because they can focus purely on the game instead of having to cast. That makes them less prone to missing action or things on the mini-map.
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On September 06 2010 02:40 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:38 Floophead_III wrote:On September 06 2010 02:09 c0rn1 wrote:On September 06 2010 01:59 HolydaKing wrote:
Well IdrA is coming from BW and in the BW scene it was quite common to cast from replays. For Wc3 players that's absurd, since it hardly ever happened there. Scores spread too fast to cast from replays at such daily tournaments. At TSL for example it worked fine, but i doubt it could go well at for example Go4SC2 cups. What is so hard to have 1-2 dedicated ESL streamer join the game, stream it in HQ without casting and the casters can connect to it? c0rn1 This is a good idea. Honestly, there's no reason for casters to be actually IN the game. Have a dedicated observer and external casters. I completely agree with Morrow's decision, even if it's not necessarily well mannered and he was arrogant about it. Players should NEVER have to suffer because of casters, they should be two separate entities that don't affect one another. 1) Casting without direct control of the camera is a pain in the ass 2) Streaming someone elses video and casting over it can be a pain in the ass 3) Any issues what-so-ever with the observers stream will have a knock-on effect on every other stream Point 1 is the biggest issue though, try it sometime, it sucks.
1) Trying to play with 14 laggers is a pain in the ass.
2) Constant interruption and delay while playing is a pain in the ass.
3) Without the player playing, there is no tournament. So I'd rather have 1 caster and a tournament than 14 casters and no tournament.
The players are more important than the multitude of shitty casters fucking up their game. Nobody needs 14 casters.
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On September 06 2010 02:36 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +Yeah, if games are being live-casted, I don't see what is stopping players from cheating by having one of their friends message them in game about what the other player is doing... The fact that it's fucking obvious if that's happening because the player is tech-switching and countering things they can't even see. Even the merest suspicion of that tars a player's reputation.
Fact of the matter is that if there is a lot of money on the line, some people are still probably going to do it.
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On September 06 2010 02:42 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:36 TotalBiscuit wrote:
The fact that it's fucking obvious if that's happening because the player is tech-switching and countering things they can't even see. Even the merest suspicion of that tars a player's reputation. Eh, where money is involved....people don't see such things because they don't want to (see the corruption in cricket atm). Even if it isn't a problem now it would be a good idea to pre-emptively resolve it.
Sure, it would be, which is why a buffered server would do the trick. Thing is I don't see anyone actually going out of their way to solve the problem, it's been known about for months and nobody has come up with a solution, just a lot of QQ over the fact that the issue exists.
1) Trying to play with 14 laggers is a pain in the ass.
2) Constant interruption and delay while playing is a pain in the ass.
3) Without the player playing, there is no tournament. So I'd rather have 1 caster and a tournament than 14 casters and no tournament.
The players are more important than the multitude of shitty casters fucking up their game. Nobody needs 14 casters.
We get the idea, 14 casters was ridiculous, if that was really the number. Nobody is disputing that. Fact is that Morrow banned everyone, including ESL's official streamer, which means ESL is not fulfilling their sponsorship obligations, which means the sponsors themselves aren't getting their money's worth, which means the money can very easily go bye-bye.
Accept that the fault is on both sides and do me a favour and don't use every possible opportunity to lay into 'shitty casters'. Caster bashing is getting very old, particularly from the people who don't seem to realise that casters are the reason money is getting injected into the scene in any meaningful manner.
One last thing I might add, spectators will watch anything. I had 27,000 unique viewers over the course of 10 hours, casting games that ranged from bronze level to low diamond, WHILE THE MLG WAS STREAMING AT THE SAME TIME. The players are not as important as the fanbois make them out to be. You can cast literally anything, as long as you make it entertaining and people will still watch. Instead of the needless animosity, much of which I might add is coming from community members that don't actually contribute to ESPORTS in any way beyond posting on a forum, some cooperation and real communication between casters, players, sponsors and tournament organisers is required, because if you take any one of those away from the equation, ESPORTS doesn't work.
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On September 06 2010 02:34 travis wrote:
If they want to address that there are too many people in their games that is not the way to go about it...
What is then? I see three options:
1) Don't play in ESL tournaments
2) Just continue letting the ESL make your games laggy.
3) Break the rules, and perhaps spark a discussion that forces a change in policies.
In other tournaments there is a fourth, optimal option:
4) Inform the tournament organizers of the problem and let them sort it out.
However ESL have proven that they will not help resolve the problem (at least no prior to this incident).
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Lol 14 casters, what a load of bull. Either have one caster or none. I understand some casters are better than others, but when a caster's lag affects the game, they gotta leave. If anything, they should be banning casters who lag _and_ then refuse to leave.
Most caster's are a dime a dozen - there's obviously a select few that are above that. But if you aren't a premiere caster, I don't understand why they are involved at all.
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Morrow playing Zotac cup so it's no problem for him :D
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Unless all players are gathered at the same place for an event, then I think the cast should be from replays players upload after the games. A lot of you are fans of players and think, "oh no this guy would never cheat," but we see where that got us in the TSL 2 ladder process. Some people are just scumbags who'll cheat in the worst way when money is on the line, and without any sort of oversight in live streams cheating is almost inevitable.
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On September 06 2010 00:59 apm66 wrote:
Sounds like MorroW has a really big ego now!
MorroW:
"I told them that I regret it"
"but I don't"
"xD"
what does that have to do with ego? Anyone could say that, this discussion is really really dumb.
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On September 06 2010 02:44 rasnj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:34 travis wrote:
If they want to address that there are too many people in their games that is not the way to go about it... What is then? I see three options: 1) Don't play in ESL tournaments 2) Just continue letting the ESL make your games laggy. 3) Break the rules, and perhaps spark a discussion that forces a change in policies. In other tournaments there is a fourth, optimal option: 4) Inform the tournament organizers of the problem and let them sort it out. However ESL have proven that they will not help resolve the problem (at least no prior to this incident).
This.
They are completely unwilling and therefore the players should stand up for what they believe.
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On September 06 2010 02:44 rasnj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:34 travis wrote:
If they want to address that there are too many people in their games that is not the way to go about it... What is then? I see three options: 1) Don't play in ESL tournaments 2) Just continue letting the ESL make your games laggy. 3) Break the rules, and perhaps spark a discussion that forces a change in policies. In other tournaments there is a fourth, optimal option: 4) Inform the tournament organizers of the problem and let them sort it out. However ESL have proven that they will not help resolve the problem (at least no prior to this incident).
umm, how about not starting the next game with no caster without saying anything
it's pretty simple really.. just refuse to play your next game with any more than just the official caster in the game.
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you allow 14 casters in your games and call morrow unprofessional? he obviously should have refused to play until he talked to the management of the tournament and told him the concerns. however, its a 2 week ban and not a big deal at all. its becoming a bigger deal for the tournaments if they keep pseudo banning the top players because the tournaments dont think ahead when creating rules.
just cast replays. release them to registered and approved casters first so they can get off on their ustream account viewing #s because no one else has seen the games yet.
A poker term sums this up nicely: LOLDONKAMENTS
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A rule needs to implemented where only a certain amount of casters can join the game.
It was like this in WC3. The maximum number of overall observers is 10. Casters had priority over everyone else so team mates had to leave the game. It was ridiculous.
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On September 06 2010 02 rasnj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:34 travis wrote:
If they want to address that there are too many people in their games that is not the way to go about it... What is then? I see three options: 1) Don't play in ESL tournaments 2) Just continue letting the ESL make your games laggy. 3) Break the rules, and perhaps spark a discussion that forces a change in policies. In other tournaments there is a fourth, optimal option: 4) Inform the tournament organizers of the problem and let them sort it out. However ESL have proven that they will not help resolve the problem (at least no prior to this incident).
5) Tell everyone except of Take to leave but thats too hard i guess
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14 casters? Are you fucking kidding me? hahaha
of all SC2 tournaments I've seen so far (not many actually), The King of the Beta was the most professional and exciting to watch.
The rest was just meh. Even the GSL I'm not following at all.
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In bw we had observer etiquette and it went something like this:
1. players reign supreme and can tell any obs to get the fuck out at any stage of the game. Obviously in tournaments sometimes observers are necessary but in a ro64 for the love of god just cast the fucking replay instead of ruining the game with lag etc.
2. Obs don't get to talk to players (I've seen that in tournaments lately and it's fucking ridiculous.)
I miss that shit. And if you're running a tournament listen to the players, it's absolutely ridiculous how stubborn ref's or casters refuse to leave the game even when players (idra) calmly states that the lag makes it virtually impossible to play. It's like they're just abusing the power associated with holding a tournament and have forgotten why they're even doing it in the first place.
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why would anyone make a screenshot of a private conversation and presents it to the public?
thats just weak character...
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I am watching the ESL stream right now and they have some moron Henningk streaming with some dumb woman. They both have no clue what the fuck is going on. Very important to have these people watching your game...
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On September 06 2010 02:34 travis wrote:
What everyone seems to be ignoring is that yes... 14 casters is retarded. More than 1 caster is retarded and rude, yes. Casting from replays should be fine, yes.
But morrow(and idra's) reaction was to break the rules and not allow ANY casters in their game... which majorly shows a false sense of entitlement. The tournament isn't just for them.
If they want to address that there are too many people in their games that is not the way to go about it...
If they want to be treated like professionals then they should act like professionals, sometimes you have to suck it up and show respect to people even though you don't think they deserve it - simply because you are working with them.
i allowed bigt to cast so ur not really correct ... i dont like being compared to idra
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On September 06 2010 02:48 Comrade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 00:59 apm66 wrote:
Sounds like MorroW has a really big ego now!
MorroW:
"I told them that I regret it"
"but I don't"
"xD" what does that have to do with ego? Anyone could say that, this discussion is really really dumb.
Agreed.
MorroW wanted to play in the best conditions. Nothing egocentric about that.
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On September 06 2010 02:50 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:44 rasnj wrote:On September 06 2010 02:34 travis wrote:
If they want to address that there are too many people in their games that is not the way to go about it... What is then? I see three options: 1) Don't play in ESL tournaments 2) Just continue letting the ESL make your games laggy. 3) Break the rules, and perhaps spark a discussion that forces a change in policies. In other tournaments there is a fourth, optimal option: 4) Inform the tournament organizers of the problem and let them sort it out. However ESL have proven that they will not help resolve the problem (at least no prior to this incident). umm, how about not starting the next game with no caster without saying anything it's pretty simple really.. just refuse to play your next game with any more than just the official caster in the game.
I agree... why not just kick out seven or even 13 of the other casters and just let the official one in... I don't get why you would start with ZERO casters. Just refuse to start and be like dude just one caster that's it. MorroW even admitted that he was wrong to have gotten angry even if the situation was frustrating.
Enjoy your ban!!!
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Wait wait, I may have read everything incorrectly but:
ESL wanted 14 fucking casters to be able to watch, while the game was lagging because of it? How many casters do you need, honestly? One, maybe two?
fourteen?
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On September 06 2010 02:55 Topsecret wrote:
I am watching the ESL stream right now and they have some moron Henningk streaming with some dumb woman. They both have no clue what the fuck is going on. Very important to have these people watching your game...
But they have 1336 viewers that is the most important thing.
Totalbiscuit seems be only person talking sense here tbh
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Did any of the people who say "well deserved ban" watch the Morrow vs Dimaga series?
The lag was such a joke to the point there should of been a regame, but nooo.... no one gives a damn cause getting the stream out it top priority.
Morrow's reaction is definitely extreme however the "15 obs steamers MUST JOIN" situation is ridiculous also.
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On September 06 2010 02:57 Pezo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:55 Topsecret wrote:
I am watching the ESL stream right now and they have some moron Henningk streaming with some dumb woman. They both have no clue what the fuck is going on. Very important to have these people watching your game... But they have 1336 viewers that is the most important thing. Totalbiscuit seems be only person talking sense here tbh
Am I right in saying that? I am totally disgusted right now listening to this garbage...
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On September 06 2010 02:56 AppleTart wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:50 travis wrote:On September 06 2010 02:44 rasnj wrote:On September 06 2010 02:34 travis wrote:
If they want to address that there are too many people in their games that is not the way to go about it... What is then? I see three options: 1) Don't play in ESL tournaments 2) Just continue letting the ESL make your games laggy. 3) Break the rules, and perhaps spark a discussion that forces a change in policies. In other tournaments there is a fourth, optimal option: 4) Inform the tournament organizers of the problem and let them sort it out. However ESL have proven that they will not help resolve the problem (at least no prior to this incident). umm, how about not starting the next game with no caster without saying anything it's pretty simple really.. just refuse to play your next game with any more than just the official caster in the game. I agree... why not just kick out seven or even 13 of the other casters and just let the official one in... I don't get why you would start with ZERO casters. Just refuse to start and be like dude just one caster that's it. MorroW even admitted that he was wrong to have gotten angry even if the situation was frustrating. Enjoy your ban!!!
i wanted to make a deal with them to only use the big casters, esl, ggnet bigt and the ones with most viewers, to be like 7 casters instead of 14, but then they basically just ignored that completely. this was me vs dimaga btw
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On September 06 2010 02:58 Topsecret wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:57 Pezo wrote:On September 06 2010 02:55 Topsecret wrote:
I am watching the ESL stream right now and they have some moron Henningk streaming with some dumb woman. They both have no clue what the fuck is going on. Very important to have these people watching your game... But they have 1336 viewers that is the most important thing. Totalbiscuit seems be only person talking sense here tbh Am I right in saying that? I am totally disgusted right now listening to this garbage...
Then don't listen to it.
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why 14 casters? Ego (viewership)? Fame ("I get to cast this and you dont!")? Popularity contest?
2 streamers are enough. Figure it out among yourselves before the match starts so immature casters don't just delay the game for 1/2 an hour in th lobby who goes and who stays.
I hope the casters will learn to work together before the next tournament.
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On September 06 2010 02:58 Topsecret wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:57 Pezo wrote:On September 06 2010 02:55 Topsecret wrote:
I am watching the ESL stream right now and they have some moron Henningk streaming with some dumb woman. They both have no clue what the fuck is going on. Very important to have these people watching your game... But they have 1336 viewers that is the most important thing. Totalbiscuit seems be only person talking sense here tbh Am I right in saying that? I am totally disgusted right now listening to this garbage...
Lol there casting isn't necessarily the best but its down to personal opinion. The most important thing is people are watching it. So it doesn't really matter what you think of the casting.
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Not even worth your time to reply Morrow. Most of these guys are clinically retarded anyways...
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On September 06 2010 02 Valentine wrote:
Wait wait, I may have read everything incorrectly but:
ESL wanted 14 fucking casters to be able to watch, while the game was lagging because of it? How many casters do you need, honestly? One, maybe two?
fourteen?
Thats just bullshit there are no 14 ESL casters.
Its just Take and what happens to the rest of them is up to Morrow.
Got it now ?
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IMO the only way to stop 1) lag and 2) cheating when players are playing from home is to cast replays. And the loss of excitement from live is worth it for me to ensure fair and quality games.
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On September 06 2010 02:59 MorroW wrote:
i wanted to make a deal with them to only use the big casters, esl, ggnet bigt and the ones with most viewers, to be like 7 casters instead of 14, but then they basically just ignored that completely. this was me vs dimaga btw
Even 7 casters is excessive let's be honest, Bnet is awful and everyone knows it. Whatever the case, if ESL were not willing to listen to reason in that regard, that shows a blatant disconnect between players and tournament organisers, not to mention the unrealistic delusions of those 14 casters that somehow believed their presence, while saturating their upstreams with data, would not somehow affect the reliability of the match.
I might sound like a happy-clappy bleedingheart hear but this shit isn't going to work unless everyone involved actually talks to each other and cooperates.
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On September 06 2010 02:59 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:56 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 02:50 travis wrote:On September 06 2010 02:44 rasnj wrote:On September 06 2010 02:34 travis wrote:
If they want to address that there are too many people in their games that is not the way to go about it... What is then? I see three options: 1) Don't play in ESL tournaments 2) Just continue letting the ESL make your games laggy. 3) Break the rules, and perhaps spark a discussion that forces a change in policies. In other tournaments there is a fourth, optimal option: 4) Inform the tournament organizers of the problem and let them sort it out. However ESL have proven that they will not help resolve the problem (at least no prior to this incident). umm, how about not starting the next game with no caster without saying anything it's pretty simple really.. just refuse to play your next game with any more than just the official caster in the game. I agree... why not just kick out seven or even 13 of the other casters and just let the official one in... I don't get why you would start with ZERO casters. Just refuse to start and be like dude just one caster that's it. MorroW even admitted that he was wrong to have gotten angry even if the situation was frustrating. Enjoy your ban!!! i wanted to make a deal with them to only use the big casters, esl, ggnet bigt and the ones with most viewers, to be like 7 casters instead of 14, but then they basically just ignored that completely. this was me vs dimaga btw
ESL's failure to cooperate results in you being banned.
That's retarded.
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On September 06 2010 03:00 Pezo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:58 Topsecret wrote:On September 06 2010 02:57 Pezo wrote:On September 06 2010 02:55 Topsecret wrote:
I am watching the ESL stream right now and they have some moron Henningk streaming with some dumb woman. They both have no clue what the fuck is going on. Very important to have these people watching your game... But they have 1336 viewers that is the most important thing. Totalbiscuit seems be only person talking sense here tbh Am I right in saying that? I am totally disgusted right now listening to this garbage... Lol there casting isn't necessarily the best but its down to personal opinion. The most important thing is people are watching it. So it doesn't really matter what you think of the casting.
Actually, what matters 10x more is the people watching ESL's actual stream and actual subscribers to their premium service. People who don't visit their site or support them but merely enjoy their product are largely irrelevant to the running of these tournaments.
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On September 06 2010 02:50 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:44 rasnj wrote:On September 06 2010 02:34 travis wrote:
If they want to address that there are too many people in their games that is not the way to go about it... What is then? I see three options: 1) Don't play in ESL tournaments 2) Just continue letting the ESL make your games laggy. 3) Break the rules, and perhaps spark a discussion that forces a change in policies. In other tournaments there is a fourth, optimal option: 4) Inform the tournament organizers of the problem and let them sort it out. However ESL have proven that they will not help resolve the problem (at least no prior to this incident). umm, how about not starting the next game with no caster without saying anything it's pretty simple really.. just refuse to play your next game with any more than just the official caster in the game.
On September 06 2010 02:53 DorN wrote:
5) Tell everyone except of Take to leave but thats too hard i guess
Morrow tried that approach last Wednesday and it didn't work. He asked people to leave because of lag and NO ONE responded or left. No ESL admin took any action whatsoever. He held up the game for about 10-15 min before seeing it was pointless and just played.
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Sigh this free for all casting shit needs to end. Stop having 400 commentators that are idiots and laggy just to get an extra 10 viewers.
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On September 06 2010 03:00 Pezo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:58 Topsecret wrote:On September 06 2010 02:57 Pezo wrote:On September 06 2010 02:55 Topsecret wrote:
I am watching the ESL stream right now and they have some moron Henningk streaming with some dumb woman. They both have no clue what the fuck is going on. Very important to have these people watching your game... But they have 1336 viewers that is the most important thing. Totalbiscuit seems be only person talking sense here tbh Am I right in saying that? I am totally disgusted right now listening to this garbage... Lol there casting isn't necessarily the best but its down to personal opinion. The most important thing is people are watching it. So it doesn't really matter what you think of the casting.
Just makes me laugh thinking that people were saying HDH did not have a good cast for MLG. The American casters are obviously leagues above the Euro ones.
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On September 06 2010 03:00 Hikari wrote:
why 14 casters? Ego (viewership)? Fame ("I get to cast this and you dont!")? Popularity contest?
2 streamers are enough. Figure it out among yourselves before the match starts so immature casters don't just delay the game for 1/2 an hour in th lobby who goes and who stays.
I hope the casters will learn to work together before the next tournament.
If you've ever watched them fight over staying in a match you'd know that will never happen. It's pretty pathetic to watch, I feel bad for the players. Casting is given priority over the game itself at this point, which is completely ridiculous.
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On September 06 2010 03:03 sircuddles wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:00 Hikari wrote:
why 14 casters? Ego (viewership)? Fame ("I get to cast this and you dont!")? Popularity contest?
2 streamers are enough. Figure it out among yourselves before the match starts so immature casters don't just delay the game for 1/2 an hour in th lobby who goes and who stays.
I hope the casters will learn to work together before the next tournament. If you've ever watched them fight over staying in a match you'd know that will never happen. It's pretty pathetic to watch, I feel bad for the players. Casting is given priority over the game itself at this point, which is completely ridiculous.
Lol I wonder how much ad money is pulled it with that little static image all casters have to display. This just reeks of "money talks" it's not even funny. Even more so when players have no say on this.
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On September 06 2010 00:46 DonKey_ wrote:
....wow I'm sorry but this shit is retarded; to disallow a gamer from having a choice if he wants obs is retarded.
If this was the semifinals match or even the quarter finals i could see mandatory obs being expected, but not in like ro64 and such.
Edit: is it just me or do all the gamers seem to disallow BigT in their games o_o; IdrA did the same.
Its not just you, BigT is a douche is why.
Thats basically it, i believe this comes from him telling the tourneys host(guy who made the tourney obviously) they he couldnt obs in the finals or something for one of the games.
He's no BiggerT, BigT is just a dickhead
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Wait a minute?? Are the livecasts done with no delay??
Then the players can have the streams in the background and listening to the casters. Thats basicly as same as maphack.
Its better just to cast the replays or delaying the livecast for like few minutes.
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On September 06 2010 03:04 mav451 wrote:
Lol I wonder how much ad money is pulled it with that little static image all casters have to display. This just reeks of "money talks" it's not even funny. Even more so when players have no say on this.
Welcome to the only way ESPORTS is going to get anywhere. Yes, money talks. You can't be a professional Starcraft player if nobody is willing to pay you. You don't thinks sports teams just conjure their money out of thin air, do you?
Its better just to cast the replays or delaying the livecast for like few minutes.
People have been saying this for months but nobody has actually lifted a finger to create a practical tape-delay solution for people to use. I guess it's easier to complain than actually fix the problem.
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wow, sounds like ESL is ran by a bunch of idiots.
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On September 06 2010 03:06 Mastermind wrote:
wow, sounds like ESL is ran by a bunch of idiots.
True story.
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On September 06 2010 03:02 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:00 Pezo wrote:On September 06 2010 02:58 Topsecret wrote:On September 06 2010 02:57 Pezo wrote:On September 06 2010 02:55 Topsecret wrote:
I am watching the ESL stream right now and they have some moron Henningk streaming with some dumb woman. They both have no clue what the fuck is going on. Very important to have these people watching your game... But they have 1336 viewers that is the most important thing. Totalbiscuit seems be only person talking sense here tbh Am I right in saying that? I am totally disgusted right now listening to this garbage... Lol there casting isn't necessarily the best but its down to personal opinion. The most important thing is people are watching it. So it doesn't really matter what you think of the casting. Actually, what matters 10x more is the people watching ESL's actual stream and actual subscribers to their premium service. People who don't visit their site or support them but merely enjoy their product are largely irrelevant to the running of these tournaments.
I agree... i was talking about the quality of the casters tho. As i said, the fact they have that many viewers, shows that people are willing to watch it. Regardless of how good or bad people think they are.
Plus im pretty sure the Official ESl stream is done by Take and is in German.. So a lot of people can't watch it.
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On September 06 2010 03 SkelA wrote:
Wait a minute?? Are the livecasts done with no delay??
No they are not
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On September 06 2010 03:04 mav451 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:03 sircuddles wrote:On September 06 2010 03:00 Hikari wrote:
why 14 casters? Ego (viewership)? Fame ("I get to cast this and you dont!")? Popularity contest?
2 streamers are enough. Figure it out among yourselves before the match starts so immature casters don't just delay the game for 1/2 an hour in th lobby who goes and who stays.
I hope the casters will learn to work together before the next tournament. If you've ever watched them fight over staying in a match you'd know that will never happen. It's pretty pathetic to watch, I feel bad for the players. Casting is given priority over the game itself at this point, which is completely ridiculous. Lol I wonder how much ad money is pulled it with that little static image all casters have to display. This just reeks of "money talks" it's not even funny. Even more so when players have no say on this.
Then they don't have to play. If that's how they make money to eat and pay rent then they have to play by the rules, its not their money. Sure there may be some issues, but rules are rules and viewership is extremely important in any sport.
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I'm aware of that, but there is a disconnect when they are pushing 14 casters, again, for money. Why isn't there a compromise in terms of ad revenue and lag during a game? That's what I mean by money talks.
Lag vs. ad revenue? In this case, they chose ad revenue.
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On September 06 2010 03:07 DorN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03 SkelA wrote:
Wait a minute?? Are the livecasts done with no delay??
No they are not
This is not entirely accurate. There is some delay, but nowhere near enough. I was able to generate 90 seconds of delay during the i40 stream using a huge data-rate window on the VP6 encoder, but I've not seen anyone able to top that yet. An external solution is required, whether it be a local buffer or a third-party server capable of buffering the video for several minutes before rebroadcasting it to Ustream.
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On September 06 2010 03:08 mav451 wrote:
I'm aware of that, but there is a disconnect when they are pushing 14 casters, again, for money. Why isn't there a compromise in terms of ad revenue and lag during a game? That's what I mean by money talks.
Lag vs. ad revenue? In this case, they chose ad revenue.
They made the money, the players got paid, and we watched right?
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On September 06 2010 02:44 TotalBiscuit wrote:
One last thing I might add, spectators will watch anything. I had 27,000 unique viewers over the course of 10 hours, casting games that ranged from bronze level to low diamond, WHILE THE MLG WAS STREAMING AT THE SAME TIME. The players are not as important as the fanbois make them out to be. You can cast literally anything, as long as you make it entertaining and people will still watch.
Then there should be no objection on the streamers' part to leaving Morrow's game and casting their own laddering, right? Or some random replays? Cool. Problem solved!
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On September 06 2010 03:07 AppleTart wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:04 mav451 wrote:On September 06 2010 03:03 sircuddles wrote:On September 06 2010 03:00 Hikari wrote:
why 14 casters? Ego (viewership)? Fame ("I get to cast this and you dont!")? Popularity contest?
2 streamers are enough. Figure it out among yourselves before the match starts so immature casters don't just delay the game for 1/2 an hour in th lobby who goes and who stays.
I hope the casters will learn to work together before the next tournament. If you've ever watched them fight over staying in a match you'd know that will never happen. It's pretty pathetic to watch, I feel bad for the players. Casting is given priority over the game itself at this point, which is completely ridiculous. Lol I wonder how much ad money is pulled it with that little static image all casters have to display. This just reeks of "money talks" it's not even funny. Even more so when players have no say on this. Then they don't have to play. If that's how they make money to eat and pay rent then they have to play by the rules, its not their money. Sure there may be some issues, but rules are rules and viewership is extremely important in any sport.
Sure casters is important, but more casters doesn't necessarily mean more viewers. You get more delays, lag, "bad" casters, low quality casting that makes people not watch and so on. If tournaments want to increase their viewership there is dozen of things you can do that don't involve allowing all and any caster to join a game.
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It is surprising the amount of serious tournaments that are still cast live. This was a problem in beta and will continue to be a legit problem as long as streams are live. Temptation to cheat, even if a little, is extremely high when it's so easy to do. There are streams staring you in the face.
edit #1: I'm looking at the IEM group stages being cast live now. Which leads to a very important tournament with a large prize pool being cast live.
edit #2: Especially when you consider the past of some of the people still left in this tournament. Obviously I'm accusing no one, but cheating has happened in the past. It's easier than ever with this and to think NOBODY is doing it would be delusional.
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On September 06 2010 03:10 Pyrthas wrote:
Then there should be no objection on the streamers' part to leaving Morrow's game and casting their own laddering, right? Or some random replays? Cool. Problem solved!
Not to blow my own trumpet here but not every caster is capable of making a bronze game entertaining. The point I was making is that placing too much importance on the players shows a lack of understand of how the relationship between broadcasters, sponsors, organisers and players works in a professional sports environment. The relationship must also exist if ESPORTS is to go anywhere in western markets. What this thread has demonstrated more than anything is that certain posters are more interested in hurling poorly thought-out vitriol at broadcasters, players and organisers, rather than figuring out what exactly went wrong and how best to ensure that such a disconnect between the three does not happen again in future.
Like I said before, you cannot have ESPORTS without all 4 of those people. You take one away from it and the whole thing falls apart.
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They need to just keep as few observers as possible, theres no need to have 13 people in a game.
But ignoring the ESL tv request to cast his games is really disrespectful, and that screenshot from bigtv is really gonna hurt him
They need to create som rules that there can only be 2-3 streamers in a game, theres no need for more.
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ye saw it..he was worried about lag
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On September 06 2010 03:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:07 DorN wrote:On September 06 2010 03 SkelA wrote:
Wait a minute?? Are the livecasts done with no delay??
No they are not This is not entirely accurate. There is some delay, but nowhere near enough. I was able to generate 90 seconds of delay during the i40 stream using a huge data-rate window on the VP6 encoder, but I've not seen anyone able to top that yet. An external solution is required, whether it be a local buffer or a third-party server capable of buffering the video for several minutes before rebroadcasting it to Ustream.
I think livestream streams are delayed by about 10~ or so seconds naturally(atleast when i stream they are around that
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On September 06 2010 03:13 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:07 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:04 mav451 wrote:On September 06 2010 03:03 sircuddles wrote:On September 06 2010 03:00 Hikari wrote:
why 14 casters? Ego (viewership)? Fame ("I get to cast this and you dont!")? Popularity contest?
2 streamers are enough. Figure it out among yourselves before the match starts so immature casters don't just delay the game for 1/2 an hour in th lobby who goes and who stays.
I hope the casters will learn to work together before the next tournament. If you've ever watched them fight over staying in a match you'd know that will never happen. It's pretty pathetic to watch, I feel bad for the players. Casting is given priority over the game itself at this point, which is completely ridiculous. Lol I wonder how much ad money is pulled it with that little static image all casters have to display. This just reeks of "money talks" it's not even funny. Even more so when players have no say on this. Then they don't have to play. If that's how they make money to eat and pay rent then they have to play by the rules, its not their money. Sure there may be some issues, but rules are rules and viewership is extremely important in any sport. Sure casters is important, but more casters doesn't necessarily mean more viewers. You get more delays, lag, "bad" casters, low quality casting that makes people not watch and so on. If tournaments want to increase their viewership there is dozen of things you can do that don't involve allowing all and any caster to join a game.
Each caster was from a different place. If you include more different places, just that fact that you included them makes you money.
Look if you every want to see SC2 become what BW is in Korea, you have to make these sacrifices until you have a designated SC channel with booths, sponsored teams and all that stuff.
Also as a viewer, if you hate it, don't watch. As a player, if you hate it don't play.
Oh wait... regardless we will still watch and play even if we are posting this stuff.
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Thats stupid, he should get a choice if he wants people in his game, wouldn't you be pissed if you lost a finals game because of lag? Cut the guy a break.
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Should really only be 1 or 2 casters per tournament. Having 14(or whatever it was) people observe a game is asking for trouble. Casters should try and atleast find a different game to cast if it's not semi's or finals.
At the same time players need to realize that a lot of people want to see them play and not be jerks to the casters who provide the games to the hundreds of spectators.
ESL should probably pick 2 or 3 "Official" casters to cast their events rather than just let any random joe with procaster cast.
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On September 06 2010 03:17 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 03:07 DorN wrote:On September 06 2010 03 SkelA wrote:
Wait a minute?? Are the livecasts done with no delay??
No they are not This is not entirely accurate. There is some delay, but nowhere near enough. I was able to generate 90 seconds of delay during the i40 stream using a huge data-rate window on the VP6 encoder, but I've not seen anyone able to top that yet. An external solution is required, whether it be a local buffer or a third-party server capable of buffering the video for several minutes before rebroadcasting it to Ustream. I think livestream streams are delayed by about 10~ or so seconds naturally(atleast when i stream they are around that
Depends entirely on the stream/latency. Streams can be within seconds or by the end of a long cast be minutes behind.
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Should ban 'casters' and observers who lag games not the other way around.
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On September 06 2010 03:18 Pufftrees wrote:
Should ban 'casters' and observers who lag games not the other way around.
Players don't make the tournament money
Look, it's like a fast food restaurant.
The boss is the organizer, the players are the workers, and we are the customers.
Even if they decrease the quality of the food and the working conditions, the workers won't quit because they need the money to survive and the people will keep going because its just fat and greasy food. There will always be new customers, and a player would gladly take their spot if they leave. And people will still watch.
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I agree with the most points, letting 20obs in a game is nuts, but refusing the official esl caster to join isnt better. Remember this was an official esl tournament and there is a rule - streamers are allowed. If you feel bad about obs or streamers, then kick everyone in the game except the official ones and there will be no lag and nobody will blame you for that.
But starting the game without streamers, even if they explain you the rules... well he deserves the ban.
See you in 2 weeks morrow.
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I think Morrow's point is fair, and I don't think he regrets the ban. The point of him starting the game is to disagree with the rules of the ESL, so hopefully they think about what went wrong. This is the second person who has struck against the rules, I think it would be a bad move for ESL if more people come to the same conclusion.
14 spectators is a lot of lag, and will effect the performance on the game. If ESL wants to have a good quality product, part of the need is to make sure the player can perform adequately. Having horrendous lag due to unnecessary streamers takes away the product, even if it expands the watching population by 10%.
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On September 06 2010 03:20 AppleTart wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:18 Pufftrees wrote:
Should ban 'casters' and observers who lag games not the other way around. Players don't make the tournament money
It was more of a joke, but those 10 + observers who aren't casting but just joining for no reason aren't making the tourney money.
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I guess Morrow deserves the ban for breaking the rules (sorry man, that's how it is :p), but ESL should notice now that something isn't going into the right direction here.
However, I blame Blizzard. It's actually fairly simple to implement observers in a way that completely eliminates lag for players. Essentially you just send the observers data and don't care whether they recieve it properly/in time or not. I have no idea why Blizzard didn't implement something like that. Lazy?
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On September 06 2010 03:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:07 DorN wrote:On September 06 2010 03 SkelA wrote:
Wait a minute?? Are the livecasts done with no delay??
No they are not This is not entirely accurate. There is some delay, but nowhere near enough. I was able to generate 90 seconds of delay during the i40 stream using a huge data-rate window on the VP6 encoder, but I've not seen anyone able to top that yet. An external solution is required, whether it be a local buffer or a third-party server capable of buffering the video for several minutes before rebroadcasting it to Ustream.
Raelcun regularly has a 5+ minute delay.
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On September 06 2010 03:20 AppleTart wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:18 Pufftrees wrote:
Should ban 'casters' and observers who lag games not the other way around. Players don't make the tournament money
Again, there are some extreme views in this thread which don't have much basis in reality.
You need broadcasters, players, tournament organisers and sponsors, in order to make money from an ESPORTS tournament. Popular players bring in more views, but in order to get popular players, you need the money to attract them to it, which means you need sponsors. In order to have a good tournament, you need tournament organisers to get the sponsors in the first place and facilitate the tournament and then in order for those sponsors to get their money's worth, they need broadcasters to ensure that they have enough spectators seeing their product. You can't take any one of those away from the equation. Some people will watch a tournament because it's got a lot of money and promotion behind it, that's due to the sponsors. Some will watch due to the organisation that's backing it, who always has an established audience, that's the tournament organiser. Some people will watch it due to the people casting, because they too have established fanbases, that's their broadcasters and last but by no means least, some people will watch because their favourite player is playing.
Do not discount the importance of any of these things, nor try to squabble over who is more important than the other, because they are all necessary.
Raelcun regularly has a 5+ minute delay.
And I assume he has no problem sharing his secret with the community, right?
...right? Because he's certainly not doing that via traditional means and this has been a known problem since the start of beta, which nobody has come forward with a legitimate solution to.
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On September 06 2010 03:23 Pufftrees wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:20 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:18 Pufftrees wrote:
Should ban 'casters' and observers who lag games not the other way around. Players don't make the tournament money It was more of a joke, but those 10 + observers who aren't casting but just joining for no reason aren't making the tourney money.
Actually they do...
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On September 06 2010 03:23 spinesheath wrote:
I guess Morrow deserves the ban for breaking the rules (sorry man, that's how it is :p), but ESL should notice now that something isn't going into the right direction here.
However, I blame Blizzard. It's actually fairly simple to implement observers in a way that completely eliminates lag for players. Essentially you just send the observers data and don't care whether they recieve it properly/in time or not. I have no idea why Blizzard didn't implement something like that. Lazy?
Are you sure it's that simple? Really feels like there's got to be a reason for it being what it is, but then again.. they do make some questionable decisions. It has to be related to how Bnet works though, I mean.. They can't think having obs lag games adds anything to SC2.
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On September 06 2010 03:23 spinesheath wrote:
I guess Morrow deserves the ban for breaking the rules (sorry man, that's how it is :p), but ESL should notice now that something isn't going into the right direction here.
However, I blame Blizzard. It's actually fairly simple to implement observers in a way that completely eliminates lag for players. Essentially you just send the observers data and don't care whether they recieve it properly/in time or not. I have no idea why Blizzard didn't implement something like that. Lazy?
Yeah if Blizz can figure this out, then the pro-caster camp will be able to get their 14+ casters no problem.
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On September 06 2010 03:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:20 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:18 Pufftrees wrote:
Should ban 'casters' and observers who lag games not the other way around. Players don't make the tournament money Again, there are some extreme views in this thread which don't have much basis in reality. You need broadcasters, players, tournament organisers and sponsors, in order to make money from an ESPORTS tournament. Popular players bring in more views, but in order to get popular players, you need the money to attract them to it, which means you need sponsors. In order to have a good tournament, you need tournament organisers to get the sponsors in the first place and facilitate the tournament and then in order for those sponsors to get their money's worth, they need broadcasters to ensure that they have enough spectators seeing their product. You can't take any one of those away from the equation. Some people will watch a tournament because it's got a lot of money and promotion behind it, that's due to the sponsors. Some will watch due to the organisation that's backing it, who always has an established audience, that's the tournament organiser. Some people will watch it due to the people casting, because they too have established fanbases, that's their broadcasters and last but by no means least, some people will watch because their favourite player is playing. Do not discount the importance of any of these things, nor try to squabble over who is more important than the other, because they are all necessary. And I assume he has no problem sharing his secret with other casters, right? ...right?
I promise you ESL will not lose ANY viewers in the weeks that MorroW is banned.
The irony is since MorroW didn't let anyone stream, they lost all viewers
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On September 06 2010 03:26 AppleTart wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 03:20 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:18 Pufftrees wrote:
Should ban 'casters' and observers who lag games not the other way around. Players don't make the tournament money Again, there are some extreme views in this thread which don't have much basis in reality. You need broadcasters, players, tournament organisers and sponsors, in order to make money from an ESPORTS tournament. Popular players bring in more views, but in order to get popular players, you need the money to attract them to it, which means you need sponsors. In order to have a good tournament, you need tournament organisers to get the sponsors in the first place and facilitate the tournament and then in order for those sponsors to get their money's worth, they need broadcasters to ensure that they have enough spectators seeing their product. You can't take any one of those away from the equation. Some people will watch a tournament because it's got a lot of money and promotion behind it, that's due to the sponsors. Some will watch due to the organisation that's backing it, who always has an established audience, that's the tournament organiser. Some people will watch it due to the people casting, because they too have established fanbases, that's their broadcasters and last but by no means least, some people will watch because their favourite player is playing. Do not discount the importance of any of these things, nor try to squabble over who is more important than the other, because they are all necessary. Raelcun regularly has a 5+ minute delay. And I assume he has no problem sharing his secret with other casters, right? ...right? I promise you ESL will not lose ANY viewers in the weeks that MorroW is banned.
Sure they will, MorroW has a fanbase just like any other established player. Some will boycott due to his treatment, others just won't care enough to watch it because he's not playing. They're certainly not gaining any viewers by getting rid of him.
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On September 06 2010 03:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
And I assume he has no problem sharing his secret with the community, right?
...right? Because he's certainly not doing that via traditional means and this has been a known problem since the start of beta, which nobody has come forward with a legitimate solution to.
Frankly we don't know why it happens but it does. But this can be verified 100x over that he has a 5+ minute delay probably 80% of the time.
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Since the same argument is being brought up here constantly: We actually changed our streaming policy since Wednesday's disaster and now only "verified" casters will be allowed in the games in the quarter finals and all the later stages. In the currently running cup we have 2-3 casters and no observers besides one admin in the matches and as far as I can tell there were no lag issues so far.
It is actually in our interest to only have a selected few casters so that we can promote their streams on our website better and have a better run tournament overall. The rule of "anyone is welcome to stream" was introduced in beta when we were eager to have as much exposure as possible. There won't be 14 streamers or whatever ridiculous number is thrown aorund here again in a Go4SC2 match.
Regarding MorroW's ban: Since we didn't announce any ban for MorroW on our website so far please take any info Rakaka or other community websites release with a grain of salt. Yes, one of our admins did talk to MorroW after the cup and we didn't let him play in today's cup but I'm sure we will find a better solution to this issue as well since it's obvious that his behaviour was caused by our organization.
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On September 06 2010 03:27 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:26 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 03:20 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:18 Pufftrees wrote:
Should ban 'casters' and observers who lag games not the other way around. Players don't make the tournament money Again, there are some extreme views in this thread which don't have much basis in reality. You need broadcasters, players, tournament organisers and sponsors, in order to make money from an ESPORTS tournament. Popular players bring in more views, but in order to get popular players, you need the money to attract them to it, which means you need sponsors. In order to have a good tournament, you need tournament organisers to get the sponsors in the first place and facilitate the tournament and then in order for those sponsors to get their money's worth, they need broadcasters to ensure that they have enough spectators seeing their product. You can't take any one of those away from the equation. Some people will watch a tournament because it's got a lot of money and promotion behind it, that's due to the sponsors. Some will watch due to the organisation that's backing it, who always has an established audience, that's the tournament organiser. Some people will watch it due to the people casting, because they too have established fanbases, that's their broadcasters and last but by no means least, some people will watch because their favourite player is playing. Do not discount the importance of any of these things, nor try to squabble over who is more important than the other, because they are all necessary. Raelcun regularly has a 5+ minute delay. And I assume he has no problem sharing his secret with other casters, right? ...right? I promise you ESL will not lose ANY viewers in the weeks that MorroW is banned. Sure they will, MorroW has a fanbase just like any other established player. Some will boycott due to his treatment, others just won't care enough to watch it because he's not playing. They're certainly not gaining any viewers by getting rid of him.
Well at least on TL no one has spoken about boycotting ESL yet. Some trash has been thrown at them but once a big tourney starts rolling again, even the ones complaining will still watch it.
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On September 06 2010 03:27 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
And I assume he has no problem sharing his secret with the community, right?
...right? Because he's certainly not doing that via traditional means and this has been a known problem since the start of beta, which nobody has come forward with a legitimate solution to. Frankly we don't know why it happens but it does. But this can be verified 100x over that he has a 5+ minute delay probably 80% of the time.
What you're suggesting should technically be impossible, because he's not buffering that on his end using FMLE, the data isn't suddenly hanging there in cyberspace for no reason and Ustream certainly isn't buffering that much data. The data has to go somewhere.
I mean, I had 10 minutes delay on the i40 stream at one point but that's only because the Ustream server was crapping out and pausing every couple of seconds, it's wasn't exactly what I'd call an ideal solution.
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To be totally honest, one less terran in go4sc2 is a godblessing.
6 TERRANS and 2 protoss in the quarter finals. Thats 3 TvT and 1 PvP, could this be more boring?
Blizzard needs to patch soon, this is just retarded. Anyone who saw Fuzer vs MoMaN today knows how retarded that matchup is.
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On September 06 2010 03:24 AppleTart wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:23 Pufftrees wrote:On September 06 2010 03:20 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:18 Pufftrees wrote:
Should ban 'casters' and observers who lag games not the other way around. Players don't make the tournament money It was more of a joke, but those 10 + observers who aren't casting but just joining for no reason aren't making the tourney money. Actually they do...
If all 14 observers were all individually streaming and casting then yes I'd agree with you. How do the people who aren't streaming but just hanging in games for no reason other then to watch actually helping?
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So, I guess players like Boxer and Savior never made any money for BW tournaments?
It's just as Totalbiscuit says, you can't just complete ignore one part of the puzzle and expect to solve it anyway, it just doesn't work like that.
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On September 06 2010 03:30 Pufftrees wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:24 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:23 Pufftrees wrote:On September 06 2010 03:20 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:18 Pufftrees wrote:
Should ban 'casters' and observers who lag games not the other way around. Players don't make the tournament money It was more of a joke, but those 10 + observers who aren't casting but just joining for no reason aren't making the tourney money. Actually they do... If all 14 observers were all individually streaming and casting then yes I'd agree with you. How do the people who aren't streaming but just hanging in games for no reason other then to watch actually helping?
Yeap that's why we start the game with zero casters right
So, I guess players like Boxer and Savior never made any money for BW tournaments?
It's just as Totalbiscuit says, you can't just complete ignore one part of the puzzle and expect to solve it anyway, it just doesn't work like that.
They do only when you get that BIG first. When you are small even someone as famous as MorroW won't really affect your viewership. It's sorta like a fast food restaurant firing a worker versus like the CEO of Boeing booting their head development guy. To get that big you need more money.
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On September 06 2010 03:02 rasnj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:50 travis wrote:On September 06 2010 02:44 rasnj wrote:On September 06 2010 02:34 travis wrote:
If they want to address that there are too many people in their games that is not the way to go about it... What is then? I see three options: 1) Don't play in ESL tournaments 2) Just continue letting the ESL make your games laggy. 3) Break the rules, and perhaps spark a discussion that forces a change in policies. In other tournaments there is a fourth, optimal option: 4) Inform the tournament organizers of the problem and let them sort it out. However ESL have proven that they will not help resolve the problem (at least no prior to this incident). umm, how about not starting the next game with no caster without saying anything it's pretty simple really.. just refuse to play your next game with any more than just the official caster in the game. Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 02:53 DorN wrote:
5) Tell everyone except of Take to leave but thats too hard i guess
Morrow tried that approach last Wednesday and it didn't work. He asked people to leave because of lag and NO ONE responded or left. No ESL admin took any action whatsoever. He held up the game for about 10-15 min before seeing it was pointless and just played.
well that's massive bullshit
(errr, i don't mean that you're lying.. i mean that's totally unreasonable by esl and the asshole streamers/obses)
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On September 06 2010 03:30 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:27 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 03:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
And I assume he has no problem sharing his secret with the community, right?
...right? Because he's certainly not doing that via traditional means and this has been a known problem since the start of beta, which nobody has come forward with a legitimate solution to. Frankly we don't know why it happens but it does. But this can be verified 100x over that he has a 5+ minute delay probably 80% of the time. What you're suggesting should technically be impossible, because he's not buffering that on his end using FMLE, the data isn't suddenly hanging there in cyberspace for no reason and Ustream certainly isn't buffering that much data. The data has to go somewhere. I mean, I had 10 minutes delay on the i40 stream at one point but that's only because the Ustream server was crapping out and pausing every couple of seconds, it's wasn't exactly what I'd call an ideal solution.
First, he does not use FLME. Second, it happens. All the time. This is sort of a well known thing to anyone that watches iCCup TV.
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they have 10'000+ viewers, I'm sure they don't care about the 10 ppl that won't watch it because morrow got banned for acting like a child.
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So people lag some guys game, he doesn't like the lag, then he's banned.
ESL seems like a very well run tournament.
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On September 06 2010 03:32 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:30 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 03:27 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 03:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
And I assume he has no problem sharing his secret with the community, right?
...right? Because he's certainly not doing that via traditional means and this has been a known problem since the start of beta, which nobody has come forward with a legitimate solution to. Frankly we don't know why it happens but it does. But this can be verified 100x over that he has a 5+ minute delay probably 80% of the time. What you're suggesting should technically be impossible, because he's not buffering that on his end using FMLE, the data isn't suddenly hanging there in cyberspace for no reason and Ustream certainly isn't buffering that much data. The data has to go somewhere. I mean, I had 10 minutes delay on the i40 stream at one point but that's only because the Ustream server was crapping out and pausing every couple of seconds, it's wasn't exactly what I'd call an ideal solution. First, he does not use FLME. Second, it happens. All the time. This is sort of a well known thing to anyone that watches iCCup TV.
So what exactly does he use? Whatever he's using is apparently allowing a 5-minute local tape-delay buffer which would be something the rest of the community would be extremely interested in learning about.
So people lag some guys game, he doesn't like the lag, then he's banned.
ESL seems like a very well run tournament.
Yes, it was obviously this simple and clearly your comment has merit...
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On September 06 2010 03:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:32 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 03:30 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 03:27 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 03:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
And I assume he has no problem sharing his secret with the community, right?
...right? Because he's certainly not doing that via traditional means and this has been a known problem since the start of beta, which nobody has come forward with a legitimate solution to. Frankly we don't know why it happens but it does. But this can be verified 100x over that he has a 5+ minute delay probably 80% of the time. What you're suggesting should technically be impossible, because he's not buffering that on his end using FMLE, the data isn't suddenly hanging there in cyberspace for no reason and Ustream certainly isn't buffering that much data. The data has to go somewhere. I mean, I had 10 minutes delay on the i40 stream at one point but that's only because the Ustream server was crapping out and pausing every couple of seconds, it's wasn't exactly what I'd call an ideal solution. First, he does not use FLME. Second, it happens. All the time. This is sort of a well known thing to anyone that watches iCCup TV. So what exactly does he use? Whatever he's using is apparently allowing a 5-minute local tape-delay buffer which would be something the rest of the community would be extremely interested in learning about.
Producer Pro.
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On September 06 2010 03:32 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:02 rasnj wrote:On September 06 2010 02:50 travis wrote:On September 06 2010 02:44 rasnj wrote:On September 06 2010 02:34 travis wrote:
If they want to address that there are too many people in their games that is not the way to go about it... What is then? I see three options: 1) Don't play in ESL tournaments 2) Just continue letting the ESL make your games laggy. 3) Break the rules, and perhaps spark a discussion that forces a change in policies. In other tournaments there is a fourth, optimal option: 4) Inform the tournament organizers of the problem and let them sort it out. However ESL have proven that they will not help resolve the problem (at least no prior to this incident). umm, how about not starting the next game with no caster without saying anything it's pretty simple really.. just refuse to play your next game with any more than just the official caster in the game. On September 06 2010 02:53 DorN wrote:
5) Tell everyone except of Take to leave but thats too hard i guess
Morrow tried that approach last Wednesday and it didn't work. He asked people to leave because of lag and NO ONE responded or left. No ESL admin took any action whatsoever. He held up the game for about 10-15 min before seeing it was pointless and just played. well that's massive bullshit (errr, i don't mean that you're lying.. i mean that's totally unreasonable by esl and the asshole streamers)
They were both being silly, MorroW should've realized that the streamers won't leave whether he wants to or not and whining/complaining wouldn't help at the time. He should've just submitted some feedback afterwards, because in the end it is what it is.
At the same time I don't understand how the organizers/admins figured player input wasn't worth a salt. If a player complains about lag it's likely he has a very good reason to. Meh, SC2 is still new. These kind of issues are bound to happen early on before people get stuff figured out.
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On September 06 2010 03:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:32 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 03:30 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 03:27 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 03:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
And I assume he has no problem sharing his secret with the community, right?
...right? Because he's certainly not doing that via traditional means and this has been a known problem since the start of beta, which nobody has come forward with a legitimate solution to. Frankly we don't know why it happens but it does. But this can be verified 100x over that he has a 5+ minute delay probably 80% of the time. What you're suggesting should technically be impossible, because he's not buffering that on his end using FMLE, the data isn't suddenly hanging there in cyberspace for no reason and Ustream certainly isn't buffering that much data. The data has to go somewhere. I mean, I had 10 minutes delay on the i40 stream at one point but that's only because the Ustream server was crapping out and pausing every couple of seconds, it's wasn't exactly what I'd call an ideal solution. First, he does not use FLME. Second, it happens. All the time. This is sort of a well known thing to anyone that watches iCCup TV. So what exactly does he use? Whatever he's using is apparently allowing a 5-minute local tape-delay buffer which would be something the rest of the community would be extremely interested in learning about. Show nested quote +So people lag some guys game, he doesn't like the lag, then he's banned.
ESL seems like a very well run tournament. Yes, it was obviously this simple and clearly your comment has merit...
He already posted that he doesn't know how it happens. Honestly do you even read the posts?
And yes, it honestly is that simple. Morrow got banned because the organizers dont know what they're doing.
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From briefly reading all of this I believe that they should talk to Blizzard in the possibility that they can make special lobby's for this game for high profile events. Especially for these important games, although I can see it from Morrow's side as well. I know that it is not just me but I would rather lose to skill and not the fact that you are having terrible latency issues.
They should just honestly just have one very good quality stream, stream the event. Then all of the casters can just cast off of the stream. This is just a simple fix until some genius over at Blizzard can find a fix for this. This can work, I have seen the quality of some streams and if you put it on full screen it's as if you were playing the game yourself.
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On September 06 2010 03:35 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Producer Pro.
Significant local buffering certainly isn't a documented feature with that program, but if it does do that, it's worth looking into.
He already posted that he doesn't know how it happens. Honestly do you even read the posts?
Do you? Because I asked what he used, not how it did it.
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On September 06 2010 03:31 AppleTart wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:30 Pufftrees wrote:On September 06 2010 03:24 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:23 Pufftrees wrote:On September 06 2010 03:20 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:18 Pufftrees wrote:
Should ban 'casters' and observers who lag games not the other way around. Players don't make the tournament money It was more of a joke, but those 10 + observers who aren't casting but just joining for no reason aren't making the tourney money. Actually they do... If all 14 observers were all individually streaming and casting then yes I'd agree with you. How do the people who aren't streaming but just hanging in games for no reason other then to watch actually helping? Yeap that's why we start the game with zero casters right Show nested quote +
So, I guess players like Boxer and Savior never made any money for BW tournaments?
It's just as Totalbiscuit says, you can't just complete ignore one part of the puzzle and expect to solve it anyway, it just doesn't work like that.
They do only when you get that BIG first. When you are small even someone as famous as MorroW won't really affect your viewership. It's sorta like a fast food restaurant firing a worker versus like the CEO of Boeing booting their head development guy. To get that big you need more money.
Are you trolling at this point? I am saying, you have 14 observers. If 13 are casting then 1 is a waste... are all 14 casting?? If so why??? Just seems extreme, have a few casters tops not 14.
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On September 06 2010 03:37 TotalBiscuit wrote:Significant local buffering certainly isn't a documented feature with that program, but if it does do that, it's worth looking into.
I'm going to repeat myself here. WE DON'T KNOW what happens, but it happens.
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On September 06 2010 03:37 Pufftrees wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:31 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:30 Pufftrees wrote:On September 06 2010 03:24 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:23 Pufftrees wrote:On September 06 2010 03:20 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:18 Pufftrees wrote:
Should ban 'casters' and observers who lag games not the other way around. Players don't make the tournament money It was more of a joke, but those 10 + observers who aren't casting but just joining for no reason aren't making the tourney money. Actually they do... If all 14 observers were all individually streaming and casting then yes I'd agree with you. How do the people who aren't streaming but just hanging in games for no reason other then to watch actually helping? Yeap that's why we start the game with zero casters right
So, I guess players like Boxer and Savior never made any money for BW tournaments?
It's just as Totalbiscuit says, you can't just complete ignore one part of the puzzle and expect to solve it anyway, it just doesn't work like that.
They do only when you get that BIG first. When you are small even someone as famous as MorroW won't really affect your viewership. It's sorta like a fast food restaurant firing a worker versus like the CEO of Boeing booting their head development guy. To get that big you need more money. Are you trolling at this point? I am saying, you have 14 observers. If 13 are casting then 1 is a waste... are all 14 casting?? If so why??? Just seems extreme, have a few casters tops not 14.
Did you even read Shawngoods post? He spoke for the ESL.
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On September 06 2010 03:36 Kurr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 03:32 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 03:30 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 03:27 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 03:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
And I assume he has no problem sharing his secret with the community, right?
...right? Because he's certainly not doing that via traditional means and this has been a known problem since the start of beta, which nobody has come forward with a legitimate solution to. Frankly we don't know why it happens but it does. But this can be verified 100x over that he has a 5+ minute delay probably 80% of the time. What you're suggesting should technically be impossible, because he's not buffering that on his end using FMLE, the data isn't suddenly hanging there in cyberspace for no reason and Ustream certainly isn't buffering that much data. The data has to go somewhere. I mean, I had 10 minutes delay on the i40 stream at one point but that's only because the Ustream server was crapping out and pausing every couple of seconds, it's wasn't exactly what I'd call an ideal solution. First, he does not use FLME. Second, it happens. All the time. This is sort of a well known thing to anyone that watches iCCup TV. So what exactly does he use? Whatever he's using is apparently allowing a 5-minute local tape-delay buffer which would be something the rest of the community would be extremely interested in learning about. So people lag some guys game, he doesn't like the lag, then he's banned.
ESL seems like a very well run tournament. Yes, it was obviously this simple and clearly your comment has merit... He already posted that he doesn't know how it happens. Honestly do you even read the posts? And yes, it honestly is that simple. Morrow got banned because the organizers dont know what they're doing.
MorroW got banned because he broke the rules. If you join a tournament you agree to their rules, whether you like them or not. It wasn't the organizers fault that he broke them. You can't expect the rules to change on a whim, no matter if they're retarded or not.
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On September 06 2010 03:38 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:37 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 03:35 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Producer Pro. Significant local buffering certainly isn't a documented feature with that program, but if it does do that, it's worth looking into. I'm going to repeat myself here. WE DON'T KNOW what happens, but it happens.
You didn't need to, I asked what you used, you told me, end of story.
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On September 06 2010 03:37 Pufftrees wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:31 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:30 Pufftrees wrote:On September 06 2010 03:24 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:23 Pufftrees wrote:On September 06 2010 03:20 AppleTart wrote:On September 06 2010 03:18 Pufftrees wrote:
Should ban 'casters' and observers who lag games not the other way around. Players don't make the tournament money It was more of a joke, but those 10 + observers who aren't casting but just joining for no reason aren't making the tourney money. Actually they do... If all 14 observers were all individually streaming and casting then yes I'd agree with you. How do the people who aren't streaming but just hanging in games for no reason other then to watch actually helping? Yeap that's why we start the game with zero casters right
So, I guess players like Boxer and Savior never made any money for BW tournaments?
It's just as Totalbiscuit says, you can't just complete ignore one part of the puzzle and expect to solve it anyway, it just doesn't work like that.
They do only when you get that BIG first. When you are small even someone as famous as MorroW won't really affect your viewership. It's sorta like a fast food restaurant firing a worker versus like the CEO of Boeing booting their head development guy. To get that big you need more money. Are you trolling at this point? I am saying, you have 14 observers. If 13 are casting then 1 is a waste... are all 14 casting?? If so why??? Just seems extreme, have a few casters tops not 14.
Yet MorroW allowed zero. So no spectator could watch AND no streamers could stream to make money. But he gets to take make money?
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Many games I've watched has 3-4 English casters, where 2 of those are 2 people, leading to 6 people for English casts. 1-2 German, 1-2 French, 1-2 Russian.
It is quite common that the caster and co-caster join the game instead of just one.
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United States22883 Posts
On September 06 2010 03:35 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 03:32 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 03:30 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 03:27 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 03:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
And I assume he has no problem sharing his secret with the community, right?
...right? Because he's certainly not doing that via traditional means and this has been a known problem since the start of beta, which nobody has come forward with a legitimate solution to. Frankly we don't know why it happens but it does. But this can be verified 100x over that he has a 5+ minute delay probably 80% of the time. What you're suggesting should technically be impossible, because he's not buffering that on his end using FMLE, the data isn't suddenly hanging there in cyberspace for no reason and Ustream certainly isn't buffering that much data. The data has to go somewhere. I mean, I had 10 minutes delay on the i40 stream at one point but that's only because the Ustream server was crapping out and pausing every couple of seconds, it's wasn't exactly what I'd call an ideal solution. First, he does not use FLME. Second, it happens. All the time. This is sort of a well known thing to anyone that watches iCCup TV. So what exactly does he use? Whatever he's using is apparently allowing a 5-minute local tape-delay buffer which would be something the rest of the community would be extremely interested in learning about. Producer Pro.
5 minutes isn't enough for SC2/BW.
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Some good things seems to have come out of this,
Power to the players!
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On September 06 2010 03:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:32 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 03:30 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 03:27 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 03:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
And I assume he has no problem sharing his secret with the community, right?
...right? Because he's certainly not doing that via traditional means and this has been a known problem since the start of beta, which nobody has come forward with a legitimate solution to. Frankly we don't know why it happens but it does. But this can be verified 100x over that he has a 5+ minute delay probably 80% of the time. What you're suggesting should technically be impossible, because he's not buffering that on his end using FMLE, the data isn't suddenly hanging there in cyberspace for no reason and Ustream certainly isn't buffering that much data. The data has to go somewhere. I mean, I had 10 minutes delay on the i40 stream at one point but that's only because the Ustream server was crapping out and pausing every couple of seconds, it's wasn't exactly what I'd call an ideal solution. First, he does not use FLME. Second, it happens. All the time. This is sort of a well known thing to anyone that watches iCCup TV. So what exactly does he use? Whatever he's using is apparently allowing a 5-minute local tape-delay buffer which would be something the rest of the community would be extremely interested in learning about. Show nested quote +So people lag some guys game, he doesn't like the lag, then he's banned.
ESL seems like a very well run tournament. Yes, it was obviously this simple and clearly your comment has merit...
Yeah thanks it does. I don't know what else there really is to say, morrow was obviously disliking the lag, and shouldn't have started the game without the casters, but when they ignore him completely, what else should he do? I'd say fuck the casters too my self if they were lagging my game. And then they ban him from the next few tournaments because of this? Wow, what a stupid tournament ran by people that don't know how to run a tournament. Maybe if they listened to their players...... I am no morrow fanboy, hell I don't like sc2, but to ban morrow when they weren't even acknowledging his request (sorry but 14 fucking people are NOT streaming the game) is bullshit.
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Yes, one of our admins did talk to MorroW after the cup and we didn't let him play in today's cup but I'm sure we will find a better solution to this issue as well since it's obvious that his behaviour was caused by our organization.
quite rare for an organization to admit that and take action accordingly. props and respect.
and ultimately, the blame is on blizzard
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On September 06 2010 03:40 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:35 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 03:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 03:32 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 03:30 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 03:27 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 03:24 TotalBiscuit wrote:
And I assume he has no problem sharing his secret with the community, right?
...right? Because he's certainly not doing that via traditional means and this has been a known problem since the start of beta, which nobody has come forward with a legitimate solution to. Frankly we don't know why it happens but it does. But this can be verified 100x over that he has a 5+ minute delay probably 80% of the time. What you're suggesting should technically be impossible, because he's not buffering that on his end using FMLE, the data isn't suddenly hanging there in cyberspace for no reason and Ustream certainly isn't buffering that much data. The data has to go somewhere. I mean, I had 10 minutes delay on the i40 stream at one point but that's only because the Ustream server was crapping out and pausing every couple of seconds, it's wasn't exactly what I'd call an ideal solution. First, he does not use FLME. Second, it happens. All the time. This is sort of a well known thing to anyone that watches iCCup TV. So what exactly does he use? Whatever he's using is apparently allowing a 5-minute local tape-delay buffer which would be something the rest of the community would be extremely interested in learning about. Producer Pro. 5 minutes isn't enough for SC2/BW.
For SCII is more than enough. I can't think of anything that could be relevant 5 minutes later.
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On September 06 2010 03:40 Jibba wrote:
5 minutes isn't enough for SC2/BW.
It's a damn sack better than 20 seconds.
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On September 06 2010 00:58 Hunch wrote:thats not like morrow at all wonder why he did that
You ever played a game in slow motion? It sucks all enjoyment out of the match and makes it much harder to play because every timing is off and your ability to micro is hindered.
I'd do the same thing.
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On September 06 2010 01:40 MorroW wrote:i won vs dimaga out of lag with 14 casters the entire series, was unplayable then in finals they wanted 14 casters again and i started without them in game 1, then game 2 and on i let them watch apologized for real afterwards, got angry because of the lag and disrespect of the admins to ignore what i had to say and thats why i started without them. ill be back after the ban time and i have cleared the air with them they will change their rules soon because situations like this are ridiculous which they agreed on there was no bad mannering going on here from either of the parties thats the truth Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:37 travis wrote:
yeah these players are being bitches, follow the rules you assholes your ignorant and disrespectful
hard to tell what is truth and what is not when it comes from you
http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/2017/morrowfail.jpg
and people like you shouldnt call others disrespectful as u r full of it
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On September 06 2010 03:44 {ToT}ColmA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:40 MorroW wrote:i won vs dimaga out of lag with 14 casters the entire series, was unplayable then in finals they wanted 14 casters again and i started without them in game 1, then game 2 and on i let them watch apologized for real afterwards, got angry because of the lag and disrespect of the admins to ignore what i had to say and thats why i started without them. ill be back after the ban time and i have cleared the air with them they will change their rules soon because situations like this are ridiculous which they agreed on there was no bad mannering going on here from either of the parties thats the truth On September 06 2010 01:37 travis wrote:
yeah these players are being bitches, follow the rules you assholes your ignorant and disrespectful hard to tell what is truth and what is not when it comes from you http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/2017/morrowfail.jpgand people like you shouldnt call others disrespectful as u r full of it
This was posted already but thanks?
"Regarding MorroW's ban: Since we didn't announce any ban for MorroW on our website so far please take any info Rakaka or other community websites release with a grain of salt. Yes, one of our admins did talk to MorroW after the cup and we didn't let him play in today's cup but I'm sure we will find a better solution to this issue as well since it's obvious that his behaviour was caused by our organization."
I am definitely happy they're owning up to their VERY, and i mean VERY, stupid mistake.
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On September 06 2010 03:44 {ToT}ColmA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:40 MorroW wrote:i won vs dimaga out of lag with 14 casters the entire series, was unplayable then in finals they wanted 14 casters again and i started without them in game 1, then game 2 and on i let them watch apologized for real afterwards, got angry because of the lag and disrespect of the admins to ignore what i had to say and thats why i started without them. ill be back after the ban time and i have cleared the air with them they will change their rules soon because situations like this are ridiculous which they agreed on there was no bad mannering going on here from either of the parties thats the truth On September 06 2010 01:37 travis wrote:
yeah these players are being bitches, follow the rules you assholes your ignorant and disrespectful hard to tell what is truth and what is not when it comes from you http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/2017/morrowfail.jpgand people like you shouldnt call others disrespectful as u r full of it
You get a cookie for taking things out of context.
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Good job Morrow. Sucks that you had to be the one who gets messed up for it but hey, you're already starting the dialog and change.
Here's how it should be: One official cast, and one "dead cast". What I mean by the dead cast is it is just an observer with the game sounds. This gives one cast to be the official one for people to watch, and then another one for other casters to restream with their casting over it. 2 Casters + Official obs. No one else. They can watch replays and the many streams that will be coming through restreaming the dead cast. Also, it makes it easy for restreamers because all they have to do is find the central link for dead casts. They can even enter a game midstream if one of their games finishes early!
I know your pain. I remember Obs games in BW... "who the hell is that lagging obs? Who let 6 obs in the game! Next time 4 max!".
The tournaments should be a little more professional about this (and a few other things) and maybe Morrow's action wasn't the best course, but it definitely needed to be done.
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since im in a quote now i just want to make it clear i wasn't actually trying to attack morrow or idra's character, it was just a casual comment on their approach to tournament rules. I don't like to attack the character of people I know next to nothing about
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I hope this 'incident' will lead to a better gaming environment, tournament organizers have to seriously think about the triangle of progamers - casters - organization, all three have stakes in a lagfree game. So it's in the best interest of all parties that a game should go without lag. Maybe a silly suggestion, and I know it isn't the most ideal solution for the casters, but what about letting one observer control the camera and casters can restream from his POV without being in the game themselves. So in this situation you'll only have 3 people ingame, the players and the 'cameraman', and maybe a referee or admin.
[edit]When I was writing this was posted, and it's a better explanation of the method I'm talking about.[/edit]
On September 06 2010 03:48 rackdude wrote:
Good job Morrow. Sucks that you had to be the one who gets messed up for it but hey, you're already starting the dialog and change.
Here's how it should be: One official cast, and one "dead cast". What I mean by the dead cast is it is just an observer with the game sounds. This gives one cast to be the official one for people to watch, and then another one for other casters to restream with their casting over it. 2 Casters + Official obs. No one else. They can watch replays and the many streams that will be coming through restreaming the dead cast. Also, it makes it easy for restreamers because all they have to do is find the central link for dead casts. They can even enter a game midstream if one of their games finishes early!
I know your pain. I remember Obs games in BW... "who the hell is that lagging obs? Who let 6 obs in the game! Next time 4 max!".
The tournaments should be a little more professional about this (and a few other things) and maybe Morrow's action wasn't the best course, but it definitely needed to be done.
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On September 06 2010 03:49 Cajun2k1 wrote:
I hope this 'incident' will lead to a better gaming environment, tournament organizers have to seriously think about the triangle of progamers - casters - organization, all three have stakes in a lagfree game. So it's in the best interest of all parties that a game should go without lag. Maybe a silly suggestion, and I know it isn't the most ideal solution for the casters, but what about letting one observer control the camera and casters can restream from his POV without being in the game themselves. So in this situation you'll only have 3 people ingame, the players and the 'cameraman', and maybe a referee or admin.
Anything, and I absolutely mean anything, is better than 14 other players in your game. I am still shocked that the admins let this happen on multiple occasions, apparently they have never played a multiplayer game in their lives.
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On September 06 2010 03:24 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:23 spinesheath wrote:
I guess Morrow deserves the ban for breaking the rules (sorry man, that's how it is :p), but ESL should notice now that something isn't going into the right direction here.
However, I blame Blizzard. It's actually fairly simple to implement observers in a way that completely eliminates lag for players. Essentially you just send the observers data and don't care whether they recieve it properly/in time or not. I have no idea why Blizzard didn't implement something like that. Lazy? Are you sure it's that simple? Really feels like there's got to be a reason for it being what it is, but then again.. they do make some questionable decisions. It has to be related to how Bnet works though, I mean.. They can't think having obs lag games adds anything to SC2.
Essentially it is that easy, yes. Sure there are a few details you have to take care of, but there are much more complex/difficult things that are absolutely mandatory for a RTS engine and bnet client.
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Whats sad is that Blizzard should have solved this from a technical standpoint. The game shoudn't lag due to a spectator can't catch up. The should just be dropped.
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I'm no networking wizard, but surely there is something Blizzard could do with how observers work so they have no affect on the players? This is going to be a constant issue with no real solution until Blizzard does something about it.
A hltv equivalent would be amazing, but it's probably not going to happen with all the other missing features.
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Morrow broke the rules and should be punished for it. A player disregarding the official caster of the tournament and rushing to start the game with a caster of his choice shows a huge lack of respect to the organization running the tournament. Since he broke the rules, he should be punished for it.
That said, allowing 14 casters into every game is beyond stupid. The ESL needs to work with its players to give the best viewing experience possible with minimal intrusion on the competitor's playing the game. But this needs to be addressed through the proper channels, not in a fit of rage mid-tournament.
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On September 06 2010 03:49 Cajun2k1 wrote:
I hope this 'incident' will lead to a better gaming environment, tournament organizers have to seriously think about the triangle of progamers - casters - organization, all three have stakes in a lagfree game.
And all 3 should be moaning at Blizzard as much as possible. No reason they can't allow infinite obs who are ignored by the server if they lag. Seeing "waiting for player x" when they're an OBSERVER is really ridiculous.
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On September 06 2010 03:57 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:49 Cajun2k1 wrote:
I hope this 'incident' will lead to a better gaming environment, tournament organizers have to seriously think about the triangle of progamers - casters - organization, all three have stakes in a lagfree game.
And all 3 should be moaning at Blizzard as much as possible. No reason they can't allow infinite obs who are ignored by the server if they lag. Seeing "waiting for player x" when they're an OBSERVER is really ridiculous.
No kidding, blizzard needs to fix this bigtime.
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On September 06 2010 03:56 Rokk wrote:
Morrow broke the rules and should be punished for it. A player disregarding the official caster of the tournament and rushing to start the game with a caster of his choice shows a huge lack of respect to the organization running the tournament. Since he broke the rules, he should be punished for it.
That said, allowing 14 casters into every game is beyond stupid. The ESL needs to work with its players to give the best viewing experience possible with minimal intrusion on the competitor's playing the game. But this needs to be addressed through the proper channels, not in a fit of rage mid-tournament.
Blabla "broke the rules and should be punished for it". So if someone had to exceed the speed limit due to an ambulance being behind it and there were no other lanes, the driver should be punished with a fine because he might have saved someones life. Yeah, right.
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On September 06 2010 03:59 qoiN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:56 Rokk wrote:
Morrow broke the rules and should be punished for it. A player disregarding the official caster of the tournament and rushing to start the game with a caster of his choice shows a huge lack of respect to the organization running the tournament. Since he broke the rules, he should be punished for it.
That said, allowing 14 casters into every game is beyond stupid. The ESL needs to work with its players to give the best viewing experience possible with minimal intrusion on the competitor's playing the game. But this needs to be addressed through the proper channels, not in a fit of rage mid-tournament. Blabla "broke the rules and should be punished for it". So if someone had to exceed the speed limit due to an ambulance being behind it and there were no other lanes, the driver should be punished with a fine because he might have saved someones life. Yeah, right.
This is a fairly poor analogy overall.
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On September 06 2010 03:59 qoiN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:56 Rokk wrote:
Morrow broke the rules and should be punished for it. A player disregarding the official caster of the tournament and rushing to start the game with a caster of his choice shows a huge lack of respect to the organization running the tournament. Since he broke the rules, he should be punished for it.
That said, allowing 14 casters into every game is beyond stupid. The ESL needs to work with its players to give the best viewing experience possible with minimal intrusion on the competitor's playing the game. But this needs to be addressed through the proper channels, not in a fit of rage mid-tournament. Blabla "broke the rules and should be punished for it". So if someone had to exceed the speed limit due to an ambulance being behind it and there were no other lanes, the driver should be punished with a fine because he might have saved someones life. Yeah, right.
Yes, you totally can compare that to a starcraft game...
Edit: Just think about all the lives Morrow saved!
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On September 06 2010 03:59 qoiN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:56 Rokk wrote:
Morrow broke the rules and should be punished for it. A player disregarding the official caster of the tournament and rushing to start the game with a caster of his choice shows a huge lack of respect to the organization running the tournament. Since he broke the rules, he should be punished for it.
That said, allowing 14 casters into every game is beyond stupid. The ESL needs to work with its players to give the best viewing experience possible with minimal intrusion on the competitor's playing the game. But this needs to be addressed through the proper channels, not in a fit of rage mid-tournament. Blabla "broke the rules and should be punished for it". So if someone had to exceed the speed limit due to an ambulance being behind it and there were no other lanes, the driver should be punished with a fine because he might have saved someones life. Yeah, right.
Ambulances can only ever use their sirens on roads with multiple lanes, and can only ever use their sirens incase of emergency. At least this is the law in England, on a single lane road an ambulance isn't allowed to use their siren.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Eventually people will realize that live streams of games is so open to abuse and is a bad idea.
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it seems like more or less everyone is a caster and commentator nowdays - and there are so many just doing it and doing it very badly at that.
if a tournament is sponsored it stands to reason they'd want an official stream where they can do their promotion and what-not. having more than three or four obs in a tournament game indicates the tournament is not serious and that who ever is hosting it has no respect for the players or the game. even if your tournament it being casted in several different languages you'd still want to do everything you can to keep the number of observers to a minimum.
the least you can do before letting a streamer into a tournament game is make sure his or her stream meets some sort of quality standard. sure, anyone can do a commentary, but that doesn't mean the commentary is any better than just listening to the in-game music. having an account on livestream/ustream does not by any means make you tasteless, day9, artosis or diggity.
finally, i'd like to congratulate morrow for being banned. obviously, this tournament is not good enough for him (and it's not likely to be in the very near future either). if i were him i'd stick to serious tournaments. that would at least allow him to be on time for his games. participating in several tournaments at once is bad for your reputation.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 06 2010 04:02 Kennigit wrote:
Eventually people will realize that live streams of games is so open to abuse and is a bad idea.
At least for events with prizepools bigger than 200 euro
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On September 06 2010 04:04 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 04:02 Kennigit wrote:
Eventually people will realize that live streams of games is so open to abuse and is a bad idea. At least for events with prizepools bigger than 200 euro
IEM qualifiers are going on live right now which leads to a very, very large prize pool.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
well i think the issue is all cleared up between both parties. ESL had a faulty rule and a player eventually got fed up and acted out unprofessionally and immaturely. He got punished accordingly and they in turn changed the rules. to an outsider it may seem a little harsh on morrow but as an organisation, you have to take action or you will be setting a bad precedent.
still, i cannot help think that maybe banning him from the next 3 events is a tad too severe since this will cripple his chances of making the next month's finals.
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On September 06 2010 04:02 Kennigit wrote:
Eventually people will realize that live streams of games is so open to abuse and is a bad idea.
People realised this as soon as beta started but nobody offered up an actual solution to it beyond casting replays, which assumes you can even get them to begin with.
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On September 06 2010 04:00 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:59 qoiN wrote:On September 06 2010 03:56 Rokk wrote:
Morrow broke the rules and should be punished for it. A player disregarding the official caster of the tournament and rushing to start the game with a caster of his choice shows a huge lack of respect to the organization running the tournament. Since he broke the rules, he should be punished for it.
That said, allowing 14 casters into every game is beyond stupid. The ESL needs to work with its players to give the best viewing experience possible with minimal intrusion on the competitor's playing the game. But this needs to be addressed through the proper channels, not in a fit of rage mid-tournament. Blabla "broke the rules and should be punished for it". So if someone had to exceed the speed limit due to an ambulance being behind it and there were no other lanes, the driver should be punished with a fine because he might have saved someones life. Yeah, right. This is a fairly poor analogy overall.
I think it brought out my point fairly well.
On September 06 2010 04:02 Cranberries wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:59 qoiN wrote:On September 06 2010 03:56 Rokk wrote:
Morrow broke the rules and should be punished for it. A player disregarding the official caster of the tournament and rushing to start the game with a caster of his choice shows a huge lack of respect to the organization running the tournament. Since he broke the rules, he should be punished for it.
That said, allowing 14 casters into every game is beyond stupid. The ESL needs to work with its players to give the best viewing experience possible with minimal intrusion on the competitor's playing the game. But this needs to be addressed through the proper channels, not in a fit of rage mid-tournament. Blabla "broke the rules and should be punished for it". So if someone had to exceed the speed limit due to an ambulance being behind it and there were no other lanes, the driver should be punished with a fine because he might have saved someones life. Yeah, right. Ambulances can only ever use their sirens on roads with multiple lanes, and can only ever use their sirens incase of emergency. At least this is the law in England, on a single lane road an ambulance isn't allowed to use their siren.
It happened in Sweden fairly recently.
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On September 06 2010 04:06 Telcontar wrote:
well i think the issue is all cleared up between both parties. ESL had a faulty rule and a player eventually got fed up and acted out unprofessionally and immaturely. He got punished accordingly and they in turn changed the rules. to an outsider it may seem a little harsh on morrow but as an organisation, you have to take action or you will be setting a bad precedent.
still, i cannot help think that maybe banning him from the next 3 events is a tad too severe since this will cripple his chances of making the next month's finals.
Did anyone read this?
On September 06 2010 03:27 Shawngood wrote:
Since the same argument is being brought up here constantly: We actually changed our streaming policy since Wednesday's disaster and now only "verified" casters will be allowed in the games in the quarter finals and all the later stages. In the currently running cup we have 2-3 casters and no observers besides one admin in the matches and as far as I can tell there were no lag issues so far.
It is actually in our interest to only have a selected few casters so that we can promote their streams on our website better and have a better run tournament overall. The rule of "anyone is welcome to stream" was introduced in beta when we were eager to have as much exposure as possible. There won't be 14 streamers or whatever ridiculous number is thrown aorund here again in a Go4SC2 match.
Regarding MorroW's ban: Since we didn't announce any ban for MorroW on our website so far please take any info Rakaka or other community websites release with a grain of salt. Yes, one of our admins did talk to MorroW after the cup and we didn't let him play in today's cup but I'm sure we will find a better solution to this issue as well since it's obvious that his behaviour was caused by our organization.
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On September 06 2010 04:07 qoiN wrote:
I think it brought out my point fairly well.
Well as long as you think that, I guess that's what is important?
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On September 06 2010 04:06 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 04:02 Kennigit wrote:
Eventually people will realize that live streams of games is so open to abuse and is a bad idea. People realised this as soon as beta started but nobody offered up an actual solution to it beyond casting replays, which assumes you can even get them to begin with.
True. Getting replays out of top players is a horrible experience and often you will not get the replays without a threat of DQ.
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On September 06 2010 04:08 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 04:07 qoiN wrote:
I think it brought out my point fairly well. Well as long as you think that, I guess that's what is important?
Being an ass is just as important as well I guess, /shoo.
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On September 06 2010 04:10 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 04:06 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 04:02 Kennigit wrote:
Eventually people will realize that live streams of games is so open to abuse and is a bad idea. People realised this as soon as beta started but nobody offered up an actual solution to it beyond casting replays, which assumes you can even get them to begin with. True. Getting replays out of top players is a horrible experience and often you will not get the replays without a threat of DQ.
Day9's KotB experience of 8 players and his horror stories that followed don't help to falsify this.
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On September 06 2010 04:10 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 04:06 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 04:02 Kennigit wrote:
Eventually people will realize that live streams of games is so open to abuse and is a bad idea. People realised this as soon as beta started but nobody offered up an actual solution to it beyond casting replays, which assumes you can even get them to begin with. True. Getting replays out of top players is a horrible experience and often you will not get the replays without a threat of DQ.
sadly that could be fixed by requiring to upload replays to the match site, or the system doesnt allow the player that doesnt upload to get a win lol...
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On September 06 2010 04:08 Usul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 04:06 Telcontar wrote:
well i think the issue is all cleared up between both parties. ESL had a faulty rule and a player eventually got fed up and acted out unprofessionally and immaturely. He got punished accordingly and they in turn changed the rules. to an outsider it may seem a little harsh on morrow but as an organisation, you have to take action or you will be setting a bad precedent.
still, i cannot help think that maybe banning him from the next 3 events is a tad too severe since this will cripple his chances of making the next month's finals. Did anyone read this? Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:27 Shawngood wrote:
Since the same argument is being brought up here constantly: We actually changed our streaming policy since Wednesday's disaster and now only "verified" casters will be allowed in the games in the quarter finals and all the later stages. In the currently running cup we have 2-3 casters and no observers besides one admin in the matches and as far as I can tell there were no lag issues so far.
It is actually in our interest to only have a selected few casters so that we can promote their streams on our website better and have a better run tournament overall. The rule of "anyone is welcome to stream" was introduced in beta when we were eager to have as much exposure as possible. There won't be 14 streamers or whatever ridiculous number is thrown aorund here again in a Go4SC2 match.
Regarding MorroW's ban: Since we didn't announce any ban for MorroW on our website so far please take any info Rakaka or other community websites release with a grain of salt. Yes, one of our admins did talk to MorroW after the cup and we didn't let him play in today's cup but I'm sure we will find a better solution to this issue as well since it's obvious that his behaviour was caused by our organization.
right he is sure they will find a better solution but as far as we know, morrow is still banned from the next 3 events. until we get confirmation saying otherwise, that is the status quo.
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On September 06 2010 04:12 Cranberries wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 04:10 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 04:06 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 04:02 Kennigit wrote:
Eventually people will realize that live streams of games is so open to abuse and is a bad idea. People realised this as soon as beta started but nobody offered up an actual solution to it beyond casting replays, which assumes you can even get them to begin with. True. Getting replays out of top players is a horrible experience and often you will not get the replays without a threat of DQ. Day9's KotB experience of 8 players and his horror stories that followed don't help to falsify this.
Yep. That was just with 8 people. I had to hunt down people left and right for the ITL Grand Prix replays. Only KawaiiRice sent replays without being asked 400 times.
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Why is there 14 casters? Should be one or two that redistributed.
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On September 06 2010 04:12 qoiN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 04:08 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 04:07 qoiN wrote:
I think it brought out my point fairly well. Well as long as you think that, I guess that's what is important? Being an ass is just as important as well I guess, /shoo.
Well that would be a first on TL, being called an ass.
This entire thread has demonstrated that the majority of community members posting in it are much more interested in rabble-rousing and tossing vitriol at various groups and individuals than providing any realistic solutions. Sadly, that's a reflection of the internet in general, but certain elements of TL didn't used to be quite so vile during the beta. Such a shame.
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if the 14 casters number isn't a huge exagerration - that's insane. why do we need 14 casters in one game when we know how much lag can be created by observers? add in the fact that they are using streaming software; the goal should be to have good games w/ adequate spectation. 14 casters is serious overkill. the tournament admins need to grow a pair and start forcing casters to compete or make deals for slots as long as this remains a problem.
for example, casters could take turns casting games if they are causing problems. if the games are bigs, like the finals or semi-finals, take turns casting finals and have the whole deal arbitrated by someone. or flip coins. or pick official casters. whatever.
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This is stupid. The ESL shouldn't be letting 14 observers in a game. They shouldnt even let 14 10+random streamers stream their matches. If you want to watch the ESL matches, watch the ESL stream. When they let these people do their own streams they arent supporting ESL they are supporting one streamer. Doesnt make any sense to me.
You want people to support ESL, make sure they are the only ones casting.
And the rule should be: at first sign of slowing down the game, the observer will be kicked.
Remember the match is more important than the cast. Without the match their can be no cast anyways. You shouldn't ruin matches so Bob can try to get e-famous by casting your tournament. (Bob is not a known caster or a reference to any casters, it just a name filler for the examples sake)
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I don't want to sound like a dick or anything but why is this argument still going? Mostly all points have been covered, we understand that what MorroW did was wrong. We understand that the random casters were being dicks and should not have been there if they lag. We have even got confirmation from MorroW, Telcontar and Shawngood about the situation. The only thing we don't know is if MorroW has been banned from the next 3 go4sc2 cups.
So, why does this discussion continue.
Sorry for sounding like a dick.
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Yes, people really need to read the thread before posting the same arguments again and again and again and again and...
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On September 06 2010 04:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 04:12 qoiN wrote:On September 06 2010 04:08 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 04:07 qoiN wrote:
I think it brought out my point fairly well. Well as long as you think that, I guess that's what is important? Being an ass is just as important as well I guess, /shoo. Well that would be a first on TL, being called an ass. This entire thread has demonstrated that the majority of community members posting in it are much more interested in rabble-rousing and tossing vitriol at various groups and individuals than providing any realistic solutions. Sadly, that's a reflection of the internet in general, but certain elements of TL didn't used to be quite so vile during the beta. Such a shame.
I wouldn't judge the majority of TL based on this thread. That's a bit drastic, some topics simply attract a.. vocal minority.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On September 06 2010 04:18 taintmachine wrote:
if the 14 casters number isn't a huge exagerration - that's insane. why do we need 14 casters in one game when we know how much lag can be created by observers? add in the fact that they are using streaming software; the goal should be to have good games w/ adequate spectation. 14 casters is serious overkill. the tournament admins need to grow a pair and start forcing casters to compete or make deals for slots as long as this remains a problem.
the problem of course could've been prevented had the admins realised the absurdity of the situation and taken action when morrow repeatedly told them of it. that of course doesnt justify morrow taking matters into his own hands so the fault lies with both parties.
its the time-old tale of common sense vs faulty rule.
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Dont forget that Morrow is very young, 18 right? Its not uncommon to do silly stuff at that age. Players that young shouldnt get bashed when they make some minor fuck-ups.
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On September 06 2010 04:07 qoiN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 04:00 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 03:59 qoiN wrote:On September 06 2010 03:56 Rokk wrote:
Morrow broke the rules and should be punished for it. A player disregarding the official caster of the tournament and rushing to start the game with a caster of his choice shows a huge lack of respect to the organization running the tournament. Since he broke the rules, he should be punished for it.
That said, allowing 14 casters into every game is beyond stupid. The ESL needs to work with its players to give the best viewing experience possible with minimal intrusion on the competitor's playing the game. But this needs to be addressed through the proper channels, not in a fit of rage mid-tournament. Blabla "broke the rules and should be punished for it". So if someone had to exceed the speed limit due to an ambulance being behind it and there were no other lanes, the driver should be punished with a fine because he might have saved someones life. Yeah, right. This is a fairly poor analogy overall. I think it brought out my point fairly well.
If your point was to compare playing in a laggy video game for a few hundred dollars to someone potentially dying, then I guess you did. Some comparisons just aren't worth making.
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I have no idea why this is being discussed to 17 pages...
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Jesus christ, people should stop being stupid about breaking rules. Breaking a rule doesn't make him stupid.
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On September 06 2010 04:12 Cranberries wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 04:10 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 04:06 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 04:02 Kennigit wrote:
Eventually people will realize that live streams of games is so open to abuse and is a bad idea. People realised this as soon as beta started but nobody offered up an actual solution to it beyond casting replays, which assumes you can even get them to begin with. True. Getting replays out of top players is a horrible experience and often you will not get the replays without a threat of DQ. Day9's KotB experience of 8 players and his horror stories that followed don't help to falsify this.
What horror stories? Somehow I must have missed that. Can anyone elaborate (or link)?
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On September 06 2010 04:37 FrogOfWar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 04:12 Cranberries wrote:On September 06 2010 04:10 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 04:06 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 04:02 Kennigit wrote:
Eventually people will realize that live streams of games is so open to abuse and is a bad idea. People realised this as soon as beta started but nobody offered up an actual solution to it beyond casting replays, which assumes you can even get them to begin with. True. Getting replays out of top players is a horrible experience and often you will not get the replays without a threat of DQ. Day9's KotB experience of 8 players and his horror stories that followed don't help to falsify this. What horror stories? Somehow I must have missed that. Can anyone elaborate (or link)?
Check daily 165 and he describes it in pretty good detail. It was essentially troubles with players not sending replays, losing replays etcetc. It's a wonder the tournament worked out in the end.
WhiteRa lost some replay because he threw his computer in a swimming pool IIRC?
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On September 06 2010 04:38 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 04:37 FrogOfWar wrote:On September 06 2010 04:12 Cranberries wrote:On September 06 2010 04:10 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On September 06 2010 04:06 TotalBiscuit wrote:On September 06 2010 04:02 Kennigit wrote:
Eventually people will realize that live streams of games is so open to abuse and is a bad idea. People realised this as soon as beta started but nobody offered up an actual solution to it beyond casting replays, which assumes you can even get them to begin with. True. Getting replays out of top players is a horrible experience and often you will not get the replays without a threat of DQ. Day9's KotB experience of 8 players and his horror stories that followed don't help to falsify this. What horror stories? Somehow I must have missed that. Can anyone elaborate (or link)? Check daily 165 and he describes it in pretty good detail. It was essentially troubles with players not sending replays, losing replays etcetc. It's a wonder the tournament worked out in the end. WhiteRa lost some replay because he threw his computer in a swimming pool IIRC?
Yeah you remember correctly, I lol'd so hard.
Seriously it took an average of asking 4 times to get every non-KawaiiRice replay for the ITL Grand Prix, and some only arrived minutes before they were cast. Some players never actually sent them, but I got them from the other player.
Seriously it's a widespread and rampant problem.
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I would of done the same as morrow in his situation.
It's bullshit, and after the games VS dimaga i stoped watching. WTF 14 casters, players lagging like hell, can't micro, can't play, and the casters don't leave and are just happy to be in the game while the players are struggling to play.
It's not fun to watch laggy games, and not fun to watch games that stop because of lag from time to time and have freeze each time there is some action.
Really very bad organisation from EPS, banning a player for reacting to your bad organisation is even more stupid. He is right, it wasn't his place to try fixing it by his means, but since the probleme is half the fault of the organisation, he shouldn't get banned for it.
Anyway thanks morrow for reacting to this matter and forcing some change even if you get banned, because it. It was needed.
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On September 06 2010 04:43 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Seriously it took an average of asking 4 times to get every non-KawaiiRice replay for the ITL Grand Prix, and some only arrived minutes before they were cast. Some players never actually sent them, but I got them from the other player.
Seriously it's a widespread and rampant problem.
The easiest solution would be to require the winner to upload all the replays immediately after completing the games otherwise he can't move on. Make it known ahead of time in bold size 48 font.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Well, I gotta side with Morrow here. No matter what the rules are, I'm still on the side of players first. If he isn't able to micro, then the observers can go bugger off.
If he isn't able to perform at his highest level due to stuff like obs lagging the game, then that certainly isn't his fault at all. Totally understand his frustration.
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I watched some morrow's games he keeps whining over little things,so he had that coming :/
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I believe the end result of this is appropriate.
Morrow needs to stand up for himself, playing with lag due to 10 observers is not acceptable when there is money on the line.
ESL needs to show that players have to follow the rules, thus banning Morrow is appropriate, at least for a short period of time. However, they have shown with the intended rule change that they do care about the players, and about providing the highest quality of games possible (i.e. lag free.)
The games are still being streamed, so everyone can just restream off of that if certain fans prefer a certain commentator.
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I agree with what Morrow did, but it's a shame that it had to come to that.
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On September 06 2010 05:22 Astronaut wrote:
I believe the end result of this is appropriate.
Morrow needs to stand up for himself, playing with lag due to 10 observers is not acceptable when there is money on the line.
ESL needs to show that players have to follow the rules, thus banning Morrow is appropriate, at least for a short period of time. However, they have shown with the intended rule change that they do care about the players, and about providing the highest quality of games possible (i.e. lag free.)
The games are still being streamed, so everyone can just restream off of that if certain fans prefer a certain commentator.
Money that came from the sponsors who funded the tournament and the ones who are streaming on the line lol....
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It's extremely frustrating to play with lag and I totally understand MorroW. It's pretty sad that he got banned(even temporarily) in order for a rule change to be considered. It's very likely that the rules would've stayed the same, if it wasn't for his action.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On September 06 2010 05:35 AppleTart wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 05:22 Astronaut wrote:
I believe the end result of this is appropriate.
Morrow needs to stand up for himself, playing with lag due to 10 observers is not acceptable when there is money on the line.
ESL needs to show that players have to follow the rules, thus banning Morrow is appropriate, at least for a short period of time. However, they have shown with the intended rule change that they do care about the players, and about providing the highest quality of games possible (i.e. lag free.)
The games are still being streamed, so everyone can just restream off of that if certain fans prefer a certain commentator. Money that came from the sponsors who funded the tournament and the ones who are streaming on the line lol....
What he did was wrong. No doubt about that. But when a player can't perform to his highest ability due to stuff like lag thanks to a ton of observers or whatnot, then it's understandable that he's gonna get pissed.
Yes, I know it's ESL's tourney and it's their rules, but in tournaments with money on the line, it should always be players first.
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imagine how athletes would respond if you have them fucked up equipment or something like that.
players need to stand up for themselves and morrow\idra are doing that.
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The tunnel vision from the casters > players camp is getting really tired, and really only two or three posters keep saying the same stuff over and over again. Sorry but we don't agree. Unfortunately, the reason this thread is 18 pages is b/c they think reptetition is going to change our minds - hah. They can claim, oh well the organizes/sponsors (and hence casters) need to get paid. Ok no problem. When they realize that a tournament requires willing players to be involved, maybe they will get their priorities in line.
Shawngood made a post on Page14 indicating something will be done...eh I am still reserving judgement. If Morrow is not truly banned, as he claimed, then I will be relieved, but I wouldn't be surprised if they leave him out to dry - as a power move.
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On September 06 2010 01:07 DorN wrote:
No Stream => No Premium Viewers => No Money for the ESL => No Pricemoney => No Cup
Have fun with the Ban Morrow.
This is all that needs to be said.
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On September 06 2010 05:55 ShaperofDreams wrote:
imagine how athletes would respond if you have them fucked up equipment or something like that.
players need to stand up for themselves and morrow\idra are doing that.
Seriously, I mean a from the tournament runners perspective having a cast is great, it does feel like they did go to an extreme ( 14 fucking casters? ) and really I think the players needs, especially when it's something that can be severe like lag, should be put first.
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Why the hell does a tournament need 14 casters/obs anyway?? So there's like a gazillion channels broadcasting?
Any competent promoter would limit it to a few casters/streamers at most. This way there's control and you can brand your tournament, advertise or do whatever with it.
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I can't imagine a need for more than maybe 5-6 observers in a game MAX. Organizers of tournaments need to get their act together and preselect a group of streamers that will serve the audience's language needs. There is really no reason to have two streams in the same language in the same game.
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holy shit, 14 casters? and they banned him for solid reasoning?
you should drop the tournament morrow. they don't deserve to have a player of your skill level after that.
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On September 06 2010 01:42 Mannerheim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:01 AmaZing wrote:
but seriously if a fucking player does not want you in the freaking game, he doesnt want you in the FREAKING GAME! So bm these ppl. I know BigT wasnt at fault and i didnt think he was at fault the last time either but WOW wtf. because a caster "WANTED TO JOIN", STFU and join one of the other 31 games... ffs Organized tournaments and leagues are not the players' personal playgrounds where they can do whatever they want. If following rules is too difficult, don't sign up. Totally with ESL on this one.
That's just completely retarded though. For like 10 years it's always been "if lag -> obs out". ESL being unable to adapt is just really childish and unprofessional. The players need to be able to play. If those were the rules, well fuck awful rulesets then.
EDIT: And that'd be even if all the casters were bearable. However, only about 2 of the casters are listenable. How does it make sense to have 12 extra, useless casters no one wants to listen to?
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It´s not like ESL went around and begged all of thoose guys to stream their tournement. Of course it somewhat promotes them but their bigges success is if it gets them more premium viewers that view the ESL.tv.
But esltv is only in german as far as I know thus they are happy if they have some more streamers in other languages.
All that aside playing with lag sucks and they already mentioned that they are going to change the rules to probably reduce the amout of observers and hopefully get rid of the lags.
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On September 06 2010 06:00 jumanji69 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:07 DorN wrote:
No Stream => No Premium Viewers => No Money for the ESL => No Pricemoney => No Cup
Have fun with the Ban Morrow. This is all that needs to be said.
I find it kind of funny how this statement assumes that everything revolves around - and originates from - the cup, when it is in fact the (big name) players that draws the crowd. Not the other way around. If the players can't play, then they won't play. There won't be a money-driven tournament without the "cash cow" participants.
It's all about getting the priorities straight, and balancing the interests on both sides. Especially now, when there are a gazillion different tournaments with similar layouts and prizes.
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they were right to ban him for starting without observers but 14 observers/casters is pretty ridiculous.. should be 5ish tops imo
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On September 06 2010 06:34 Blackhawk13 wrote:
they were right to ban him for starting without observers but 14 observers/casters is pretty ridiculous.. should be 5ish tops imo
To be honest, if he doesn't want obs, I think they should grant him no obs. Especially after what went down the game before with 14 obs.
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In all seriousness, 99% of casters/admins/etc are powertripping bronze leaguers with ego issues. I don't blame MorroW at all.
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Seriously, what does 14 casters even do? If people were going to watch the cup, they'd watch it anyway. Just have one decent caster duo and you'll get the same amount of viewers. The great majority of the SC2 casters are horrendous with either terrible voices or zero game knowledge, anyway.
EDIT: Agree with the post above mine completely. Even right now there's like 500 different streams open and only iccup.tv is listenable
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I think part of the problem is that obs have become so fucking BM. If someone said "Person A you lag out please" in broodwar they left in most cases now in SC2 those fuckers just stay in the game disrespecting the players.
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On September 06 2010 06:39 HalfAmazing wrote:In all seriousness, 99% of casters/admins/etc are powertripping bronze leaguers with ego issues. I don't blame MorroW at all.
I was gonna right something like this.
Why the hell are we letting moronic casters ruin the scene and interfere with the gaming?
There's no way in hell you need 14 people in a game.
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Even ignoring lag shouldn't players be able to say no to any casters not running a delay. Or am I the only one who finds it weird they force players to have their games streamed live during tourneys. I mean who doesn't have dual monitors nowadays.
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From a first persons perspective, in Morrow's defense, the games were actually very laggy due to the amount of streamers in the game. However, that didn't give Morrow the right to break the tournament rules and start the game without the other casters. He got what he deserved... a ban for a week. But he also got ESL to change the rules, so like Morrow said, the air is now clear. I will look forward to casting him and the go4sc2 cup again next week!
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Players bashing casters, casters defending ESL saying he broke the rules,morrow saying screw the rules i have money(not rly), and this thread is screwing the rules' justification. and now rule change. all in all good thread.
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Saw the title and was about to rage. Luckily I read before posting.
MorroW is definitely one of my favorites, and I'm glad to see this was a minor issue that's already on its way to being resolved.
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On September 06 2010 06:37 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 06:34 Blackhawk13 wrote:
they were right to ban him for starting without observers but 14 observers/casters is pretty ridiculous.. should be 5ish tops imo To be honest, if he doesn't want obs, I think they should grant him no obs. Especially after what went down the game before with 14 obs.
Then all players could request no obs and then they would never be able to stream anything
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blizzard certainly did not set up bnet 2.0 to be conducive to e-sports, but they did set up the replay system really well so it's pretty much like being an obs, esl should at least have a backup plan to cast replays and take into consideration sometimes players have lag problems
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On September 06 2010 01:03 GobIin wrote:
Some peoople were lagging up the games, so morrow raged and refused to not let any obs in. I don't blame him, its very frustrating to him
This. Glad they changed their policy about obs now so they lag will be kept to a minimum now.
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14 casters? Why? There's so many bad casters out there it's unbelievable. I don't support letting terrible casters have the opportunity to cast a pro game.. ever!
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Good, at least players know wut can happen now.
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If there are 14 casters they better be casting in at least 7 different languages, that is a little ridiculous.
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Wow, really pathetic and insecure of EPS Nordic to ban Morrow for their own mistake.
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All in all this is ultimately blizzard's fault. I still don't understand why they haven't implemented a similar system as the one described in my post here.
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On September 06 2010 07:07 Gentso wrote:
14 casters? Why? There's so many bad casters out there it's unbelievable. I don't support letting terrible casters have the opportunity to cast a pro game.. ever!
100% agree. How I've grown to appreciate ICCup.TV, especially since release after they stopped playing bad music during their casts and a few select people which made the casts 1000% worse don't cast for them anymore (or I'm just lucky and haven't heard them for a long time).
I don't understand the appeal of having someone with limited knowledge of the game and little casting experience doing these events. They should practice on YouTube with replays first. I'm not saying we shouldn't give them a chance but it shouldn't be during events like these.
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since there are so many streamers, cant ESL asign streamers to certain games/players, in that way theres way more coverage and less people in every game.
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On September 06 2010 06:42 Klive5ive wrote:
I was gonna right something like this.
I'm really sorry, but I have to ask this:
Am I the only one that's annoyed by this?
I know 'right' sounds like 'write'.
I know 'guise' sounds like 'guys'.
I know 'there' sounds like ' their',
but they're different words! It especially annoys me that just about everyone that makes these kinds of 'mistakes' is a native english speaker. FYI: I am not. And I am trying very hard to make sure everything I type on this magnificent thing called the internet is comprehensible for everybody with a basic grasp of the english language. It wouldn't hurt anyone to just take the effort to use the right words.
Wilbert
P.S. I am not offended, I just don't get why people write their posts this way.
P.P.S. I love you all, even the people who intentionally or unintentionally butcher the beautiful english language.
P.P.P.S. I'm drunk. Sorry for this off topic banter.
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I hate how all of a sudden there are 10 different stream choices on the On Air section. Fuck, so many noob casters who miss important shit and just keep plugging their twitter accounts.
Can't we have casters only from major esport sites?!
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On September 06 2010 07:23 WilbertK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 06:42 Klive5ive wrote:
I was gonna right something like this. I'm really sorry, but I have to ask this: Am I the only one that's annoyed by this? I know 'right' sounds like 'write'. I know 'guise' sounds like 'guys'. I know 'there' sounds like ' their', but they're different words! It especially annoys me that just about everyone that makes these kinds of 'mistakes' is a native english speaker. FYI: I am not. And I am trying very hard to make sure everything I type on this magnificent thing called the internet is comprehensible for everybody with a basic grasp of the english language. It wouldn't hurt anyone to just take the effort to use the right words. Wilbert P.S. I am not offended, I just don't get why people write their posts this way. P.P.S. I love you all, even the people who intentionally or unintentionally butcher the beautiful english language. P.P.P.S. I'm drunk. Sorry for this off topic banter.
Guise is a deliberate mispelling. But otherwise yeah, we're pretty lazy about our homonyms.
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On September 06 2010 07:29 DwD wrote:
I hate how all of a sudden there are 10 different stream choices on the On Air section. Fuck, so many noob casters who miss important shit and just keep plugging their twitter accounts.
Can't we have casters only from major esport sites?!
there was once a day where there were only iccup and GLHF to get our sc2 tournaments coverage.. but with more population came more streamers and tournaments. not saying its bad, just there's such a small chance of a good content/quality stream to catch now that the dissapointments come hard and often.
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Easy fix: One/two streamers. No observers aside from that. Maybe a ref.
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Somebody please fix the title of this thread... he's not banned from 2 weeks of ESL Nordic, RIGHT?
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i was watching tarson vs bandit i think earlier and there was lag issues with tesla slowing down the game, tarson said out then admin said out plz your ruining the game and tesla simply said. No I'm a caster, such bm shit respect the players PLZ
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This is why games should be casted from replays, just like the good old days
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I completely and utterly agree with Morrow here, the lag was unbearable and it ruined the last cup. And it's purely down to the fact that there were too many streamers and observers. Now I don't believe this has anything to do with bnet being unable to support that many in game it's clearly because more people observing increases the risk exponentially of someone having internet issues, especially when they're streaming the game.
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Yes but do you REALLY want LAN?
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On September 06 2010 08:26 ComusLoM wrote:
Now I don't believe this has anything to do with bnet being unable to support that many in game it's clearly because more people observing increases the risk exponentially of someone having internet issues, especially when they're streaming the game.
The point is bnet should be set up so obs have no affect on the players connection.
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I think neither Morrow nor the ESL are to blame. They are a little bit involved - but not the real culprits.
- Morrow was correct in speaking up & demanding a lag free game. He was wrong in just starting with his favourite caster and leaving the main ESL caster out.
- The ESL was wrong in allowing so many casters in the game.
But do we really want the ESL to say: "Only OUR caster. No one else"? That caster would be Take. He's casting in German and the stream requires octoshape. I personally dont have a problem with that setup - but other people who i.e. dont understand German might see this in another way.
And no - some random stream in English doesnt benefint them at all. No ad revenue. No sponsor money. They dont even know the amount of people who watch that other stream. If the quality of the stream is good enough it might be even detremental to their own premium stream, because of the "competitor".
So allowing other casters (other languages) into their tourney is something we should be glad for. Because it means more content for a lot of people.
But who is to blame?
Well - what about the retarded casters who dont leave?
In my opinion only they can and should be blamed. "But I have 100 viewers" - How about you tell them to go to TL and watch the same stream that 3000 other people watch?
I honestly cannot understand those people. "You lag - out" "But I stream for my 20 friends" ....
They should just do some random tests. Players/Admins should call out an observer to leave. If he does - he may cast another tournament. If he doesnt no more tourneys for you.
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On September 06 2010 08:35 f0rk wrote:
The point is bnet should be set up so obs have no affect on the players connection.
Except with their implementation this might not be possible.
The easy way is to just tell people they can't cast if the tourney has too many.
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On September 06 2010 08:27 bendez wrote:
Yes but do you REALLY want LAN?
LAN wouldn'tve really fixed this problem, though, as it's an online tournament. that's a rather irreverent statement.
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On September 06 2010 07:23 WilbertK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 06:42 Klive5ive wrote:
I was gonna right something like this. I'm really sorry, but I have to ask this: Am I the only one that's annoyed by this? I know 'right' sounds like 'write'. I know 'guise' sounds like 'guys'. I know 'there' sounds like ' their', but they're different words! It especially annoys me that just about everyone that makes these kinds of 'mistakes' is a native english speaker. FYI: I am not. And I am trying very hard to make sure everything I type on this magnificent thing called the internet is comprehensible for everybody with a basic grasp of the english language. It wouldn't hurt anyone to just take the effort to use the right words. Wilbert P.S. I am not offended, I just don't get why people write their posts this way. P.P.S. I love you all, even the people who intentionally or unintentionally butcher the beautiful english language. P.P.P.S. I'm drunk. Sorry for this off topic banter.
Don't get bothered so much by insignificant things otherwise you'll end up being angry at everything.
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On September 06 2010 08:27 bendez wrote:
Yes but do you REALLY want LAN?
That'll never get old :D
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Can I get a list of the 14 casters who refused to leave the laggy game? I'd like to see this list of absolute jerks with no respect for the players.
Whatever Morrow did by starting a game is bad blah blah blah. Being an observer, causing lag, then refusing to leave when a player is specifically asking you to is beyond rude to me. You're basically deliberately ruining the game.
I want the list of these jerks!
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Why aren't more tournaments cast from replays?
It's kind of silly to cause players to lag just because you want viewers.
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he deserved the ban, but the admins should have been more reasonable and willing to listen to his argument
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I watched the event and both the players were complaining of lag. I can sympathize with the players, lag is a serious issue particularly at high levels of play where micro timing is critical to some strategies.
This isn't Broodwar where you can play LAN and get no lag. You have to use Bnet. Serious tournaments should have only the minimum required observers. The rest can watch a stream or VODs.
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On September 06 2010 09:06 cyprin wrote:
Why aren't more tournaments cast from replays?
It's kind of silly to cause players to lag just because you want viewers.
The community feels more involved if it's able to watch the games live than having to wait for it to finish to watch the replays. It also strengthens the community as we watch the games together as one. Live games generate money and interest. Replays only would hurt that.
New rules have to be implemented to prevent the lag from being a problem in the future.
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Having to play with lag is a joke. The integrity of the match should mean more than a caster getting into the game imo. I wouldnt have someone telling me I have to wait for them to join just so they could lag my game while admins did nothing.
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Why don't professional Starcraft 2 players form a union? Is there already one?
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I'm glad you stood up for the players', Morrow
It was a fairly extreme act on your behalf, but it was also very inconsiderate of the organization to impose lag on your games. Hopefully this type of conflict won't be an issue in the future
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On September 06 2010 01:29 underscore wrote:
Morrow is just jealous that TaKe has his own Fanthread on TL and he doesn't.
TaKe has his own fan thread? Wow.....well i guess fly's find there way in every message board :x
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It should really be up to the players wheter or not there should be streamers, this is some retarded shit..
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On September 06 2010 10:00 Innsmouth-Zerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 01:29 underscore wrote:
Morrow is just jealous that TaKe has his own Fanthread on TL and he doesn't. TaKe has his own fan thread? Wow.....well i guess fly's find there way in every message board :x
TaKe is a baller, decides to not talk about balance and doesn't afraid of anything.
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On September 06 2010 00:47 m3rciless wrote:
i guess he doesnt want people to see his strats. Still, hes usually so manner.
Pretty sure everyone knows he goes reaper :p
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I'm siding with Morrow on this one... Now most of you probably make the relation of pro egamers and real super stars but you got to understand that these casters are actually effecting the gameplay on various levels. That and they are all amateurs wanting to make a buck, they really need to start coordinating a union or regulations
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I don't blame Morrow. If someone was laggin my game, I wouldn't let them back in either. Especially for a tournament. Honestly, he should never of even had to start without dude. That guy should have been courteous enough to tell Morrow to go on without him, if he knew he was lagging. Also, BigT you're a dick for postin that ss. Were you just tryin to get someone in trouble, or tryin to look cool that you talk to morrow? Pretty sure he's got your backstabbin ass on ignore now. That's some fucked up shit to do man. You're like that little girl that runs and tattles on everyone.
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Shitty amateur streamers should have little to no rights versus the players that have actually invested significant time into gaming and are amazing at what they do. Morrow shouldn't cop any flak from this.
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On September 06 2010 10:36 Scarecrow wrote:
Shitty amateur streamers should have little to no rights versus the players that have actually invested significant time into gaming and are amazing at what they do. Morrow shouldn't cop any flak from this.
And of those of us who do this professionally for a living? Or are you simply lumping all casters into the same pot for the sake of convenience here?
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why are there 14 casters...
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Yep ban a player for you'r own stupidity and incompetence. The players couldn't play with 14 fucking streamers, who in the world would play with 14 spectators in a game in semi finals or finals of a tournament ?
I watched the games, and dimaga lost purely to the streamers not to morrow. He just couldn't play and suicided his hole army during a freeze where no one could control his troupes.
EPS had a very bad organisation, and the streamers/spectators didn't have any kind of respect for the players as they were lagging and slowing the game but none of them decided to leave to let the players play in better conditions.
What Morrow did is understandable, since the admins of the League didn't react to this shitty situation and weren't doing much to improve the players conditions, he just decided to play without 14 casters slowing the game.
Next time, instead of banning a player, try taking responsibility for you'r own mistakes, and fix the issues before it come to players taking a stand and going against the rules because the admins are sleeping, or happy to stack a game with all their streamer friends to look gosu.
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Put yourself in Morrows shoes. He is a respectable player, and knows he beat diamaga unfairly due to lag caused by spectators. He, as most would agree, understood that the ESLs rules on allowing every spectator in is poorly thought out.
I belieave he didn't allow TaKe in to send out a message. If he denies a few randoms, who cares. He denied TaKe so people would take notice and listen. And it worked. ESL is changing up thier spectator rules.
+1 for morrow. He wanted to make a point, and hell it worked.
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On September 06 2010 00:47 m3rciless wrote:
i guess he doesnt want people to see his strats. Still, hes usually so manner.
It has nothing to do with ppl seeing his strats, the replay will always be uploaded later for anyone in the world to see if they want.
It can also be cast by anyone as well.
having 12 extra people in a game can create a lot of excess lag. If a player decides he doesnt want to play with lag it should be respected.
I would do the exact same thing, try to play at a professional level with lag caused by people who arent even playing without getting pissed off.
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On September 06 2010 10:01 uzrOne wrote:
It should really be up to the players wheter or not there should be streamers, this is some retarded shit..
I disagree, without spectators and fans the tourney wouldn't even be running.
However, I think if lag is a problem they should reduce it to just the 'official' streamers and others can find a different game. Also I think if there is lag even the official streamers should man up and make the call to cover a different game because no one is going to enjoy watching a laggy game anyway.
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Very bad move by Morrow. The ban for should be way longer so he would actually learn his lesson there. Big diva move that should be punished hard. 2 wins(2weeks = 2games) at eps is prolly like 100bucks, he just won a big tournament and wont care alot.
He was told that the rules would be changed next week.. He still goes ahead and decides to be a diva about it and insta starts a final game. There was no reason for that behavior whatsoever.
I think alot of ppl will change their opinion about morrow, he already came across quite arrogant in some of the early beta interviews and just confirmed my initial thoughts about him.
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I wonder if this suspension would be as long as it is if MorroW hadn't invited only BigT to cast his game while keeping the official caster out.
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On September 06 2010 11:55 TheDna wrote:
He was told that the rules would be changed next week.. He still goes ahead and decides to be a diva about it and insta starts a final game. There was no reason for that behavior whatsoever.
I think alot of ppl will change their opinion about morrow, he already came across quite arrogant in some of the early beta interviews and just confirmed my initial thoughts about him.
He was told the rules would be changed after he was banned not before. He had reasons for his behavior. Damn good reasons. He wasn't being arrogant in his interview, he was being confident just like Idra, but it's very common to miss understand that when English is not your main language
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Good move by Morrow
Idiots coming in here on their high horse saying that morrow should of known better, go away.
There is a reason why things don't change, its because people like Morrow and Idra who make sure that their voices are heard and things are done about it.
Want to know the perfect fix to this issues without restricting streams etc......
LAN OPTIONS.
Blizzard have indeed failed at it.
Pretty much you have seen that blizzard are now activision as they are trying to milk everything out of a decent game for the lowest price.
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On September 06 2010 11:46 deL wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 10:01 uzrOne wrote:
It should really be up to the players wheter or not there should be streamers, this is some retarded shit.. I disagree, without spectators and fans the tourney wouldn't even be running. However, I think if lag is a problem they should reduce it to just the 'official' streamers and others can find a different game. Also I think if there is lag even the official streamers should man up and make the call to cover a different game because no one is going to enjoy watching a laggy game anyway.
you dont have to stream LIVE to stream. the integrity of the tournaments (lag and cheating off the streams as well as things like bigt telling players what their opponents did in past matches), and avoiding drama bullshit like this, is far more important than a 15-30 minute delay. if you dont want to be spoiled dont watch the chat and dont go to websites until you're finished watching. simple as that.
just say that players must submit their replays immediately after the match, and then you broadcast whichever ones you want whenever you want, you can do replays of famous players immediately after their matches and itll be essentially the same as watching the tournament live, or you can pick and choose the best matches for a different kind of entertainment value.
its actually better in every single way.
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On September 06 2010 12:03 Samus wrote:
...
There is a reason why things don't change, its because people like Morrow and Idra who make sure that their voices are heard and things are done about it.
...
You don't seem to understand the problem at all why bother and post with your half baked knowledge ?
He was actually told before that the rules WILL change for the next cup because of his and other players complains.. He still went ahead and broke the rules without a reason.
On September 06 2010 11:59 GenoZStriker wrote:
He was told the rules would be changed after he was banned not before. He had reasons for his behavior. Damn good reasons. He wasn't being arrogant in his interview, he was being confident just like Idra, but it's very common to miss understand that when English is not your main language
He was told way before the game took place. It was on takes stream in the chat before said game. His ban was after the games..
Take was def on his side even telling him that the rules will change and that he will take care of it. Afterwards to thank him Take wasnt invited to the game and Morrow insta started without him.
So its not even close information wise, i wonder where you guys get your informations from or if just imagine them.
Also i m talking about the very early beta interviews. He said his intentions were to dominate and influence sc2 in the early stages like Savior did in BW or something like that. I even remember some threads here stating how arrogant he came across there
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Why should a pro gamers game be put at risk because of such a ridiculous amount of observers? Maybe the lag should be addressed rather than attacking the gamers.
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I understand wanting to have observers (I'm an fan, and I like watching things live), but why do you need fourteen different streamers? Wouldn't, say....one be enough?
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On September 06 2010 11:55 TheDna wrote:
Very bad move by Morrow. The ban for should be way longer so he would actually learn his lesson there. Big diva move that should be punished hard. 2 wins(2weeks = 2games) at eps is prolly like 100bucks, he just won a big tournament and wont care alot.
He was told that the rules would be changed next week.. He still goes ahead and decides to be a diva about it and insta starts a final game. There was no reason for that behavior whatsoever.
I think alot of ppl will change their opinion about morrow, he already came across quite arrogant in some of the early beta interviews and just confirmed my initial thoughts about him.
If anything a lot of people probably changed their opinion of morrow for the better after this, what he did was just fine. 14 casters... i thought the OP was just being hyperbole to get his point across but when i found out it was actually true i nearly choked, 14 casters is fucking ridiculous.
Oh and Diva? hahaha
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This mass "caster" thing is ridiclous. Srsly every one seems to watch a day9 and then say hey let me go for it now too. And now we get 14 fucking casters for a pro match... That is over kill and morrow had every right to think that that was ridiclous.
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Hopping in on this train again.
I can't even think of 14 notable casters. I doubt any of those casters were even Day9,Tasteless, Artosis, Chill etc. In either case, the truly big name casters seem to cast through reps anyway while all the amateur casters are killing over live games. Maybe they should learn from example.
Also the difference between huge leagues like IEM, GSL is that they have at least some professional backing, while most casters are just livestreaming/ustreaming all on their own.
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This problem isnt new, so there should be a solid rule for streamers. If BNet is laggy then the number of observers should be set to ONE ... that way the game is cast and only minimal lag is added. How this one stream is determined needs to be put in the rules as well, because some players might have an aversion to some casters and some casters might be laggier than others. Sadly Blizzard doesnt provide a "ping" for BNet to compare how laggy someone really is ... until the game throws up the "lag box with the countdown".
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Not exactly the point of this thread, but I'm just wondering why observers lag a game at all.
Don't know how their current system works techically.. but
Could they do a thing where data is kept in sync with only one observer + players. That observer would then "stream" necessary data to other observers and so on, not affecting the players at all.
With some kind of smart p2p system you could have practically limitless spectators.
But.. sc2+battle.net can't do that.. anyway, just a thought.
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On September 06 2010 16:55 Siwa wrote:
Not exactly the point of this thread, but I'm just wondering why observers lag a game at all.
Don't know how their current system works techically.. but
Could they do a thing where data is kept in sync with only one observer + players. That observer would then "stream" necessary data to other observers and so on, not affecting the players at all.
With some kind of smart p2p system you could have practically limitless spectators.
But.. sc2+battle.net can't do that.. anyway, just a thought.
Well, it's clear blizzard has no intention to provide the quality of online experience that HoN has(not talking about the actual gameplay, but the network and server solution they've employed) where if someone lags, it doesn't affect other people in the game.
At the very least, you'd think they would make it so that obs dont affect players, but no, that would be too, I don't know, 2.0?
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Personally, I'd rather have a delay and watch the players play in a lag-free environment than watch it live and have their micro/macro disrupted because of obs
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On September 06 2010 12:22 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 11:46 deL wrote:On September 06 2010 10:01 uzrOne wrote:
It should really be up to the players wheter or not there should be streamers, this is some retarded shit.. I disagree, without spectators and fans the tourney wouldn't even be running. However, I think if lag is a problem they should reduce it to just the 'official' streamers and others can find a different game. Also I think if there is lag even the official streamers should man up and make the call to cover a different game because no one is going to enjoy watching a laggy game anyway. you dont have to stream LIVE to stream. the integrity of the tournaments (lag and cheating off the streams as well as things like bigt telling players what their opponents did in past matches), and avoiding drama bullshit like this, is far more important than a 15-30 minute delay. if you dont want to be spoiled dont watch the chat and dont go to websites until you're finished watching. simple as that. just say that players must submit their replays immediately after the match, and then you broadcast whichever ones you want whenever you want, you can do replays of famous players immediately after their matches and itll be essentially the same as watching the tournament live, or you can pick and choose the best matches for a different kind of entertainment value. its actually better in every single way.
sports has to be live. imagine a delayed super bowl or soccer world cup, that would just be ridiculous.
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On September 06 2010 12:22 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 11:46 deL wrote:On September 06 2010 10:01 uzrOne wrote:
It should really be up to the players wheter or not there should be streamers, this is some retarded shit.. I disagree, without spectators and fans the tourney wouldn't even be running. However, I think if lag is a problem they should reduce it to just the 'official' streamers and others can find a different game. Also I think if there is lag even the official streamers should man up and make the call to cover a different game because no one is going to enjoy watching a laggy game anyway. you dont have to stream LIVE to stream. the integrity of the tournaments (lag and cheating off the streams as well as things like bigt telling players what their opponents did in past matches), and avoiding drama bullshit like this, is far more important than a 15-30 minute delay. if you dont want to be spoiled dont watch the chat and dont go to websites until you're finished watching. simple as that. just say that players must submit their replays immediately after the match, and then you broadcast whichever ones you want whenever you want, you can do replays of famous players immediately after their matches and itll be essentially the same as watching the tournament live, or you can pick and choose the best matches for a different kind of entertainment value. its actually better in every single way.
Well I guess that the most viewers want to watch it live, and the people watching are more important than the players.
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On September 07 2010 03:40 xylos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:22 IdrA wrote:On September 06 2010 11:46 deL wrote:On September 06 2010 10:01 uzrOne wrote:
It should really be up to the players wheter or not there should be streamers, this is some retarded shit.. I disagree, without spectators and fans the tourney wouldn't even be running. However, I think if lag is a problem they should reduce it to just the 'official' streamers and others can find a different game. Also I think if there is lag even the official streamers should man up and make the call to cover a different game because no one is going to enjoy watching a laggy game anyway. you dont have to stream LIVE to stream. the integrity of the tournaments (lag and cheating off the streams as well as things like bigt telling players what their opponents did in past matches), and avoiding drama bullshit like this, is far more important than a 15-30 minute delay. if you dont want to be spoiled dont watch the chat and dont go to websites until you're finished watching. simple as that. just say that players must submit their replays immediately after the match, and then you broadcast whichever ones you want whenever you want, you can do replays of famous players immediately after their matches and itll be essentially the same as watching the tournament live, or you can pick and choose the best matches for a different kind of entertainment value. its actually better in every single way. Well I guess that the most viewers want to watch it live, and the people watching are more important than the players.
The problem is if these rules continue, big time names will leave these tournaments and therefore no one would watch. Players in my opinion are more important.
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On September 07 2010 03:54 Requiral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 03:40 xylos wrote:On September 06 2010 12:22 IdrA wrote:On September 06 2010 11:46 deL wrote:On September 06 2010 10:01 uzrOne wrote:
It should really be up to the players wheter or not there should be streamers, this is some retarded shit.. I disagree, without spectators and fans the tourney wouldn't even be running. However, I think if lag is a problem they should reduce it to just the 'official' streamers and others can find a different game. Also I think if there is lag even the official streamers should man up and make the call to cover a different game because no one is going to enjoy watching a laggy game anyway. you dont have to stream LIVE to stream. the integrity of the tournaments (lag and cheating off the streams as well as things like bigt telling players what their opponents did in past matches), and avoiding drama bullshit like this, is far more important than a 15-30 minute delay. if you dont want to be spoiled dont watch the chat and dont go to websites until you're finished watching. simple as that. just say that players must submit their replays immediately after the match, and then you broadcast whichever ones you want whenever you want, you can do replays of famous players immediately after their matches and itll be essentially the same as watching the tournament live, or you can pick and choose the best matches for a different kind of entertainment value. its actually better in every single way. Well I guess that the most viewers want to watch it live, and the people watching are more important than the players. The problem is if these rules continue, big time names will leave these tournaments and therefore no one would watch. Players in my opinion are more important.
People will watch either way. If 200 of the top players all leave 200 new ones will roll in. Look to MMA and the UFC as further proof of this theory.
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On September 06 2010 14:33 grobo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 11:55 TheDna wrote:
Very bad move by Morrow. The ban for should be way longer so he would actually learn his lesson there. Big diva move that should be punished hard. 2 wins(2weeks = 2games) at eps is prolly like 100bucks, he just won a big tournament and wont care alot.
He was told that the rules would be changed next week.. He still goes ahead and decides to be a diva about it and insta starts a final game. There was no reason for that behavior whatsoever.
I think alot of ppl will change their opinion about morrow, he already came across quite arrogant in some of the early beta interviews and just confirmed my initial thoughts about him. If anything a lot of people probably changed their opinion of morrow for the better after this, what he did was just fine. 14 casters... i thought the OP was just being hyperbole to get his point across but when i found out it was actually true i nearly choked, 14 casters is fucking ridiculous. Oh and Diva? hahaha
He didnt have to let 14 casters in lol.
This thread is so full of crap its not even funny anymore...
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On September 07 2010 03:59 TheDna wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 14:33 grobo wrote:On September 06 2010 11:55 TheDna wrote:
Very bad move by Morrow. The ban for should be way longer so he would actually learn his lesson there. Big diva move that should be punished hard. 2 wins(2weeks = 2games) at eps is prolly like 100bucks, he just won a big tournament and wont care alot.
He was told that the rules would be changed next week.. He still goes ahead and decides to be a diva about it and insta starts a final game. There was no reason for that behavior whatsoever.
I think alot of ppl will change their opinion about morrow, he already came across quite arrogant in some of the early beta interviews and just confirmed my initial thoughts about him. If anything a lot of people probably changed their opinion of morrow for the better after this, what he did was just fine. 14 casters... i thought the OP was just being hyperbole to get his point across but when i found out it was actually true i nearly choked, 14 casters is fucking ridiculous. Oh and Diva? hahaha He didnt have to let 14 casters in lol. This thread is so full of crap its not even funny anymore...
Than you get real winners like BigT who go and cry to the admins so hard that they penalize the person.
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On September 07 2010 03:59 TheDna wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 14:33 grobo wrote:On September 06 2010 11:55 TheDna wrote:
Very bad move by Morrow. The ban for should be way longer so he would actually learn his lesson there. Big diva move that should be punished hard. 2 wins(2weeks = 2games) at eps is prolly like 100bucks, he just won a big tournament and wont care alot.
He was told that the rules would be changed next week.. He still goes ahead and decides to be a diva about it and insta starts a final game. There was no reason for that behavior whatsoever.
I think alot of ppl will change their opinion about morrow, he already came across quite arrogant in some of the early beta interviews and just confirmed my initial thoughts about him. If anything a lot of people probably changed their opinion of morrow for the better after this, what he did was just fine. 14 casters... i thought the OP was just being hyperbole to get his point across but when i found out it was actually true i nearly choked, 14 casters is fucking ridiculous. Oh and Diva? hahaha He didnt have to let 14 casters in lol. This thread is so full of crap its not even funny anymore...
I watched when Morrow was playing dimaga, and in that game there most definitely was 14 casters.
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On September 07 2010 04:07 coddan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 03:59 TheDna wrote:On September 06 2010 14:33 grobo wrote:On September 06 2010 11:55 TheDna wrote:
Very bad move by Morrow. The ban for should be way longer so he would actually learn his lesson there. Big diva move that should be punished hard. 2 wins(2weeks = 2games) at eps is prolly like 100bucks, he just won a big tournament and wont care alot.
He was told that the rules would be changed next week.. He still goes ahead and decides to be a diva about it and insta starts a final game. There was no reason for that behavior whatsoever.
I think alot of ppl will change their opinion about morrow, he already came across quite arrogant in some of the early beta interviews and just confirmed my initial thoughts about him. If anything a lot of people probably changed their opinion of morrow for the better after this, what he did was just fine. 14 casters... i thought the OP was just being hyperbole to get his point across but when i found out it was actually true i nearly choked, 14 casters is fucking ridiculous. Oh and Diva? hahaha He didnt have to let 14 casters in lol. This thread is so full of crap its not even funny anymore... I watched when Morrow was playing dimaga, and in that game there most definitely was 14 casters.
Yea but he wasnt forced to have 14 casters in his games. That would be ridiculous.
But he didnt even have Take, the official cast, in one of the final games..
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On September 07 2010 04:12 TheDna wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 04:07 coddan wrote:On September 07 2010 03:59 TheDna wrote:On September 06 2010 14:33 grobo wrote:On September 06 2010 11:55 TheDna wrote:
Very bad move by Morrow. The ban for should be way longer so he would actually learn his lesson there. Big diva move that should be punished hard. 2 wins(2weeks = 2games) at eps is prolly like 100bucks, he just won a big tournament and wont care alot.
He was told that the rules would be changed next week.. He still goes ahead and decides to be a diva about it and insta starts a final game. There was no reason for that behavior whatsoever.
I think alot of ppl will change their opinion about morrow, he already came across quite arrogant in some of the early beta interviews and just confirmed my initial thoughts about him. If anything a lot of people probably changed their opinion of morrow for the better after this, what he did was just fine. 14 casters... i thought the OP was just being hyperbole to get his point across but when i found out it was actually true i nearly choked, 14 casters is fucking ridiculous. Oh and Diva? hahaha He didnt have to let 14 casters in lol. This thread is so full of crap its not even funny anymore... I watched when Morrow was playing dimaga, and in that game there most definitely was 14 casters. Yea but he wasnt forced to have 14 casters in his games. That would be ridiculous. But he didnt even have Take, the official cast, in one of the final games..
This is what caused the problem.
Either way I hope ESL EU learns from this and stops with their caster free for all. It's a really stupid idea.
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ESL just keeps getting more bad publicity. If this keeps up I think they're going to have to do something about their rules.
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On September 07 2010 03:37 Zeon0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:22 IdrA wrote:On September 06 2010 11:46 deL wrote:On September 06 2010 10:01 uzrOne wrote:
It should really be up to the players wheter or not there should be streamers, this is some retarded shit.. I disagree, without spectators and fans the tourney wouldn't even be running. However, I think if lag is a problem they should reduce it to just the 'official' streamers and others can find a different game. Also I think if there is lag even the official streamers should man up and make the call to cover a different game because no one is going to enjoy watching a laggy game anyway. you dont have to stream LIVE to stream. the integrity of the tournaments (lag and cheating off the streams as well as things like bigt telling players what their opponents did in past matches), and avoiding drama bullshit like this, is far more important than a 15-30 minute delay. if you dont want to be spoiled dont watch the chat and dont go to websites until you're finished watching. simple as that. just say that players must submit their replays immediately after the match, and then you broadcast whichever ones you want whenever you want, you can do replays of famous players immediately after their matches and itll be essentially the same as watching the tournament live, or you can pick and choose the best matches for a different kind of entertainment value. its actually better in every single way. sports has to be live. imagine a delayed super bowl or soccer world cup, that would just be ridiculous.
Imagine if watching on TV caused the players to lag out? Just as bad of analogy.
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On September 07 2010 04:25 Pufftrees wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 03:37 Zeon0 wrote:On September 06 2010 12:22 IdrA wrote:On September 06 2010 11:46 deL wrote:On September 06 2010 10:01 uzrOne wrote:
It should really be up to the players wheter or not there should be streamers, this is some retarded shit.. I disagree, without spectators and fans the tourney wouldn't even be running. However, I think if lag is a problem they should reduce it to just the 'official' streamers and others can find a different game. Also I think if there is lag even the official streamers should man up and make the call to cover a different game because no one is going to enjoy watching a laggy game anyway. you dont have to stream LIVE to stream. the integrity of the tournaments (lag and cheating off the streams as well as things like bigt telling players what their opponents did in past matches), and avoiding drama bullshit like this, is far more important than a 15-30 minute delay. if you dont want to be spoiled dont watch the chat and dont go to websites until you're finished watching. simple as that. just say that players must submit their replays immediately after the match, and then you broadcast whichever ones you want whenever you want, you can do replays of famous players immediately after their matches and itll be essentially the same as watching the tournament live, or you can pick and choose the best matches for a different kind of entertainment value. its actually better in every single way. sports has to be live. imagine a delayed super bowl or soccer world cup, that would just be ridiculous. Imagine if watching on TV caused the players to lag out? Just as bad of analogy.
imagine adbreaks at sport events. oh wait
entertainment is more important than the sports^^
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On September 07 2010 05:21 Zeon0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 04:25 Pufftrees wrote:On September 07 2010 03:37 Zeon0 wrote:On September 06 2010 12:22 IdrA wrote:On September 06 2010 11:46 deL wrote:On September 06 2010 10:01 uzrOne wrote:
It should really be up to the players wheter or not there should be streamers, this is some retarded shit.. I disagree, without spectators and fans the tourney wouldn't even be running. However, I think if lag is a problem they should reduce it to just the 'official' streamers and others can find a different game. Also I think if there is lag even the official streamers should man up and make the call to cover a different game because no one is going to enjoy watching a laggy game anyway. you dont have to stream LIVE to stream. the integrity of the tournaments (lag and cheating off the streams as well as things like bigt telling players what their opponents did in past matches), and avoiding drama bullshit like this, is far more important than a 15-30 minute delay. if you dont want to be spoiled dont watch the chat and dont go to websites until you're finished watching. simple as that. just say that players must submit their replays immediately after the match, and then you broadcast whichever ones you want whenever you want, you can do replays of famous players immediately after their matches and itll be essentially the same as watching the tournament live, or you can pick and choose the best matches for a different kind of entertainment value. its actually better in every single way. sports has to be live. imagine a delayed super bowl or soccer world cup, that would just be ridiculous. Imagine if watching on TV caused the players to lag out? Just as bad of analogy. imagine adbreaks at sport events. oh wait entertainment is more important than the sports^^
How do you manage to compare adbreaks to lag?
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On September 07 2010 03:37 Zeon0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:22 IdrA wrote:On September 06 2010 11:46 deL wrote:On September 06 2010 10:01 uzrOne wrote:
It should really be up to the players wheter or not there should be streamers, this is some retarded shit.. I disagree, without spectators and fans the tourney wouldn't even be running. However, I think if lag is a problem they should reduce it to just the 'official' streamers and others can find a different game. Also I think if there is lag even the official streamers should man up and make the call to cover a different game because no one is going to enjoy watching a laggy game anyway. you dont have to stream LIVE to stream. the integrity of the tournaments (lag and cheating off the streams as well as things like bigt telling players what their opponents did in past matches), and avoiding drama bullshit like this, is far more important than a 15-30 minute delay. if you dont want to be spoiled dont watch the chat and dont go to websites until you're finished watching. simple as that. just say that players must submit their replays immediately after the match, and then you broadcast whichever ones you want whenever you want, you can do replays of famous players immediately after their matches and itll be essentially the same as watching the tournament live, or you can pick and choose the best matches for a different kind of entertainment value. its actually better in every single way. sports has to be live. imagine a delayed super bowl or soccer world cup, that would just be ridiculous.
Cause you can cheat off the stream at the super bowl?
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lag is fcking terrible. morrow should have invited official casters only tho
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Kinda sad to see people using this as another outlet to express their hate for BigT. Did he murder one of your family members? I think the grudge has gone on long enough.
Anyway. Morrow brought a lot of this on himself by whispering BigT and we brought a lot of this on ourselves for giving him the huge ego that led to it.
We are all to blame.
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1. You don't need 14 people casting the game. Let the hosts cast it. Others can re-stream it.
2. Tournament organizers should be streaming replays to improve the lag.
I can understand Morrow's frustration.
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On September 07 2010 03:40 xylos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:22 IdrA wrote:On September 06 2010 11:46 deL wrote:On September 06 2010 10:01 uzrOne wrote:
It should really be up to the players wheter or not there should be streamers, this is some retarded shit.. I disagree, without spectators and fans the tourney wouldn't even be running. However, I think if lag is a problem they should reduce it to just the 'official' streamers and others can find a different game. Also I think if there is lag even the official streamers should man up and make the call to cover a different game because no one is going to enjoy watching a laggy game anyway. you dont have to stream LIVE to stream. the integrity of the tournaments (lag and cheating off the streams as well as things like bigt telling players what their opponents did in past matches), and avoiding drama bullshit like this, is far more important than a 15-30 minute delay. if you dont want to be spoiled dont watch the chat and dont go to websites until you're finished watching. simple as that. just say that players must submit their replays immediately after the match, and then you broadcast whichever ones you want whenever you want, you can do replays of famous players immediately after their matches and itll be essentially the same as watching the tournament live, or you can pick and choose the best matches for a different kind of entertainment value. its actually better in every single way. Well I guess that the most viewers want to watch it live, and the people watching are more important than the players.
you dont need 14 different streamers for people to have a live watching experience.
pretty much limitless people can watch just ONE streamer doing ONE stream, anything else is pretty much overkill and if a player doesn't want to deal with lag it should always be his choice.
Come to think of it the player shouldn't have to say anything at all, any observer it a pro match should have the common courtesy to leave or not join at all if they have any reason to believe they may be affecting the performance of the game. If they don't then they are just selfish assholes and shouldn't ever be allowed to observe pro matches period.
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pretty much limitless people can watch just ONE streamer doing ONE stream, anything else is pretty much overkill and if a player doesn't want to deal with lag it should always be his choice.
Or if he does not like that rule he should aways not play the cup then.
Oh id love the esl to change the rule so that only esl is allowed. Couldn't possibly withstand my mind thinking about how people will cry again what a dickish company esl is for only allowing their own casters and streamers with such a low quality. <3
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At the end of the day Blizzard needs to take some blame for this: they knew in advance that live casting occurs in eSports and should have had a solution in place (ie something akin to WaaaaghTV). There is no reason why BNET 2.0 should not have come with tournament features that facilitated live spectating or replay casting, yet here we are in 2010 and we have less to work with than the old BW (which at least wasn't region-locked).
For those who state that 14 casters are too much, I would agree except the situation in the EU is that people want to hear the games cast in their own language, of which there are many - German, English, French, Dutch, Spanish, Swedish, etc. There are also clear caster preferences between different communities. Thus, you need multiple casters and while you can always re-stream someone else's cast, that's not ideal because casters typically want to be able to move the camera themselves.
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Its stupid that you need to have so many in the games, and its good they are changing it, shouldnt have to let every tom dick and harry in!!!
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On September 07 2010 03:37 Zeon0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:22 IdrA wrote:On September 06 2010 11:46 deL wrote:On September 06 2010 10:01 uzrOne wrote:
It should really be up to the players wheter or not there should be streamers, this is some retarded shit.. I disagree, without spectators and fans the tourney wouldn't even be running. However, I think if lag is a problem they should reduce it to just the 'official' streamers and others can find a different game. Also I think if there is lag even the official streamers should man up and make the call to cover a different game because no one is going to enjoy watching a laggy game anyway. you dont have to stream LIVE to stream. the integrity of the tournaments (lag and cheating off the streams as well as things like bigt telling players what their opponents did in past matches), and avoiding drama bullshit like this, is far more important than a 15-30 minute delay. if you dont want to be spoiled dont watch the chat and dont go to websites until you're finished watching. simple as that. just say that players must submit their replays immediately after the match, and then you broadcast whichever ones you want whenever you want, you can do replays of famous players immediately after their matches and itll be essentially the same as watching the tournament live, or you can pick and choose the best matches for a different kind of entertainment value. its actually better in every single way. sports has to be live. imagine a delayed super bowl or soccer world cup, that would just be ridiculous.
lol, this is one of the worst analogies of all time. The super bowl/world cup don't have to worry about lag/latency issues with their streams, potential cheating, etc. There is no reason for it not to be live. While I am neutral about what idra said you should come up with a relevant argument.
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allow 2 official casters, 1 must be english. stream games live. add a bit more delay.
(admins scout for strange moves, that could be caused by having stream info)
tbh, if you watch "sports" you want to see it live! it's just so much more exciting, even tho it shouldnt make a difference... anyways, people dont act rational all the time!
And ofc you have to respect the pro players, but without the fans they wouldn't earn any money. no interest in a sport, no money, no "pros". so please show some respect for your fans as well
gl hf
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*Edit* Wrong thread
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how can anyone really be favouring replaycasts over livestreams? that's just pathetic.
easy way to solve the problem: get licensed streamer, limit them to one per major language per game(english, french, german, maybe russian), have 4 ppl obs the game, enjoy live and lagg-free games.
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What is needed is a proxy technology, where a mirror match is hosted next to the actual match, with a buffer for storing game data so that the proxy match is delayed by a set amount of minutes.
Then, only game admins/referees would have to watch the actual game, while any commentators or other observers would connect to the proxy match. The mirror match would act like any other observer on the main match.
+ Show Spoiler +
Also, it wouldn't really be far fetched to think of a kind of dedicated spectating server software that would allow thousands and thousands of viewers to connect to the proxy server with their game client, without interfering with the actual match.
Edit:
All hypothetical, I know. But the technology in itself is really not rocket science.
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On September 07 2010 22:40 Ghad wrote:What is needed is a proxy technology, where a mirror match is hosted next to the actual match, with a buffer for storing game data so that the proxy match is delayed by a set amount of minutes. Then, only game admins/referees would have to watch the actual game, while any commentators or other observers would connect to the proxy match. Also, it wouldn't really be far fetched to think of a kind of dedicated spectating server software that would allow thousands and thousands of viewers to connect to the proxy server with their game client, without interfering with the actual match. Edit: All hypothetical, I know. But the technology in itself is really not rocket science.
We've had this since 2001, it's called HLTV
Blizzard is just completely out of touch. I wonder if they ever look at what other companies are doing?
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Until there's a technical solution to this, casters should just cast replays that the players sent in from the tournament. The cast could start at pretty much the same time, they could start casting as soon as the first game was finished, and then they'd get more replays as they were casting and they would never run out). There is practically no difference in what the viewers are getting but we are immune to lag from observers and cheating.
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Personally i NEVER liked morrow after he was harassing Chill , hes a short tempered kid which i do not approve of
for all those who are wondering. i like idra
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On September 07 2010 23:11 Vorla wrote:
Until there's a technical solution to this, casters should just cast replays that the players sent in from the tournament. The cast could start at pretty much the same time, they could start casting as soon as the first game was finished, and then they'd get more replays as they were casting and they would never run out). There is practically no difference in what the viewers are getting but we are immune to lag from observers and cheating.
But what if the games are of varying length? Like a one hour epic macro battle followed by a 6pool? theyd have to cast once they have ALL the replays otherwise some people would just be twiddling their thumbs (if the caster were live streaming)
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EPT
