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On August 30 2010 03:09 Skvid wrote:
I just love the fact that in the past 5 games (i play terran) 2 of the players said something in the lines "im glad terran nerf is comming, they are so imbalanced"
The funny part is that i didn't used tanks, reapers or battlecruisers in those games, neither did i made a fast bunker rush/contain.
But I bet you used Marauders
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On August 30 2010 06:57 Batch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 06:46 L0thar wrote:
The more I think about it the more I'm baffled with the Battlecruiser nerf.
The reaper nerf was definitely needed. They were ridiculous vs zerg early game.
The tank nerf could be needed too. They were used pretty often in TvZ.
But Battlecruiser? What the fuck Blizzard? What the fuck??
Is there anybody who was owned by BCs and though it was unfair? Is there anybody who used BC and think "damn, those thing are soo powerful!". Is there even anybody who uses BC at all?
I have no idea what is Blizzard doing here. Were some of their testers owned in FFA or what? What's next, are they going to nerf Scout in BW too?
Seriously could somebody explain this to me? Anybody? At least as zerg I have had problems with battlecruisers when having a ground only force. Before the neural parasite nerf you could use infestors to counter them but know hydras are the only option and they are far from a cost effective counter against battlecruisers. I think the nerf is a good one, balance wise.
C'mon, maybe having only ground force isn't the best idea? BCs are the highest terran tier by far and they are also the most expensive. I would think they deserve more drastic reaction from your opponent than "lolzwut BCs, let's make more hydras/stalkers". Try to play terran and go ground only army against Broodlords and you will cry.
BCs are units with no identity. They have high HP, but are slow like hell. They do ok against ground, ok against air, but nothing special. They are basically the easiest to counter high level unit. They already had no real place in Terran army. And now they are nerfing them?
If Blizzard wanted to give BC some role, they should lower their AtA damage and actually increase the AtG. They would be easier to counter (by air), but would actually do well against damn second tier unit.
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On August 30 2010 07:28 ckw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 03:09 Skvid wrote:
I just love the fact that in the past 5 games (i play terran) 2 of the players said something in the lines "im glad terran nerf is comming, they are so imbalanced"
The funny part is that i didn't used tanks, reapers or battlecruisers in those games, neither did i made a fast bunker rush/contain.
But I bet you used Marauders
i lold
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The BC nerf was because protoss has no way to deal with them.
Stalkers, HT's don't work.
And Void Rays are a joke vs them  .
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On August 30 2010 05:13 st3roids wrote:
Reaper nerf means that reapers actually getting their dmg or range reduced.
There is no reaper nerf and as many said the problems with reapers is that outrun speedlings and every other zerg unit , o insane dmg both to buildings and light units and after that a transition to marauder to push vs roaches is way too easy.
nothing from the above will change , good terran layers dont rush with 1 reaper anyway they wait a bit and rush with several , now theyll build one more rax and do the same thing nothing changes in the long run.
That is exactly it no good terran pushes out with just 1 reaper Lets assume you push out with 10 just for the sake of an example. The first one gets built of your starting rax so you have 9 more to build for your first push so you throw down 2 more raxes so you can now build them 3 at a time. (3 per rax) So for you to accumulate your 10 reapers it will not take 5secs longer to get them but 15sec this may not seem like much but it could be enough for the zerg to let a second batch of roaches finish or give his roach speed upgrade more time to finish. Or what not.
A reason that if the terran goes reapers that you have to wait is you want your speed upgrade to finish or else speed zerglings will own you
I don't think it will make much of a difference. If they had increased the build time by possibly 7-10sec we might notice something more significant.
But I don't think blizzard wants to make the reaper completely useless.
Imo lowering the reapers range by .5 or increasing the queens ground range by .5 would have been better without changing too much as reapers would still outrange them but chances are the queen would at least get a hit in more often.
On August 30 2010 07:31 -Simplicity- wrote:The BC nerf was because protoss has no way to deal with them. Stalkers, HT's don't work. And Void Rays are a joke vs them .
Voidrays and carriers work just fine vs bc's if the bc's don't yamato. That's what the templar are for and if they had enough enegy for yamato well then that's at least 125 damage which is a great start.
"but I have to tech to carriers" yea well he obviously had to tech to bc's. I think this change was designed to help the zerg more than the toss.
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On August 30 2010 06:46 L0thar wrote:
Is there anybody who was owned by BCs and though it was unfair? Is there anybody who used BC and think "damn, those thing are soo powerful!". Is there even anybody who uses BC at all?
I played some 3v3s with noob (haven't played RTS before) friends, so I decide to use a new race (I usually play toss) and go a stupid build - rush battlecruisers. I would go gas before rax, then doubleport with 4 banshees for some harass then straight into BATTLECRUISER OPERATIONAL. Much to my surprise, it worked many times and we got placed in gold league.
While I agree that cattlebruisers atm rip stuff up once you get 5 or 6 of them (not very hard when you're turtling), I still don't support this nerf - because that's not how you're supposed to kill them. You're supposed to outmanouvre them, a much more interesting and strategic counter. There was one game in BW, I think it was Flash vs (Hwasin?) where Flash when BCs and the other dude just ran around his BCs and killed all the expansions with his Gols, even though the BCs had torn up his main. That game was awesome.
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On August 30 2010 07:23 Defrag wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 05:50 Opinion wrote:On August 30 2010 05:45 Bull-Demon wrote:On August 30 2010 05:28 DTown wrote:On August 30 2010 05:23 Bull-Demon wrote:
How do people say nothing will change when its mathematically proven it will. The people saying nothing will change don't mean literally nothing will change, they just mean that the metagame/dominant strategies/current balance situation won't significantly change... I disagree. I think the tank change will alter ZvT significantly. Specifically late game mech and mmm with tank support. Pre patch 1.1 Numbers.Zero Upgrades, on creep, Attack move zero micro 50 Lings vs 4 siege tanks. = 14 Lings survive, all tanks dead. 18 hydras vs 4 siege tanks. = 12 surviving hydras, all tanks dead. Post 1.1 Numbers.50 lings vs 4 siege tanks. = 20 lings survive, all tanks dead. 18 hydras vs 4 siege tanks. = 13 surviving hydras, all tanks dead. I consider Lings to be significantly more effective against tanks after 1.1 How is the difference possible in zerglings numbers when they are getting 1 shooted without upgrades anyway? Nothing changes for tanks vs lings, so the change in outcome is not possible.
wont the splash from the tanks not 1 shot the other lings now though? I believe thats what the difference is. I would like to see the outcomes with +1 armor...
The battlecruiser nerf seems really weird to me too... I am zerg, and have been crying for months about terran imba, forever.... but a BC nerf? Have they been being abused anywhere? I haven't seen it... the amount of resources a terran would even need to sink into his production, and the units to mass a decent amount is a joke, if he gets that many out, and you havn't gotten a counter for them, you just suck, or were already in a really bad position.
I am not sure how protoss fairs against them, but I remember a TLO game where the protoss player reacted to BC's AFTER they were out and massed with starting his own void ray army, and then raped the BC's... has something changed since then?
The ultra nerf... I feel its the same way as the BC nerf, if you cant scout the zerg in the time it takes them to throw down the hive, ultra cavern, research chitinous plating, and then build the ultras, and the only counter you really need is tier 1.5 mass marauders.... well thats your bad.
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i agree with lanuus,
BC's are suppose to be the air version of siege tank. they are suppose to be strong but immobile. and in particular, BC is suppose to wreck ground units. if you can just build tier 1 ground units like stalker and a-move against BC's (tier 3) head on, then what the hell is the pt?
Z and T has ez solution to the BC problem ofc. if you didnt get vikings or corruptors against them then ur just beyond helpless.
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On August 30 2010 07:30 jambam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 07:28 ckw wrote:On August 30 2010 03:09 Skvid wrote:
I just love the fact that in the past 5 games (i play terran) 2 of the players said something in the lines "im glad terran nerf is comming, they are so imbalanced"
The funny part is that i didn't used tanks, reapers or battlecruisers in those games, neither did i made a fast bunker rush/contain.
But I bet you used Marauders i lold
post that is just as bad as the post you quoted.
battle.net/forums is where you belong.
On August 30 2010 07:31 -Simplicity- wrote:The BC nerf was because protoss has no way to deal with them. Stalkers, HT's don't work. And Void Rays are a joke vs them .
simply not true.
stalkers/voidray + HT does perfectly fine vs bcs.
i really dont see the problem at all. will be fun when they notice evry T will play bio in evry matchup trying to end the game asap and then they dont know what to change.
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@BeMannerDuPenner,
agree on BC point. i can not see how stalker/HT lose against BC. those are very standard units in the P army and they totally wreck slow moving armored units.
i can see how voidray is hard if you don't have sufficient numbers since BC can yamato half of your VR's
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On August 30 2010 07:58 dybydx wrote:
@BeMannerDuPenner,
agree on BC point. i can not see how stalker/HT lose against BC. those are very standard units in the P army and they totally wreck slow moving armored units.
i can see how voidray is hard if you don't have sufficient numbers since BC can yamato half of your VR's
Point defense drone...and also Templar have to waste time dealing with Ravens/PDDs as well as BCS
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On August 30 2010 07:23 Defrag wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 05:50 Opinion wrote:On August 30 2010 05:45 Bull-Demon wrote:On August 30 2010 05:28 DTown wrote:On August 30 2010 05:23 Bull-Demon wrote:
How do people say nothing will change when its mathematically proven it will. The people saying nothing will change don't mean literally nothing will change, they just mean that the metagame/dominant strategies/current balance situation won't significantly change... I disagree. I think the tank change will alter ZvT significantly. Specifically late game mech and mmm with tank support. Pre patch 1.1 Numbers.Zero Upgrades, on creep, Attack move zero micro 50 Lings vs 4 siege tanks. = 14 Lings survive, all tanks dead. 18 hydras vs 4 siege tanks. = 12 surviving hydras, all tanks dead. Post 1.1 Numbers.50 lings vs 4 siege tanks. = 20 lings survive, all tanks dead. 18 hydras vs 4 siege tanks. = 13 surviving hydras, all tanks dead. I consider Lings to be significantly more effective against tanks after 1.1 How is the difference possible in zerglings numbers when they are getting 1 shooted without upgrades anyway? Nothing changes for tanks vs lings, so the change in outcome is not possible.
That is a good question, you should go test it yourself.
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Hopefully the patch is implemented Tuesday (and I hope it doesn't take TOO long...I estimate 2pm EST (like the other times...)
I also hope they will now do something with maras (after seeing the aftermath of this post)...but I highly doubt it will happen this patch...too little time.
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On August 30 2010 08:05 Opinion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 07:23 Defrag wrote:On August 30 2010 05:50 Opinion wrote:On August 30 2010 05:45 Bull-Demon wrote:On August 30 2010 05:28 DTown wrote:On August 30 2010 05:23 Bull-Demon wrote:
How do people say nothing will change when its mathematically proven it will. The people saying nothing will change don't mean literally nothing will change, they just mean that the metagame/dominant strategies/current balance situation won't significantly change... I disagree. I think the tank change will alter ZvT significantly. Specifically late game mech and mmm with tank support. Pre patch 1.1 Numbers.Zero Upgrades, on creep, Attack move zero micro 50 Lings vs 4 siege tanks. = 14 Lings survive, all tanks dead. 18 hydras vs 4 siege tanks. = 12 surviving hydras, all tanks dead. Post 1.1 Numbers.50 lings vs 4 siege tanks. = 20 lings survive, all tanks dead. 18 hydras vs 4 siege tanks. = 13 surviving hydras, all tanks dead. I consider Lings to be significantly more effective against tanks after 1.1 How is the difference possible in zerglings numbers when they are getting 1 shooted without upgrades anyway? Nothing changes for tanks vs lings, so the change in outcome is not possible. That is a good question, you should go test it yourself.
Just as I said above.... wont the splash from the tanks not 1 shot the lings anymore?
edit: also, shouldnt we be doing this test more than once? try it with lings pre 1.1 and post 1.1 at least a FEW times to see if maybe it was just random? See how much the ling numbers change per attempt? (if at all?)
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On August 30 2010 03:09 Skvid wrote:
I just love the fact that in the past 5 games (i play terran) 2 of the players said something in the lines "im glad terran nerf is comming, they are so imbalanced"
The funny part is that i didn't used tanks, reapers or battlecruisers in those games, neither did i made a fast bunker rush/contain.
Umm, so? It's enough with the threat of reapers to make your race stronger. It's not like you actually have to use them.
Imagine a superunit that insta-killed everything except roaches. The zerg goes early roaches of course and you roll him over with marauders. He cries imba and you laugh him in the face saying "I didn't even use the superunit lololol."
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It was about freaking time for those tanks to stop one shot killing my blings.Tnx
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On August 30 2010 07:28 ckw wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 03:09 Skvid wrote:
I just love the fact that in the past 5 games (i play terran) 2 of the players said something in the lines "im glad terran nerf is comming, they are so imbalanced"
The funny part is that i didn't used tanks, reapers or battlecruisers in those games, neither did i made a fast bunker rush/contain.
But I bet you used Marauders
/signed
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The BC nerf is a bit surprising, but I think I see the logic behind it. They really want you to use Yamato Cannon, and they want you to use BC's against high-health units rather than to faceroll over light ground units.
I play Toss and the nerf list doesn't really surprise me. It seems pretty conservative. Five seconds here and there, a drastic change to Siege Tanks, and a little tweak to Ultras. I'd still like to see some love for the Carrier and the Archon, and then there's the mothership... Also, Zerg's Tier 1 might need some work, and I despise Marauders and don't trust myself to objectively commentate on them.
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On August 30 2010 08:13 Kratisto wrote:
The BC nerf is a bit surprising, but I think I see the logic behind it. They really want you to use Yamato Cannon, and they want you to use BC's against high-health units rather than to faceroll over light ground units.
I play Toss and the nerf list doesn't really surprise me. It seems pretty conservative. Five seconds here and there, a drastic change to Siege Tanks, and a little tweak to Ultras. I'd still like to see some love for the Carrier and the Archon, and then there's the mothership... Also, Zerg's Tier 1 might need some work, and I despise Marauders and don't trust myself to objectively commentate on them.
Good post actually, agree with everything you said (even the bias on Marauders kekeke.)
I do think Zerg tier 1 units lose efficiency fast, while the can go toe to toe against bio a bit, when Medivacs hit the field it's all hell as a Zerg player. The heal is just too fast! With enough medivacs a Terran player can keep a ton of Marauders alive, even against banelings!
I've had some macro games go where the Terran player went BC's secretly ( the turtle be heavy ) and pretty much crushed all my units. Hydras aren't very strong vs BC's ( especially when there are more then 4 BC's, real problem) and he just proceeded to yamato my corrupters. Fun game though :D
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On August 30 2010 08:13 Kratisto wrote:
The BC nerf is a bit surprising, but I think I see the logic behind it. They really want you to use Yamato Cannon, and they want you to use BC's against high-health units rather than to faceroll over light ground units.
I play Toss and the nerf list doesn't really surprise me. It seems pretty conservative. Five seconds here and there, a drastic change to Siege Tanks, and a little tweak to Ultras. I'd still like to see some love for the Carrier and the Archon, and then there's the mothership... Also, Zerg's Tier 1 might need some work, and I despise Marauders and don't trust myself to objectively commentate on them.
Have to agree it is rather conservative.
The average player recommendation ranges from completely removing a unit from the game, nerfing damage by 50% or more, creation of new buildings and units to counter existing units and entire redesign of macro and micro components.
The actual patches are 5 seconds here and there and some redistribution of damage modifiers.
But the community still overreacts and becomes inconsolable.
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EPT
