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On August 30 2010 00:29 Grummler wrote:
Why (nearly) everbody thinks to know better than blizzard about balancing their game? Of course we had many (some) good posts regarding the balance of sc2 and blizzard already made several mistakes, but right now 99% of non-opening posts talking about balance are totally rubbish.
Example: "Bio is balanced in tvz? LOL. I hope you are joking."
I mean, seriously, how stupid can a post be? What does the poster want to tell me? I am getting so sick of those "omg lolol, tvp is freewin cuzz of maraudrzz"- kind of posts.
Please note that i am not talking about the balance itself, but solely about the quality of posts, which has drastically decreased since the release of sc2.
Dont you think that I have better things to do than to reiterate something that has been discussed TO DEATH on the forums? I've read all the posts regarding TvZ balance, watched VODs and stuff and do agree that zerg early game is skewed too much towards the terran. Yes, I consider the reaper to be considered bio. Marauders deserve a nerf but thats my opinion.
Yea, I posted in a rush, so sue me. But you come to a point where all you want to do is troll the troll. And those "omg lolol, tvp is freewin cuzz of maraudrzz"- kind of posts are called trolling and if its making you mad, then all I've got to say is, welcome to the internet.
A long enough essay for you?
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It's hard to believe people would be sad enough to troll by complaining about marauders. I don't think that trolling is the issue.
Do what you'd like Blizzard. If your first patch doesn't help the game enough, then some future ones will.
This thread isn't very constructive, it's a maelstrom of uneducated guesses of what the game will be like, or is like, from us newbies.
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On August 30 2010 00:55 Crissaegrim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 00:29 Grummler wrote:
Why (nearly) everbody thinks to know better than blizzard about balancing their game? Of course we had many (some) good posts regarding the balance of sc2 and blizzard already made several mistakes, but right now 99% of non-opening posts talking about balance are totally rubbish.
Example: "Bio is balanced in tvz? LOL. I hope you are joking."
I mean, seriously, how stupid can a post be? What does the poster want to tell me? I am getting so sick of those "omg lolol, tvp is freewin cuzz of maraudrzz"- kind of posts.
Please note that i am not talking about the balance itself, but solely about the quality of posts, which has drastically decreased since the release of sc2. Dont you think that I have better things to do than to reiterate something that has been discussed TO DEATH on the forums? I've read all the posts regarding TvZ balance, watched VODs and stuff and do agree that zerg early game is skewed too much towards the terran. Yes, I consider the reaper to be considered bio. Marauders deserve a nerf but thats my opinion. Yea, I posted in a rush, so sue me. But you come to a point where all you want to do is troll the troll. And those "omg lolol, tvp is freewin cuzz of maraudrzz"- kind of posts are called trolling and if its making you mad, then all I've got to say is, welcome to the internet. A long enough essay for you?
So, whats your point? You "read all posts regarding TvZ balance, watched VODs and stuff" so you are allowed to troll? By the way, i hope you also played a tvz every now and then yourself. Helps a lot understanding balance.
Oh, and i dont know about your school system, but an essay is actually a little bit longer. Also i am going to ignore further posts from you.
+ Show Spoiler +
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I agree with Blizzard on nerfing siege tanks. They counter every zerg ground unit. In my opinion, the biggest problem with ZvT is the immense difficulty of attacking a base. Missile turrets are "Simply too powerful for the cost", as Blizzard would say, so using mutalisks are very hard. Siege tanks destroy everything up to ultralisks, and they do a lot of damage agains them,too. Brood lords, however, are good for attacking bases, and we all know how easy it is to get brood lords, right?
The zealot nerf feels reasonable, but not really that needed, in my opinion.
Reaper nerf is the best thing ever. 'nuff said.
Battlecruiser nerf really only helps TvT balance.
Ultralisk nerf isn't that big of a deal, as they are now better against wall-ins, and can hit stuff behind the wall, which is good. Ultras really should get another upgrade. Anything.
Just my 2 cents.
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On August 29 2010 18:35 Jaug wrote:
Terrans barley use tanks with MMM. When they do the games are usually more even (at least vs protoss).
I watched bratOKs stream yesterday and he made medivac marine marauder, some ghost. Every game every matchup. I guess he is happy with patch but I just think it's boring to force every terran player to 7rax.
Force? You think BratOK's playstyle is the only viable one?
Terrans have tons of options and its pretty irritating that they can win 20+ minute games with the majority of the work being done by T1 and 1.5 units.
You don't see armies of strictly Roach+Zergling or Zealot+Stalker sticking around for 20 minutes.
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They don't win it with T1 and 1.5, they have to support those units*. The marine/marauder remains the core, but medivacs & ghosts are crucial additions if you want to win. Toss aren't that different in that Zealots, and Stalkers to a lesser degree, remain a core component of their army throughout.
*well, you shouldn't be dying to pure mm.
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Has anyone actually TESTED the tank change?
I'm fairly confident it would take less time to open the editor, change the numbers and do some damage reports then it would to type some of these five paragraph temper tantrums.
I made the changes in about 3 minutes but i have no fraps or desire to create Youtube videos displaying the actual changes for you.
But for those Forum crusaders trying to prove your hyperbole, just go to the editor, make the changes, post a video and PROVE that "tanks will be 100% broken and will no longer be used".
Blizzard gave you a free theorycraft tester, go use it...
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@Opinion
would you plz sum up what you have experienced so far, for example with lings and Hyds vs tanks?
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On August 30 2010 02:07 ch4ppi wrote:
@Opinion
would you plz sum up what you have experienced so far, for example with lings and Hyds vs tanks?
Lol, reminds me of the story of the cat and the mice and the bell.
The mice are all scared because they're constantly getting eaten by a cat. The problem is that they can't tell when the cat is near, so they don't have any warning before the cat attacks.
So then one of the mice has a brilliant idea. One mouse just has to climb onto the cats back and tie a bell to it. The mice all agree, it's a brilliant idea that will save millions of mousey lives.
But there is a problem. The mouse that goes to volunteer to tie the bell around the cats neck, will most likely get eaten. None of the mice volunteer.
If you're going to complain that people arguing over these changes aren't making a test, then you should at least make a test yourself. Otherwise you're being hypocrtical.
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On August 28 2010 05:00 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 04:53 Psychlone wrote:
All good. Thanks Blizz.
Issues resolved :
Strenght of Protoss All-in Gate pushes v All
Strenght of Mass Reaper v Zerg
Rediculousness of Tanks even in small numbers as a support (who needs Medivacs when you got Tanks?)
Absurd uselessness of Ultras against PF and depot/turret lines (See Idra vs Drewbie on Kulas)
And about the 6-pool rush becoming too strong vs Toss, you people are just talking through your hats.
Here are the numbers:
Gateway + Chrono-boosted zealot now :
65 + 24.75 = 89.75 secs
After patch :
65 + 28.5 = 93.5 secs
That's 3,75 secs... Just send your scout 1 food earlier. Or if you're really that upset, open with Forge 45 + Cannon 40 = 85 secs.
That's almost 5 seconds more than what you have now. It's perfectly safe. Chrono Boost lasts 20 seconds and increases production speed by 50%. Since the added amount (50%) is 1/3 of the new total (150%), this means all Chrono Boost does is knock 6.66 seconds off whatever is being made, which is where the flaw in your maths lies. Gateway + Chrono boosted Zealot now: 65 + (33 - 6.66) = 91.33 seconds After patch: 65 + (38 - 6.66) = 96.33 seconds Chrono Boost isn't some magic speed boost that makes everything magical and fast, all it does is knock 6.66 seconds off whatever is being made.
Wow, no.
CB lasts 20s, it doesn't "pack" 20s of production.
Anything that is built in more than 30s get a 10s cut production time.
Meaning a 1-cb zealot is currently built in 23s (22s if you use/waste a second CB)
And will be built in 28s (25,33s if you use/waste a second CB)
But it wouldn't be a waste imo, since you should have an otehr zealot in the queue.
The guy you quote was wrong but still close to real numbers than you.
And this is not consider the faster coefficient of ladder.
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On August 30 2010 01:48 Opinion wrote:Has anyone actually TESTED the tank change?+ Show Spoiler [....] +
I'm fairly confident it would take less time to open the editor, change the numbers and do some damage reports then it would to type some of these five paragraph temper tantrums.
I made the changes in about 3 minutes but i have no fraps or desire to create Youtube videos displaying the actual changes for you.
But for those Forum crusaders trying to prove your hyperbole, just go to the editor, make the changes, post a video and PROVE that "tanks will be 100% broken and will no longer be used".
Blizzard gave you a free theorycraft tester, go use it...
I agree with your sentiment. But to properly test a change via a custom map you will need a big pool of players willing to test with the custom map to see how balance is affected. Playing with a clan of perhaps 15 people, simply will not be trustworthy for drawing any conclusions.
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I just love the fact that in the past 5 games (i play terran) 2 of the players said something in the lines "im glad terran nerf is comming, they are so imbalanced"
The funny part is that i didn't used tanks, reapers or battlecruisers in those games, neither did i made a fast bunker rush/contain.
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On August 29 2010 18:36 terranghost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 18:27 Ownos wrote:On August 29 2010 17:57 terranghost wrote:On August 29 2010 14:42 MythicalMage wrote:On August 29 2010 14:25 DTown wrote:On August 29 2010 14:08 MythicalMage wrote:
I HATE the tank change. I literally can't think of a scenario when I want tanks over marauders or higher tech (banshees, ravens, etc.)
EDIT: This isn't a balance complaint. This is a stylistic complaint, since they're taking out the core of the Terran army, currently. No, pretty sure your comment is still a balance complaint. Proven by you insisting that Blizzard is "taking out the core of the Terran army" when they are just modifying the role of an over-powered unit that was causing a lot of problems to make the game more strategically interesting. No, that's a style complaint. The game will be even more balanced, and I don't argue that. It just feels like this core unit is now useless. You can divide the playstyles of Terran into two categories: With tanks and without tanks. If you thought you saw a lot of reaper play in tournaments before, now it's pretty much the only option, as transitioning to tanks isn't really worth it anymore. So my point is this. They aren't "modifying a role." They're making a strong unit close to useless. It'll be like back when beta started and no one used tanks. They might as well bring back the super roach. Regardless, it doesn't effect balance negatively, just several entire playstyles. Core unit useless...... Lets go over the units this will affect. All armored units will take the same damage. This includes: roach, stalker, immortal, ultra, infestor, marauder, tanks, thors, vikings, and collosus. Therefore the units this " nerf" will affect are the following: sentry (which will still die in 2 hits [splash]), templar (same as sentry), Dt (usually die really fast if you can see them), zergling (will still die in 1 hit), baneling (see zergling), marine (see zergling), and reaper (see zergling). Other units affected (quite possibly the only ones the change will affect) Hydra, ghost, zealot. These are the only units that will need to take a noticeably larger amount of hits to kill than previously was needed. How is this making the tank useless before tanks reached critical mass you wanted hellions for the zealots. Ghosts won't work to well unless you are trying pdds or trying to nuke advance but if your ghost can be attacked well you already did something wrong (and news flash how can a mirror match be imba in the first place not that anyone has said this yet). Hydra this will probably be the only unit significantly affected by said change. You're math is awful for 1 thing. Sentries will die to a direct tank shot in 3 hits. A unit surviving an extra shot or two not a big deal? It's a huge deal. What the heck are those armor/weapon upgrades for in the game? Do you not take them because a lot of them only allow you to kill some units in 1 less shot or no change at all (most notably weapons level 1 for zealots to 2 shot lings). Then there is the reduced splash damage as well. 35 splashed is not quite as good as 50 splashed. Everyone saying terran will just use MMM more. Have you thought that terrans use tanks along with MMM also? If they use nothing but MMM and no tanks that's actually easier for me to deal with. read the []'s. 2 50 damage attacks will kill a sentry but so will 2 35 damage attacks when the unit has been splashed. If that amount of damage made such a big deal then why was a nerf needed in the first place just lower the max damage down to 45 or something I mean we noticed such a big change when it was lowered from 60 to 50. You are also missing the overall point. Even if there is no splash and the sentry manages to survive another hit. It will not be a decideing unit in the battle unless your mix is not mech so if I am going bio mech then yes it will have a big deal but chances are if my tank numbers are that limited then my tanks have better things to shoot at. My list still stands on the 3 units that will be most affected by this change. zealot, ghost, and hydra. (I say most affected I did not say game changing) As the terrans will most likely already have hellions to deal with lots. Ghost well that means you are in a mirror match and how the hell is a mirror match not balanced I mean you can both build the same freaking thing. Hydras will be able to deal with tanks before critical mass better now. "well what makes the hydra different than the sentry if your logic says the change doesn't affect the sentry." Well to put simply hydras get massed sentries do not. If you mass only sentries vs terran I would love to play you and win everytime.
I see! You're factoring in some mysterious splash attack that occurred on the sentry at some point. So therefore 35+35=80. We have nothing more to discuss.
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On August 30 2010 00:16 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 23:57 bokeevboke wrote:I think tank nerf is mainly for TvT rather than other matchups. Remember how tanks were nerfed to 50... Now marines are more viable in the matchup. Then after that blizzard procedes to balancing other matchups. I strongly believe that Dustin Browder or other staff in Blizzard mainly play terran  It's so sad that they never fix marauder who is too powerful and even counter zealots, who are supposed to counter marauders. TT So terran is overpowered -> solution is to balance TvT... okay~
Marines take the same number of hits to die (assuming they have the shield upgrade and why wouldn't you have this) Mabye one more if you include the splash but they don't do nearly enough damage to really fight siegetanks. In my tvt's marines are just a way to spend my acess minerals by causing havoc at expantions and if I see he isn't sieged then I will stim up and try to kill some tanks real quick. If I am need of scans and supply at the same time (wether this is because i forget to build a depo or he kills some) it is much better to sacrafice my mass meat shileds then to waste a precious scan. (the viking battle jumps back and forth and you want a build up of scans when you are lower in the air)
Mabye an all marine army will be able to be rushed against terran who goes for only tanks but if you are going for tank viking your main limiting factor is gas why not pump out a bunch of marines to hold the ramp a bunker or 2 at the ramp can hold of alot of marines not mention the splash damage from the tank (and just have to build the bunkers if you see him pushing out)
Once you gain a couple of tanks you will eliminate this marine threat and can most likely tech to banshees instead of vikings as he will most likely have to turn into a marauder heavy army (which cannot shoot up)
If any unit is affected in tvt it would be the ghost as instead of dieing in 2 hits they die in 3. They are a unique support unit that you would possibly use to emp pdds (helps your vikings) or nuke advance on a terran. Previously if any 2 tanks could shoot at you a medivac would not be able to heal you fast enough now you can push the nuke in just a little bit further.
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On August 30 2010 03:09 Skvid wrote:
I just love the fact that in the past 5 games (i play terran) 2 of the players said something in the lines "im glad terran nerf is comming, they are so imbalanced"
The funny part is that i didn't used tanks, reapers or battlecruisers in those games, neither did i made a fast bunker rush/contain.
When they know those strats aren't as viable, maybe theyll be better prepared for your bio-ball? it will change alot.
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Funny how nobody complained about zealots but when the nerf comes all the zerg and terrans are like yes of course your right blizzard, op op op !
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On August 30 2010 03:18 Ownos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 18:36 terranghost wrote:On August 29 2010 18:27 Ownos wrote:On August 29 2010 17:57 terranghost wrote:On August 29 2010 14:42 MythicalMage wrote:On August 29 2010 14:25 DTown wrote:On August 29 2010 14:08 MythicalMage wrote:
I HATE the tank change. I literally can't think of a scenario when I want tanks over marauders or higher tech (banshees, ravens, etc.)
EDIT: This isn't a balance complaint. This is a stylistic complaint, since they're taking out the core of the Terran army, currently. No, pretty sure your comment is still a balance complaint. Proven by you insisting that Blizzard is "taking out the core of the Terran army" when they are just modifying the role of an over-powered unit that was causing a lot of problems to make the game more strategically interesting. No, that's a style complaint. The game will be even more balanced, and I don't argue that. It just feels like this core unit is now useless. You can divide the playstyles of Terran into two categories: With tanks and without tanks. If you thought you saw a lot of reaper play in tournaments before, now it's pretty much the only option, as transitioning to tanks isn't really worth it anymore. So my point is this. They aren't "modifying a role." They're making a strong unit close to useless. It'll be like back when beta started and no one used tanks. They might as well bring back the super roach. Regardless, it doesn't effect balance negatively, just several entire playstyles. Core unit useless...... Lets go over the units this will affect. All armored units will take the same damage. This includes: roach, stalker, immortal, ultra, infestor, marauder, tanks, thors, vikings, and collosus. Therefore the units this " nerf" will affect are the following: sentry (which will still die in 2 hits [splash]), templar (same as sentry), Dt (usually die really fast if you can see them), zergling (will still die in 1 hit), baneling (see zergling), marine (see zergling), and reaper (see zergling). Other units affected (quite possibly the only ones the change will affect) Hydra, ghost, zealot. These are the only units that will need to take a noticeably larger amount of hits to kill than previously was needed. How is this making the tank useless before tanks reached critical mass you wanted hellions for the zealots. Ghosts won't work to well unless you are trying pdds or trying to nuke advance but if your ghost can be attacked well you already did something wrong (and news flash how can a mirror match be imba in the first place not that anyone has said this yet). Hydra this will probably be the only unit significantly affected by said change. You're math is awful for 1 thing. Sentries will die to a direct tank shot in 3 hits. A unit surviving an extra shot or two not a big deal? It's a huge deal. What the heck are those armor/weapon upgrades for in the game? Do you not take them because a lot of them only allow you to kill some units in 1 less shot or no change at all (most notably weapons level 1 for zealots to 2 shot lings). Then there is the reduced splash damage as well. 35 splashed is not quite as good as 50 splashed. Everyone saying terran will just use MMM more. Have you thought that terrans use tanks along with MMM also? If they use nothing but MMM and no tanks that's actually easier for me to deal with. read the []'s. 2 50 damage attacks will kill a sentry but so will 2 35 damage attacks when the unit has been splashed. If that amount of damage made such a big deal then why was a nerf needed in the first place just lower the max damage down to 45 or something I mean we noticed such a big change when it was lowered from 60 to 50. You are also missing the overall point. Even if there is no splash and the sentry manages to survive another hit. It will not be a decideing unit in the battle unless your mix is not mech so if I am going bio mech then yes it will have a big deal but chances are if my tank numbers are that limited then my tanks have better things to shoot at. My list still stands on the 3 units that will be most affected by this change. zealot, ghost, and hydra. (I say most affected I did not say game changing) As the terrans will most likely already have hellions to deal with lots. Ghost well that means you are in a mirror match and how the hell is a mirror match not balanced I mean you can both build the same freaking thing. Hydras will be able to deal with tanks before critical mass better now. "well what makes the hydra different than the sentry if your logic says the change doesn't affect the sentry." Well to put simply hydras get massed sentries do not. If you mass only sentries vs terran I would love to play you and win everytime. I see! You're factoring in some mysterious splash attack that occurred on the sentry at some point. So therefore 35+35=80. We have nothing more to discuss.
mysterious splash damage. If the splash damage of the tank wasn't the killer then we would of noticed more of a change going from 60 to 50 damage a shot. Did it change much not really. Why? Because splash damage still did enough damage to everything around the target that yes the tank had to fire one more time to kill a specific target but it killed everything around that target at the same time. Therefore it was not one extra hit per stalker or per shielded marine or per roach. It was one more hit per group of stalkers or per group of shielded marines or per group of roaches.
This mysterious magical splash you refer to lets assume is 5 damage per shot and you have 4 tanks. 2 shot at a sentry and 2 shoot at something else that is now 35+35+5+5=80
Oh that's right splash does more damage than that. If you have enough sentries in your army for tanks to not magically splash all the sentries. Then you probably have already won the game and are messing around or you have too many sentries in your army and are going to get rolled as sentries suffer from being a unit that takes little space meaning splash is twice as affective more units will be hit by it.
Your right you fail at addition.
If splash+attack+attack does not equal total health then the it won't kill me but we are going to assume the splash variable is 0. Yea this seems like a smart idea.
Edit: Just to double check I tested it just now units standing right next to the unit targeted take full damage it isn't reduced at all. So if after this patch I attack the units that my tanks should be attacking (ie stalkers) and the 35 damage still rolls over then I will still 2 shot the sentries. Also in addition to this there is no evidence so far to support how this will change tanks splash damage as if I target an armored unit will surrounding light armored units take 50 damage? IMO yes they will meaning that 50 +35 will kill a sentry. Even if they happen to target an immortal I believe the surrounding splash damage is still the same.
If I go a bio ball where tanks are not numerous (meaning the extra 1 shot might actually mean something now) The ghost is a better support unit for such an army. Which btw can make the sentries abilities useless
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Blizzard is severely illuded if they believe TvP is balanced and that nerfing zealot production time by 21% is a step in good direction. Keep banging the head on the wall until you get it right Blizz.
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On August 30 2010 02:07 ch4ppi wrote:
@Opinion
would you plz sum up what you have experienced so far, for example with lings and Hyds vs tanks?
Yes sir, thanks for showing interest.
Now for the Skeptics:
1. This is a VERY brief and dirty test.
2. I AM NOT going to do in depth multi scenario testing.
3. I am simply showing raw numbers from a few tests to display how easy it is to do your own testing.
4. IF YOU DON'T LIKE MY NUMBERS, DO IT YOURSELF.
Pre patch 1.1 Numbers.
Zero Upgrades, on creep, Attack move zero micro
50 Lings vs 4 siege tanks. = 14 Lings survive, all tanks dead.
18 hydras vs 4 siege tanks. = 12 surviving hydras, all tanks dead.
Post 1.1 Numbers.
50 lings vs 4 siege tanks. = 20 lings survive, all tanks dead.
18 hydras vs 4 siege tanks. = 13 surviving hydras, all tanks dead.
Again, let me be perfectly clear. I don't care if you don't like the numbers, i'm not here to prove ANYTHING. Simply showing you to do the testing yourself and come here with DATA.
PROVE your theorycrafting, you have the tools, do it yourself.
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Keep in mind tvp should still be relatively balanced as far as t mech play goes (Im not going to bother going into MMM balls) Yes your zealots take a little bit longer to come onto the field but especially with charge you will be able to get at tanks much easier since it will take me more hits to kill a bunch of lots then I will have to get some hellions as well which is one less factory building tanks.
I've seen some pretty nice phonenix play vs tank hellion balls. As the number of tanks go down effectiveness of lifting them up increases.
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EPT
