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Jaug
Profile Joined February 2010
Sweden249 Posts
August 29 2010 09:35 GMT
#1621
Terrans barley use tanks with MMM. When they do the games are usually more even (at least vs protoss).

I watched bratOKs stream yesterday and he made medivac marine marauder, some ghost. Every game every matchup. I guess he is happy with patch but I just think it's boring to force every terran player to 7rax.
terranghost
Profile Joined May 2010
United States980 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-29 09:44:36
August 29 2010 09:36 GMT
#1622
On August 29 2010 18:27 Ownos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2010 17:57 terranghost wrote:
On August 29 2010 14:42 MythicalMage wrote:
On August 29 2010 14:25 DTown wrote:
On August 29 2010 14:08 MythicalMage wrote:
I HATE the tank change. I literally can't think of a scenario when I want tanks over marauders or higher tech (banshees, ravens, etc.)

EDIT: This isn't a balance complaint. This is a stylistic complaint, since they're taking out the core of the Terran army, currently.

No, pretty sure your comment is still a balance complaint. Proven by you insisting that Blizzard is "taking out the core of the Terran army" when they are just modifying the role of an over-powered unit that was causing a lot of problems to make the game more strategically interesting.

No, that's a style complaint. The game will be even more balanced, and I don't argue that. It just feels like this core unit is now useless. You can divide the playstyles of Terran into two categories: With tanks and without tanks. If you thought you saw a lot of reaper play in tournaments before, now it's pretty much the only option, as transitioning to tanks isn't really worth it anymore.

So my point is this. They aren't "modifying a role." They're making a strong unit close to useless. It'll be like back when beta started and no one used tanks. They might as well bring back the super roach.

Regardless, it doesn't effect balance negatively, just several entire playstyles.


Core unit useless......
Lets go over the units this will affect.
All armored units will take the same damage.
This includes: roach, stalker, immortal, ultra, infestor, marauder, tanks, thors, vikings, and collosus.

Therefore the units this "nerf" will affect are the following:
sentry (which will still die in 2 hits [splash]), templar (same as sentry), Dt (usually die really fast if you can see them), zergling (will still die in 1 hit), baneling (see zergling), marine (see zergling), and reaper (see zergling).

Other units affected (quite possibly the only ones the change will affect)
Hydra, ghost, zealot.
These are the only units that will need to take a noticeably larger amount of hits to kill than previously was needed.
How is this making the tank useless before tanks reached critical mass you wanted hellions for the zealots. Ghosts won't work to well unless you are trying pdds or trying to nuke advance but if your ghost can be attacked well you already did something wrong (and news flash how can a mirror match be imba in the first place not that anyone has said this yet). Hydra this will probably be the only unit significantly affected by said change.


You're math is awful for 1 thing. Sentries will die to a direct tank shot in 3 hits. A unit surviving an extra shot or two not a big deal? It's a huge deal. What the heck are those armor/weapon upgrades for in the game? Do you not take them because a lot of them only allow you to kill some units in 1 less shot or no change at all (most notably weapons level 1 for zealots to 2 shot lings).

Then there is the reduced splash damage as well. 35 splashed is not quite as good as 50 splashed.

Everyone saying terran will just use MMM more. Have you thought that terrans use tanks along with MMM also? If they use nothing but MMM and no tanks that's actually easier for me to deal with.


read the []'s.
2 50 damage attacks will kill a sentry but so will 2 35 damage attacks when the unit has been splashed. If that amount of damage made such a big deal then why was a nerf needed in the first place just lower the max damage down to 45 or something I mean we noticed such a big change when it was lowered from 60 to 50. You are also missing the overall point. Even if there is no splash and the sentry manages to survive another hit. It will not be a decideing unit in the battle unless your mix is not mech so if I am going bio mech then yes it will have a big deal but chances are if my tank numbers are that limited then my tanks have better things to shoot at. My list still stands on the 3 units that will be most affected by this change. zealot, ghost, and hydra. (I say most affected I did not say game changing)

As the terrans will most likely already have hellions to deal with lots.
Ghost well that means you are in a mirror match and how the hell is a mirror match not balanced I mean you can both build the same freaking thing.
Hydras will be able to deal with tanks before critical mass better now.
"well what makes the hydra different than the sentry if your logic says the change doesn't affect the sentry."
Well to put simply hydras get massed sentries do not. If you mass only sentries vs terran I would love to play you and win everytime.
"It is amazing that people who think we cannot afford to pay for doctors, hospitals, and medication somehow think that we can afford to pay for doctors, hospitals, medication and a government bureaucracy to administer it." - Thomas Sowell
ZaaaaaM
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands1828 Posts
August 29 2010 09:38 GMT
#1623
Those vids are awesome:D Altho, i don't think idra's happy because this patch doesn't fix anything except early zealot aggression. Terran will be able to go 5RR (5 seconds don't matter, it is the fact that reapers outrange everything until T2.5. The tank damage, as showed earlier, won't do crap (only against hydras which are really weak at the moment anyway) Ultra nerf is pretty harsh too, because its the only unit that helps Z put up a real fight vs T lategame. BC's.. well, let's say only TLO is sad about this.
Dissapoiting patch which most likely won't make terrancraft Starcraft once again
no dude, the question
Spyridon
Profile Joined April 2010
United States997 Posts
August 29 2010 09:45 GMT
#1624
I'm a Z player and I'm pleased with the patch notes. Slowing down Reapers allows you to get enough units to fight it off before it reaches critical mass. Even large amounts of lings do great against Reapers if you position them wisely. Also gives time for your 2nd XP to get up and running a bit better b4 critical mass Reapers, which helps econ + reaper defense. May not even need to tech Roaches against them once the changes are up.

With that said, I still hope this is just a "preview" and there will be more in the patch. As a matter of fact I'm fairly sure there will be at least some more changes, considering they have approx 3 weeks or so from when they announced it until release.
guitarizt
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1492 Posts
August 29 2010 09:55 GMT
#1625
I hope I never have to use roaches now unless they high templar. I wish they would have buffed zerg instead of nerfing everything else.
“There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.” - Hemingway
dybydx
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Canada1764 Posts
August 29 2010 10:03 GMT
#1626
o common.... tanks are already crap as it is. 50 dmg is nothing compared to colossi or ultra splash.
...from the land of imba
n0ise
Profile Joined April 2010
3452 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-29 10:22:15
August 29 2010 10:10 GMT
#1627
Since (tournament-wise, and not only) T and P both seem to be doing really fine, I don't understand why they fuck around with these funky tweaks instead of just buffing zerg's early game, where most people agree the problem lies.

But ye why fix that when you can lower BC dmg to ground to 8.

Also, I'ma lol in the face of anyone who makes tanks now

Fun Fact

1 50/0 stim'd marine DPS vs Light - 10.5
1 125/100 Sieged Tank DPS vs Light - 11.6 + splash (splashing still wouldn't bring the DPS on par to the equivalent of 4 marines)

So they'd be worth it if you could get a healthy chunk and you'd fight against a mainly armored composition. Interesting thing is that you'd get a solid DPS bonus from making them fire at the armored targets from an army cluster (aka, not letting them shoot at say sentries, but at Stalkers, so every adjacent unit takes max splash damage).
JudoChopper
Profile Joined August 2010
England148 Posts
August 29 2010 10:19 GMT
#1628
On August 29 2010 19:10 n0ise wrote:
Fun Fact - mega hilarious

1 50/0 stim'd marine DPS vs Light - 10.5
1 125/100 Sieged Tank DPS vs Light - 11.6 + splash (splashing still wouldn't bring the DPS on par to the equivalent of 4 marines)


Fun fact Siege Tanks have 13 range! (fucking 13!!) splash, and are still awesome vs armoured.
no
kidcrash89
Profile Joined August 2010
198 Posts
August 29 2010 10:47 GMT
#1629
On August 29 2010 19:10 n0ise wrote:
Since (tournament-wise, and not only) T and P both seem to be doing really fine, I don't understand why they fuck around with these funky tweaks instead of just buffing zerg's early game, where most people agree the problem lies.


They nerfed both T and P early game which translates into a better early game for zerg
Hikari
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
1914 Posts
August 29 2010 12:48 GMT
#1630
I have a slight feeling that instead of 4 gate zealots protoss would transition into 5 gates to make up for the slightly longer build time....
JudoChopper
Profile Joined August 2010
England148 Posts
August 29 2010 12:49 GMT
#1631
On August 29 2010 21:48 Hikari wrote:
I have a slight feeling that instead of 4 gate zealots protoss would transition into 5 gates to make up for the slightly longer build time....

Yeah most likely, I certainly always try to get more than 4 gates as it is now, simply for warping in mass reinforcements or having to defend some unexpected harass/drop.
no
TyrantPotato
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Australia1541 Posts
August 29 2010 12:58 GMT
#1632
On August 29 2010 19:47 kidcrash89 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2010 19:10 n0ise wrote:
Since (tournament-wise, and not only) T and P both seem to be doing really fine, I don't understand why they fuck around with these funky tweaks instead of just buffing zerg's early game, where most people agree the problem lies.


They nerfed both T and P early game which translates into a better early game for zerg


nerfing P only helped the ZvP matchup, which imo was already balanced. and in reality in this match up it'll just reduce the proxy 2 gate cheese i guess.

the nerf to T was bunker increase time, and reaper build time. and of those two NEITHER WERE A PROBLEM. as zerg its not that reapers come out before my lings thats the problem. its the fact that when theres 10 reapers killing everything i throw at them, and if i dont throw anything at them ill lose instantly therefore putting me behind economicly whilst they expand and prepare for a mid game push. sure reaper microing is hard whilst macroing. BUT BEATING THOSE REAPERS REQUIRES MORE MICRO and effects the macro of the zerg player more then the terran player.

Forever ZeNEX.
x2fst
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
1272 Posts
August 29 2010 13:03 GMT
#1633
why can you not view all pages as one in some threads?
muda, is a crime for me to wear a shirt, cos I is so good lookin
LimeNade
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2125 Posts
August 29 2010 13:03 GMT
#1634
wooooo tanks cant 2 shot hydras anymore!!!! im happy
JD, need I say more? :D
Slakter
Profile Joined January 2010
Sweden1947 Posts
August 29 2010 13:09 GMT
#1635
Cant wait for this patch. Just got knocked out of Go4SC2 becouse of tanks insane damage -.-
Protoss, can't live with em', can't kill em'.
Affluenza
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom214 Posts
August 29 2010 13:09 GMT
#1636
Zerg still need numerous patches from the looks of it...

Zerglings - Speedlings seem to have too much of a cannon fodder utility to them.
Hydra - Speed increase and HP of 100 plz oh and make me viable in ZvT by giving me armour unit bonus damage of 2 or 3+. Tank and Psystorm fodder is what Hydralisk is atm.
Roach - Give me back my Armour and give me speed from the off also range increase to 4 plz k thanks!
Queen - Should not need Spawning pool. Faster spawn larvae cycles maybe 35 seconds.
Spire - Lower the Spire time 10-15 seconds
Infestor - Neural Parasite needs to be at least 20 or 30 seconds
Spine Crawler - Marauder fodder. Spines should not be considered a structure.
Overseer - Needs a 25 reduction maybe even a 50 gas reduction!
Adrenal Glands Needs a buff!
My children, the hour of our victory is at hand. For upon this world of Aiur shall we incorporate the strongest known species into our fold. Then shall we be the greatest of creation's children. We shall be... Perfect.
Badjas
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Netherlands2038 Posts
August 29 2010 13:16 GMT
#1637
Affluenza, you realize that you are going way over the top with those changes? A slight change in one unit will affect the viability of other units as well because of the changes it brings in the overal balance in economy between the two opponents. If you add several of those changes, this effect snowballs into an exponential hypernovasplosion (I just made that up, duh).
I <3 the internet, I <3 you
Affluenza
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom214 Posts
August 29 2010 13:28 GMT
#1638
Zerg is the weakest race early-mid game...it needs to be re-balanced.

Notice that all the changes are for units one would use early to mid-game...except for Adrenal Glands which is only available at T3.

I think the changes are fair...Zerg needs to be reactionary but atm it's a race that plays for survival in the first 10 minutes or so...and that is very very wrong.
My children, the hour of our victory is at hand. For upon this world of Aiur shall we incorporate the strongest known species into our fold. Then shall we be the greatest of creation's children. We shall be... Perfect.
Wolfpox
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada164 Posts
August 29 2010 13:29 GMT
#1639
On August 29 2010 18:38 ZaaaaaM wrote:
Those vids are awesome:D Altho, i don't think idra's happy because this patch doesn't fix anything except early zealot aggression. Terran will be able to go 5RR (5 seconds don't matter, it is the fact that reapers outrange everything until T2.5. The tank damage, as showed earlier, won't do crap (only against hydras which are really weak at the moment anyway) Ultra nerf is pretty harsh too, because its the only unit that helps Z put up a real fight vs T lategame. BC's.. well, let's say only TLO is sad about this.
Dissapoiting patch which most likely won't make terrancraft Starcraft once again


I agree with you sir. I think Blizzard is desperately trying to avoid doing something obvious, so they're trying to fix imbalances with half steps and indirect methods in some ways.
[B] Butigroove wrote:[/B] Blizzard is double expanding to the natural gold base of our poor little nerd hearts.
Crissaegrim
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
2947 Posts
August 29 2010 13:34 GMT
#1640
On August 29 2010 11:10 kickinhead wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2010 11:04 ziteNiA wrote:
OH good nerf MMM


Why?

bio is balanced in tvz and prooss rapes bio with speedlots and storm... Don't whine about balance when protoss is simply playing stupid...

I mean: 1-base all-in's and Collossi almost every game? Don't you realize that this Build is pretty bad? Try playing an economic game and get into the lategame for a good Speedlot/Archon/HT-Army that TOTALLY DESTROYS Terran Bio...

Terran won't continue to play Bio when Protoss starts making Economic Builds that get into the lategame.


Bio is balanced in tvz? LOL. I hope you are joking.
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