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On August 28 2010 07:09 Psychlone wrote:
In Broodwar,
Tanks did 70 x 75% = 52,5 dmg to Zealots (70 to shields). SC2 Tanks were not really better statswise against Zealots than in BW, but they have good AI and Zealots have charge. AI was still a huge bonus, now at 35 dmg its more even.
Tanks did 70 x 50% = 35 dmg to zerglings and 70 x 75% = 52,5 dmg to Hydras. But the overkill and "Indian line" effect of zergling made tanks suck against most things except tightly packed hydras. But people still made them! They were great agains large units and their function was actually to Siege entrenched positions or defend sieges, not OWN all ground armies and give ultimate map control. The smart AI is such a HUGE game changer that this nerf was totally necessary.
You don't have the right to complain as a Terran player if you haven't played Brood War. You don't realize how good you have it. As a Brood War random player now new SC2 Zerg player, I am still flabbergasted at how fast my zerglings die to tank fire. I'm like : "Oh these tanks are out of position! Attack!" Then I smack my hand on my forehead for forgetting how godly they are now.
You have to remember though that they effectively cost 25% more(gas) and 50% more supply. The thing is though that since this is a different game, I could also mention irradiate being gone and roaches on the field and you could mention dark swarm.
The problem is, it can be hard to justify making the tank since it both costs so much and it's flaws in immobility and logarithm strength are taken into account. If the tank doesn't do it's one job well enough, it's likely to not be used at all or rarely at best.
I have nothing against testing this, Blizzard norm has a good eye for nerfs but I also have serious doubts about this change. (Thor has already weakened quite a bit, one wonders if the way TvZ will play is only have tech lab on fact long enough to research preigniter and then switch to reactor an a rauder rax takes the tech lab?)
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On August 28 2010 08:03 Droodjerky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 07:59 Izzachar wrote:
No I rethinked the patch and I do not like it.
Where is the infestor buff? Infestors takes 3 shots from a tank now and not two?
They are armored.
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Tanks this, BW that, small/medium/large units the other...
Units cluster up a hell of a lot more, splash was reduced to compensate, but Tanks have much better AI and don't waste shots.
It should be weaker in damage to the old one in order to be equal to it.
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I thought one of the ideas behind initially lowering the time for zealot production was to stop 6 and 10 pool rushes? I'm curious how this zealot time nerf is going to play out during a Steppes of War match up when a zerg 6 pools you.
I like most of the changes, I'm still not convinced by just the bunker build time being increased, salvage shouldn't be 100% of the minerals.
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Zealots may be taking longer to build now - but with charge they are going to do significantly more damage to tanks. It's going to be ugly.
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I dont really think the 2/1 terran pushes are going to be that bad against toss. I think it will probably be about the same to be honest. I like the reaper change and the effect it has on PvT though and I noticed not many people discussing its effect on that matchup. I think the slower rauders maybe act as enough deterrent that you can actually get a zealot before a stalker every time against terran, whereas now people are skipping the zealot for fear of reapers. If theres a proxy rax you're probably gonna need a stalker first because a reaper might be on the way, but if people are playing straight up I think you can go either Zealot Stalker Zealot, or Zealot Stalker Sentry (if you want to use the gas) and defend the rush. TBH I think the elimination of a reaper rush as a threat will help tremendously in defending against the 2/1 push.
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On August 28 2010 08:10 FaZe wrote:
Zealots may be taking longer to build now - but with charge they are going to do significantly more damage to tanks. It's going to be ugly.
You're assuming that Terrans will do anything except MMM pushes against Protoss now.
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On August 28 2010 08:11 Jayrod wrote:
I dont really think the 2/1 terran pushes are going to be that bad against toss. I think it will probably be about the same to be honest. I like the reaper change and the effect it has on PvT though and I noticed not many people discussing its effect on that matchup. I think the slower rauders maybe act as enough deterrent that you can actually get a zealot before a stalker every time against terran, whereas now people are skipping the zealot for fear of reapers. If theres a proxy rax you're probably gonna need a stalker first because a reaper might be on the way, but if people are playing straight up I think you can go either Zealot Stalker Zealot, or Zealot Stalker Sentry (if you want to use the gas) and defend the rush. TBH I think the elimination of a reaper rush as a threat will help tremendously in defending against the 2/1 push.
Going Zealot before Stalker didn't ever delay your Stalker (although I guess it might with the build time change, I don't know). There's no reason why anyone would have skipped the Zealot for fear of Reapers.
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Not as good as it should be , ghosts, marauders and pf are too strong as well.
Better than nothing i guess
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Marauders will still own everything 
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On August 28 2010 08:10 Decko wrote:
I thought one of the ideas behind initially lowering the time for zealot production was to stop 6 and 10 pool rushes? I'm curious how this zealot time nerf is going to play out during a Steppes of War match up when a zerg 6 pools you.
I like most of the changes, I'm still not convinced by just the bunker build time being increased, salvage shouldn't be 100% of the minerals.
Just like in SCBW, P or T can hold on for like 10 seconds before they have a worker and still be all right.
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On August 28 2010 07:57 Bibdy wrote:
Something's got to happen to the Marauder, eventually. Blizzard like their 'everything is overpowered in certain situations' style of balancing, but come on. Just because it can't hit air units doesn't entitle it to demolish ground and for less cost than something that can hit air (Hydra/Stalker).
Yes...yes it does. I understand that you think rauders are OP, but asking that Blizzard just turn them into a shitty hydra/stalker that can't shoot air is silly.
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Amazing patch. They are carefully avoiding changing too much at once so that they know what change caused what problem in the future, but still changing enough to potentially address just about every complaint so far. Be happy that SC2 is handled by such patient devs
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On August 28 2010 08:18 Ryze wrote:Marauders will still own everything
I don't get why everyone is crying about Marauders. I don't know if they're a problem in ZvT, but in PvT, the Marauder certainly is not something that needs a nerf.
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A lot of people are arguing about the tanks, and i can understand why. I mean lings are supposed ot be the counter to siege tanks as they can't shoot when units get too close, but they die before they get there cuz of splash. I think what should be done is make units not clump as much. This would solve a lot of the problems right now
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A good patch, and i'm a terran player.
Stop whining, Blizzard shows they're in tune with the community.
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Feels like the tank change won't do very much to TvZ. Roaches still take as much damage and zerglings/banelings/ultralisks/infestors still get one-shotted and those are the units that usually take tank fire.
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Sigh. The whole problem I have with the way that everyone including Blizzard is balancing the game, is the fact that they are balancing it around things like "X beats Y when you attack-move into each other, so X should be nerfed" instead of just giving better unit control and better options (caster spells being a big one, hello stasis/dark swarm/irradiate) to work around it.
If everyone attack-moved their armies into each other in every single matchup in BW, it would look like the most ridiculously imbalanced game on the planet. But because there were powerful spells and abilities, and because you were able to have such perfect control/micro of your units, matchups evolved into working AROUND things like siege tanks, dark swarm, lurkers, reavers, etc, instead of just removing/nerfing the hell out of anything that you can't just smash your army into.
I understand they're different games, but BW seemed so much more fun, exciting and dynamic when you had to (and had the capacity to) work around super powerful units, rather than just consistently have two "balanced" armies clashing every single game/matchup.
I keep linking this TL article so many times, but it's because I feel so strongly about it T_T
[TLFE]Power Overwhelming
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On August 28 2010 07:27 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 07:21 Eggcake wrote:
So that I understand this correctly:
The Warpgate nerf just affects the zealot cooldown time, right? The rest stays the same? "We have two key changes in mind for the zealot: the build time is being increased from 33 to 38 seconds, and the warpgate cooldown is being increased from 23 to 28 seconds." It seems to imply that just the Zealot cooldown will be increased, but if this is the case then what the fuck are Blizzard thinking. Unsyncing cooldowns is going to ruin Protoss army production. Let's say you have 5 Warp Gates, produce 2 Zealots and 3 Stalkers, then want 5 Stalkers next time. The cooldown on those 3 Stalkers might as well have been increased by 5 seconds too, since NO Protoss player wouldn't just wait for them all to sync up again.
Stalkers and sentry already had a different cool down time than the zealot already. If anything this makes them all even more in sync.
I can't terran players are complaining though. We haven't even seen the official patch notes or how it will play out in actual game play.
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well finally those darn terrans are getting their nerfs, other two.. well ok im not sure how long that will fly, looks to me like they are trying to cut down on the amount of 5 minute games, and ultra i dont think is that big of a deal, as zerg if i am able to get them out anyway the game is pretty much over, looking forward to it though!
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EPT
