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On August 28 2010 02:59 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 02:50 R0YAL wrote:Yay i like these changes but there are more things id like to see such as 1) tech lab time increased to equal reactor 2) BC build time increased to 110 3) Bunker build time increased by 10 seconds OR salvage returns 75% resources from 100% These arnt hate-on Terran nerfs for I am but a mere unbiased random player, I just think it would be better balanced  the only problem with #1 is that increasing the time will mean that reaper harass will be absolutely pointless then and reapers will be useless since they arent able to get out on the field early enough. i havent played the game for a while (studies) and understand that reapers are op. However the nerf you stated will just completely destroy the usage of the reaper. hmm...#3 well increasing the build time wont matter too much since it will be the same in the end (make a bunker, defend, and salvage for absolutely nothing.) 75% is fine imo maybe 80%.
Maybe players should stop using reapers only early game and start using them more creatively throughout the entirety of the game.
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On August 28 2010 02:58 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 02:56 Nightbiscuit wrote:On August 28 2010 02:50 MangoTango wrote:On August 28 2010 02:38 Nightbiscuit wrote:
Just watch how one Zerg pro after the other will switch to Terran after they read about these balance changes. Simply ridiculous. What? Pretty sure Zerg got a buff while the others got nerfed. ZvP change was good ZvT won't change anything really. Reapers will be less effective but Terran was way overpowered even before people were doing the Reaper builds. Siege Tank nerf won't change much as Hydras suck too much because of their immobility. Zerg will continue to struggle against early game Terran because you can't scout properly. You'll still have to guess what he's doing. Making a unit that was hardly ever used extensively more viable won't change anything? Yeah, the scouting issue is still there but saying the siege tank nerf "won't change anything" is being a bit too pessimistic.
I dunno personally it's been a long while since I've had any trouble vs siege tanks. Still the change is nice because lings will be much more effective vs siege tanks due to how the changes affect splash damage, previously lings in the 50% splash zone would take 25 dmg, now they only take 17.5. Plus +1 carapace lings can survive a +0 tank blast or 2 50% splash damage blasts which is cool.
I think the change will pretty much put any ZvT tank issues to rest. A swarm of lings should be quite capable in tackling tanks provided that you can keep the hellions under control.
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On August 28 2010 02:59 klauz619 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 02:57 Woyn wrote:
"One general change we're making is that friendly units will no longer provide vision after being killed. Enemy units previously revealed will no longer be targetable."
Anyone else dislike this? Don't really get that part. Do freshly killed units give sight range for a short while or something? They do. At least 500ms to 1s of time.
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Now marauder fix would make the game finally balanced.
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idra wont lose a game now. heard it here first.
(Would like to hear some responses from pros about this like TLO,Idra,morrow.. duckloadRA)
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On August 28 2010 02:58 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 02:54 Tump wrote:On August 28 2010 02:53 Plexa wrote:On August 28 2010 02:51 Tump wrote:On August 28 2010 02:50 SichuanPanda wrote:
Just a little math on the Zealot change versus Zerg for everyone.
Timings:
Pylon - 25, Gateway - 65, Zealot - 38 (19 Chrono), Pool - 65, Zergling(s) - 24
Assumptions:
- Zerg is going 6/7 pool
- Protoss scouts / guesses this is coming 8 pylon
- Protoss Chronos the Zealot
Dicussion
Quite simply it takes 89 seconds from the start of the Pool for the Zerg to have Zerglings built and heading to the Ps base. Assuming an 8 rather than a 9 pylon, the Protoss will take 109 seconds after the start of the first Pylon to get one Zealot out.
With a 6/7 pool it essentially goes down at the same time as the Pylon - if not earlier, the pool will also be fully complete by the time the gate finishes.
The math does not lie there will be a full TWENTY SECOND window possible in Z v P where it is literally impossible for the Protoss to have a Zealot - (and that is only assuming the P goes the fastest possible Zealot build). I fear for this match-up on short-rush distance maps. 6/7 pool is easily stopped by making a tightwall with a combination of gateways/pylons/a forge. A cannon/chronoed zealot (even if out after lings are trying to kill your wall) seal you an easy win. I never lose to this bs regardless. So you're basically saying every game Protoss is going to have to open with forge-gate with a completely airtight wall. Zerglings can still be a pain, and Zergs will have their queen out and get their economy up to match yours soon enough. Plus you just gave them a free expo that they can take when they please. Zerg is so far behind at that point it doesn't matter. I don't see how lings are a problem once you've walled off and have way more probes and more being chronoed... And who said Zerg has to open every game with a 6/7 pool? You make it sound like Zerg lose all hope once their 7pool fails (or 8 pool for that matter). Assuming you're 10gating to get the zealot out in a respectable time, Protoss economy isn't that great either and don't forget that with a quick pool comes a quick queen - Zerg is behind sure, but it's perfectly playable especially if the protoss has to put down cannons to defend.
I'm not saying that the Zerg has no chance, but I believe he is still hindered in this case. The reason being is he has to catch up on economy with lots of larvae, while Protoss is perfectly safe making units and probes. To add insult to injury, Protoss is able to reach higher tech trees faster (with enough economy to support them quite well), making for an easy win should you press your tech advantage. (Stargate is quite nice in this position, as you have enough Warpgates to keep your Void Rays safe, and it stops any mutalisk all-in, not to mention roaches and lings cant hit air ^^)
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Keep tanks imba, just make them overkill. bah. Not bad though.
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This is turning into a the type of thread that makes me want to puke, im outta here before i really have to ^^
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Thank god for the siege tank nerf. The BC nerf was kinda strange, i've never really seen them as OP. Yes they do tons of damage, but they are really slow, cost alot, and are easily countered. For example i've taken out 2 BCs with a single viking, thats how immobile they are.
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wow tvt is gonna become bio fest again t-t.
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alot of people seem to be focusing on pvz and 6/7 pools. It's going to be slightly harder but not difficult to deal with. When I look at this, I see maurder-heavy early pushes just tearing protoss to shreds. My prediction is pvt is the new zvt.
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On August 28 2010 02:58 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 02:56 Nightbiscuit wrote:On August 28 2010 02:50 MangoTango wrote:On August 28 2010 02:38 Nightbiscuit wrote:
Just watch how one Zerg pro after the other will switch to Terran after they read about these balance changes. Simply ridiculous. What? Pretty sure Zerg got a buff while the others got nerfed. ZvP change was good ZvT won't change anything really. Reapers will be less effective but Terran was way overpowered even before people were doing the Reaper builds. Siege Tank nerf won't change much as Hydras suck too much because of their immobility. Zerg will continue to struggle against early game Terran because you can't scout properly. You'll still have to guess what he's doing. Making a unit that was hardly ever used extensively more viable won't change anything? Yeah, the scouting issue is still there but saying the siege tank nerf "won't change anything" is being a bit too pessimistic.
The only thing that will change is that people will swap out some marauders for blue flame hellions if the Zerg player goes Hydra. You'll still won't be able to effectivelly kill the tanks without using air units, which is what we're currently doing.
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On August 28 2010 03:01 billyX333 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 02:57 StoLiVe wrote:On August 28 2010 02:52 billyX333 wrote:On August 28 2010 02:50 SichuanPanda wrote:
Just a little math on the Zealot change versus Zerg for everyone.
Timings:
Pylon - 25, Gateway - 65, Zealot - 38 (19 Chrono), Pool - 65, Zergling(s) - 24
Assumptions:
- Zerg is going 6/7 pool
- Protoss scouts / guesses this is coming 8 pylon
- Protoss Chronos the Zealot
Discussion
Quite simply it takes 89 seconds from the start of the Pool for the Zerg to have Zerglings built and heading to the Ps base. Assuming an 8 rather than a 9 pylon, the Protoss will take 109 seconds after the start of the first Pylon to get one Zealot out.
With a 6/7 pool it essentially goes down at the same time as the Pylon - if not earlier, the pool will also be fully complete by the time the gate finishes.
The math does not lie there will be a full TWENTY SECOND window possible in Z v P where it is literally impossible for the Protoss to have a Zealot - (and that is only assuming the P goes the fastest possible Zealot build). I fear for this match-up on short-rush distance maps. how long does it take to build an additional pylon to fully block your ramp out? you should already building a gate+pylon at your ramp with just enough space for 1 zealot to block if you count the pylon you should count the overlord too what? im not sure what you're talking about ;(
You don't have to count the overlord b/c you don't need it to build your spawning pool... You can build it along with the spawning pool... You can't build the gateway wihtout building the pylon first...
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The tank only does full damage against roach, it does 35 damage against all the other zerg units. Hydra became useful again. not to mention Zergling flanks will be awesome since splash damage no longer takes out all the other zerglings.
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On August 28 2010 02:59 billyX333 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 02:57 kNyTTyM wrote:On August 28 2010 02:50 SichuanPanda wrote:
Just a little math on the Zealot change versus Zerg for everyone.
Timings:
Pylon - 25, Gateway - 65, Zealot - 38 (19 Chrono), Pool - 65, Zergling(s) - 24
Assumptions:
- Zerg is going 6/7 pool
- Protoss scouts / guesses this is coming 8 pylon
- Protoss Chronos the Zealot
Discussion
Quite simply it takes 89 seconds from the start of the Pool for the Zerg to have Zerglings built and heading to the Ps base. Assuming an 8 rather than a 9 pylon, the Protoss will take 109 seconds after the start of the first Pylon to get one Zealot out.
With a 6/7 pool it essentially goes down at the same time as the Pylon - if not earlier, the pool will also be fully complete by the time the gate finishes.
The math does not lie there will be a full TWENTY SECOND window possible in Z v P where it is literally impossible for the Protoss to have a Zealot - (and that is only assuming the P goes the fastest possible Zealot build). I fear for this match-up on short-rush distance maps. So uhh zealot takes 19seconds instead of 16.5. How did you delay 6 pool before? Do the same thing except for 2.5 in game seconds longer which is about 1.8 real time seconds (used 1:1.4 conversion) this was exactly what I was going to say suddently 5 in game seconds breaks the game and makes 6pool unbeatable lings are going to get there they just arent going to do any worthwhile damage
His math wasn't even right either. I believe it's 22 for chrono boosted zealot from 33 second build time and 25.33 for the 38 build time. 3.33 in game difference which is 2.4 actual seconds using the 1:1.4 ratio. Ya that's imbalanced all right..
lol i criticize his math and fail at subtraction ><
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On August 28 2010 02:59 ganil wrote:
With that huge tank nerf, how are the terran supposed to counter muta + ling/bling ?
I mean... banelings don't have any counter anymore.
Stimmed and split bio runs circles around banelings. Given, you should have 90/10 mech/bio for that composition.
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On August 28 2010 03:00 Tergeron wrote:
My estimate for the last portions of the patch notes are.
"Dark Shrine build time has been increased to 180 seconds"
"Dark Shrine cost increased to 250 Minerals 250 Gas"
"Dark Templars increased to 3 supply"
"Dark Templars can no longer become Archons"
"Warp Prism cost changed to 150 Minerals 75 Gas"
"Warp Prism build time increased to 60 seconds"
DT's are too hard to defend against if you don't scout it fast enough.
darkshrine isnt popular as it is, and Warpprism isnt used alot either. doing a DT rush in sc2 really relies on your opponent having 0 aggression early game. and just get some sort of detection by ~40food = gone. DT's need the warp into archon because with detection they are really squishy, and if you are good about it, they need a second purpose.
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On August 28 2010 03:01 NuKedUFirst wrote:
Well, Time to start practicing Zerg :p
Finally some variations in TvT hopefully.
Already missing FOTM ?
j/k
looks like a great patch, and if some new "amagad OP" crap comes up it will be adressed in the future. +1 for Blizzard
now STOP whining ffs
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reaper range should be nerfed, not the build time. I dont play tvz as im protoss but i think reapers are good because they outrange roaches(unlike stalkers) So nerf reaper range by .5 imo.
wtf@ zealot change. The cost to scout the inside of your base is about 10-15 minerals around the time your first pylon is warping in. Now every zerg is going to hatch before pool on ravine and metal....ugh. 6 pool is also much better now....ugh. I think protoss will go for earlier 2gate builds after this change.
ultralisk are somewhat crappy in zvp imo, they are only good against all in collosus /stalker attacks. But protoss really should be able to scout ultras before they come and go immortals instead. Immortals do so much damage to ultras its rediculous.
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TT, i still gonna play mech vs p and bio vs z no matter what, a bit worried bout tvt thou <:
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EPT
