EPTSituation report 1 posted! - Page 12
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jisaeltl
83 Posts
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Jokey665
United States138 Posts
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Kpyolysis32
553 Posts
On August 28 2010 02:50 SichuanPanda wrote: Just a little math on the Zealot change versus Zerg for everyone. Timings: Pylon - 25, Gateway - 65, Zealot - 38 (19 Chrono), Pool - 65, Zergling(s) - 24 Assumptions: - Zerg is going 6/7 pool - Protoss scouts / guesses this is coming 8 pylon - Protoss Chronos the Zealot Discussion Quite simply it takes 89 seconds from the start of the Pool for the Zerg to have Zerglings built and heading to the Ps base. Assuming an 8 rather than a 9 pylon, the Protoss will take 109 seconds after the start of the first Pylon to get one Zealot out. With a 6/7 pool it essentially goes down at the same time as the Pylon - if not earlier, the pool will also be fully complete by the time the gate finishes. The math does not lie there will be a full TWENTY SECOND window possible in Z v P where it is literally impossible for the Protoss to have a Zealot - (and that is only assuming the P goes the fastest possible Zealot build). I fear for this match-up on short-rush distance maps. Even worse, your calculations are wrong. Chrono boost only increases build rate by x1.5, not by x2. So a constantly chrono'd zealot takes about 23 seconds, and requires 2 chrono boosts. | ||
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Nightbiscuit
Sweden179 Posts
On August 28 2010 02:50 MangoTango wrote: What? Pretty sure Zerg got a buff while the others got nerfed. ZvP change was good ZvT won't change anything really. Reapers will be less effective but Terran was way overpowered even before people were doing the Reaper builds. Siege Tank nerf won't change much as Hydras suck too much because of their immobility. Zerg will continue to struggle against early game Terran because you can't scout properly. You'll still have to guess what he's doing. | ||
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On August 28 2010 02:50 SichuanPanda wrote: Just a little math on the Zealot change versus Zerg for everyone. Timings: Pylon - 25, Gateway - 65, Zealot - 38 (19 Chrono), Pool - 65, Zergling(s) - 24 Assumptions: - Zerg is going 6/7 pool - Protoss scouts / guesses this is coming 8 pylon - Protoss Chronos the Zealot Discussion Quite simply it takes 89 seconds from the start of the Pool for the Zerg to have Zerglings built and heading to the Ps base. Assuming an 8 rather than a 9 pylon, the Protoss will take 109 seconds after the start of the first Pylon to get one Zealot out. With a 6/7 pool it essentially goes down at the same time as the Pylon - if not earlier, the pool will also be fully complete by the time the gate finishes. The math does not lie there will be a full TWENTY SECOND window possible in Z v P where it is literally impossible for the Protoss to have a Zealot - (and that is only assuming the P goes the fastest possible Zealot build). I fear for this match-up on short-rush distance maps. I'm not sure, but I believe the way to stop a 6pool as protoss is to finish off your wall at ramp with a pylon before the lings get there, buy time for your zeal to come out, then cancel the pylon and defend with zeal and a few probes. At least that's what I read in an old (beta stage) thread on the subject. | ||
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Sanguinarius
United States3427 Posts
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On August 28 2010 02:50 SichuanPanda wrote: Just a little math on the Zealot change versus Zerg for everyone. Timings: Pylon - 25, Gateway - 65, Zealot - 38 (19 Chrono), Pool - 65, Zergling(s) - 24 Assumptions: - Zerg is going 6/7 pool - Protoss scouts / guesses this is coming 8 pylon - Protoss Chronos the Zealot Discussion Quite simply it takes 89 seconds from the start of the Pool for the Zerg to have Zerglings built and heading to the Ps base. Assuming an 8 rather than a 9 pylon, the Protoss will take 109 seconds after the start of the first Pylon to get one Zealot out. With a 6/7 pool it essentially goes down at the same time as the Pylon - if not earlier, the pool will also be fully complete by the time the gate finishes. The math does not lie there will be a full TWENTY SECOND window possible in Z v P where it is literally impossible for the Protoss to have a Zealot - (and that is only assuming the P goes the fastest possible Zealot build). I fear for this match-up on short-rush distance maps. how much different is that from the 33 build time when chrono boost is accounted for and time conversion? | ||
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Woyn
United Kingdom1628 Posts
Anyone else dislike this? | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12224 Posts
On August 28 2010 02:42 rastaban wrote: Wow, the change to tanks really makes banelings so much better against the Tank, Marine combo. Really? Banelings have 30 hp right? They'll still get one-shot by Tanks. I don't agree with the Tank change. 35 damage is fine, but no compensation? No cost or supply reduction? No further increase in damage against armored beyond what they did normally? To justify the Tank cost they should either be like 35 +30 or go back down to 150/100/2 for 35 +15. Reaper change is fine. I hate Reaper all-in builds and the TvZ Reaper style was pretty silly. Zealot change is a little concerning. P has enough trouble handling early pressure as it is. Don't agree with the Bunker change. Those things already took forever to build, now they'll take even longer, and their health and repair rate (since it's a function of build time) is ludicrously poor. If you try to o-bunker a Zerg fast expand, you'll get maybe 2 marines in there by the time it's complete if your SCV even lasts that long, and the Z can pump out enough lings to handle it no problem. You'll do maybe 300 damage to the hatchery at the most and only delay harvesting a slight amount (since the main won't be saturated by that time anyway). Ultra change is fine. Making them un-stunnable really turned them into killing machines vs Terran, and they needed the nerf against armored units to compensate. | ||
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Toads
Canada1795 Posts
On August 28 2010 02:52 billyX333 wrote: how long does it take to build an additional pylon to fully block your ramp out? you should already building a gate+pylon at your ramp with just enough space for 1 zealot to block if you count the pylon you should count the overlord too | ||
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CuttyFlam
Belgium523 Posts
1. Zealot build time nerf was really necessary imo(i am P myself) cause lots of Zerg got their early game broken due to 2 gate pushes and because of that they got really behind in midgame.., also the warpgate cd is kind off well thought, esp to the very annoying "korean style 4 warpgate push" 2. Terran reaper nerf was the most needed nerf ofc.. although not sure if its enough.. massing them could still be pretty abusive vs zerg imo :S, but who am i 3. BC nerf is really not needed i think, esp at the top level play. Who cares if their damage output is high relative to their cost?? theyre immobile as fuck and any decent player can deal with them early game , esp if u see it coming Just my two cents, would like to hear what other ppl think about this ^^ | ||
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Dav_
Hungary236 Posts
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Iggyhopper
United States259 Posts
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ToxNub
Canada805 Posts
And tanks don't do full splash to the entire radius. | ||
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vyyye
Sweden3917 Posts
On August 28 2010 02:56 Nightbiscuit wrote: ZvP change was good ZvT won't change anything really. Reapers will be less effective but Terran was way overpowered even before people were doing the Reaper builds. Siege Tank nerf won't change much as Hydras suck too much because of their immobility. Zerg will continue to struggle against early game Terran because you can't scout properly. You'll still have to guess what he's doing. Making a unit that was hardly ever used extensively more viable won't change anything? Yeah, the scouting issue is still there but saying the siege tank nerf "won't change anything" is being a bit too pessimistic. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 28 2010 02:54 Tump wrote: You make it sound like Zerg lose all hope once their 7pool fails (or 8 pool for that matter). Assuming you're 10gating to get the zealot out in a respectable time, Protoss economy isn't that great either and don't forget that with a quick pool comes a quick queen - Zerg is behind sure, but it's perfectly playable especially if the protoss has to put down cannons to defend.Zerg is so far behind at that point it doesn't matter. I don't see how lings are a problem once you've walled off and have way more probes and more being chronoed... And who said Zerg has to open every game with a 6/7 pool? | ||
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HyperDeath
United States64 Posts
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gospelwut
United States52 Posts
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Pyre
United States1940 Posts
The ultra nerf is nice because ultras were destroying all ground units. Armored took massive damage and unarmored took lots of cleave damage. I'm a little curious about the zealot nerf. It wont change proxy gateways in PvP much. Since both players still get units the same amount of time. Stalker/immortal/sentry will probably be the norm in the mid game now. PvT this only helps terrans MM push. PvZ 10 pool will be deadly. | ||
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Iggyhopper
United States259 Posts
On August 28 2010 02:57 Excalibur_Z wrote: Who runs banelings first? Use zerglings as tanks, not banelings.Really? Banelings have 30 hp right? They'll still get one-shot by Tanks. I don't agree with the Tank change. 35 damage is fine, but no compensation? No cost or supply reduction? No further increase in damage against armored beyond what they did normally? To justify the Tank cost they should either be like 35 +30 or go back down to 150/100/2 for 35 +15. Reaper change is fine. I hate Reaper all-in builds and the TvZ Reaper style was pretty silly. Zealot change is a little concerning. P has enough trouble handling early pressure as it is. Don't agree with the Bunker change. Those things already took forever to build, now they'll take even longer, and their health and repair rate (since it's a function of build time) is ludicrously poor. If you try to o-bunker a Zerg fast expand, you'll get maybe 2 marines in there by the time it's complete if your SCV even lasts that long, and the Z can pump out enough lings to handle it no problem. You'll do maybe 300 damage to the hatchery at the most and only delay harvesting a slight amount (since the main won't be saturated by that time anyway). Ultra change is fine. Making them un-stunnable really turned them into killing machines vs Terran, and they needed the nerf against armored units to compensate. | ||
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