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On August 28 2010 02:50 SichuanPanda wrote:
Just a little math on the Zealot change versus Zerg for everyone.
Timings:
Pylon - 25, Gateway - 65, Zealot - 38 (19 Chrono), Pool - 65, Zergling(s) - 24
Assumptions:
- Zerg is going 6/7 pool
- Protoss scouts / guesses this is coming 8 pylon
- Protoss Chronos the Zealot
Discussion
Quite simply it takes 89 seconds from the start of the Pool for the Zerg to have Zerglings built and heading to the Ps base. Assuming an 8 rather than a 9 pylon, the Protoss will take 109 seconds after the start of the first Pylon to get one Zealot out.
With a 6/7 pool it essentially goes down at the same time as the Pylon - if not earlier, the pool will also be fully complete by the time the gate finishes.
The math does not lie there will be a full TWENTY SECOND window possible in Z v P where it is literally impossible for the Protoss to have a Zealot - (and that is only assuming the P goes the fastest possible Zealot build). I fear for this match-up on short-rush distance maps.
how long does it take to build an additional pylon to fully block your ramp out?
you should already building a gate+pylon at your ramp with just enough space for 1 zealot to block
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NOOO don't nerf tanks. MY WIN/LOSS RATIO will be RUINED. I'm loving that zealot nerf though, protoss had it too easy.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Very interesting changes and as Z I am most interested in the tank change; hydralisks might be useable and maybe even good in this matchup now, however I still think tanks will "counter" hydras without creep, just not as much as before, but it should give better options to defending zerg using hydralisks. What I am interested in is the fast +1 carapace opening in ZvT against most early terran pushes.. +50% dmg. reduction against reapers pretty nice help against tanks too.. 
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I like the change but why the only nerf reaper get is a longer build time. this is not the problem the problem is he can out range any zerg unit until hydra. even if he have 3 reaper instead of 6, zerg wont be able to kill it because they out range the unit.
In general this is a good patch note
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Would tank nerf make zergling/baneling/hydra is viable in some degree?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 28 2010 02:51 Tump wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 02:50 SichuanPanda wrote:
Just a little math on the Zealot change versus Zerg for everyone.
Timings:
Pylon - 25, Gateway - 65, Zealot - 38 (19 Chrono), Pool - 65, Zergling(s) - 24
Assumptions:
- Zerg is going 6/7 pool
- Protoss scouts / guesses this is coming 8 pylon
- Protoss Chronos the Zealot
Dicussion
Quite simply it takes 89 seconds from the start of the Pool for the Zerg to have Zerglings built and heading to the Ps base. Assuming an 8 rather than a 9 pylon, the Protoss will take 109 seconds after the start of the first Pylon to get one Zealot out.
With a 6/7 pool it essentially goes down at the same time as the Pylon - if not earlier, the pool will also be fully complete by the time the gate finishes.
The math does not lie there will be a full TWENTY SECOND window possible in Z v P where it is literally impossible for the Protoss to have a Zealot - (and that is only assuming the P goes the fastest possible Zealot build). I fear for this match-up on short-rush distance maps. 6/7 pool is easily stopped by making a tightwall with a combination of gateways/pylons/a forge. A cannon/chronoed zealot (even if out after lings are trying to kill your wall) seal you an easy win. I never lose to this bs regardless.
So you're basically saying every game Protoss is going to have to open with forge-gate with a completely airtight wall. Zerglings can still be a pain, and Zergs will have their queen out and get their economy up to match yours soon enough. Plus you just gave them a free expo that they can take when they please.
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Interesting changes. The ZvT matchup of the future is going to look significantly differently than the one now. I expect to see alot of sling/bling/muta/hydra variants.
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On August 28 2010 02:43 Corinthos wrote:
Soon marauder, marine and ghost will be the standard build for all Terran matchups! Even though there are good changes here, the problem is that they address a specific matchup. This effects the balance of other matchups.
I think it's best if they focus on 1-2 matchups at a time, not all of them, but every change affects every matchup regardless.
These changes aren't that big, but they do count. 5 extra seconds to delay that bunker/reaper rush is pretty good.
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Good day to be a Zerg player =D
The removal of ram was needed... it was useless and makes killing a planetary fortress too hard b/c you can't splash the SCVs while headbutting the fortress.
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On August 28 2010 02:50 R0YAL wrote:Yay i like these changes but there are more things id like to see such as 1) tech lab time increased to equal reactor 2) BC build time increased to 110 3) Bunker build time increased by 10 seconds OR salvage returns 75% resources from 100% These arnt hate-on Terran nerfs for I am but a mere unbiased random player, I just think it would be better balanced
You might as well just remove BCs if you make them 110 again, it's bad enough they get gimped to hell.
If anything, reactor build time should be reduced to 25, reactors take like 3 waves of units to compensate for the insane build time.
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On August 28 2010 02:53 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 02:51 Tump wrote:On August 28 2010 02:50 SichuanPanda wrote:
Just a little math on the Zealot change versus Zerg for everyone.
Timings:
Pylon - 25, Gateway - 65, Zealot - 38 (19 Chrono), Pool - 65, Zergling(s) - 24
Assumptions:
- Zerg is going 6/7 pool
- Protoss scouts / guesses this is coming 8 pylon
- Protoss Chronos the Zealot
Dicussion
Quite simply it takes 89 seconds from the start of the Pool for the Zerg to have Zerglings built and heading to the Ps base. Assuming an 8 rather than a 9 pylon, the Protoss will take 109 seconds after the start of the first Pylon to get one Zealot out.
With a 6/7 pool it essentially goes down at the same time as the Pylon - if not earlier, the pool will also be fully complete by the time the gate finishes.
The math does not lie there will be a full TWENTY SECOND window possible in Z v P where it is literally impossible for the Protoss to have a Zealot - (and that is only assuming the P goes the fastest possible Zealot build). I fear for this match-up on short-rush distance maps. 6/7 pool is easily stopped by making a tightwall with a combination of gateways/pylons/a forge. A cannon/chronoed zealot (even if out after lings are trying to kill your wall) seal you an easy win. I never lose to this bs regardless. So you're basically saying every game Protoss is going to have to open with forge-gate with a completely airtight wall. Zerglings can still be a pain, and Zergs will have their queen out and get their economy up to match yours soon enough. Plus you just gave them a free expo that they can take when they please.
Zerg is so far behind at that point it doesn't matter. I don't see how lings are a problem once you've walled off and have way more probes and more being chronoed...
And who said Zerg has to open every game with a 6/7 pool?
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I'm happy with this. 2gate Zealot pressure and 4gate both nerfed, strategies I've always had huge problems dealing with. I've lost many games to reapers as well, and hopefully the tank nerf will pan out so terran doesn't become "the weak race". The BC nerf I thought was strange though. I've never seen BCs on the ladder.
Ultra nerf looks fair as well. Once you have them out against protoss, it tends to go a little too easily from there.
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On August 28 2010 02:50 Dromar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 02:11 ]Grey[ wrote:
These all seem like pretty solid changes. Their reasoning for the zealot change is a bit odd though. Were proxy gateways particularly hard to hold off as Terran? They seemed pretty ineffective against Zerg, from my experience, at least. I feel the same way. I've held off in-base proxy 2 gate with 15pool and thought "Wow that was easy. Proxy gates are horrible in this game." I dunno maybe my opponents messed up somehow in those games. Then again, maybe it's harder to hold for Terran.
They were absolutely insanely good vs terran. Mostly because zealots literally poop on small numbers of marines, and also your mineral line.
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On August 28 2010 02:46 Tump wrote:
Really glad about zealot/warpgate nerfs. PvP is retarded.
This makes no sense. The PvP proxy gate rush is pretty much exactly as powerful as it was before... since your defending zealots take just as long to get out too. It would help you mass stalkers, were you not already dead... Core and gas by the time he proxies probably means you lose.
And if you're talking lategame, stalkers already pretty much dominate in that respect. Now they will just dominate more. Hurrah, 1 unit matchup.
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On August 28 2010 02:54 Lexvink wrote:
Good day to be a Zerg player =D
The removal of ram was needed... it was useless and makes killing a planetary fortress too hard b/c you can't splash the SCVs while headbutting the fortress.
They should've kept the animation when you attack buildings. It was the coolest thing about ultralisks.
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On August 28 2010 02:50 SichuanPanda wrote:
Just a little math on the Zealot change versus Zerg for everyone.
Timings:
Pylon - 25, Gateway - 65, Zealot - 38 (19 Chrono), Pool - 65, Zergling(s) - 24
Assumptions:
- Zerg is going 6/7 pool
- Protoss scouts / guesses this is coming 8 pylon
- Protoss Chronos the Zealot
Discussion
Quite simply it takes 89 seconds from the start of the Pool for the Zerg to have Zerglings built and heading to the Ps base. Assuming an 8 rather than a 9 pylon, the Protoss will take 109 seconds after the start of the first Pylon to get one Zealot out.
With a 6/7 pool it essentially goes down at the same time as the Pylon - if not earlier, the pool will also be fully complete by the time the gate finishes.
The math does not lie there will be a full TWENTY SECOND window possible in Z v P where it is literally impossible for the Protoss to have a Zealot - (and that is only assuming the P goes the fastest possible Zealot build). I fear for this match-up on short-rush distance maps.
And this is what exactly what I wanted to point out, too. The problem is that some maps have too short rush distance. It doesnt change the game at all if you change whining zerg players because they get zealot rushed into whining Protoss user because they get 6/7 pooled.
I hope Blizz really reads the comments and realises that this change is not going to balance the game more.
About PvT and ZvT, I dont think the Battlecruiser is the unit that needs a nerf. Tank nerf could be fine, we'll see. BUT, I think the Marauder really needs a little nerf, either a decrease in hitpoints or a little decrease in damage
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On August 28 2010 02:51 Tump wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 02:50 SichuanPanda wrote:
Just a little math on the Zealot change versus Zerg for everyone.
Timings:
Pylon - 25, Gateway - 65, Zealot - 38 (19 Chrono), Pool - 65, Zergling(s) - 24
Assumptions:
- Zerg is going 6/7 pool
- Protoss scouts / guesses this is coming 8 pylon
- Protoss Chronos the Zealot
Dicussion
Quite simply it takes 89 seconds from the start of the Pool for the Zerg to have Zerglings built and heading to the Ps base. Assuming an 8 rather than a 9 pylon, the Protoss will take 109 seconds after the start of the first Pylon to get one Zealot out.
With a 6/7 pool it essentially goes down at the same time as the Pylon - if not earlier, the pool will also be fully complete by the time the gate finishes.
The math does not lie there will be a full TWENTY SECOND window possible in Z v P where it is literally impossible for the Protoss to have a Zealot - (and that is only assuming the P goes the fastest possible Zealot build). I fear for this match-up on short-rush distance maps. 6/7 pool is easily stopped by making a tightwall with a combination of gateways/pylons/a forge. A cannon/chronoed zealot (even if out after lings are trying to kill your wall) seal you an easy win. I never lose to this bs regardless.
You could even reactively put down a pylon to seal off when you see the lings coming/scout the 6 pool can't you? Sure the pylon might eventually fall, but you would have your zealot out by then and could just crush the lings and auto-win.
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On August 28 2010 02:48 Defrag wrote:
If im reading this correctly, big Ultralisk nerf and no proposed zerg buffs? what the hell?
I honestly don't think the issue is that zerg were in need of buffs, it was more that reapers and tanks needed to be more in check for the TvZ match up. Time will tell if the nerfs to reapers and tanks will be sufficient though.
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On August 28 2010 02:52 billyX333 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 02:50 SichuanPanda wrote:
Just a little math on the Zealot change versus Zerg for everyone.
Timings:
Pylon - 25, Gateway - 65, Zealot - 38 (19 Chrono), Pool - 65, Zergling(s) - 24
Assumptions:
- Zerg is going 6/7 pool
- Protoss scouts / guesses this is coming 8 pylon
- Protoss Chronos the Zealot
Discussion
Quite simply it takes 89 seconds from the start of the Pool for the Zerg to have Zerglings built and heading to the Ps base. Assuming an 8 rather than a 9 pylon, the Protoss will take 109 seconds after the start of the first Pylon to get one Zealot out.
With a 6/7 pool it essentially goes down at the same time as the Pylon - if not earlier, the pool will also be fully complete by the time the gate finishes.
The math does not lie there will be a full TWENTY SECOND window possible in Z v P where it is literally impossible for the Protoss to have a Zealot - (and that is only assuming the P goes the fastest possible Zealot build). I fear for this match-up on short-rush distance maps. how long does it take to build an additional pylon to fully block your ramp out? you should already building a gate+pylon at your ramp with just enough space for 1 zealot to block
Well its 25 seconds per pylon - I'm gonna get the build order tester going and get the timings on mineral income and more importantly when buildings go down to get some real solid data. The post you quoted was essentially to indicate assuming the first pylon and the spawning pool start being built at the same time, the lings can show up to the P base with potentially ten seconds to spare (Incineration Zone).
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On August 28 2010 02:50 bobsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 02:42 rastaban wrote:
Wow, the change to tanks really makes banelings so much better against the Tank, Marine combo. Rastaban, are you serious? Side note: Can someone explain to me how the Tank vs Zerg dynamic has changed... I mean I'm looking at what a tank basically did before compared to after the nerf. Obliterating that front line of zerg. Well the front line is mainly Sppedlings and roaches. So the facts are : Lings have 35 HP: Roaches have 125: Armored Tank dmg output before: 50 Tank dmg outpute after: 35, +15 to armor So aren't they still going to basically one shot the lings and then do the same damage to the roaches. Maybe the reduction in normal damage will allow a couple lings to get through, but I'm seeing a stim MMM ball mowing down the leftovers extremely quick and the tanks 2nd shot still hitting the roaches. If not the second maybe their 2.5 or 3rd shot. Can someone explain... Oh and Protoss the lings are starting to look like the new reapers to your probes... good luck Thanks
+1 carapace.
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EPT
