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On August 28 2010 02:57 Woyn wrote:
"One general change we're making is that friendly units will no longer provide vision after being killed. Enemy units previously revealed will no longer be targetable."
Anyone else dislike this?
Don't really get that part.
Do freshly killed units give sight range for a short while or something?
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This isn't the patch notes. it is only a highlight of the upcoming patch.
I would be shocked if this is all they changed.
I expect more changes will be announced as the patch gets closer.
In the mean time we should all focus on the word NERF and act like the world is collapsing in around us, it is the only rational thing to do.
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On August 28 2010 02:57 kNyTTyM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 02:50 SichuanPanda wrote:
Just a little math on the Zealot change versus Zerg for everyone.
Timings:
Pylon - 25, Gateway - 65, Zealot - 38 (19 Chrono), Pool - 65, Zergling(s) - 24
Assumptions:
- Zerg is going 6/7 pool
- Protoss scouts / guesses this is coming 8 pylon
- Protoss Chronos the Zealot
Discussion
Quite simply it takes 89 seconds from the start of the Pool for the Zerg to have Zerglings built and heading to the Ps base. Assuming an 8 rather than a 9 pylon, the Protoss will take 109 seconds after the start of the first Pylon to get one Zealot out.
With a 6/7 pool it essentially goes down at the same time as the Pylon - if not earlier, the pool will also be fully complete by the time the gate finishes.
The math does not lie there will be a full TWENTY SECOND window possible in Z v P where it is literally impossible for the Protoss to have a Zealot - (and that is only assuming the P goes the fastest possible Zealot build). I fear for this match-up on short-rush distance maps. So uhh zealot takes 19seconds instead of 16.5. How did you delay 6 pool before? Do the same thing except for 2.5 in game seconds longer which is about 1.8 real time seconds (used 1:1.4 conversion)
this was exactly what I was going to say
suddently 5 in game seconds breaks the game and makes 6pool unbeatable
lings are going to get there
they just arent going to do any worthwhile damage
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On August 28 2010 02:50 R0YAL wrote:Yay i like these changes but there are more things id like to see such as 1) tech lab time increased to equal reactor 2) BC build time increased to 110 3) Bunker build time increased by 10 seconds OR salvage returns 75% resources from 100% These arnt hate-on Terran nerfs for I am but a mere unbiased random player, I just think it would be better balanced 
the only problem with #1 is that increasing the time will mean that reaper harass will be absolutely pointless then and reapers will be useless since they arent able to get out on the field early enough. i havent played the game for a while (studies) and understand that reapers are op. However the nerf you stated will just completely destroy the usage of the reaper.
hmm...#3 well increasing the build time wont matter too much since it will be the same in the end (make a bunker, defend, and salvage for absolutely nothing.) 75% is fine imo maybe 80%.
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I feel like protoss is getting balanced around their macro mechanic, whereas terran and zerg aren't.
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On August 28 2010 02:52 shindigs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 02:50 R0YAL wrote:Yay i like these changes but there are more things id like to see such as 1) tech lab time increased to equal reactor 2) BC build time increased to 110 3) Bunker build time increased by 10 seconds OR salvage returns 75% resources from 100% These arnt hate-on Terran nerfs for I am but a mere unbiased random player, I just think it would be better balanced Tech lab time increase would screw up a lot of build order timings for terran. I don't think its necessary.
So on one hand we have short-term build order frustration and on the other hand we have actual balance... I would pick balance
Not saying that the tech lab build time will no doubtely help balance, but I think it would help alot, even moreso than the reaper build time being increased. If they just increased the build time on the reactor instead then I think it would help balance reapers and marauders as well as the amazing transitioning ability that the terran has.
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These changes are a god send for zerg! It sounds like the tank debuff is going to be just enough to give lings and hydras that extra stamina vs mech/bio w tank.
If blizzard just fixed the infestor (np plz?) I would be more than content till the expansion...
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With that huge tank nerf, how are the terran supposed to counter muta + ling/bling ?
I mean... banelings don't have any counter anymore.
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I don't think that a zealot nerf was the best way to go about with nerfing the 4 warp gate all in. If anything, delaying warp gate tech even more would have been more helpful...
With the zealot nerf, no matter what you do, the other protoss still gets 4 zealots into your base before the nerf even comes into play, AND the unit that defends against 4 warp gate is the zealot in the first place....
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Guess mods should switch the letters in all the "zvt" threads
I think it's cautious as well, not in the "making it more balanced" department, but blizzards hesitation to really revamp alot of things, as compared to the beta. Balancewise, it changes alot. They have to reformat maps to make 7pool a little less timing efficient to protoss. But it doesnt change much after warpgates pop. You already throw down about 20 warpgates anywho 
ZvT has ALOT more breathing room. It will definitely be alot less tank oriented, but they still make the terran ball alot less approachable to all but a full on confrontation. 5rax reaper will still be very strong for terran, but alot less threatening for zerg to sack everything to get them out. BCs were strong, but I never played a zvt where it mattered. Making that +1 so important for zerg is step in the direction of awesome. Encourages players to develop timing and thinking. Love it. i can name 3 games offhand where I would have heldoff a push with these changes that I simply couldnt hold off when comparing the terrans skill to mine. They could buff the +armor dmg and make roaches 1.5 (ROACHLING PLEASE) and Id call it a fair trade. Im just happy my lings can add so much more, until good terrans screw me with +1 weapons X_X Banelings too! gasp the potential.
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My estimate for the last portions of the patch notes are.
"Dark Shrine build time has been increased to 180 seconds"
"Dark Shrine cost increased to 250 Minerals 250 Gas"
"Dark Templars increased to 3 supply"
"Dark Templars can no longer become Archons"
"Warp Prism cost changed to 150 Minerals 75 Gas"
"Warp Prism build time increased to 60 seconds"
DT's are too hard to defend against if you don't scout it fast enough.
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On August 28 2010 02:44 Parodoxx wrote:
Umm wait zerg QQs about mech for about a month then 1 tourney with reapers being used a lot and that gets the attention....
zerg QQ's about mech for about a month, then a player shows everyone the magic box, and system that has been in the game since release, and its fixed. people just needed to experiment, and i think they knew that. Reapers, where just strong no matter what since its early game, and isnt to complex.
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Thank Gawd, a tank nerf. <3 Sorry Terrans, but we all know it had to happen. Least controversial change evar.
The ultralisk nerf is a good thing in the long run. The problems with the ultralisk were never about bad damage. Even nerfed, the damage is fine. But with such massive damage, it's hard to justify buffing its weak points. Now that it's hopefully just the right amount of 'powerful' 'for the cost,' maybe later patches will be able to work on the 'mustering' things like pathing, attack range, and those long research time mandatory upgrades. If it can be made a practical unit to use with good army synergy, but has to suck up some raw stat reductions in return, that would be a great trade.
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On August 28 2010 02:56 trevf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 02:50 bobsc2 wrote:On August 28 2010 02:42 rastaban wrote:
Wow, the change to tanks really makes banelings so much better against the Tank, Marine combo. Rastaban, are you serious? Side note: Can someone explain to me how the Tank vs Zerg dynamic has changed... I mean I'm looking at what a tank basically did before compared to after the nerf. Obliterating that front line of zerg. Well the front line is mainly Sppedlings and roaches. So the facts are : Lings have 35 HP: Roaches have 125: Armored Tank dmg output before: 50 Tank dmg outpute after: 35, +15 to armor So aren't they still going to basically one shot the lings and then do the same damage to the roaches. Maybe the reduction in normal damage will allow a couple lings to get through, but I'm seeing a stim MMM ball mowing down the leftovers extremely quick and the tanks 2nd shot still hitting the roaches. If not the second maybe their 2.5 or 3rd shot. Can someone explain... Oh and Protoss the lings are starting to look like the new reapers to your probes... good luck Thanks +1 carapace.
I'm hoping you can elaborate. I can see how the +1 carapace will keep the lings alive. But won't they be left with 1 hp in which the MMM ball will still mow them down basically before the tanks next shot gets off? ALso the Banelings health is at 30 how will this make them that much more effective?
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On August 28 2010 02:57 Woyn wrote:
"One general change we're making is that friendly units will no longer provide vision after being killed. Enemy units previously revealed will no longer be targetable."
Anyone else dislike this?
Realistically, it makes sense. It doesn't make sense to have vision with the unit being dead.
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the tank nerf is really well thought out from my point of view, lings without armorupgrade are still oneshotted (which is just fine, lings do well against tanks only, and you got a small timing window once your armor finishes where the terran has no attackupgrade), they still oneshow banelings which is just mandatory for TvZ, but they will need 3 shots for hydras, which makes hydras just as good frontline units as roaches against tanks, and they will be much worse against zealots, which increases the need of hellions in late TvP.
can't say anything about the zealot change, but the ultralisk change is needed from my point of view. they are just crazy, and once you got some economy (if your opponent is not in your face 100% of the time that shouldn't be a problem as zerg) ultralisks are so easy massable... and with their splash they just rape everything.
im surprised there is no change on the banshees though... I was very sure that they will slightly change reapers, ultralisks and tanks in the balance patch, but I was also quite sure they would change some timings on the banshee, change the cloak energy cost, banshee range or whatever. I think the banshee is too gamebreaking if not being scouted, while the effort the terran has to put in is reasonable, but not as huge as the impact of the banshees, even if they are scouted they are sooo good.
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I love how everyone on the Battle.net comments are still whining for Marauder nerfs, honestly Siege tanks are more of a problem then marauders, get some chargelots people, or maybe air units? Or maybe, dare I say it Immortals?
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On August 28 2010 02:57 StoLiVe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 02:52 billyX333 wrote:On August 28 2010 02:50 SichuanPanda wrote:
Just a little math on the Zealot change versus Zerg for everyone.
Timings:
Pylon - 25, Gateway - 65, Zealot - 38 (19 Chrono), Pool - 65, Zergling(s) - 24
Assumptions:
- Zerg is going 6/7 pool
- Protoss scouts / guesses this is coming 8 pylon
- Protoss Chronos the Zealot
Discussion
Quite simply it takes 89 seconds from the start of the Pool for the Zerg to have Zerglings built and heading to the Ps base. Assuming an 8 rather than a 9 pylon, the Protoss will take 109 seconds after the start of the first Pylon to get one Zealot out.
With a 6/7 pool it essentially goes down at the same time as the Pylon - if not earlier, the pool will also be fully complete by the time the gate finishes.
The math does not lie there will be a full TWENTY SECOND window possible in Z v P where it is literally impossible for the Protoss to have a Zealot - (and that is only assuming the P goes the fastest possible Zealot build). I fear for this match-up on short-rush distance maps. how long does it take to build an additional pylon to fully block your ramp out? you should already building a gate+pylon at your ramp with just enough space for 1 zealot to block if you count the pylon you should count the overlord too
what?
im not sure what you're talking about ;(
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Well, Time to start practicing Zerg :p
Finally some variations in TvT hopefully.
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I'm sure there will be more actual changes in the patch, these are just the ones Blizzard felt the need to highlight.
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EPT
