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On August 28 2010 03:04 bobsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 03:01 billyX333 wrote:On August 28 2010 02:57 StoLiVe wrote:On August 28 2010 02:52 billyX333 wrote:On August 28 2010 02:50 SichuanPanda wrote:
Just a little math on the Zealot change versus Zerg for everyone.
Timings:
Pylon - 25, Gateway - 65, Zealot - 38 (19 Chrono), Pool - 65, Zergling(s) - 24
Assumptions:
- Zerg is going 6/7 pool
- Protoss scouts / guesses this is coming 8 pylon
- Protoss Chronos the Zealot
Discussion
Quite simply it takes 89 seconds from the start of the Pool for the Zerg to have Zerglings built and heading to the Ps base. Assuming an 8 rather than a 9 pylon, the Protoss will take 109 seconds after the start of the first Pylon to get one Zealot out.
With a 6/7 pool it essentially goes down at the same time as the Pylon - if not earlier, the pool will also be fully complete by the time the gate finishes.
The math does not lie there will be a full TWENTY SECOND window possible in Z v P where it is literally impossible for the Protoss to have a Zealot - (and that is only assuming the P goes the fastest possible Zealot build). I fear for this match-up on short-rush distance maps. how long does it take to build an additional pylon to fully block your ramp out? you should already building a gate+pylon at your ramp with just enough space for 1 zealot to block if you count the pylon you should count the overlord too what? im not sure what you're talking about ;( You don't have to count the overlord b/c you don't need it to build your spawning pool... You can build it along with the spawning pool... You can't build the gateway wihtout building the pylon first...
i dont know what that has to do with my question
i asked how long does it take to wall in response to zerglings
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konadora
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What a protoss nerf :D.
The builds I've theorycrafted this whole week, spending a whole bunch of hours, were PvT FE and 2gate pvp with chrono on zealots, but goal on economy.
Now I'm sad  . Also, any tech opening vs zerg now pretty much requires chrono on first zealot to survive a regular build, and mayor probe pull vs a rush, and you can't follow with a ground push to force creep crawlers. Leaves pretty much Forge FE and 3warpgate nexus 0_o.
It'll negate much of pvp 2gate openings(besides proxy which won't be affected at all, as it comes before tech, and enemy zealot build time is also slowed. it's the eco 2gate that'll get screwed because stalker build time didn't change).
That will lead to more korean warp-in openings instead, because those are still viable with zealot nerf. However, perhaps a 10gate stalker now can kill probe and still be good vs 2gate.
Only good thing was nerf of tank damage vs light.
However...medivac heal rate? Barracks build time? Maradeur cost-efficiency?
Ugh. Come on, 5 seconds on reaper won't do jack. It's still gametime, it's like 2 shots fired at max.
Nerfing a build time of early game harrass unit by 5 seconds won't do much. In TvZ, where they are viable longer, it still won't change much as critical count will be reached nearly at the same time as before - resources are still there, longer build time = faster extra barracks.
TvZ helion threat is still there, too.
As a protoss player...PvP might get better, but might also get worse, I am not sure. PvT fast expand might still be viable(getting 3stalkers and 2 zealots slows you down by 10 seconds, but it's still a change, also new warps take longer).
PvZ is hell  . Whether you tech or try to push for FE, any early zerg aggression will be extremely strong.
Ah, Desert Oasis change.......well....idk, destructible rocks only will solve early game all-ins. Mostly 5gate in pvz will be easier to defend, rendering protoss completely fucked. Won't help vs reapers TvZ, they could stil hop through main.
And PvZ/PvT the more mobile bio or lings will easily destroy rocks. Better remove the passage altogether with indestructible rocks :|.
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Will 4 warpgate be enough now? Or do you have to make 5 warpgates now? As a toss player I don't mind these changes, I won't have to change my gameplan at all, however the zealot nerf isn't needed IMO.
PvP proxy rushes can't be stopped with building time nerfs, Zerg doesn't face much problem, and T has problems if they don't know how to deal with it, or playing steppes of war. 6 pool is going to be insanely difficult to stop on steppes, but I guess you can't play standard on that map.
I'm not so sure about the BC nerf, as toss it took a long time to get them, but they were very hard to deal with. Only a insane tech switch to VR, or pure stalker. Nothing seems game breaking and Id like to see how it pans out.
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On August 28 2010 02:12 Spawkuring wrote:
Terran nerfs seem reasonable. Not sure why zealots and ultralisks need nerfs though.
Because once Zerg get Ultralisks, it's too difficult to stop them.
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I see no reason to build Siege Tanks anymore.
They literally barely do enough damage for their build time to warrant them as is. While they may have been *slightly* too powerful, they are officially useless against anything.
Tanks no longer 1 shot Zerglings, Marines, Probes, or SCVs.
Seems good blizzard. Let's nerf the premier T2 Terran ground control unit to a point where it cannot kill the weakest units in the game without help.
Congrats, Zerg! Y'all will finally find out most of you still can't o win to the even less existent TvZ imba just because you have poor play.
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I'm as always not qualified to talk about the changes, but I have to say that this really reminds me of the beta patch threads. You've got people saying that every race will be OP, people saying that they ACTUALLY had to nerf X and ACTUALLY had to nerf Y, and every new page you have someone saying something completely different and random.
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Wow, I felt terran is strong, but that tank change is going to allow zergs to dominate them in my opinion. Zerglings are going to live SOOOOO much longer and that will be very hard to deal with.
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i would like if they are doing this. to maybe, make warp cooldown 33 seconds, and increase in the warp in time so it makes them out the extra 5 seconds later, that way, protoss vs protoss. if he proxy pylons, your production abilities are the same and there are no (almost no) defenders advantage, but with the 5 second warpin time, hes limited to where he can warpin and those units are vulnerable, creating a defenders advantage.
would be a slight change for the better in pvp imo.
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"One general change we're making is that friendly units will no longer provide vision after being killed. Enemy units previously revealed will no longer be targetable. Now let's break down the additional balance changes we're implementing."
Can anyone explain to me?
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On August 28 2010 03:02 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 02:59 Housemd wrote:On August 28 2010 02:50 R0YAL wrote:Yay i like these changes but there are more things id like to see such as 1) tech lab time increased to equal reactor 2) BC build time increased to 110 3) Bunker build time increased by 10 seconds OR salvage returns 75% resources from 100% These arnt hate-on Terran nerfs for I am but a mere unbiased random player, I just think it would be better balanced the only problem with #1 is that increasing the time will mean that reaper harass will be absolutely pointless then and reapers will be useless since they arent able to get out on the field early enough. i havent played the game for a while (studies) and understand that reapers are op. However the nerf you stated will just completely destroy the usage of the reaper. hmm...#3 well increasing the build time wont matter too much since it will be the same in the end (make a bunker, defend, and salvage for absolutely nothing.) 75% is fine imo maybe 80%. Maybe players should stop using reapers only early game and start using them more creatively throughout the entirety of the game.
yea, but i mean sc2 has been out for less than a month. You cant just expect players to make changes to their gameplay that quick. It took sc years to evolve. You saying that increasing the build time of the tech lab will balance stuff. It wont since no one has found a good way to implement reapers late game other than scouting/maybe killing a few peons. You've got to let the game evolve.
and another poster said that this will screw timings, then you said it will help to make the game balanced. Hmmmm....when a person has to regrow their timings it causes the game to become unbalanced.
and with this suggestion, t's may die to early stalker/roach rushes.
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There will be ZERO tanks made against Protoss now. Goodbye mechplay. Hello bio + banshees.
Tanks need 2 hits to kill banelings or +1 lings. Oh god!
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Balance Changes
We have several balance changes in store. One general change we're making is that friendly units will no longer provide vision after being killed. Enemy units previously revealed will no longer be targetable. Now let's break down the additional balance changes we're implementing.
I have never encountered this problem, so I'm not really sure what to say about it. Anyone want to explain to me how this was even used?
As a zerg player, I will address my opinions on these changes from that perspective.
Maps
We're going to be adding destructible rocks to the Desert Oasis map to make natural expansions easier to protect. In addition, the center map watchtower area is being narrowed.
Adding destructible rocks does give some more viability to expanding on Desert Oasis, though to be truthful, I'm not sure how much that changes strategy on this map. I feel like as zerg, I am able to harass better. Narrowing the watchtower area in the middle, I'm not sure of the change, since on Desert Oasis I spend a lot more of the time fighting on the sides of the map.
Protoss
We have two key changes in mind for the zealot: the build time is being increased from 33 to 38 seconds, and the warpgate cooldown is being increased from 23 to 28 seconds. Zealot rushes are currently too powerful at various skill levels, particularly those that rely on rapidly assaulting an enemy base from nearby "proxy" gateways. We feel the window players have to scout for and fend off this rush is too small. We also want to address the problem of protoss being able to dump minerals a bit too quickly with the combination of warpgates and Chrono Boost.
This nerf to both zealot build time and warp in cool down seems overdone. Against a well executed 2 Gate --> 5 Zealot attack, Zerg is able to get roaches in time. Cutting the build time will only give zerg a further advantage in countering this opening. For late game, the warp in time decrease shouldn't hurt change the game too much, but a 4 warpgate push would seem to get weaker by this.
Terran
There are several changes in the works for terrans. Reapers against zerg are stronger than expected. Due to the zealot build time increase, reapers would be a bit problematic in combination with proxy barracks, bunkers, and/or marauders against protoss. Therefore, we have decided to increase the build time of reapers as well from 40 to 45 seconds. Fast reaper + bunker, or fast marine + bunker rushes are problematic against zerg. Although this rush would never outright destroy the zerg player, we feel zerg suffers too much of a disadvantage from either having to cancel the fast expansion, or getting trapped inside the main base for too long, so we are also increasing the bunker build time from 30 to 35 seconds.
Siege tanks in large numbers are performing too well in all matchups. In the mid- to late-game, siege tanks are too dominant against all ground units. We want a small set of light and unarmored ground units to perform better against siege tanks. With this in mind, we're changing the Siege Mode damage of the siege tank from 50 to 35, +15 vs. armored; to correspond with this, damage upgrades will be changed from +5 to +3, +2 vs. armored. This change reduces the base damage of the siege tank against light and unarmored units, as well as the splash damage.
Battlecruisers currently lack good counters from the ground and still perform very well against a wide array of unit types. We're aware that it is not easy to get battlecruisers out for the cost, but at the same time, it is possible in both 1v1s and team games to create stalemate situations to bring them out. Overall, we feel that battlecruisers are too strong for their cost, and the terran-forced stalemate situations are causing less interesting gameplay. We will be lowering their damage against ground units from 10 to 8.
Oh man, these changes are beautiful, at least from my perspective. Further increasing the reaper build time by 5 seconds means that it could take a whole minute before about 10 reapers are attacking me. Though it is also possible that with good control, this still doesn't change the matchup. Changing the bunker build times changes how bunker rushing works, but in a standard game I don't see the 5 second change making splashes.
The Siege Tank nerf however is wonderful. This specifically I see hurting any early siege tank push against zerg, as I should have the +1 carapace upgrade done, thus allowing me to survive a siege tank attack with my zerglings. Until the terran gets +1 to vehicle weapons, my zerglings will be much stronger against the Terran. Similarly, Hydras are now useable in the matchup, no longer dying to even a maxed upgraded Siege Tank.
The Battlecruisers always seemed rather strong against zerg, the match that comes into mind is TLO vs Idra in the KoTB (I forgot which round it was). Though corrupters are the only counter that comes to mind, I don't have any experience with fighting battlecruisers and thus don't have much to say.
Zerg
Ultralisk damage is being decreased from 15, +25 vs. armored to 15, +20 vs. armored. This reduction is comparable to the changes being made to the battlecruiser and siege tank. Like the battlecruiser, ultralisks are simply too powerful for the cost, even though they are difficult to muster. Also, in combination with other units, ultralisks are difficult to counter from the ground. The ultralisk building attack (Ram) is being removed because the damage rate is too similar to its normal attack, which will be used against buildings instead. When ultralisks target tightly packed smaller buildings such as supply depots, the Ram attack is actually outputting considerably less overall damage than its normal attack, as Ram only hits a single target.
Ultralisks are the backbone of my army in the late game, so I'm not sure what to make of these changes. Against bio, ultralisks rip marines down with its DPS and AoE, and are my main unit for fighting marauders (my army is mostly speedlings, banelings, and leftover mutalisks). Against mech, when looking at the Siege Tank nerf, the change seems to favor terran, as terran still does roughly the same damage to ultralisks as they used to deal.
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Amazing patch
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On August 28 2010 02:52 TheFinalWord wrote:
NOOO don't nerf tanks. MY WIN/LOSS RATIO will be RUINED. I'm loving that zealot nerf though, protoss had it too easy.
Thanks made me lol, even if your not trolling
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On August 28 2010 03:10 imPERSONater wrote:
Wow, I felt terran is strong, but that tank change is going to allow zergs to dominate them in my opinion. Zerglings are going to live SOOOOO much longer and that will be very hard to deal with.
so Terran might have to build a couple extra hellions?
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On August 28 2010 02:59 ganil wrote:
I mean... banelings don't have any counter anymore.
Wait. What? o.o Seriously, do you want to elaborate on that?
On August 28 2010 03:00 Asdkmoga wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 02:44 Parodoxx wrote:
Umm wait zerg QQs about mech for about a month then 1 tourney with reapers being used a lot and that gets the attention.... zerg QQ's about mech for about a month, then a player shows everyone the magic box, and system that has been in the game since release, and its fixed. people just needed to experiment, and i think they knew that.
I don't think players should have to rely on abusing a bad pathing AI quirk to 'fix' a matchup. It's just one more unintuitive extra micro thing Zerg has to do to compete, meh. And I don't think that really fixed anything except in the most immediately temporary sense, anyway. Over time, given no other changes, Terran would have simply adapted to it by countering mutas in other ways while still using tanks to shut down all ground. It's not like they're lacking AA options.
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Everytime i see a thread like this, there's only one thing in my head
" Oh, another FFA between tl's members about balances"
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On August 28 2010 03:11 link0 wrote:
There will be ZERO tanks made against Protoss now. Goodbye mechplay. Hello bio + banshees.
I never used tanks vs toss anyway. They are pretty terribad for their cost - ghosts are way more effective. But now that zealots are nerfed, I can just marauder push and autowin. No struggle at all.
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The zlot nerf is concerning. How do you stop a 6 pool? Standard play will involve butchering your eco just get zlot out. P has big problems vs t before you get your tech and this will just make things worse.
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EPT
