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nttea
Sweden4353 Posts
On September 15 2010 04:04 Pandonetho wrote: This isn't true at all. I got to D+ in SC BW but I don't think I could make it into Diamond at all in SC2. I'd probably be a gold player at best. you say probably so i assume you didn't even try, believe me d+ iccup WILL make you into diamond. | ||
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onionchowder
United States137 Posts
On the idea qxc mentioned in the interview, of a high-ranking-player-only discussion area -- I'd love to see that, why can't it be implemented? The Smash Bros community has a panel of elite players known as the "Smash Back Room" and occasionally they hold public discussions where they discuss and debate the metagame (matchups, tier lists, stage bans, etc.) in a publicly viewable forum. Why can't something similar be implemented here, in TL? | ||
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Fraidnot
United States824 Posts
On September 15 2010 04:04 Pandonetho wrote: This isn't true at all. I got to D+ in SC BW but I don't think I could make it into Diamond at all in SC2. I'd probably be a gold player at best. I refuse to believe that. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 15 2010 04:04 Pandonetho wrote: This isn't true at all. I got to D+ in SC BW but I don't think I could make it into Diamond at all in SC2. I'd probably be a gold player at best. You have obviously not played SC2 and have obviously not played vs Gold Level caliber players. I assure you a D- was significantly better than a gold player, assuming it wasn't like 500 pt D-. Assuming you could maintain around 800 pts, you would be better than a gold. | ||
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King K. Rool
Canada4408 Posts
On September 15 2010 04:09 nttea wrote: you say probably so i assume you didn't even try, believe me d+ iccup WILL make you into diamond. Well you CAN 4pool your way into D+. | ||
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TheWoodLeagueAllstar
United Kingdom617 Posts
On September 15 2010 04:10 onionchowder wrote: Good Post. On the idea qxc mentioned in the interview, of a high-ranking-player-only discussion area -- I'd love to see that, why can't it be implemented? The Smash Bros community has a panel of elite players known as the "Smash Back Room" and occasionally they hold public discussions where they discuss and debate the metagame (matchups, tier lists, stage bans, etc.) in a publicly viewable forum. Why can't something similar be implemented here, in TL? Because seldom few high ranking players know what they are talking about, the forum would be dead. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 15 2010 04:13 King K. Rool wrote: Well you CAN 4pool your way into D+. You can 7pool your way into Diamond as well. My roommate just got promoted last night by 7pooling, he now has 750 pts. | ||
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Satire
Canada295 Posts
I recently started playing SC2, and without a doubt I will get promoted into Diamond League soon as I'm winning many games against mid diamond players; this is meaningless to me. Because of my background, I play a heavy reactionary macro style and my micro is sub-par in comparison to many players. I don't rely on tricks, because simply put, in my development I am simply trying to get my macro clean cut so that I can learn fun things later. My focus isn't on winning, but rather on learning. I find that many players that I fight against simply lose if their initial 1 base fails because they are playing for a win rather than to learn good in-game decision making and crisp macro. In any forum/game where you have people who are in competition against each other, you will have an elitist mentality. People play this game to be good at it, and the higher you are in rankings (which are relative) the more your ego is inflated. However, at the end of the day, your advice and experiences are highly subjective. Telling a bronze level player a strategy that you do that works with absolute crisp timing, may not work for them simply because they don't your level of expertise. Likewise, telling a player above you a crisp timing that works brilliantly for you, probably won't work for them. People have different play-styles, and strengths and weaknesses. My strength in Dune 2000 was always being innovative and coming up with strategies that deviated from the norm. My in-game decision making was exceptionally strong and made up for my macro and micro deficiencies at the pro-level. If I were pro in SC2 (which I will never be because of time constraints) following this trend, I would imagine this would open up doors and avenues for me and close many others. I would not be able to have the same crisp timings and macro as IdrA. I would not have the fundamental knowledge and game mechanics of DayNine. I would not have the precise micro of CheckPrime. I would add my own style and my own personal touch to every game I play. All players are very similar, and only you can know your weakness' and strengths. No amount of cookie cutter build orders or numbering crunching is going to tell you that. In essence, what I am trying to say here is that advice should be taken with a grain of salt. Things that work for you, might not work for anyone else. Things that pros do, might not work for you. Giving advice should be taken in the same light - respect everyone and understand that your strengths and weaknesses open up avenues that might not be an option for other players. All experiences from bronze to pro can be learned from! Even practicing or playing against cheese strats are a very important learning experience in making you a better player. From pro to casual, you are always learning in a game like this, so your opinion is not absolute and is constantly adapting. Your ranking has no correlation to your strengths and weaknesses as a player. Even at the pro-levels each player has a wonderfully magnificent style to admire, and yet has tiny weaknesses of their own. Each person from bronze to pro should be respected as a player. Thinking that your opinions are weighted more simply because of ranking is a terrible mindset. I think everyone here from top to bottom could do with a basic kindergarten lesson of respecting others. For all the amazing and innovative ideas that come out of these threads about timings, counters, and build orders, it's astounding how the simplest of lessons is somehow lost... | ||
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Achilles
Canada385 Posts
This is a joke by the way. A sharp commentary on the delivery of information provided by those around the 600ish level diamond rating. | ||
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Monsen
Germany2548 Posts
While I 100% agree with your point of view, I personally don't think that there is any rating this phenomenon stops at, thus making your point moot- even a 1500 ranked player could have lacking understanding of the game (ofc he is less likely to). When I started playing Bw online (~2000) a better player I was training with at the time explained to me how dark swarm worked: "Only melee units can attack under dark swarm". I immediately thought: well Terran has basically no melee units- that should be totally overpowered. It took several years for me to see Dark swarm used in a Pro TvZ (Yellow vs Oov). Same with the fast +1 for Toss PvZ ... I think the only players I saw instantly "counterupgrading" armor were Kiwi and Mondragon. It seemed soooo obvious... When Nazgul, amongst others, invented the mass Zeal/Goon PvT style, and they wouldn't even bother with taking the gas at their expos, I thought: mining that gas has such a low cost... why don't they mine it anyway and use it for arbiters (at that time DT opening were still very common, and the tech step from DT to arb is really insignificant too...)? It took ages (2007?) until arbiters were implemented into the protoss playstyle. I'd like to think that I used to have quite a good understanding of Bw- I just never had the ambition and mechanics to make my ideas work. Even with some korean progamers, I often felt that their understanding of the game was quite lacking, while only their mechanics and memorized BOs were earning them their successes. Good luck though with your battle against players exaggerated opinions of themselves- you certainly are going to need it  | ||
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ElitePlaying
Greenland25 Posts
On September 15 2010 04:00 xDaunt wrote: I completely disagree with this. No new, "super league" (beyond the possibility a pro, invite-only league) is needed. Your point total in diamond says a lot about how good you really are. If you're sitting around 700 in diamond, then you can rest assured that you're not that good. If you're at like 1500+, then you'll know that you are very good. There's plenty of reason to keep playing and laddering. You are wrong. League points mean one big NOTHING. I've played against and seen Diamonds who have 700-800 points and are good and some with 1000+ that are not. Not to say this: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/469231/1/PsYcHoTiC/ - completely meaningless to use Points as some sort of skill comparison. He has 3750, who cares. That's called a game masser who still stays at gold..In war3 it had the same - 610-600 level 25 lal, playing like a tard that he was. All that matters is Win:Loss ratio and that's it, No league, no Points... But you are right, they dont need new leagues, they need to fix the current and make it so that after lots and lots of playing you reach Diamond, as it has to be, as it was in the previous ladder. Not make everyone can join DIamond at 20-30 wins or under. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On September 15 2010 04:17 Satire wrote: Each person from bronze to pro should be respected as a player. Thinking that your opinions are weighted more simply because of ranking is a terrible mindset. I think everyone here from top to bottom could do with a basic kindergarten lesson of respecting others. For all the amazing and innovative ideas that come out of these threads about timings, counters, and build orders, it's astounding how the simplest of lessons is somehow lost... I like your post, but this stuff is only true to a certain extent. At levels below diamond, most players will have only very rudimentary understandings of "timings, counters, and build orders." If anything, their understanding will be seriously skewed because they'll be playing against competition that has very flawed play. Thus, dynamics that apply in gold league play probably will not apply in diamond league play. As such, these players should be very hesitant to preach some dynamic that they have noticed in gold league play as being "gospel." The same holds true for many diamond league players. The success of a player in SC2 is dependent upon two things: 1) tactical/strategic skill, and 2) mechanical skill. Crudely speaking, some players will succeed predominantly because they are "smart" and other players will succeed because they have high APM. Many diamond league players are dumb as rocks and barely understand the game. However, they succeed because they're good mechanically and can execute one or two builds very well (I'm looking at you, 4-gaters). These players, as well, should hesitate to presume to be authoritative on strategic/balance issues. The problem, and the reason why this thread was started in the first place, is that a lot of players were making posts that they should not have been making in which they claimed things that simply did not hold up or were flatly untrue. These posts, to be polite, are unhelpful and counterproductive. This isn't to say that these players shouldn't contribute their ideas. To the contrary, they should. However, if they're going to assert something, they better be able to fully explain and support it. A half-cocked "X beats Y" probably isn't going to cut it unless it's something blatantly obvious and accepted. In fact, I bet that if players actually take the time to think through what they're posting before they post it, they'll catch themselves before they post anything stupid, which will make this entire issue moot. | ||
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EriktheGuy
Canada132 Posts
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ZapRoffo
United States5544 Posts
On September 15 2010 04:41 ElitePlaying wrote: You are wrong. League points mean one big NOTHING. I've played against and seen Diamonds who have 700-800 points and are good and some with 1000+ that are not. Not to say this: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/469231/1/PsYcHoTiC/ - completely meaningless to use Points as some sort of skill comparison. He has 3750, who cares. That's called a game masser who still stays at gold..In war3 it had the same - 610-600 level 25 lal, playing like a tard that he was. All that matters is Win:Loss ratio and that's it, No league, no Points... But you are right, they dont need new leagues, they need to fix the current and make it so that after lots and lots of playing you reach Diamond, as it has to be, as it was in the previous ladder. Not make everyone can join DIamond at 20-30 wins or under. That 3750 is achievement points. That guy has 1100 points in his gold league if you look on leagues and ladders, which seems average for a large amount of games. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 15 2010 04:41 ElitePlaying wrote: You are wrong. League points mean one big NOTHING. I've played against and seen Diamonds who have 700-800 points and are good and some with 1000+ that are not. Not to say this: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/469231/1/PsYcHoTiC/ - completely meaningless to use Points as some sort of skill comparison. He has 3750, who cares. That's called a game masser who still stays at gold..In war3 it had the same - 610-600 level 25 lal, playing like a tard that he was. All that matters is Win:Loss ratio and that's it, No league, no Points... But you are right, they dont need new leagues, they need to fix the current and make it so that after lots and lots of playing you reach Diamond, as it has to be, as it was in the previous ladder. Not make everyone can join DIamond at 20-30 wins or under. You are simply ignorant if you think points mean nothing. They may not be the best indicator, or even a great indicator (although I think they are indeed a great indicator), but they are definitely SOME sort of indicator. Also, unless you friend or whoever you know around 700 pts diamond just simply isn't playing the ladder and thus his score doesn't reflect his actual rank, then he is NOT a good player. If you are stuck at the 700 pt section on diamond ladder you are not a good player. Simple as that. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On September 15 2010 04:14 Frack wrote: Because seldom few high ranking players know what they are talking about, the forum would be dead.  | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
Case in point, I'm in diamond, and I suck at this game. I'm just now learning to scout effectively. EDIT: I get the weird feeling that most diamond players consider themselves to be a half step below WhiteRa or some ridiculous shit. You're in the top like 7% of a million person playerbase, you aren't special and neither am I. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 15 2010 05:23 Offhand wrote: There's nothing special about diamond league. Case in point, I'm in diamond, and I suck at this game. I'm just now learning to scout effectively. EDIT: I get the weird feeling that most diamond players consider themselves to be a half step below WhiteRa or some ridiculous shit. You're in the top like 7% of a million person playerbase, you aren't special and neither am I. Of which how many aren't even actively playing ladder... | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On September 15 2010 05:30 FabledIntegral wrote: Of which how many aren't even actively playing ladder... SC2 sold something like 3 million copies in it's first week IIRC. If even a third to a forth of those people play the ladder then being in diamond puts you at the top 100,000 players. Not impressive by any means. | ||
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
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