EPTBecause you know, if you say only huk-level players should talk and mid diamond should shut up, I'll just say only ogsthestc level players should talk and huk level players should shut up. And no one wants to learn korean for this shizzle.
The Truth About Diamond League - Page 39
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Schwopzi
Netherlands954 Posts
Because you know, if you say only huk-level players should talk and mid diamond should shut up, I'll just say only ogsthestc level players should talk and huk level players should shut up. And no one wants to learn korean for this shizzle. | ||
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Cr4zyJeff
United States18 Posts
On August 27 2010 11:51 Artosis wrote: WELL SAID. Artosis hath spoken. Ye who doubt the OP's authority shall heed his post. On topic tho, I completely agree with Saracen. However, I'm at ~700 Platinum right now, but I was D on ICCup in Brood War, but only played competitively for maybe... 1.5 seasons? I'm inches away from getting into Diamond (I hope), and I've gotten there by trying to improve my play. I'm trying to understand the theory behind making decisions and win without using some gimmick that allows anyone with half a brain to dominate their way into ~800 Diamond, and naturally I lose to a lot of cheese, rushes, and all-ins. I rarely do 4gate all-ins and I think I canon rushed once, and lost because I didn't care about the game and wasn't having fun. I take comfort in knowing that when I get to Diamond, I'll be a much better player than my initial opponents. I actually got into a huge argument with a friend who got into Diamond before me, but did so playing random and doing 4Gate, Proxy 2gate, Proxy Barracks, Baneling Bust, and 6Pool. Naturally he replied with the typical ignorant, "If it works why not do it." and the classic, "its not a cheese, I'm just playing with my own unique style." He tried to tell me that if he was the best "short game" player in the world, and he faced the best "long game" player in the world, he would win if....-- and here's the hilarious part-- "he does enough damage with the rush!" I immediately lol'd, and he ignorantly refused to acknowledge my point that once he starts playing people who know how to stop the rush, he'll stagnate.. and have to actually become mechanically sound, and understand the game. He rambled on about how if someone stops his rush he would "adapt" and still come out on top. At this point, i immediately gave up arguing. Because his head was so thick with what I will now refer to as "Ego-litism," nothing I could say would sway him to go on Liquipedia and read the articles on "Threat", "Macro", and "Tactical vs Strategic Advantage".** Well there's my \agree and \rage post for the day. **Great things to read for any players looking to actually understand the game, I HIGHLY recommend this. | ||
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VorcePA
United States1102 Posts
On August 27 2010 14:12 guyGOTgirth wrote: Meh, I think we will agree to disagree. I think being in the top 10% etc, does mean something. It means out of every 10 people that ladder, you are better than 9, etc. How can you say that those players are bad, even if they do fail to do X (insert one of the points on how to play an RTS game in general that you indicated). Just because they aren't a pro doesn't mean they aren't gooooooood compared to the general public. I think we are just bastards about admitting it. We don't want to give more fuel to feed diamond egos right? What I said in my original post: EDIT: I'm not saying I would prefer to hear a shit diamond talk about strategy over the REAL cream of the crop. However until the real cream of the crop come down from Mount Blizzard then diamonds are a fine proxy for how to crush the general public. It stops working when you reach a certain level right? If not you are all noobs and die to the Korean 4 gate woot woot woot Being in the top 10% includes a good portion of platinum players (~3% of the total playerbase). Diamond league only accounts for about 6.5% of the playerbase, and it's been said many times across an innumerable number of threads: getting in to Diamond is easy. Through cheese like proxy rax/gate, 6 pooling, or by knowing how to execute a build order even haphazardly, you can get in to the Diamond league. I've come to the conclusion that while the ladder system isn't perfect, sc2ranks.com's datamining and global ranking has certainly helped identify a strong player vs. a weak one. Now, instead of the top 10%, which is 89,000+ players, you could take the top 10,000, which is a little over 1% of the total 1v1 players. These are the people who, more than likely, know how to counter, when to expand, keep their minerals fairly low (I'm like rank ~7,000 and I think my macro is fucking trash), can execute a solid build order, and can adapt that build order to what their opponent is doing. Beyond, I would guess, say, the top 500 -- people who use the laddering system for fun more than anything. People like Idra and Huk and all the current big names stay on the top probably just because they can, and get their real practice through custom games. Between the 500-10,000, though, are probably people who have a solid understanding of the game in its current form, and I would guess are the cream of the crop for game insight. | ||
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tbrown47
United States1235 Posts
diamond is nothing special at all edit: came off a bit harsh. what im saying is there is a huge difference between a diamond player and a top player. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
I really don't understand how I could've been promoted after being incredibly low on the platinum-ladder; there were people with 70:40 wins, one dude had something like 120:120; I have read really A LOT about how the promotion-system works, but getting promoted as someone who wasn't even close to reach the top half of his division makes no sense at all; hell I didn't want to get promoted, I was just getting warmed up after my connection being screwed up for nearly two weeks blizz really needs to introduce a ladder "above" diamond as fast as possible, when even newbs like I get promoted to diamond asap then something is clearly wrong | ||
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Parrr-Agh
Chile31 Posts
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arb
Noobville17920 Posts
On August 27 2010 18:28 tbrown47 wrote: people didnt know this? diamond is nothing special at all edit: came off a bit harsh. what im saying is there is a huge difference between a diamond player and a top player. Pretty much, Being Diamond in SC2 isnt near the same as say being B/B+ or something in BW | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
all leagues are supposed to contain a certain amount of players percentage-wise; therefore the more people SIMPLY REGISTER their account - and if they play only one game online - the more newbs like me will get promted to diamond because otherwise the overall-percentage of people in diamond would steadily decrease therefore, the more copies of sc2 are sold, the more people will get to diamond, even if all these new players don't play online like at all; this is contrary to the assumption of some people that it will balance out and that bad people will drop out of diamond; I don't think so; I think the average skill-level of diamond-players will continue to decrease; wouldn't be surprised if at the end of the year the new mid-diamond was the old mid-platinum | ||
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VorcePA
United States1102 Posts
On August 27 2010 19:30 sleepingdog wrote: I've come to think about a different problem which would continuously result in the diamond-league getting worse (not sure if it was posted before) all leagues are supposed to contain a certain amount of players percentage-wise; therefore the more people SIMPLY REGISTER their account - and if they play only one game online - the more newbs like me will get promted to diamond because otherwise the overall-percentage of people in diamond would steadily decrease therefore, the more copies of sc2 are sold, the more people will get to diamond, even if all these new players don't play online like at all; this is contrary to the assumption of some people that it will balance out and that bad people will drop out of diamond; I don't think so; I think the average skill-level of diamond-players will continue to decrease; wouldn't be surprised if at the end of the year the new mid-diamond was the old mid-platinum More people will get to diamond, but the percent of players will not increase. As more people join the ladder, more divisions are created, thus keeping the ratio of players per division the same. | ||
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Schwopzi
Netherlands954 Posts
On August 27 2010 19:30 sleepingdog wrote: I've come to think about a different problem which would continuously result in the diamond-league getting worse (not sure if it was posted before) all leagues are supposed to contain a certain amount of players percentage-wise; therefore the more people SIMPLY REGISTER their account - and if they play only one game online - the more newbs like me will get promted to diamond because otherwise the overall-percentage of people in diamond would steadily decrease therefore, the more copies of sc2 are sold, the more people will get to diamond, even if all these new players don't play online like at all; this is contrary to the assumption of some people that it will balance out and that bad people will drop out of diamond; I don't think so; I think the average skill-level of diamond-players will continue to decrease; wouldn't be surprised if at the end of the year the new mid-diamond was the old mid-platinum I would be kind of supersuprised if by the end of the year the average skill level of everyone playing isn't much higher then it is now, unless sc2 gets a pricedrop for the holidays or something. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
I would be kind of supersuprised if by the end of the year the average skill level of everyone playing isn't much higher then it is now, unless sc2 gets a pricedrop for the holidays or something. define "everyone" - what I meant was, at the end of the year, everybody who posts here will be diamond; everything else won't matter, everything that counts would be the amount of points just imagine everyody halfway decent on ICCup being A+ to A- and everybody below B+ would be newb; that's how I think sc2 will be in half a year: points will be everything that matters because everybody will be diamond | ||
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AlphaOfUrOmega
United States28 Posts
On August 27 2010 22:53 sleepingdog wrote: define "everyone" - what I meant was, at the end of the year, everybody who posts here will be diamond; everything else won't matter, everything that counts would be the amount of points just imagine everyody halfway decent on ICCup being A+ to A- and everybody below B+ would be newb; that's how I think sc2 will be in half a year: points will be everything that matters because everybody will be diamond I don't know if everyone will be diamond; diamond is meant to represent the top 5% of SC2 players. Right now there are a lot of diamonds because the game just came out and there are a lot of newbs who just play the best game of the month and will switch when Crysis 2, Halo: Reach, etc. come out. This could be why there are so many cheesers or 70 APMers high in diamond right now. As people learn the game and the number of noncommited players drop, being in diamond may start to actually mean something. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
As people learn the game and the number of noncommited players drop, being in diamond may start to actually mean something. have you read other posts before that last one of mine? I specifically stated that the problem is, that people who once bought the game don't magically "disappear" from the overall group of people; therefore, the more casual gamers buy the game, the bigger the overall registered "gamers" get - therefore if the percentage of the people in diamond should stay the same (which it will, that's how the system is designed) the overall number of people in diamond has to increase you see where I'm going? even now many people (including myself) are in diamond and not really skilled; but since more and more people will get to diamond, the overall skill-level of diamond will decrease | ||
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Schwopzi
Netherlands954 Posts
On August 27 2010 22:53 sleepingdog wrote: define "everyone" - what I meant was, at the end of the year, everybody who posts here will be diamond; everything else won't matter, everything that counts would be the amount of points just imagine everyody halfway decent on ICCup being A+ to A- and everybody below B+ would be newb; that's how I think sc2 will be in half a year: points will be everything that matters because everybody will be diamond Oh by all means, I sincerely hope the new top player league blizz has been talking about comes rather quick and only consists of a small % of the player base (if only so you can actually know pretty sure you got a high level replay when you download one from that league). That said, does it really matter if you define skill by a-e/0-2000/bronze-diamond? (though having 4 leagues just for people without a clue would be kinda "meh") | ||
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Champ24
177 Posts
For example, a 6 pool is probably the easiest "cheese" to defend against and perhaps everyone up to high gold can fend it off (just for the sake of argument). As more and more people play more games they get familiar with how to block that. So say 6 months from now all silvers can fend it off. As you get to more complicated all-ins such as the Korean 4 gate, it will take longer for people to learn how to stop it. But they will learn. So the Korean 4 gate specialists who rock a 900 diamond rating will slowly start to fade as more people learn to counter their rush. It will be the individuals who took the path of understanding the game from a more broad respective who will retain or climb the ladder in their stead. I hope to be part of the latter group. | ||
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dusters
United States57 Posts
On August 27 2010 12:27 WormSy wrote: I totally agree with you, of course. I stoped beta back when the diamond league appeared. I was decent plat player, probably top 300 on my realm. I could own low plat players, and everytime I did a tourney and played against a top player (naniwa, socke and such), I got totally stomped, even if I scouted right, they just plainly outplayed me. I haven't bought the game yet, so I tried playing on a friend account (I'm kinda sorry for him), and I tried to up the account from mid gold to diamond the fastest way. He played a lot of game so the mmr only raise slowly, and you see a lot of players from each skill level. Basically, all I've done for 40 games was one base all in as zerg, baneling bust against terran, roach all in against protoss, and classic baneling against Zerg. At gold level, you CANT lose a game if you know the timing for canon rush and scout it (it happens quite often, I've it like 3 games within my 12 ZvP at gold / plat lvl). Every time my roaches / baneling bust would destroy my opponent. At plat level, you dont win every game in less than 5 minutes. Sometimes Protoss will hold off the Roaches with kinda decent Stalker macro / micro. But even if you start with the extreme disadvantage being one base zerg vs one base protoss and doing no damage, you expand, make some drones, macro some roaches and win. Every time. You cant lose because they can't macro anything past one base. At diamond level (I've stoped with opponent at 850 diamond), rush wont work 8 games every 10. But there again, they can't macro more than one base... The only difference between plat players and low diamond players is the micro on one base. I actually lost 2 games against diamond players, both against one base play (timing attack with 3 void ray, my hydra were like 3 seconds late, and timing attack with cloaked banshee, my mutas were 3 seconds late ...) and because my timings were slightly off (3 months without starcraft screw that a bit). So yes, every thing under 900 diamond is a joke, I'm pretty bad myself, and you cant say you're "good" because you're rank 1 diamond, or 900 diamond. You just can't. That's like saying "I'm good at WoW, I've just finished Nax and I can even kill Saurfang with 30% buff". Ok, you're 80, you've done PUG raid, but you suck. What's annoying isnt the bronze / gold / plat / low-mid-highbutnotvery diamond who try to share their point of view about some things in the game. What's annoying is that some players take their own words as the absolute truth, even if real top players try to EXPLAIN why they're wrong. And that's why it became really boring to read every post of a balance / strategy / build order topic. Comparing a diamond player to someone who pugs raids in WoW is very naive and utterly stupid. I played WoW for about 3 years, and I was in a few pretty good raiding guilds. I know that I was in the top few percent, and I was probably a lot better at WoW than I am at Starcraft since I never played SC1. Either way, the top 10% of the population should be considered good. Sure, low level diamond players may not be amazing, but they can still beat 9 out of every 10 players who play the game. Calling diamond players bad is like calling someone who scored a 32 on the ACT stupid. It just doesn't make any sense. Now, I do agree that there is a huge gap between the pros and the average diamond player, I just don't agree with the assessment that diamond players are bad. | ||
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bells
United States1 Post
A few days ago, I taught my friend, who was totally new to the game, how to rush to mutas. A few days later and we are ~400 points in diamond by DT/muta rushing every single game. In 1v1 I am a 500pt diamond player, and I suck. Sure when I really focus I can win most the time, but most of the time I lose to stupid stuff like proxy gates. I would get rofl-stomped by a real pro 75% of the time, and It feels like most diamond players are the same way. | ||
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Baby_Seal
United States360 Posts
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Genome852
United States979 Posts
There is a huge difference between high diamond and everyone else. The cutoffs for the leagues seem too low at the moment. | ||
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ChaosSmurf
United Kingdom175 Posts
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