I think all of this is getting blown out of proportion, so I think commenting on the issue would only create unnecessary controversy.
From Carmac "...Nada was in Germany to promote another game (not SC2) for his team Wemadefox. Kespa agreed to the show match as long as it was not streamed to Korea and was a local show match. Someone in Korea got ahold of the stream and was restreaming it on a Korean streaming site. Apparently Kespa saw this and called Germany to stop the match..."
A Fomos article suggests that KeSPA had nothing to do with it. The WeMade front office announced:
"ESL was holding an Avalon Online event in Germany, and we received and accepted their abrupt offer for a showmatch with Nada. He hasn't played much SC II, so we allowed the event under the condition that the match be unbroadcasted, but there is no truth to claims that we stopped the match.
There are some rumors going around right now, but it was not WeMade or KeSPA that halted the games. Nada GG'd out quickly in game three because there were network issues, and concluded it would be difficult to proceed with the match. Upon talking to the event administrators, it appears that there was incorrect information about KeSPA relayed to the ESL staff."
So, with two differing stories, ESL people, PLEASE CLARIFY.
Mod Edit:
On August 21 2010 20:09 Kennigit wrote: Yeah just confirmed with carmac.
Game was restreamed to Korea. Kespa found out, called wemade fox Boom Game done.
WTF, the stream was brought to korea over an uplink with afreeca ... Is this a typical Kespa move ?
I mean, Ongamenet will show GSL, it looks like kespa trys to stop sc2 in any cases... Kespa must really hate SC2, and i guess this is an example to not make "pro-gamer license" imo.
KeSPA has a bad attitude against the people who own the original rights to Starcraft and actually created the game. I don't care how much they've put in to the eSports community, they've been huge dicks about control, shutting down GOM streaming Brood War and trying to win the game's rights. They deserve it, and they're just butt-hurt now.
kespa is just preserving its position in esports. they have the big names and if blizzard wants those names to take part in sc2 they need to throw kespa a bone. i would do the same if i was kespa, its business and kespa is a huge organization employing lots of people, their not gonna lose their jobs without a fight.
and i think we'd all prefer kespa to have all control of esports and blizzard can go make another wow expansion, because honestly kespa actually cares about esports.
can someone explain a little in depth about what just happened? how does kespa have control over what is streamed in korea? how are they able to stifle sc2?
On August 21 2010 20:03 BattleSheen wrote: can someone explain a little in depth about what just happened? how does kespa have control over what is streamed in korea? how are they able to stifle sc2?
<@Kennigit> NaDa was FORCED to GG out, because someone was streaming the showmatch on Afreeca (a korean streaming software). The KeSPA forced the people to stop NaDa playing any longer.
Kespa never cared about E-sports which is clearly evident from there 0 support of anything non Kespa-Sanctioned. thank god this useless organization is quickly getting flushed down the toilet.
they aren't controlling what is streamed, from what i understand they simply said 'nada stop playing or you lose your money' :3 such a below the belt move on their part honestly.
Well to be honest he was going to lose anyways but how did Kespa force him to GG. Did they call the manager and tell him to tell Nada to stop or what? If so then they wouldn't have let him go to Germany in the first place right? This doesn't make sense to me.
Tried googling Kespa, brought up mostly stuff I cant read.
Havn't heard of Kespa before, can somone do a quick summary of what they do and why this happened? (for example-- why would IEM allow it to be cancelled? O_o)
On August 21 2010 20:07 G3nXsiS wrote: Well to be honest he was going to lose anyways but how did Kespa force him to GG. Did they call the manager and tell him to tell Nada to stop or what? If so then they wouldn't have let him go to Germany in the first place right? This doesn't make sense to me.
nada went to germany to promote avalon online for wemade. but a showmatch was an awesome idea come up by esl.
So,having a pro gamer license actually sells your soul to kespa? I mean,If I'm a pro football player,and out of my curiosity I want to partecipate to some other sport event,like,a rally, I can't?
On August 21 2010 20:07 KaiserJohan wrote: Tried googling Kespa, brought up mostly stuff I cant read.
Havn't heard of Kespa before, can somone do a quick summary of what they do and why this happened? (for example-- why would IEM allow it to be cancelled? O_o)
Type Kespa in the search bar right under the home link on the left navigation ;D
KeSPA > Bnet 2.0, atleast they could play that match again
fucking ridiculous
I was waiting for that match all day long and now this.. the first 2 games were very interesting!
there's about 10 pages about it in the IEM day 4 thread.
To sum the events up once more: Kespa is an organisation that has contracts with every pro-player in korea and they only agreed to the showmatch if it is not steamed to korea. Someone restreamed it to korea and they pulled the plug by calling to colonge and telling NaDa to stop playing. Since he has a contract with kespa he had to stop or risk penalties. (This is a basic version, I'm don't know too much details about the system of kespa since I only follow the scene since about a year)
Yes, any organisation that forces children to forego all social life, work long hours every day of the week and basicly end their careers before 25 are good, and no, i'm not talking about taiwan shoe-factories :D
On August 21 2010 20:07 G3nXsiS wrote: Well to be honest he was going to lose anyways but how did Kespa force him to GG. Did they call the manager and tell him to tell Nada to stop or what? If so then they wouldn't have let him go to Germany in the first place right? This doesn't make sense to me.
nada went to germany to promote avalon online for wemade. but a showmatch was an awesome idea come up by esl.
shame kespa power tripped and this occured.
Ah yeah I forgot about that but I mean Nada was going to lose and the game was almost over anyways after that I did not see Nada in the interview which was interesting. Can anyone confirm though that it was really Kespa that did this?
Not sure I would rather have Blizzard as a friend than Kespa though, Blizzard's attitude to SC2 has been just as bad as Kespas behaviour.
Both organizations need to get the fuck out of things that don't concern them, Blizzard need to get the fuck out of Esports and focus on making games and Kespa need to stay the fuck out of stuff that isnt BW in South Korea.
On August 21 2010 20:07 G3nXsiS wrote: Well to be honest he was going to lose anyways but how did Kespa force him to GG. Did they call the manager and tell him to tell Nada to stop or what? If so then they wouldn't have let him go to Germany in the first place right? This doesn't make sense to me.
Nada was in Germany to promote another game (not SC2) for his team Wemadefox. Kespa agreed to the show match as long as it was not streamed to Korea and was a local show match. Someone in Korea got ahold of the stream and was restreaming it on a Korean streaming site. Apparently Kespa saw this and called Germany to stop the match.
On August 21 2010 20:07 G3nXsiS wrote: Well to be honest he was going to lose anyways but how did Kespa force him to GG. Did they call the manager and tell him to tell Nada to stop or what? If so then they wouldn't have let him go to Germany in the first place right? This doesn't make sense to me.
nada went to germany to promote avalon online for wemade. but a showmatch was an awesome idea come up by esl.
shame kespa power tripped and this occured.
Ah yeah I forgot about that but I mean Nada was going to lose and the game was almost over anyways after that I did not see Nada in the interview which was interesting. Can anyone confirm though that it was really Kespa that did this?
Kennigit confirmed it a few post above yours. He's actually got sway, so he's able to provide a wonderful and informed source of information for us
honestly, how can anyone say Kespa cares about esport after they pulled the plug on a showmatch organized by the esl. If it was a blizzard showmatch or a blizzard tournament or even a blizzard related event, but this is just saying "fuck you" to the community in korea and outside of it
On a good note, NaDa fucking played starcraft 2 and he did an amazing game 2. Little exposure is better than none ;D I think this might be huge 8D down the line.
On August 21 2010 20:09 Kennigit wrote: Yeah just confirmed with carmac.
Game was restreamed to Korea. Kespa found out, called wemade fox Boom Game done.
how does a random stream hurt kespa?
Cause a random stream of sc2 with a big star in the sc is like giving the Korean people a taste of something new. Just like drug dealers give out a "taste" to let people get hooked. They do not want the public to accept sc2 through one of their teams players.
On August 21 2010 20:08 PlosionCornu wrote: So,having a pro gamer license actually sells your soul to kespa? I mean,If I'm a pro football player,and out of my curiosity I want to partecipate to some other sport event,like,a rally, I can't?
If its in your contract then yes you can't or else you lose your money. Its that way in any sport.
On August 21 2010 20:08 PlosionCornu wrote: So,having a pro gamer license actually sells your soul to kespa? I mean,If I'm a pro football player,and out of my curiosity I want to partecipate to some other sport event,like,a rally, I can't?
are you talking about football? then yes you can. if you're talking about soccer who cares go die.
On August 21 2010 20:14 optical630 wrote: someone needs to make a video translation of the interview after the game, the guy mentioned kespa a few times but it was all in german ;/
he didn't say much worth mentioning. Basically tried to explain who Kespa is to the uniformed audience after the news that kespa shut the stream down.
On August 21 2010 20:09 Kennigit wrote: Yeah just confirmed with carmac.
Game was restreamed to Korea. Kespa found out, called wemade fox Boom Game done.
how does a random stream hurt kespa?
because nada is a poster boy of bw (kespa). if koreans saw nada playing sc2 there would be a revolt against bw or something.
so kespa used their power of revoking nada's license or something to stop the match.
Sooner or later SC2 will become popular in Korea, certainly after both expansions are released and the balance issues are cleared up, new maps etc. Kespa are just fighting an uphill battle with this attitude.
This is going to hurt Kespa more then it will hurt Blizzard. Both are being childish, but this is preposterous. This will only get people good and mad, common people like us hate power plays more then anything else.
On August 21 2010 20:09 Narien wrote: Yes, any organisation that forces children to forego all social life, work long hours every day of the week and basicly end their careers before 25 are good, and no, i'm not talking about taiwan shoe-factories :D
No one forces anyone to do anything. They an easily quit the team and move on to their regular lives if they so choose.
On August 21 2010 20:07 G3nXsiS wrote: Well to be honest he was going to lose anyways but how did Kespa force him to GG. Did they call the manager and tell him to tell Nada to stop or what? If so then they wouldn't have let him go to Germany in the first place right? This doesn't make sense to me.
nada went to germany to promote avalon online for wemade. but a showmatch was an awesome idea come up by esl.
shame kespa power tripped and this occured.
Ah yeah I forgot about that but I mean Nada was going to lose and the game was almost over anyways after that I did not see Nada in the interview which was interesting. Can anyone confirm though that it was really Kespa that did this?
Kennigit confirmed it a few post above yours. He's actually got sway, so he's able to provide a wonderful and informed source of information for us
I wonder what ESL or Blizzard has to say about this. I hope day9 and appollo can give us more information later on. I knew it was kind of weird when Nada just GGed out of the blue like that. Even if he was losing hes the type of player who stays till the very end with the never say die attitude. ESL should have really talked in English when they did the interview.......instead of German.
On August 21 2010 20:09 Narien wrote: Yes, any organisation that forces children to forego all social life, work long hours every day of the week and basicly end their careers before 25 are good, and no, i'm not talking about taiwan shoe-factories :D
No one forces anyone to do anything. They an easily quit the team and move on to their regular lives if they so choose.
It is not so easy. Starcraft is mostly what they know. There are some that concentrate in school, but for the most part, practicing for 12-13 hours a day without studying will destroy their career opportunities. Of course they can still go back to school, but I am not an expert on Korean culture and society.
On August 21 2010 20:08 PlosionCornu wrote: So,having a pro gamer license actually sells your soul to kespa? I mean,If I'm a pro football player,and out of my curiosity I want to partecipate to some other sport event,like,a rally, I can't?
are you talking about football? then yes you can. if you're talking about soccer who cares go die.
This is a dick move unlike anything I've ever seen before. I didn't think it was possible for me to respect KeSPA any less, but again they found a way to make it happen. I hope the organization crumbles down to the ground.
On August 21 2010 20:09 Narien wrote: Yes, any organisation that forces children to forego all social life, work long hours every day of the week and basicly end their careers before 25 are good, and no, i'm not talking about taiwan shoe-factories :D
No one forces anyone to do anything. They an easily quit the team and move on to their regular lives if they so choose.
It is not so easy. Starcraft is mostly what they know. There are some that concentrate in school, but for the most part, practicing for 12-13 hours a day without studying will destroy their career opportunities. Of course they can still go back to school, but I am not an expert on Korean culture and society.
Its not like they hide the conditions of the B team members. The players know what they're getting in to when they join. Its like the people who want to be movie stars. They know that they'll most likely end up working at starbucks or wal-mart for the rest of their lives but they still try to be movie stars.
It would be extremely interesting to know how the Korean community is reacting to this. I bet kespa was trying to shut down the matches without their name being thrown in as this incident will no doubt just give more publicity to the games and make it more apparent how kespa is working towards sc2 not growing in Korea.
It's amusing how SC2 is the perfect opportunity for esports to become mainstream everywhere in the world and there's two companies that could potentially benefit hugely from this, yet they're both doing stupid shit and making it harder and harder for SC2 to succeed.
haha this is amazing. 1st Blizzard fucks up big in the last 2 days with their bnet 0.2 and now KESPA comes to their rescue doing even more stupid shit. <3
If they settled on stream in eu/us only, they "legally" could kill the game, but seriously, how realistic is the idea of controlling internet users in Korea ? For Christs sake, even in countries where internet is banned/government controlled you can "sneak things in"... That was failure waiting to happen with this decision.
On August 21 2010 20:09 Narien wrote: Yes, any organisation that forces children to forego all social life, work long hours every day of the week and basicly end their careers before 25 are good, and no, i'm not talking about taiwan shoe-factories :D
No one forces anyone to do anything. They an easily quit the team and move on to their regular lives if they so choose.
It is not so easy. Starcraft is mostly what they know. There are some that concentrate in school, but for the most part, practicing for 12-13 hours a day without studying will destroy their career opportunities. Of course they can still go back to school, but I am not an expert on Korean culture and society.
KeSPA, as far as I have gathered, also has been pretty much the only game in town, so to speak. If they were to quit their teams, it'd be highly unlikely that they would get to play in another major, since so many of the top dogs are a part of KeSPA.
On August 21 2010 20:24 SkelA wrote: haha this is amazing. 1st Blizzard fucks up big in the last 2 days with their bnet 0.2 and now KESPA comes to their rescue doing even more stupid shit. <3
haha, yeah its almost funny, bet blizzard are were thinking "phew, thank god KeSPA did this, else all the flames would be towards us!"
Hey Blizz, when you're trying to shove your own monopoly on a community you had no part in creating, you can expect that the people in charge won't let their contracted players advertise for you.
On August 21 2010 20:23 Tadzio wrote: Seems like an abuse of power. I didn't realize kespa controls rights for SC2 as well as BW.
I mean, it's kinda like the NBA's player's union telling Charles Barkley that he can't play a televised round of charity golf, isn't it?
just dumb that they have that sorta control over the korean BW players & teams.
I'm pretty sure Kespa controls the rights for nothing. The only thing Kespa controls are the players who are essentially employees of the teams, kespa controls the teams and therefore controls the players.
The players have the ownership of their replays in Korea under korean law which also makes those replays property of Kespa really.
Kespa has no power over anything other than to tell their players what they can and cannot do.
Just like any other job really in a way. If you work for Microsoft they turn round and tell you that using Google search is out of the question, even in your personal time, might sack you for it.
What Nada is doing by playing the showmatch is essentially promoting Starcraft 2 which Kespa don't want because if SC2 was to become more popular than SC1 it would give Blizzard total control over esports in South Korea - due to the lack of Lan features and the revised EULA which essentially means Blizzard own the game, all of the replays and all of the rights past present and future.
On August 21 2010 20:23 Tadzio wrote: Seems like an abuse of power. I didn't realize kespa controls rights for SC2 as well as BW.
I mean, it's kinda like the NBA's player's union telling Charles Barkley that he can't play a televised round of charity golf, isn't it?
just dumb that they have that sorta control over the korean BW players & teams.
The NBA can't because barkley doesn't work for the NBA anymore, but ESPN can if its in the contract.
Exactly my point. Does this mean that kespa's contracts with wemade, and by extention nada, include all other games? It seems weird to me that they can stop an SC2 showmatch if they're an BW-centric establishment.
On August 21 2010 20:20 hacpee wrote: Its not like they hide the conditions of the B team members. The players know what they're getting in to when they join. Its like the people who want to be movie stars. They know that they'll most likely end up working at starbucks or wal-mart for the rest of their lives but they still try to be movie stars.
Ofc not, but I still say that having to play for 10+ hours / day in order to stay competative is a little too much. Any employer that forces people to give up all social life is taking advantage of their situation.
edit: and by social life, i mean everything that doesn't regard playing (training) starcraft or surviving.
it was lucky that nada was in a 90% losing position in the last set when kespa dicked in if they had stopped the game halfway through a critical battle in set 2, people would probably go fucking nuts and murder kespa
Was a little bit of a dick move by kespa, I don't imagine anything illegal happened apart from the re-streamer himself, so it was probably a: "shut down the match or we'll never do this again", rather than a legal threat.
In which case why didn't they just cut the stream and finish the games?
On August 21 2010 20:08 PlosionCornu wrote: So,having a pro gamer license actually sells your soul to kespa? I mean,If I'm a pro football player,and out of my curiosity I want to partecipate to some other sport event,like,a rally, I can't?
are you talking about football? then yes you can. if you're talking about soccer who cares go die.
What Nada is doing by playing the showmatch is essentially promoting Starcraft 2 which Kespa don't want because if SC2 was to become more popular than SC1 it would give Blizzard total control over esports in South Korea - due to the lack of Lan features and the revised EULA which essentially means Blizzard own the game, all of the replays and all of the rights past present and future.
wow this is actually true! and i dont even realised this!
On August 21 2010 20:23 Tadzio wrote: Seems like an abuse of power. I didn't realize kespa controls rights for SC2 as well as BW.
I mean, it's kinda like the NBA's player's union telling Charles Barkley that he can't play a televised round of charity golf, isn't it?
just dumb that they have that sorta control over the korean BW players & teams.
The NBA can't because barkley doesn't work for the NBA anymore, but ESPN can if its in the contract.
Exactly my point. Does this mean that kespa's contracts with wemade, and by extention nada, include all other games? It seems weird to me that they can stop an SC2 showmatch if they're an BW-centric establishment.
It probably includes a clause that Nada can't do anything that would be harmful to Kespa or the WeMade team or the contract would be null, which would apply in this case.
BTW, no one is forcing Nada to do anything. Nada could have kept on playing if he wanted to. He would have just probably forfeited his contract.
a few years ago, a yankee player (baseball) was injured playing a home game of basketball. because playing basketball was a violation of his contract (for obvious reasons that don't really affect the sc1-sc2 situation), he was cut from the team and lost out on millions of dollars.
this is aaron boone being cut for a-rod, by the way.
On August 21 2010 19:58 Cedstick wrote: KeSPA has a bad attitude against the people who own the original rights to Starcraft and actually created the game. I don't care how much they've put in to the eSports community, they've been huge dicks about control, shutting down GOM streaming Brood War and trying to win the game's rights. They deserve it, and they're just butt-hurt now.
On August 21 2010 20:36 choboPEon wrote: a few years ago, a yankee player (baseball) was injured playing a home game of basketball. because playing basketball was a violation of his contract, he was cut from the team and lost out on millions of dollars.
this is aaron boone being cut for a-rod, by the way.
nada is gonna get killed in sc2 its pretty dangerous especially on bnet2.0
On August 21 2010 20:20 hacpee wrote: Its not like they hide the conditions of the B team members. The players know what they're getting in to when they join. Its like the people who want to be movie stars. They know that they'll most likely end up working at starbucks or wal-mart for the rest of their lives but they still try to be movie stars.
Ofc not, but I still say that having to play for 10+ hours / day in order to stay competative is a little too much. Any employer that forces people to give up all social life is taking advantage of their situation.
edit: and by social life, i mean everything that doesn't regard playing (training) starcraft or surviving.
Again, no one is forcing anyone to do anything. Wall Street investment bankers probably work 100 hours a week. Do you see people weeping for them? No one weeps for them in fact. Playing 10+ hours is in fact what the players want. If they didn't want that, then they wouldn't be on the team playing 10+ hours. Why should you impose your standards and morals on what is right and wrong on other people?
Really bizarre that KESPA would even agree to the showmatch in the first place if it being streamed in Korea would make them go so apeshit. I mean they must have realised how easily someone in Korea could have set one up.
How knowledgeable are most Korean e-sports fans of events like this outside of Korea? Even if it hadn't been streamed over there is it really outside the realm of possibility that none of them would even hear of NaDa playing SC2? Since that's what KESPA objects to I mean.
On August 21 2010 20:36 choboPEon wrote: a few years ago, a yankee player (baseball) was injured playing a home game of basketball. because playing basketball was a violation of his contract, he was cut from the team and lost out on millions of dollars.
this is aaron boone being cut for a-rod, by the way.
nada is gonna get killed in sc2 its pretty dangerous especially on bnet2.0
kespa, stop the match at once!
there's no protection on bnet2!
no, it's silly, i know. i'm just pointing out that sports-exclusive clauses exist in other situations but they exist to prevent injury as opposed to simply promotion.
On August 21 2010 20:38 theqat wrote: That's an extremely misleading thread title that should be changed
How is it misleading?
it should be like KeSPA Interrupts showmatch or prematurely ends, something that isnt cancelled. it wasnt cancelled...in fact several games were played!
On August 21 2010 20:27 Jochan wrote: If they settled on stream in eu/us only, they "legally" could kill the game, but seriously, how realistic is the idea of controlling internet users in Korea ? For Christs sake, even in countries where internet is banned/government controlled you can "sneak things in"... That was failure waiting to happen with this decision.
I was coming to post exactly this. Kespa plays the villain so well, the only thing worse they could do is drown puppies with every decision they make. Instead of contacting Afreeca and telling them to take down the unlicensed/illegal restream of the event they shutdown the event. Imagine if that happened with every event in this day and age. Nothing would ever get televised.
It's extremely sad the current state of affairs and Kespa's fear of SC2. I understand them trying to protect their stranglehold on everything BW but, you don't do that by pretending that SC2 doesn't exist and that people aren't already playing it at a very competitive level across the world. They're going to be so screwed once the GOM tournament starts it's not even funny.
On August 21 2010 20:36 choboPEon wrote: a few years ago, a yankee player (baseball) was injured playing a home game of basketball. because playing basketball was a violation of his contract (for obvious reasons that don't really affect the sc1-sc2 situation), he was cut from the team and lost out on millions of dollars.
this is aaron boone being cut for a-rod, by the way.
This is exactly the situation I was thinking of. Players have these things written into their contract to protect the teams. The teams pay out a lot of money to the players, and they expect the players to look out for the best interest of the team in response.
It should be obvious that kespa had this in mind when they agreed to let Nada play the showmatch. There's noway in this day and age that it wouldnt have been shown in Korea,thus a staged power play was what us fans had to suffer with.
Blizzard's heavy hand bruised their ego and this was their retort. It's funny and sad how childish kespa is acting.
This was a big mistake by KESPA. Nada was maybe presenting SC2 to a few Koreans, but really, do you think that there are Koreans that do not know SC2 is out? On the other hand Nada was presenting Koreans and Korean style of play to all the world. As far as I know, he was only Korean playing SC2 on this event. Casters were also speaking of BW scene which could be a nice advertisment for it. And KESPA uses this oportunity to show the dark side of BW scene, and to show Korean players like puppets that have to fulfill every single wish of mighty KESPA
On August 21 2010 20:05 IamAnton wrote: Blizzard never cared about E-sports which is clearly evident from there 0 support of anything non Blizzard-Sanctioned. thank god this useless organization is quickly getting flushed down the toilet.
On August 21 2010 20:45 Renew wrote: It should be obvious that kespa had this in mind when they agreed to let Nada play the showmatch. There's noway in this day and age that it wouldnt have been shown in Korea,thus a staged power play was what us fans had to suffer with.
Blizzard's heavy hand bruised their ego and this was their retort. It's funny and sad how childish kespa is acting.
It's a big conspiracy!
No, I don't think so. But I do wonder what went through their heads at the time.
On August 21 2010 20:43 aimaimaim wrote: Kespa and Blizzard .. another dick fight ..
Kespa's move was logical .. but was a dumb move when it comes to PR .. a VERY VERY DUMB MOVE
This is what happens when broadcasting rights and businesses takes things seriously. I mean Kespa let them have the showmatch only if it doesn't get shown in Korea. So when somebody breaks the rule, do people really expect them to let it go? Come on, give them a bit of respect, they're not some amateurish livestream/ustream caster.
By making this move, Kespa has shown how serious they are about e-sports. It's in Blizzard's court to respond appropriately. If Blizzard doesn't, then it shows that Blizzard doesn't really care about e-sports. They just want the Starcraft community to do all the e-sports work for them while they reap the profits.
On August 21 2010 20:45 Renew wrote: It should be obvious that kespa had this in mind when they agreed to let Nada play the showmatch. There's noway in this day and age that it wouldnt have been shown in Korea,thus a staged power play was what us fans had to suffer with.
Blizzard's heavy hand bruised their ego and this was their retort. It's funny and sad how childish kespa is acting.
It's a big conspiracy!
No, I don't think so. But I do wonder what went through their heads at the time.
How is it a conspiracy? If a government ran organization cannot see how it was a 100% guarantee that the match would be re-broadcasted... then kespa really is stupid.
KeSPA don't have rights to broadcast SC2 in S.Korea right now.
A KeSPA licensed player is participating in a showmatch, which is being broadcasted in S.Korea.
Who's going to get in trouble if it continues? Obviously KeSPA.
It sucks that the match had to be cancelled but the only person in the wrong here is the guy who streamed it in S.Korea, and caused the chain of events to occur.
On August 21 2010 20:54 maJes wrote: Personally I think it's a fairly simple matter.
KeSPA don't have rights to broadcast SC2 in S.Korea right now.
A KeSPA licensed player is participating in a showmatch, which is being broadcasted in S.Korea.
Who's going to get in trouble if it continues? Obviously KeSPA.
It sucks that the match had to be cancelled but the only person in the wrong here is the guy who streamed it in S.Korea, and caused the chain of events to occur.
This sounds pretty plausible.. After all KeSPA agreed to NaDa playing in the show match originally.
I wonder if the korean community just saw that KESPA is trying everything to hold sc2 down in korea.
For blizzard, besides of the lan issues, i dont see why/how blizzard is effecting the esports community in any bad way. They granted the rights for alot of tournaments/streams/youtube broadcasts basicly for free. And in my opinion it was the right desicion to give the korean licence to Gom-TV, they seem to be much more liberal than KeSPA.
On August 21 2010 20:54 maJes wrote: Personally I think it's a fairly simple matter.
KeSPA don't have rights to broadcast SC2 in S.Korea right now.
A KeSPA licensed player is participating in a showmatch, which is being broadcasted in S.Korea.
Who's going to get in trouble if it continues? Obviously KeSPA.
It sucks that the match had to be cancelled but the only person in the wrong here is the guy who streamed it in S.Korea, and caused the chain of events to occur.
This sounds pretty plausible.. After all KeSPA agreed to NaDa playing in the show match originally.
Why didn't KeSPA do the logical action and order afreeca or whatever to shut down the person streaming the stream? It would have been less of a hassle and we wouldn't have all of this drama.
On August 21 2010 20:45 Renew wrote: It should be obvious that kespa had this in mind when they agreed to let Nada play the showmatch. There's noway in this day and age that it wouldnt have been shown in Korea,thus a staged power play was what us fans had to suffer with.
Blizzard's heavy hand bruised their ego and this was their retort. It's funny and sad how childish kespa is acting.
It's a big conspiracy!
No, I don't think so. But I do wonder what went through their heads at the time.
How is it a conspiracy? If a government ran organization cannot see how it was a 100% guarantee that the match would be re-broadcasted... then kespa really is stupid.
The stupidity is on ESL's part since they're the ones that accepted the conditions. They're the ones who assured Kespa that they can somehow enforce these conditions. If you can't do a job well, that might as well don't do it at all.
On August 21 2010 20:56 esperanto wrote: For blizzard, besides of the lan issues, i dont see why/how blizzard is effecting the esports community in any bad way. They granted the rights for alot of tournaments/streams/youtube broadcasts basicly for free. And in my opinion it was the right desicion to give the korean licence to Gom-TV, they seem to be much more liberal than KeSPA.
Besides LAN? segregated realms with no cross-realm play, required permission for large tournaments (and fees), maintaining rights to any games played (and replays of said games), bnet 2.0 essentially releasing every player's bos thus eliminating original play and making practicing for tournaments a lot harder... should I go on?
On August 21 2010 20:54 maJes wrote: Personally I think it's a fairly simple matter.
KeSPA don't have rights to broadcast SC2 in S.Korea right now.
A KeSPA licensed player is participating in a showmatch, which is being broadcasted in S.Korea.
Who's going to get in trouble if it continues? Obviously KeSPA.
It sucks that the match had to be cancelled but the only person in the wrong here is the guy who streamed it in S.Korea, and caused the chain of events to occur.
This sounds pretty plausible.. After all KeSPA agreed to NaDa playing in the show match originally.
Why didn't KeSPA do the logical action and order afreeca or whatever to shut down the person streaming the stream? It would have been less of a hassle and we wouldn't have all of this drama.
I agree. How can it look bad on KeSPA if they went to Afreeca first? KeSPA looks even worse now compared to what they would have been.
On August 21 2010 20:54 maJes wrote: Personally I think it's a fairly simple matter.
KeSPA don't have rights to broadcast SC2 in S.Korea right now.
A KeSPA licensed player is participating in a showmatch, which is being broadcasted in S.Korea.
Who's going to get in trouble if it continues? Obviously KeSPA.
It sucks that the match had to be cancelled but the only person in the wrong here is the guy who streamed it in S.Korea, and caused the chain of events to occur.
This sounds pretty plausible.. After all KeSPA agreed to NaDa playing in the show match originally.
Why didn't KeSPA do the logical action and order afreeca or whatever to shut down the person streaming the stream? It would have been less of a hassle and we wouldn't have all of this drama.
I'd assume because the burden of enforcing the rules for the showmatch is on the organisers, in this case ESL, rather than on KeSPA. I don't really understand why KeSPA should have to monitor an ESL event to make sure their asses are covered on the licensing front.
On August 21 2010 20:45 Renew wrote: It should be obvious that kespa had this in mind when they agreed to let Nada play the showmatch. There's noway in this day and age that it wouldnt have been shown in Korea,thus a staged power play was what us fans had to suffer with.
Blizzard's heavy hand bruised their ego and this was their retort. It's funny and sad how childish kespa is acting.
It's a big conspiracy!
No, I don't think so. But I do wonder what went through their heads at the time.
How is it a conspiracy? If a government ran organization cannot see how it was a 100% guarantee that the match would be re-broadcasted... then kespa really is stupid.
The stupidity is on ESL's part since they're the ones that accepted the conditions. They're the ones who assured Kespa that they can somehow enforce these conditions. If you can't do a job well, that might as well don't do it at all.
it seems kespa contacted Nada and told him to quit , what could esl do about it? somehow force Nada to keep playing?
On August 21 2010 20:38 hacpee wrote: Again, no one is forcing anyone to do anything. Wall Street investment bankers probably work 100 hours a week. Do you see people weeping for them? No one weeps for them in fact. Playing 10+ hours is in fact what the players want. If they didn't want that, then they wouldn't be on the team playing 10+ hours. Why should you impose your standards and morals on what is right and wrong on other people?
This will go terribly out of topic i think, so I'll just say one last thing, just because they don't have much of a choice doesn't make it right, now i'm not very familiar with the economical / social / educational situation in korea, but to me it seems like many players play because it's a way to make a living.
anyhow, imposing standards and morals have been the US way of bussiness for the last 60 or so years. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad.
On August 21 2010 20:45 Renew wrote: It should be obvious that kespa had this in mind when they agreed to let Nada play the showmatch. There's noway in this day and age that it wouldnt have been shown in Korea,thus a staged power play was what us fans had to suffer with.
Blizzard's heavy hand bruised their ego and this was their retort. It's funny and sad how childish kespa is acting.
It's a big conspiracy!
No, I don't think so. But I do wonder what went through their heads at the time.
How is it a conspiracy? If a government ran organization cannot see how it was a 100% guarantee that the match would be re-broadcasted... then kespa really is stupid.
The stupidity is on ESL's part since they're the ones that accepted the conditions. They're the ones who assured Kespa that they can somehow enforce these conditions. If you can't do a job well, that might as well don't do it at all.
it seems kespa contacted Nada and told him to quit , what could esl do about it? somehow force Nada to keep playing?
ESL should be the one contacting afreeca to stop the stream. If they know that they couldn't do it, then don't accept it. If you accept a contract, you have to abide by it. People have to understand that this is serious business. Kespa could have let Nada continue and play and then sued the shit out of ESL. That would have been way more crippling to e-sports outside of korea.
On August 21 2010 20:45 Renew wrote: It should be obvious that kespa had this in mind when they agreed to let Nada play the showmatch. There's noway in this day and age that it wouldnt have been shown in Korea,thus a staged power play was what us fans had to suffer with.
Blizzard's heavy hand bruised their ego and this was their retort. It's funny and sad how childish kespa is acting.
It's a big conspiracy!
No, I don't think so. But I do wonder what went through their heads at the time.
How is it a conspiracy? If a government ran organization cannot see how it was a 100% guarantee that the match would be re-broadcasted... then kespa really is stupid.
The stupidity is on ESL's part since they're the ones that accepted the conditions. They're the ones who assured Kespa that they can somehow enforce these conditions. If you can't do a job well, that might as well don't do it at all.
It's literally impossible to enforce the conditions. In any broadcasted event, 100% of the time, there will be a rebroadcast somewhere on the internet.
ESL have more things to worry about than some kid sitting in Korea restreaming on an external platform.
On August 21 2010 20:54 maJes wrote: Personally I think it's a fairly simple matter.
KeSPA don't have rights to broadcast SC2 in S.Korea right now.
A KeSPA licensed player is participating in a showmatch, which is being broadcasted in S.Korea.
Who's going to get in trouble if it continues? Obviously KeSPA.
It sucks that the match had to be cancelled but the only person in the wrong here is the guy who streamed it in S.Korea, and caused the chain of events to occur.
On August 21 2010 20:54 maJes wrote: Personally I think it's a fairly simple matter.
KeSPA don't have rights to broadcast SC2 in S.Korea right now.
A KeSPA licensed player is participating in a showmatch, which is being broadcasted in S.Korea.
Who's going to get in trouble if it continues? Obviously KeSPA.
It sucks that the match had to be cancelled but the only person in the wrong here is the guy who streamed it in S.Korea, and caused the chain of events to occur.
This sounds pretty plausible.. After all KeSPA agreed to NaDa playing in the show match originally.
Why didn't KeSPA do the logical action and order afreeca or whatever to shut down the person streaming the stream? It would have been less of a hassle and we wouldn't have all of this drama.
I agree. How can it look bad on KeSPA if they went to Afreeca first? KeSPA looks even worse now compared to what they would have been.
Haven't KeSPA always struggled to shutdown illegal restreams? Rather than struggle for X amount of time to shut it down via afreeca, they just went straight for the jugular and killed it at the source which took less time (I presume). I mean they were already in game 3 and the game would have been over within 10minutes probably, by then the damage would have been done to KeSPA (assuming what maJes posted was true)
On August 21 2010 20:05 IamAnton wrote: Blizzard never cared about E-sports which is clearly evident from there 0 support of anything non Blizzard-Sanctioned. thank god this useless organization is quickly getting flushed down the toilet.
I must disagree with you here, why the hell must Kespa care for Sc2 ? It's not even an e-sport !!! (It may become an e-sport in the future but now it's just a mere video game).
Their name is the Korean E-sport Association, which means, they must only care for :
1> Korean (and not foreigner tournaments, events, or anything) 2> E-sport (which is now BW, and not SC2)
They care for the real current e-sport, which is BW, and that is good enough. Unlike some big fat video game corporation which has plans to destroy the real e-sport, BW.
For the move they made : if I was Kespa I will do the same : it is well within my right to do that and it does not affect my business, which is "Korean E-sport (BW)", and it will strike a blow to my enemy.
On August 21 2010 20:45 Renew wrote: It should be obvious that kespa had this in mind when they agreed to let Nada play the showmatch. There's noway in this day and age that it wouldnt have been shown in Korea,thus a staged power play was what us fans had to suffer with.
Blizzard's heavy hand bruised their ego and this was their retort. It's funny and sad how childish kespa is acting.
It's a big conspiracy!
No, I don't think so. But I do wonder what went through their heads at the time.
How is it a conspiracy? If a government ran organization cannot see how it was a 100% guarantee that the match would be re-broadcasted... then kespa really is stupid.
The stupidity is on ESL's part since they're the ones that accepted the conditions. They're the ones who assured Kespa that they can somehow enforce these conditions. If you can't do a job well, that might as well don't do it at all.
it seems kespa contacted Nada and told him to quit , what could esl do about it? somehow force Nada to keep playing?
ESL should be the one contacting afreeca to stop the stream. If they know that they couldn't do it, then don't accept it. If you accept a contract, you have to abide by it. People have to understand that this is serious business. Kespa could have let Nada continue and play and then sued the shit out of ESL. That would have been way more crippling to e-sports outside of korea.
What makes you think ESL accepted that it was their responsibility to stop streaming in Korea? If anything I suspect KeSPA is the one breaching contract as they probably agreed to let Nada play. However as the contract is not public we can't do anything but speculate.
On August 21 2010 20:05 IamAnton wrote: Blizzard never cared about E-sports which is clearly evident from there 0 support of anything non Blizzard-Sanctioned. thank god this useless organization is quickly getting flushed down the toilet.
I must disagree with you here, why the hell must Kespa care for Sc2 ? It's not even an e-sport !!! (It may become an e-sport in the future but now it's just a mere video game).
Their name is the Korean E-sport Association, which means, they must only care for :
1> Korean (and not foreigner tournaments, events, or anything) 2> E-sport (which is now BW, and not SC2)
They care for the real current e-sport, which is BW, and that is good enough. Unlike some big fat video game corporation which has plans to destroy the real e-sport, BW.
For the move they made : if I was Kespa I will do the same : it is well within my right to do that and it does not affect my business, which is "Korean E-sport (BW)", and it will strike a blow to my enemy.
You're wrong bro.
Electronic Sports, abbreviated e-Sports is used as a general term to describe the play of video games competitively. Other terms include competitive gaming, professional gaming, cybersports and V-Sports. Electronic Sports has been evaluated for listing as an Olympic sport by the International Olympic Committee.[1]
On August 21 2010 21:10 Cedstick wrote: Damn it, why does maJes have to make sense? I really wanted to hate on KeSPA.
lol there is still hope .. somwhere ..
on a serious note .. you can see how SC2 is being hogged by blizzard and how kespa is being hogged by blizzard and yet both still want MORE .. most if not all gaming companies, besides these two companies, would kill someone just to have 50% equivalent of the total of the fan base with sponsor and tournaments popping left and right for SC2 and How BW is in a country // greed is the reason why we cant have nice things ..
On August 21 2010 20:45 Renew wrote: It should be obvious that kespa had this in mind when they agreed to let Nada play the showmatch. There's noway in this day and age that it wouldnt have been shown in Korea,thus a staged power play was what us fans had to suffer with.
Blizzard's heavy hand bruised their ego and this was their retort. It's funny and sad how childish kespa is acting.
It's a big conspiracy!
No, I don't think so. But I do wonder what went through their heads at the time.
How is it a conspiracy? If a government ran organization cannot see how it was a 100% guarantee that the match would be re-broadcasted... then kespa really is stupid.
The stupidity is on ESL's part since they're the ones that accepted the conditions. They're the ones who assured Kespa that they can somehow enforce these conditions. If you can't do a job well, that might as well don't do it at all.
it seems kespa contacted Nada and told him to quit , what could esl do about it? somehow force Nada to keep playing?
ESL should be the one contacting afreeca to stop the stream. If they know that they couldn't do it, then don't accept it. If you accept a contract, you have to abide by it. People have to understand that this is serious business. Kespa could have let Nada continue and play and then sued the shit out of ESL. That would have been way more crippling to e-sports outside of korea.
esl probably didnt know what the hell is going on by the time Nada gg'ed. i guess kespa didnt bother to contact esl or afreeca since game would be over till they contact&explain situation and stop the illegal stream. they probably just called nada and told him to stop immediately.
On August 21 2010 20:45 Renew wrote: It should be obvious that kespa had this in mind when they agreed to let Nada play the showmatch. There's noway in this day and age that it wouldnt have been shown in Korea,thus a staged power play was what us fans had to suffer with.
Blizzard's heavy hand bruised their ego and this was their retort. It's funny and sad how childish kespa is acting.
It's a big conspiracy!
No, I don't think so. But I do wonder what went through their heads at the time.
How is it a conspiracy? If a government ran organization cannot see how it was a 100% guarantee that the match would be re-broadcasted... then kespa really is stupid.
The stupidity is on ESL's part since they're the ones that accepted the conditions. They're the ones who assured Kespa that they can somehow enforce these conditions. If you can't do a job well, that might as well don't do it at all.
When you wake up, you will realize that blaming someone else is the wrong way to go about things, especially _good_ business.
As an organization they should have / did known / known that an event like this was going to take place.
On August 21 2010 20:05 IamAnton wrote: Blizzard never cared about E-sports which is clearly evident from there 0 support of anything non Blizzard-Sanctioned. thank god this useless organization is quickly getting flushed down the toilet.
I must disagree with you here, why the hell must Kespa care for Sc2 ? It's not even an e-sport !!! (It may become an e-sport in the future but now it's just a mere video game).
Their name is the Korean E-sport Association, which means, they must only care for :
1> Korean (and not foreigner tournaments, events, or anything) 2> E-sport (which is now BW, and not SC2)
They care for the real current e-sport, which is BW, and that is good enough. Unlike some big fat video game corporation which has plans to destroy the real e-sport, BW.
For the move they made : if I was Kespa I will do the same : it is well within my right to do that and it does not affect my business, which is "Korean E-sport (BW)", and it will strike a blow to my enemy.
On August 21 2010 20:54 maJes wrote: Personally I think it's a fairly simple matter.
KeSPA don't have rights to broadcast SC2 in S.Korea right now.
A KeSPA licensed player is participating in a showmatch, which is being broadcasted in S.Korea.
Who's going to get in trouble if it continues? Obviously KeSPA.
It sucks that the match had to be cancelled but the only person in the wrong here is the guy who streamed it in S.Korea, and caused the chain of events to occur.
This sounds pretty plausible.. After all KeSPA agreed to NaDa playing in the show match originally.
Why didn't KeSPA do the logical action and order afreeca or whatever to shut down the person streaming the stream? It would have been less of a hassle and we wouldn't have all of this drama.
I'd assume because the burden of enforcing the rules for the showmatch is on the organisers, in this case ESL, rather than on KeSPA. I don't really understand why KeSPA should have to monitor an ESL event to make sure their asses are covered on the licensing front.
If Korean law is anything like European or American law, then it can't possibly be KeSPA's responsibility that an unlicensed third-party re-streams one of their progamer's games. The only one violating licensing is the re-streamer who obviously did not obtain a license from ESL to stream via Afreeca. Since Kespa doesn't have a license they can't themselves broadcast, but that does not mean they actively have to stop others from broadcasting.
You know im not even joking about this but bw players in kor should make a trade union so they're able to improve their conditions, rights and salaries and collectively refuse to play if kespa starts its nonsense with them. A system where the company in this case kespa has all the influence, leverage and control is never going to be good for players.
I guess all the people defending KeSPA wouldn't mind if ESL just cancelled the tournament since Tump and sc2.tv illegally restreamed their stream. Maybe also cancel an OSL playday if someone is streaming it outside of Korea?
You guys say Kespa came out of this one real ugly, but imo, Blizzard's NO LAN bullshit has really shown off in IEM, and I think every player agree how bullshit it is to have no-lan in tournaments like this one. I can not even imagine how irritating and spirit killing that must have been to pause till lag settles, or to suddenly be dropped.
Tomorrow I have forgotten what Kespa did, or atleast not think about it much, but instead have doubts about SC2 as a future esport.
On August 21 2010 20:54 maJes wrote: Personally I think it's a fairly simple matter.
KeSPA don't have rights to broadcast SC2 in S.Korea right now.
A KeSPA licensed player is participating in a showmatch, which is being broadcasted in S.Korea.
Who's going to get in trouble if it continues? Obviously KeSPA.
It sucks that the match had to be cancelled but the only person in the wrong here is the guy who streamed it in S.Korea, and caused the chain of events to occur.
This sounds pretty plausible.. After all KeSPA agreed to NaDa playing in the show match originally.
Why didn't KeSPA do the logical action and order afreeca or whatever to shut down the person streaming the stream? It would have been less of a hassle and we wouldn't have all of this drama.
I'd assume because the burden of enforcing the rules for the showmatch is on the organisers, in this case ESL, rather than on KeSPA. I don't really understand why KeSPA should have to monitor an ESL event to make sure their asses are covered on the licensing front.
If Korean law is anything like European or American law, then it can't possibly be KeSPA's responsibility that an unlicensed third-party re-streams one of their progamer's games. The only one violating licensing is the re-streamer who obviously did not obtain a license from ESL to stream via Afreeca. Since Kespa doesn't have a license they can't themselves broadcast, but that does not mean they actively have to stop others from broadcasting.
Oh I agree totally with you.
I just think that if any trouble was to arise from this it would be far easier to just go for KeSPA than to track down an anonymous guy restreaming.
Sometimes companies do odd things to cover their asses, I think this is one of those times.
On August 21 2010 21:09 Plexa wrote: Haven't KeSPA always struggled to shutdown illegal restreams?
It's the same with any sport. In the UK, domestic broadcasters aren't allowed to show football games at 3pm on a Saturday (originally because they want to protect ticket revenue from people going to watch games, maybe not so much a factor now that the bigger clubs' revenue mostly comes from other sources). That doesn't mean that when I'm watching Everton's game in a couple of hours, either via some p2p source or my local's foreign satellite, that the EPL will ring them up and tell them to abandon the game.
On August 21 2010 21:21 TechniQ.UK wrote: You know im not even joking about this but bw players in kor should make a trade union so they're able to improve their conditions, rights and salaries and collectively refuse to play if kespa starts its nonsense with them. A system where the company in this case kespa has all the influence, leverage and control is never going to be good for players.
This is stupid. How much money do you think there is in eSports to pay progamers more? It's not profitable and they run solely on sponsors money, so where exactly do you think the extra money will come from for any of this.
Between KeSPA having these control issues and Blizzard making it impossible for SC2 to ever truly be competitive, I can't wait for an iccup-esque realm to be set up, and the servers for said realm are hosted in some country like Sweden where digital property rights are pretty much ignored.
Then we can laugh at them both as the community runs the game the way its supposed to be done. :|
On August 21 2010 21:02 maJes wrote: I'd assume because the burden of enforcing the rules for the showmatch is on the organisers, in this case ESL, rather than on KeSPA. I don't really understand why KeSPA should have to monitor an ESL event to make sure their asses are covered on the licensing front.
You literally cannot prevent re-streaming of any event that's being broadcasted in any media. See UFC's troubles with ustream and justin.tv for some real world examples. KeSPA's actions were in no way appropriate.
Do we know why they can´t stream kespa players in korea? I mean it was a showmatch and not really a tournament game but maybe they just can´t broadcast any show with advertisments and sc2 in it?
On August 21 2010 21:02 maJes wrote: I'd assume because the burden of enforcing the rules for the showmatch is on the organisers, in this case ESL, rather than on KeSPA. I don't really understand why KeSPA should have to monitor an ESL event to make sure their asses are covered on the licensing front.
You literally cannot prevent re-streaming of any event that's being broadcasted in any media. See UFC's troubles with ustream and justin.tv for some real world examples. KeSPA's actions were in no way appropriate.
You're right, but if I recall, Dennis said that the conditions on the match stated that it wouldn't be shown in Korea, so the burden would fall on the organisers of the showmatch imo.
After reading this entire thread it just seems like the Korean peninsula has issues with absolute control. Kim Jong-il in the north and KEspA in the south. Blizzard doesn't have the best interests of a global community in mind and KeSPA just wants to survive in the future. Both are making dick moves but history is nothing if not an example of victory to the juggernaut and the fall of corruption. KeSPA is screwed unless something changes fast
On August 21 2010 21:21 crappen wrote: You guys say Kespa came out of this one real ugly, but imo, Blizzard's NO LAN bullshit has really shown off in IEM, and I think every player agree how bullshit it is to have no-lan in tournaments like this one. I can not even imagine how irritating and spirit killing that must have been to pause till lag settles, or to suddenly be dropped.
Tomorrow I have forgotten what Kespa did, or atleast not think about it much, but instead have doubts about SC2 as a future esport.
This has nothing to do with the thread, why are you bringing it up?
And I certainly won't forget one of the most anticipated games (for me) this year got interrupted for no apparent reason. I do think some are blowing this a bit out of proportion, but it was quite low of Kespa either way. Almost seems like someone at Kespa allowed it, and a while later someone even higher up went apeshit.
Its not like the whole S Korea was watching that stream - maybe 1-2-5k people at most, which is why I think KeSPA shot themselves in the foot with that move.
Anyways what done is done.
How is the Korean community responding to this? Any Korean here so shed some light on the matter?
On August 21 2010 21:02 maJes wrote: I'd assume because the burden of enforcing the rules for the showmatch is on the organisers, in this case ESL, rather than on KeSPA. I don't really understand why KeSPA should have to monitor an ESL event to make sure their asses are covered on the licensing front.
You literally cannot prevent re-streaming of any event that's being broadcasted in any media. See UFC's troubles with ustream and justin.tv for some real world examples. KeSPA's actions were in no way appropriate.
You're right, but if I recall, Dennis said that the conditions on the match stated that it wouldn't be shown in Korea, so the burden would fall on the organisers of the showmatch imo.
In that case ESL was really dumb for guaranteeing that condition. The only realistic way to fulfill it would've been to play the game in an isolated room and not showing any of it to the public in any way.
How is the Korean community responding to this? Any Korean here so shed some light on the matter?
this i want to know, i guess that kespa really wouldn't care that it appears as a massive dick move to the foreign community, if koreans are pissed (if they knew about the game in any decent numbers in the first place) it's somewhat different.
Seriously, Kespa has nothing to gain by letting Nada play in the first place. Because of Blizzard's control, they can't even get credit or recognition for the showmatch. So why exactly should they play nice when Esl breaks the conditions?
I must say, I love the way that TL.net actually researches these things enough to get to the truth rather than just universally rallying for mob justice.
I don't know what the truth is, but it sounds more plausible for them to cancel the match due to legal worries than to destroy the popularity of SC2.
On August 21 2010 21:21 crappen wrote: You guys say Kespa came out of this one real ugly, but imo, Blizzard's NO LAN bullshit has really shown off in IEM, and I think every player agree how bullshit it is to have no-lan in tournaments like this one. I can not even imagine how irritating and spirit killing that must have been to pause till lag settles, or to suddenly be dropped.
Tomorrow I have forgotten what Kespa did, or atleast not think about it much, but instead have doubts about SC2 as a future esport.
Cept Blizzard already stated there will be LAN in the future.
There's always going to be technical difficulties, but people find any reason to whine about Blizzard. Why isn't anyone crying that there was a power outage as the showmatch was about to begin? Because that shit couldn't be controlled.
This is the same argument we've heard over and over again. Blizzard is well within their right to have a hand in e-sports, as they're responsible for the biggest e-sports game in the world. Their handling of it is... questionable, to put it mildly, with a huge censor bar over it, and covered with chocolate and sprinkles. It's their game, they should get a piece of the pie. Both Blizzard and KeSPA are being idiots in the whole matter.
On August 21 2010 20:28 Hrafn wrote: Hey Blizz, when you're trying to shove your own monopoly on a community you had no part in creating, you can expect that the people in charge won't let their contracted players advertise for you.
Thanks Blizz.
A community built entirely on their product. You're saying KeSPA owes Blizzard nothing?
I can't believe all the posts in this thread taking potshots at Blizz like it's their fault KeSPA is full of dickheads. Keep hating on the company that made the game you play and love and paid for and go to this site everyday to discuss and watch streams and tournaments. If it wasn't for Blizz there would be no Brood War and no e-sports scene for Korea at all.
On August 21 2010 21:21 crappen wrote: You guys say Kespa came out of this one ReaL ugly, but imo, Blizzard's NO LAN bullshit has Really shown off in IEM, and I think every player agree how bullshit it is to have no-lan in tournaments like this one. I can not even imagine how irritating and spirit killing that must have been to pause till lag settles, or to suddenly be dropped.
Tomorrow I have forgotten what Kespa did, or atleast not think about it much, but instead have doubts about SC2 as a Future esport.
Well today Blizzard temporarily screwed up two matches out of 5 whereas KeSPA pulled the plug on the whole showmatch, but yeah, Battlenet 2.0 lossage affects all Starcraft 2 tournaments in the Future, whereas KeSPA's lossage Only screws over games with a Korean progamer in them. Those two make a awesome team when they act together though.
Final score for the bo5 TLO vs NaDa showmatch:
Players (Liquid`TLO and NaDa) -2 Greedy old farts hellbent on squeezing everyone for profit (Blizzard and KeSPA) - 3
The Greedy Old farts win the showmatch and will go on to face the general esports viewing public in the next match
To be fair, after all thats happened between Blizzard and Kespa I can see why they did this. If the shoe was on the other foot, Blizzard would have done exactly the same. There is a power struggle going on atm, and both of them are doing what they can to win the fight. Kespa is the main reason why Starcraft is as big as it already is and has grown to such a serious state. The fact that Blizzard doesn't half give a shit about it, makes Kespa furious and again makes them retaliate like this.
wow.... i did not even realized the sudden GG from nada has such a big story behind it... I do not realize kespa has such powers... so..... exactly what legal power does kespa have?
On August 21 2010 21:39 Hikari wrote: wow.... i did not even realized the sudden GG from nada has such a big story behind it... I do not realize kespa has such powers... so..... exactly what legal power does kespa have?
They are the ones who supplied Nadas pro gaming license and they're free to take it from him, essentially leaving him unemployed. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe that's how it is.
This is the same argument we've heard over and over again. Blizzard is well within their right to have a hand in e-sports, as they're responsible for the biggest e-sports game in the world. Their handling of it is... questionable, to put it mildly, with a huge censor bar over it, and covered with chocolate and sprinkles. It's their game, they should get a piece of the pie. Both Blizzard and KeSPA are being idiots in the whole matter.
i give credit for what blizzard and kespa DID.. but what blizzard is DOING NOW, to me, kespa gave blizzard fame, and they want to kill kespa .. thats not good .. what happened earlier in gamescon was just a reaction of a what blizzard is forcing kespa to do ..
On August 21 2010 21:39 Hikari wrote: wow.... i did not even realized the sudden GG from nada has such a big story behind it... I do not realize kespa has such powers... so..... exactly what legal power does kespa have?
They are the ones who supplied Nadas pro gaming license and they're free to take it from him, essentially leaving him unemployed. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe that's how it is.
so if that was the reason why they stopped the showmatch, Kespa should't allow Idra to play as well, but they probably don't care as much about him >.>
On August 21 2010 21:43 NeV wrote: so if that was the reason why they stopped the showmatch, Kespa should't allow Idra to play as well, but they probably don't care as much about him >.>
idra is not an active bw player anymore so he's not working with/for kespa at the moment as far as i know.
On August 21 2010 21:43 NeV wrote: so if that was the reason why they stopped the showmatch, Kespa should't allow Idra to play as well, but they probably don't care as much about him >.>
he is just a random white dude .. to korean eyes : white people look alike ..
On August 21 2010 21:43 NeV wrote: so if that was the reason why they stopped the showmatch, Kespa should't allow Idra to play as well, but they probably don't care as much about him >.>
idra is not an active bw player anymore so he's not working with/for kespa at the moment as far as i know.
actually i think Idra has still the progaming license as a brood war player, in fact some months ago he had to play the OSL preliminaries in order to maintain his progamer status. Playing Starcraft 2 is a concession his team is giving him
On August 21 2010 21:43 NeV wrote: so if that was the reason why they stopped the showmatch, Kespa should't allow Idra to play as well, but they probably don't care as much about him >.>
idra is not an active bw player anymore so he's not working with/for kespa at the moment as far as i know.
actually i think Idra has still the progaming license as a brood war player, in fact some months ago he had to play the OSL preliminaries in order to maintain his progamer status
You think that's wierd that he had to play? He's still in CJ and are using thier facilites right? KeSPA is higher ups from the companies sponsoring the pro teams, so if he is to use thier stuff and live in thier house. Why should'nt he go by thier rules?
I guess I was under the impression that KeSPA had effectively been stripped of all power over Blizzard's games during that whole legal scandal. Seeing their name pop up again makes my soul hurt.
I don't know if Blizzard would hold KeSPA responsible for the showmatch just because NaDa was playing, it still seems like IEM's fault.
This is retarded, seems like Kespa loves being assholes and ruining other peoples fun,
Won't they just give up already? Blizzard have won and they won't gain anything from ruining innocent peoples fun by cancelling a showmatch. Damn it Kespa.
On August 21 2010 21:43 NeV wrote: so if that was the reason why they stopped the showmatch, Kespa should't allow Idra to play as well, but they probably don't care as much about him >.>
idra is not an active bw player anymore so he's not working with/for kespa at the moment as far as i know.
actually i think Idra has still the progaming license as a brood war player, in fact some months ago he had to play the OSL preliminaries in order to maintain his progamer status
hmm i didnt know that , dont know much about korean sc scene. maybe he simply doesnt care about kespa license anymore , as he obviously switched to sc2 and kespa isnt messing with him as he already switched so they cant threaten him but there is no need to take away his license and tighten their active bw progamers list. again , i'm just merely speculating
On August 21 2010 21:43 NeV wrote: so if that was the reason why they stopped the showmatch, Kespa should't allow Idra to play as well, but they probably don't care as much about him >.>
idra is not an active bw player anymore so he's not working with/for kespa at the moment as far as i know.
actually i think Idra has still the progaming license as a brood war player, in fact some months ago he had to play the OSL preliminaries in order to maintain his progamer status
hmm i didnt know that , dont know much about korean sc scene. maybe he simply doesnt care about kespa license anymore , as he obviously switched to sc2 and kespa isnt messing with him as he already switched so they cant threaten him but there is no need to take away his license and tighten their active bw progamers list. again , i'm just merely speculating
he definately cares about staying on CJ and having his living expenses paid.
On August 21 2010 21:43 NeV wrote: so if that was the reason why they stopped the showmatch, Kespa should't allow Idra to play as well, but they probably don't care as much about him >.>
idra is not an active bw player anymore so he's not working with/for kespa at the moment as far as i know.
actually i think Idra has still the progaming license as a brood war player, in fact some months ago he had to play the OSL preliminaries in order to maintain his progamer status
hmm i didnt know that , dont know much about korean sc scene. maybe he simply doesnt care about kespa license anymore , as he obviously switched to sc2 and kespa isnt messing with him as he already switched so they cant threaten him but there is no need to take away his license and tighten their active bw progamers list. again , i'm just merely speculating
Idra is a no-name programer who is on the CJ B team. Do you think Kespa will actually care about him?
I'll have to be the dissenting voice I guess. It was reasonably generous of Kespa to agree to the show match in the first place considering how Blizzard has treated them regarding SC2. The one restriction they put on the match was not honored.
On August 21 2010 21:40 Me1234 wrote: stupid kespa, really hope someone finally stops them, so players can do whatever they want to do
Players can already do whatever they want. The difference is that KESPA is paying their bills. As long as the players want Kespa to pay their bills, they will and should do what Kespa wants them to.
On August 21 2010 21:43 NeV wrote: so if that was the reason why they stopped the showmatch, Kespa should't allow Idra to play as well, but they probably don't care as much about him >.>
idra is not an active bw player anymore so he's not working with/for kespa at the moment as far as i know.
actually i think Idra has still the progaming license as a brood war player, in fact some months ago he had to play the OSL preliminaries in order to maintain his progamer status
hmm i didnt know that , dont know much about korean sc scene. maybe he simply doesnt care about kespa license anymore , as he obviously switched to sc2 and kespa isnt messing with him as he already switched so they cant threaten him but there is no need to take away his license and tighten their active bw progamers list. again , i'm just merely speculating
Idra is a no-name programer who is on the CJ B team. Do you think Kespa will actually care about him?
He's still payed for by kespa, they could replace him anytime since there are loads of new promising bw players in South Korea. I don't see a reason why they should keep him.
On August 21 2010 21:54 KinosJourney2 wrote: This is retarded, seems like Kespa loves being assholes and ruining other peoples fun,
Won't they just give up already? Blizzard have won and they won't gain anything from ruining innocent peoples fun by cancelling a showmatch. Damn it Kespa.
Ruining people's fun? Kespa is paying the bills here. If you want to pay Nada's contract, then he will play as much SC2 for you as you want.
On August 21 2010 21:43 NeV wrote: so if that was the reason why they stopped the showmatch, Kespa should't allow Idra to play as well, but they probably don't care as much about him >.>
idra is not an active bw player anymore so he's not working with/for kespa at the moment as far as i know.
actually i think Idra has still the progaming license as a brood war player, in fact some months ago he had to play the OSL preliminaries in order to maintain his progamer status
hmm i didnt know that , dont know much about korean sc scene. maybe he simply doesnt care about kespa license anymore , as he obviously switched to sc2 and kespa isnt messing with him as he already switched so they cant threaten him but there is no need to take away his license and tighten their active bw progamers list. again , i'm just merely speculating
Idra is a no-name programer who is on the CJ B team. Do you think Kespa will actually care about him?
He's still payed for by kespa, they could replace him anytime since there are loads of new promising bw players in South Korea. I don't see a reason why they should keep him.
They can in fact replace him any time they want. Its just that he's so insignificant that its not worth the effort.
this is a kespa and blizzard issue. blizzard did not promote e-sports--keep that in mind. they are just trying to ride on something someone else discovered and promoted. and now this is what we got: kespa vs blizzard.
On August 21 2010 21:43 NeV wrote: so if that was the reason why they stopped the showmatch, Kespa should't allow Idra to play as well, but they probably don't care as much about him >.>
idra is not an active bw player anymore so he's not working with/for kespa at the moment as far as i know.
actually i think Idra has still the progaming license as a brood war player, in fact some months ago he had to play the OSL preliminaries in order to maintain his progamer status
hmm i didnt know that , dont know much about korean sc scene. maybe he simply doesnt care about kespa license anymore , as he obviously switched to sc2 and kespa isnt messing with him as he already switched so they cant threaten him but there is no need to take away his license and tighten their active bw progamers list. again , i'm just merely speculating
Idra is a no-name programer who is on the CJ B team. Do you think Kespa will actually care about him?
He's still payed for by kespa, they could replace him anytime since there are loads of new promising bw players in South Korea. I don't see a reason why they should keep him.
They can in fact replace him any time they want. Its just that he's so insignificant that its not worth the effort.
Well, each player does get their living expenses paid. He's just a leech in their eys
On August 21 2010 21:43 NeV wrote: so if that was the reason why they stopped the showmatch, Kespa should't allow Idra to play as well, but they probably don't care as much about him >.>
idra is not an active bw player anymore so he's not working with/for kespa at the moment as far as i know.
actually i think Idra has still the progaming license as a brood war player, in fact some months ago he had to play the OSL preliminaries in order to maintain his progamer status
hmm i didnt know that , dont know much about korean sc scene. maybe he simply doesnt care about kespa license anymore , as he obviously switched to sc2 and kespa isnt messing with him as he already switched so they cant threaten him but there is no need to take away his license and tighten their active bw progamers list. again , i'm just merely speculating
Idra is a no-name programer who is on the CJ B team. Do you think Kespa will actually care about him?
He's still payed for by kespa, they could replace him anytime since there are loads of new promising bw players in South Korea. I don't see a reason why they should keep him.
They can in fact replace him any time they want. Its just that he's so insignificant that its not worth the effort.
Lol. It's kind of weird to see comments like these because in SC2, he is one of the best. I wish they could've just switched over to SC2 right away. Would lead to more game development and stuff. Stupid politics... Blizzard makes enough money from WoW, do they honestly need to "attempt" to establish eSports when they can't even get BNET2.0 halfway decent? It seems like Blizzard is trying to fix things that aren't broken IMO.
I have no problem with kespa letting NaDa play a SC2 showmatch or just putting in their "veto", but pulling the plug out because someone restreamed the game is just not right. It's not like that was a unexpected thing to happen. Everyone here probably knew that the esl stream would be restreamed so kespa surely thought of that too. What Kespa did today was a planned move to show that they own the sc1 players and that those won't play sc2 unless Kespa wants them to.
On August 21 2010 21:43 NeV wrote: so if that was the reason why they stopped the showmatch, Kespa should't allow Idra to play as well, but they probably don't care as much about him >.>
idra is not an active bw player anymore so he's not working with/for kespa at the moment as far as i know.
actually i think Idra has still the progaming license as a brood war player, in fact some months ago he had to play the OSL preliminaries in order to maintain his progamer status
hmm i didnt know that , dont know much about korean sc scene. maybe he simply doesnt care about kespa license anymore , as he obviously switched to sc2 and kespa isnt messing with him as he already switched so they cant threaten him but there is no need to take away his license and tighten their active bw progamers list. again , i'm just merely speculating
Idra is a no-name programer who is on the CJ B team. Do you think Kespa will actually care about him?
He's still payed for by kespa, they could replace him anytime since there are loads of new promising bw players in South Korea. I don't see a reason why they should keep him.
They can in fact replace him any time they want. Its just that he's so insignificant that its not worth the effort.
Well, each player does get their living expenses paid. He's just a leech in their eys
That's a ridiculously stupid and offensive thing to say, especially since you don't know him at all and don't know anything about how he lives. Stop judging people and just keep your mouth shut to keep yourself from looking so foolish in the future.
On August 21 2010 21:43 NeV wrote: so if that was the reason why they stopped the showmatch, Kespa should't allow Idra to play as well, but they probably don't care as much about him >.>
idra is not an active bw player anymore so he's not working with/for kespa at the moment as far as i know.
actually i think Idra has still the progaming license as a brood war player, in fact some months ago he had to play the OSL preliminaries in order to maintain his progamer status
hmm i didnt know that , dont know much about korean sc scene. maybe he simply doesnt care about kespa license anymore , as he obviously switched to sc2 and kespa isnt messing with him as he already switched so they cant threaten him but there is no need to take away his license and tighten their active bw progamers list. again , i'm just merely speculating
Idra is a no-name programer who is on the CJ B team. Do you think Kespa will actually care about him?
He's still payed for by kespa, they could replace him anytime since there are loads of new promising bw players in South Korea. I don't see a reason why they should keep him.
They can in fact replace him any time they want. Its just that he's so insignificant that its not worth the effort.
Well, each player does get their living expenses paid. He's just a leech in their eys
That's a ridiculously stupid and offensive thing to say, especially since you don't know him at all and don't know anything about how he lives. Stop judging people and just keep your mouth shut to keep yourself from looking so foolish in the future.
I was just trying to explain why he HAD to play the OSL qualifiers. It's not up to me to judge if he deserves to stay or not since I'm not charge anyway. And who cares if it's offensive. It's the truth.
On August 21 2010 21:54 KinosJourney2 wrote: This is retarded, seems like Kespa loves being assholes and ruining other peoples fun,
Won't they just give up already? Blizzard have won and they won't gain anything from ruining innocent peoples fun by cancelling a showmatch. Damn it Kespa.
Ruining people's fun? Kespa is paying the bills here. If you want to pay Nada's contract, then he will play as much SC2 for you as you want.
Kespa stopped a showmatch they didn't even host/was in charge off.
They could have just stopped the stream instead of stopping the actual event(and/or sue the streamer(s)). Nada playing a single SC2 match for fun can't be that dangerous.
On August 21 2010 22:08 Dr3w wrote: Lol. It's kind of weird to see comments like these because in SC2, he is one of the best. I wish they could've just switched over to SC2 right away. Would lead to more game development and stuff. Stupid politics... Blizzard makes enough money from WoW, do they honestly need to "attempt" to establish eSports when they can't even get BNET2.0 halfway decent? It seems like Blizzard is trying to fix things that aren't broken IMO.
Blizzard is not a non-profit organization. They are a company. Suggesting that a company can ever have too much profit, or should stop expanding is ridiculous and unrealistic.
On August 21 2010 21:54 KinosJourney2 wrote: This is retarded, seems like Kespa loves being assholes and ruining other peoples fun,
Won't they just give up already? Blizzard have won and they won't gain anything from ruining innocent peoples fun by cancelling a showmatch. Damn it Kespa.
Ruining people's fun? Kespa is paying the bills here. If you want to pay Nada's contract, then he will play as much SC2 for you as you want.
Kespa stopped a showmatch they didn't even host/was in charge off.
They could have just stopped the stream instead of stopping the actual event(and/or sue the streamer(s)). Nada playing a single SC2 match for fun can't be that dangerous.
Well of course you'll say its not that dangerous. It isn't your money. When its your money, you worry more about these things.
You guys seem to not understand Kespas point of view. The most famous BW player, NaDa, was playing the new game SC2, Kespa is still heavily invested in BW, and still have great viewership. Kespa can't run with SC2 because of legal issues, so they want to keep BW alive. If the most popular BW player in history is seen playing SC2, they could lose a lot of fans and it would most likely hurt BW, which no one wants to see happen.
On August 21 2010 21:54 KinosJourney2 wrote: This is retarded, seems like Kespa loves being assholes and ruining other peoples fun,
Won't they just give up already? Blizzard have won and they won't gain anything from ruining innocent peoples fun by cancelling a showmatch. Damn it Kespa.
Ruining people's fun? Kespa is paying the bills here. If you want to pay Nada's contract, then he will play as much SC2 for you as you want.
Kespa stopped a showmatch they didn't even host/was in charge off.
They could have just stopped the stream instead of stopping the actual event(and/or sue the streamer(s)). Nada playing a single SC2 match for fun can't be that dangerous.
Well of course you'll say its not that dangerous. It isn't your money. When its your money, you worry more about these things.
What do you mean by money? Some random korean was streaming a SC2 event and Kespa shut it down thinking that they'd get in trouble CAUSE a random korean streamed a SC2 event. Kespa can't possibly get blamed for what someone unrelated does.
On August 21 2010 21:54 KinosJourney2 wrote: This is retarded, seems like Kespa loves being assholes and ruining other peoples fun,
Won't they just give up already? Blizzard have won and they won't gain anything from ruining innocent peoples fun by cancelling a showmatch. Damn it Kespa.
Ruining people's fun? Kespa is paying the bills here. If you want to pay Nada's contract, then he will play as much SC2 for you as you want.
Kespa stopped a showmatch they didn't even host/was in charge off.
They could have just stopped the stream instead of stopping the actual event(and/or sue the streamer(s)). Nada playing a single SC2 match for fun can't be that dangerous.
Well of course you'll say its not that dangerous. It isn't your money. When its your money, you worry more about these things.
What do you mean by money? Some random korean was streaming a SC2 event and Kespa shut it down thinking that they'd get in trouble CAUSE a random korean streamed a SC2 event. Kespa can't possibly get blamed for what someone unrelated does.
LOL they didn't shut it down because Blizzard would get mad, they shut it down so that Koreans aren't exposed to professional SC2 with a very popular player. They are trying to protect their investment in BW.
I still think it's a dick move, but I completely understand why they did it.
On August 21 2010 22:22 Pibacc wrote: You guys seem to not understand Kespas point of view. The most famous BW player, NaDa, was playing the new game SC2, Kespa is still heavily invested in BW, and still have great viewership. Kespa can't run with SC2 because of legal issues, so they want to keep BW alive. If the most popular BW player in history is seen playing SC2, they could lose a lot of fans and it would most likely hurt BW, which no one wants to see happen.
That I could understand, but Kespa allowed Nada to play the match and then canceled the running match because some illegal stream that anyone could have anticipated
On August 21 2010 22:22 Pibacc wrote: You guys seem to not understand Kespas point of view. The most famous BW player, NaDa, was playing the new game SC2, Kespa is still heavily invested in BW, and still have great viewership. Kespa can't run with SC2 because of legal issues, so they want to keep BW alive. If the most popular BW player in history is seen playing SC2, they could lose a lot of fans and it would most likely hurt BW, which no one wants to see happen.
the problem is they let him play at first , then just intervened in the middle of the 3rd game ( which probably would end in 5-10 minutes anyway ) and forced him to quit because of a personal illegal stream. It would be such a big problem if they didnt let him play at the beginning.
On August 21 2010 21:54 KinosJourney2 wrote: This is retarded, seems like Kespa loves being assholes and ruining other peoples fun,
Won't they just give up already? Blizzard have won and they won't gain anything from ruining innocent peoples fun by cancelling a showmatch. Damn it Kespa.
Ruining people's fun? Kespa is paying the bills here. If you want to pay Nada's contract, then he will play as much SC2 for you as you want.
Kespa stopped a showmatch they didn't even host/was in charge off.
They could have just stopped the stream instead of stopping the actual event(and/or sue the streamer(s)). Nada playing a single SC2 match for fun can't be that dangerous.
Well of course you'll say its not that dangerous. It isn't your money. When its your money, you worry more about these things.
What do you mean by money? Some random korean was streaming a SC2 event and Kespa shut it down thinking that they'd get in trouble CAUSE a random korean streamed a SC2 event. Kespa can't possibly get blamed for what someone unrelated does.
LOL they didn't shut it down because Blizzard would get mad, they shut it down so that Koreans aren't exposed to professional SC2 with a very popular player. They are trying to protect their investment in BW.
I still think it's a dick move, but I completely understand why they did it.
That's the impression i had from the thread, but it's still wrong by Kespa. Hacpee talked about Nada losing his progamers license but that wouldn't happen IF Kespa wouldn't have been stupid in the first place and tried to isolate korean citizens from SC2.
I never said that Nada shouldn't have called GG, but that Kespa shouldn't have interfered with the actual event in the first place.
EDIT: I just read the edit in OP, Kespa is obviously up to something. WTF
On August 21 2010 22:22 Pibacc wrote: You guys seem to not understand Kespas point of view. The most famous BW player, NaDa, was playing the new game SC2, Kespa is still heavily invested in BW, and still have great viewership. Kespa can't run with SC2 because of legal issues, so they want to keep BW alive. If the most popular BW player in history is seen playing SC2, they could lose a lot of fans and it would most likely hurt BW, which no one wants to see happen.
On August 21 2010 20:54 maJes wrote: Personally I think it's a fairly simple matter.
KeSPA don't have rights to broadcast SC2 in S.Korea right now.
A KeSPA licensed player is participating in a showmatch, which is being broadcasted in S.Korea.
Who's going to get in trouble if it continues? Obviously KeSPA.
It sucks that the match had to be cancelled but the only person in the wrong here is the guy who streamed it in S.Korea, and caused the chain of events to occur.
might have been the reason why NaDa vs TLO's showmatch was stopped .. and Kespa allowed NaDa to play SC2 in the 1st place so that wasn't the issue ..
On August 21 2010 20:54 maJes wrote: Personally I think it's a fairly simple matter.
KeSPA don't have rights to broadcast SC2 in S.Korea right now.
A KeSPA licensed player is participating in a showmatch, which is being broadcasted in S.Korea.
Who's going to get in trouble if it continues? Obviously KeSPA.
It sucks that the match had to be cancelled but the only person in the wrong here is the guy who streamed it in S.Korea, and caused the chain of events to occur.
might have been the reason why NaDa vs TLO's showmatch was stopped .. and Kespa allowed NaDa to play SC2 in the 1st place so that wasn't the issue ..
Sounds like BS to me. As far as I know the showmatch was constructed spontaniously. I also have no idea why kespa would get into any kind of legal trouble because they let a licensed player of them play SC2. After all, the negotiations were always about broadcasting rights, nothing else.
So I say it's simply a kespa-is-being-a-greedy-asshole situation. They could've avoided this by coming to an agreement with Blizzard, but obviously they didn't. It obviously works for Gom, and quite well so.
Maybe there was a translation error? That kespa agreed to a showmatch, and ESL didnt emphasis, that it would be streamed to the internet? A kneejerk reaction from someone inside kespa? "oh nada is playing and not only promoting the new game" though that person didnt know that they agreed to the showmatch?
Pulling the plug at game 3 seems... strange. Too many things dont add up to "kespa wants to be a dick" - they could be "dickier" in other ways.
Lots of people seems to think that KeSPA are really stupid. But I can understand why they don't want to switch to sc2 over night. If blizzard would lay of and SC2 could roam free in South Korea it could potentially grow to a big e-sport. Remember, SC2 is not set in stone to succeed as an E-sport.
It's about money. Kespa would lose profit over this if it was streamed in S.Korea. This shows that Kespa is hindering the progress of competitive Korean SC2 by being so heavily invested in BW.
It is nothing "evil", per say, it is just a shame... which is basically the story whenever money is in the picture, but that is another matter.
On August 21 2010 22:44 Fojji wrote: So i guess we won't get vods becuase of this? So incredibly lame i don't even know what to say, why would a company want to do that? Control freaks
Probably 50/50 chance. It is up to the ESL to put them up or not. In doing so however, KeSPA could be douches again and ban all KeSPA players from participating in future events.
Motivations and methods behind it aside, I agree with what Kespa did. The agreement was so long as it was not streamed in SKorea, and it was streamed there so the plug was pulled.
I believe they handled it inappropriately, but none the less it is safe to say that until the big players transfer over, SC2 will not eclipse BW in SKorea.
Of course Kespa hates Blizzard and SC2, wouldn't u be pissed off if someone tried to shut down what you created for 10 years. Kespa created and kept e-sports and spread it, they should be treated like they did
In my eyes the correct course of action would be to contact the streaming site to have them take it down i'd imagine... But they decided to go all power hungry about it.
On August 21 2010 20:54 maJes wrote: Personally I think it's a fairly simple matter.
KeSPA don't have rights to broadcast SC2 in S.Korea right now.
A KeSPA licensed player is participating in a showmatch, which is being broadcasted in S.Korea.
Who's going to get in trouble if it continues? Obviously KeSPA.
It sucks that the match had to be cancelled but the only person in the wrong here is the guy who streamed it in S.Korea, and caused the chain of events to occur.
might have been the reason why NaDa vs TLO's showmatch was stopped .. and Kespa allowed NaDa to play SC2 in the 1st place so that wasn't the issue ..
Sounds like BS to me. As far as I know the showmatch was constructed spontaniously. I also have no idea why kespa would get into any kind of legal trouble because they let a licensed player of them play SC2. After all, the negotiations were always about broadcasting rights, nothing else
So I say it's simply a kespa-is-being-a-greedy-asshole situation. They could've avoided this by coming to an agreement with Blizzard, but obviously they didn't. It obviously works for Gom, and quite well so.
1st : you are obviously misinformed ..
2nd (why I think you are misinformed) : they didn't because the demands were too high .. the deal with GoM was a undisclosed, while the deal with kespa was publicly released and well its pretty hard for kespa to accept
I was too tired to wake up for the match this morning (5:00 AM EST), so I missed it. But it sounds like there were at least a few games finished. Anyone know where I can find VoDs for these?
Kespa is all about their fans and this move shows it. They cancelled the showmatch because Nada was behind and they didn't want their fans to see the loss.
Im happy that KesPa has shown itself at the international esports community, so, Quake players, Cs players, everyone knows now WHAT KESPA IS AND WHY ITS A DANGER TO ESPORTS DEVELOPMENT
On August 21 2010 23:42 Baarn wrote: The OP has been updated. So I dunno why all this kepsa discussion is continuing.
obviously no one is buying that , especially after carmac himself said it was kespa who intervened
No people just read the sensationalist topic and then comment is how it works. kespa is a good bad guy also with anything blizzard involved. It's getting really old.
need to see vods if anyone recorded. sounds like some sick first games. also has tlo commented at all on this event? playing with nada must have been awesome.
On August 21 2010 23:55 OneFierceZealot wrote: need to see vods if anyone recorded. sounds like some sick first games. also has tlo commented at all on this event? playing with nada must have been awesome.
I second this, would've loved to watch these two geniuses go at it.
That cover up is absolutely ridiculous. Why would ESL even mention KeSPA ? The crushing majority doesn't even know who or what KeSPA is. And insinuating NaDa would gg that early (something which surprised everyone including me) is just low.
I think all of this is getting blown out of proportion, so I think commenting on the issue would only create unnecessary controversy.
I think it would be best to just lock the thread and update the op then.
Kespa intervened it isn't the end of the world guys. It was kind of a dick move but they held to the terms they put forward when they agreed to the show match. It got restreamed thusly it got shut down.
Mod! What is This?! Reported Attack Page! This web page at www.fomos.kr has been reported as an attack page and has been blocked based on your security preferences.
Attack pages try to install programs that steal private information, use your computer to attack others, or damage your system.
Some attack pages intentionally distribute harmful software, but many are compromised without the knowledge or permission of their owners.
On August 22 2010 00:15 jamesltl wrote: Mod! What is This?! Reported Attack Page! This web page at www.fomos.kr has been reported as an attack page and has been blocked based on your security preferences.
Attack pages try to install programs that steal private information, use your computer to attack others, or damage your system.
Some attack pages intentionally distribute harmful software, but many are compromised without the knowledge or permission of their owners.
It's a site hosted in Korea thus you will get that. It's something about one major Korean hosting company. I forget the details but FOMOS is legit.
On August 22 2010 00:15 jamesltl wrote: Mod! What is This?! Reported Attack Page! This web page at www.fomos.kr has been reported as an attack page and has been blocked based on your security preferences.
Attack pages try to install programs that steal private information, use your computer to attack others, or damage your system.
Some attack pages intentionally distribute harmful software, but many are compromised without the knowledge or permission of their owners.
On August 22 2010 00:15 jamesltl wrote: Mod! What is This?! Reported Attack Page! This web page at www.fomos.kr has been reported as an attack page and has been blocked based on your security preferences.
Attack pages try to install programs that steal private information, use your computer to attack others, or damage your system.
Some attack pages intentionally distribute harmful software, but many are compromised without the knowledge or permission of their owners.
It's a site hosted in Korea thus you will get that. It's something about one major Korean hosting company. I forget the details but FOMOS is legit.
From google,Over the past 90 days, fomos.kr appeared to function as an intermediary for the infection of 1 site(s) including net.co.kr/.
On August 22 2010 00:15 jamesltl wrote: Mod! What is This?! Reported Attack Page! This web page at www.fomos.kr has been reported as an attack page and has been blocked based on your security preferences.
Attack pages try to install programs that steal private information, use your computer to attack others, or damage your system.
Some attack pages intentionally distribute harmful software, but many are compromised without the knowledge or permission of their owners.
It's a site hosted in Korea thus you will get that. It's something about one major Korean hosting company. I forget the details but FOMOS is legit.
From google,Over the past 90 days, fomos.kr appeared to function as an intermediary for the infection of 1 site(s) including net.co.kr/.
It's just google overreacting to Korean advertising
It might have been a publicity stunt by Kespa to show Blizz they still have cards to play. I don't blame them, wouldn't you be defensive if some two bit thug came around and demanded you hand over everything you built up for 10 years?
It's a good move by Kespa. If Blizz wants it so bad, let them build up the marketing, knowledge, social acceptance and stars instead of trying to muscle in on someone else's work.
On August 21 2010 22:08 Dr3w wrote: Lol. It's kind of weird to see comments like these because in SC2, he is one of the best. I wish they could've just switched over to SC2 right away. Would lead to more game development and stuff. Stupid politics... Blizzard makes enough money from WoW, do they honestly need to "attempt" to establish eSports when they can't even get BNET2.0 halfway decent? It seems like Blizzard is trying to fix things that aren't broken IMO.
Blizzard is not a non-profit organization. They are a company. Suggesting that a company can ever have too much profit, or should stop expanding is ridiculous and unrealistic.
That doesn't excuse them trying to shut Kespa out of something they developed.
On August 21 2010 20:08 PlosionCornu wrote: So,having a pro gamer license actually sells your soul to kespa? I mean,If I'm a pro football player,and out of my curiosity I want to partecipate to some other sport event,like,a rally, I can't?
are you talking about football? then yes you can. if you're talking about soccer who cares go die.
User was warned for this post
In the NFL playing another sport could very well be a violation of your contract.
Steve Smith broke his arm playing flag football over the summer and ESPN stated that it may have been a violation of his contract. It doesn't seem uncommon for professional athletes to have personal restrictions placed in their contract. The employer is simply trying to guarantee the health of their player.
That being said, I don't think this is at all an accurate comparison as Kespa is trying maintain their product as a whole rather than their players individually and there is seemingly little chance of anyone being injured at a keyboard.
I really want Carmac to talk about this. I don't understand why he does not want to explain it. Its not getting blown out of proportion, we just want to know what happen. If indeed Kespa did halt the match then we should criticize them but if they did not, then their name deserves to be cleared.
both companies r as bad as eachother. Bliz just wants $$$, they want their share of the community they built didnt help build up, they refuse to put in features that community wants.
Kespa wants to keep a monopoly on esports, they dont want sc2 to succeed becuase blizzard wont let them run it however they want. kespa doesnt want to pay any $ to blizzard to use their games.
So lets all be cynical and say that esports is doomed -.-
or just play the game, the lack on lan makes me angryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy though
On August 22 2010 00:44 Siffer wrote: A bit strange that the VOD is still not up of NaDa vs TLO when the Quake Live semi's are already posted.
Kespa to blame, imo.
I says on this page http://tv.esl.eu/de/program/view/39778 that "Update: There will be no VoD of the match, since Kespa didn't officially allow NaDa to play a showmatch."
On August 22 2010 00:44 Siffer wrote: A bit strange that the VOD is still not up of NaDa vs TLO when the Quake Live semi's are already posted.
Kespa to blame, imo.
I says on this page http://tv.esl.eu/de/program/view/39778 that "Update: There will be no VoD of the match, since Kespa didn't officially allow NaDa to play a showmatch."
That sucks so hard.... Hopefully some replays get leaked for us that missed it....
On August 22 2010 00:44 Siffer wrote: A bit strange that the VOD is still not up of NaDa vs TLO when the Quake Live semi's are already posted.
Kespa to blame, imo.
I says on this page http://tv.esl.eu/de/program/view/39778 that "Update: There will be no VoD of the match, since Kespa didn't officially allow NaDa to play a showmatch."
Therefore I call KeSPA saying they had nothing to do against it bullshit.
On August 22 2010 00:44 Siffer wrote: A bit strange that the VOD is still not up of NaDa vs TLO when the Quake Live semi's are already posted.
Kespa to blame, imo.
I says on this page http://tv.esl.eu/de/program/view/39778 that "Update: There will be no VoD of the match, since Kespa didn't officially allow NaDa to play a showmatch."
Therefore I call KeSPA saying they had nothing to do against it bullshit.
I could be wrong though.
~_~? Thought NaDa GG'd due to network issues, according to FOMOs, I find it funny how KeSPA is trying to cover it up.
On August 22 2010 00:44 Siffer wrote: A bit strange that the VOD is still not up of NaDa vs TLO when the Quake Live semi's are already posted.
Kespa to blame, imo.
I says on this page http://tv.esl.eu/de/program/view/39778 that "Update: There will be no VoD of the match, since Kespa didn't officially allow NaDa to play a showmatch."
Wow, that is awful. It's a shame so many people won't be able to see the absolutely amazing Game 2.
On August 22 2010 00:44 Siffer wrote: A bit strange that the VOD is still not up of NaDa vs TLO when the Quake Live semi's are already posted.
Kespa to blame, imo.
I says on this page http://tv.esl.eu/de/program/view/39778 that "Update: There will be no VoD of the match, since Kespa didn't officially allow NaDa to play a showmatch."
Therefore I call KeSPA saying they had nothing to do against it bullshit.
I could be wrong though.
~_~? Thought NaDa GG'd due to network issues, according to FOMOs, I find it funny how KeSPA is trying to cover it up.
Yeah it's becoming pretty clear the lag thing was a cover up. Even more so with this statement that ESL issued.
oh so he quit cause network issues? oh ye that makes complete logical sense. do they think we are retarded children? this is a insult to the SC community to think we would buy this bullshit. someone needs there as kicked. and i got a steeltoe.
Hey TL! We made the internet!! Everyone Highfives all around!!
Nice find Kennigit!
But seriously, this is just silly, now that everyone knows about it, why not release reps/VODs, it's not like it will do more damage then there already has been done
Michal Blicharz, manager of ESL's Intel Extreme Masters had a comment on his tweeter stating that Kespa ordered the plug to be pulled.
"...Nada was in Germany to promote another game (not SC2) for his team Wemadefox. Kespa agreed to the show match as long as it was not streamed to Korea and was a local show match. Someone in Korea got ahold of the stream and was restreaming it on a Korean streaming site. Apparently Kespa saw this and called Germany to stop the match..."
I guess it's fairly certain that kespa did pull the plug. There are so many indicators: first SK.Reis saying that they did directly after the game, then NaDa not even coming out for the interview but showing up on stage later to promote WeMade's new game and not saying any word about the showmatch (seeing how polite he and all other korean progamers are I don't see any way he'd just walk away from such a thing because "network problems".
On August 22 2010 01:57 Escapist wrote: Michal Blicharz, manager of ESL's Intel Extreme Masters had a comment on his tweeter stating that Kespa ordered the plug to be pulled.
"...Nada was in Germany to promote another game (not SC2) for his team Wemadefox. Kespa agreed to the show match as long as it was not streamed to Korea and was a local show match. Someone in Korea got ahold of the stream and was restreaming it on a Korean streaming site. Apparently Kespa saw this and called Germany to stop the match..."
Well that solves that. Time to change the thread title back again?
On August 22 2010 01:12 Buddhist wrote: I'm very confused by everything. I watched the NaDa vs TLO showmatch. It was 3-2 in favor of TLO.
Am I the only one who saw it? Am I hallucinating? Why are people saying it got canceled? What's going on ?
It was 1-1 the first game was restarted because NaDa got DCed.
Woops I meant 2-1, not 3-2. The last match, NaDa GG'd out pretty early because TLO did really heavy harass with reapers and hellion drops. NaDa knew he was too far behind, and he gg'd out.
I don't understand why people are saying the match got canceled when the entire BO3 got played through.
On August 22 2010 01:57 Escapist wrote: Michal Blicharz, manager of ESL's Intel Extreme Masters had a comment on his tweeter stating that Kespa ordered the plug to be pulled.
"...Nada was in Germany to promote another game (not SC2) for his team Wemadefox. Kespa agreed to the show match as long as it was not streamed to Korea and was a local show match. Someone in Korea got ahold of the stream and was restreaming it on a Korean streaming site. Apparently Kespa saw this and called Germany to stop the match..."
Well that solves that. Time to change the thread title back again?
Damn KESPA.... at least give us VOD's!!!!
i dont think Kespa has any word on that but esl probably wont release them as it may cause more trouble for Nada. He was there just for game promotion and kindly accepted a show match. No need to put him in a troubling position with Kespa. it would be hilarious tho if somehow blizzard release the replay ( as they OWN every single replay ) just to piss kespa off.
you talking in game 3 where he seemingly randomly GG'd? was indeed random but it seemed at the time like Nada gg'd early b/c he "felt" like he was going to lose anyway.... apparently i was wrong.... lol
careful, spoiler includes spoilers (no pun intended)
On August 22 2010 02:19 Sgany wrote: I vote we should all start calling Blizzard and demanding the replay be released...... I'm just sayin.......who doesnt want that replay?
blizz would never do that even if they can as it will make blizz haters rage even more , spamming everywhere and crying about their privacy rights etc etc 2nd game was awesome tho , lol blizz would make lots of money if they sell that replay for 1 dollar. maybe someone should whisper that to kotick's ear?
On August 22 2010 02:19 Sgany wrote: I vote we should all start calling Blizzard and demanding the replay be released...... I'm just sayin.......who doesnt want that replay?
well it's the ESL guys that will have the replays saved on their computers. I can understand not wanting nada to play anymore or have VODs up, but i don't think kespa can control whether they let the replays out or not
On August 22 2010 01:12 Buddhist wrote: I'm very confused by everything. I watched the NaDa vs TLO showmatch. It was 3-2 in favor of TLO.
Am I the only one who saw it? Am I hallucinating? Why are people saying it got canceled? What's going on ?
It was 1-1 the first game was restarted because NaDa got DCed.
Woops I meant 2-1, not 3-2. The last match, NaDa GG'd out pretty early because TLO did really heavy harass with reapers and hellion drops. NaDa knew he was too far behind, and he gg'd out.
I don't understand why people are saying the match got canceled when the entire BO3 got played through.
The last GG in game 3 wasn't genuine. Nada was told to gg to end the match. Apollo and day9 thought he gg'ed because he was far behind, but really it wasn't his own choice to gg and while tlo was ahead the match could have gone on a bit longer.
On August 22 2010 01:12 Buddhist wrote: I'm very confused by everything. I watched the NaDa vs TLO showmatch. It was 3-2 in favor of TLO.
Am I the only one who saw it? Am I hallucinating? Why are people saying it got canceled? What's going on ?
It was 1-1 the first game was restarted because NaDa got DCed.
Woops I meant 2-1, not 3-2. The last match, NaDa GG'd out pretty early because TLO did really heavy harass with reapers and hellion drops. NaDa knew he was too far behind, and he gg'd out.
I don't understand why people are saying the match got canceled when the entire BO3 got played through.
Nada GG'd out early because he was told to by KeSPA/WeMadeFox. He likely would have lost, but he would not have quit so early given that it was a showmatch.
On August 22 2010 02:19 Sgany wrote: I vote we should all start calling Blizzard and demanding the replay be released...... I'm just sayin.......who doesnt want that replay?
blizz would never do that even if they can as it will make blizz haters rage even more , spamming everywhere and crying about their privacy rights etc etc 2nd game was awesome tho , lol blizz would make lots of money if they sell that replay for 1 dollar. maybe someone should whisper that to kotick's ear?
They would make 1 dollar. One sc2 replay site would buy it and upload it, and everyone else would download from there.
On August 22 2010 02:19 Sgany wrote: I vote we should all start calling Blizzard and demanding the replay be released...... I'm just sayin.......who doesnt want that replay?
blizz would never do that even if they can as it will make blizz haters rage even more , spamming everywhere and crying about their privacy rights etc etc 2nd game was awesome tho , lol blizz would make lots of money if they sell that replay for 1 dollar. maybe someone should whisper that to kotick's ear?
They would make 1 dollar. One sc2 replay site would buy it and upload it, and everyone else would download from there.
Wow, you miss so much ESPORTS bullshit just from being away one day. :D I couldn't agree more with what John Lennon once sang: POWEEEEEER TO PLAYERS!
Of course kespa is angry with Blizzard, but this is no way to treat professional gamers. This is what they live to do right now. If you control what they live to do, you're basically controlling their lives.
On August 22 2010 02:32 Fojji wrote: So has anyone said anything from ESL/kespa/wemade about if vods will be released or not, and/or replays.
No VOD's. This all REEKS of KESPA. That latency shit was total bs. Like mentioned before a player of nada's experience would say "ppp" instead of "gg".
Latency problems sound like a cheap excuse to force nada to end the game. And even though i'm new to the whole starcraft scene this reeks like some bigger institution giving the order to pull the plug. Statements by the ESL manager and some other sources seem to confirm this KESPA involvement.
I think there's more reason to trust NaDa's team then some random casters (or whoever started the rumour), if wemade/kespa didn't want nada attending the event they wouldn't have given him permission in the first place. kinda dumb to think they'd risk causing anomosity between them and their customers
On August 21 2010 19:58 Cedstick wrote: KeSPA has a bad attitude against the people who own the original rights to Starcraft and actually created the game. I don't care how much they've put in to the eSports community, they've been huge dicks about control, shutting down GOM streaming Brood War and trying to win the game's rights. They deserve it, and they're just butt-hurt now.
iirc pro gaming teams agreed to stop attending the GOM classic thing, for various reasons (it was poorly done, they wanted to only have to focus on MSL/OSL, etc.)
On August 22 2010 02:38 attackfighter wrote: I think there's more reason to trust NaDa's team then some random casters (or whoever started the rumour), if wemade/kespa didn't want nada attending the event they wouldn't have given him permission in the first place. kinda dumb to think they'd risk causing anomosity between them and their customers
On August 21 2010 19:58 Cedstick wrote: KeSPA has a bad attitude against the people who own the original rights to Starcraft and actually created the game. I don't care how much they've put in to the eSports community, they've been huge dicks about control, shutting down GOM streaming Brood War and trying to win the game's rights. They deserve it, and they're just butt-hurt now.
iirc pro gaming teams agreed to stop attending the GOM classic thing, for various reasons (it was poorly done, they wanted to only have to focus on MSL/OSL, etc.)
he was at the conference to promote a game WeMade made.
Is anyone else just sad that it has to come to this? I mean poor TLO he got the chance to play against one of the great Legends of BW and doesn't get to properly complete the game. This is just such a blow to not only us the spectators but I bet Dario must be a bit upset by it too.
Are we expected to believe that Nada himself chose to abruptly end the match because of "network issues" and because it would be "difficult" to conclude the match? And romurs that KeSPA did something very KeSPA like materialized out of nothing? Fomos just insulted my intelligence. >:[
On August 22 2010 02:38 attackfighter wrote: I think there's more reason to trust NaDa's team then some random casters (or whoever started the rumour), if wemade/kespa didn't want nada attending the event they wouldn't have given him permission in the first place. kinda dumb to think they'd risk causing anomosity between them and their customers
The problem is NaDa's team's story does not make any sense. Again he would have said "ppp" instead of "gg".
iirc pro gaming teams agreed to stop attending the GOM classic thing, for various reasons (it was poorly done, they wanted to only have to focus on MSL/OSL, etc.)
That only happened after Blizz partnered with GOM and KESPA freaked out.
Just to warn. It's not my stream. The guy has some technical difficulties with that octo crap at a rather inopportune time and throws up the stream of the stream on TL.
On August 22 2010 02:45 schisch wrote: why the hell should he say ppp? what does it even mean?
Not entirely sure what PPP stands for (I read discussions about it before and no one seemed to have a definitive answer), but it essentially means "pause the game please" and is used when a player is having technical difficulty generally.
1.) It is a show match. No reason to GG out early even if you know you are behind. Reason for a show match is to display the game. NaDa knows this and wouldn't GG pre-maturely even if he thought there was no way he could win.
2.) As others have stated: If it was network issues, NaDa would have asked for pause, not GG and leave.
4.) VODs will not be available because kespa doesn't want them shown.
5.) Immediately after the game, SK.Reis gave the 'Kespa told us to end match' explanation. I am a former WC3 player and know of Reis. He wouldn't say something like this out of speculation. He would only say it if he had facts.
For these reasons, I believe Kespa was behind the whole cancellation of the match.
Just to warn. It's not my stream. The guy has some technical difficulties with that octo crap at a rather inopportune time and throws up the stream of the stream on TL.
correct me if i'm wrong but as far as i know esl is not a fan of personal streams of their own stream. so maybe someone should record/download it , cut tlo vs nada part and torrent / rapid it. hmm where is my video edit tools again....
On August 22 2010 02:45 schisch wrote: why the hell should he say ppp? what does it even mean?
Not entirely sure what PPP stands for (I read discussions about it before and no one seemed to have a definitive answer), but it essentially means "pause the game please" and is used when a player is having technical difficulty generally.
Just to warn. It's not my stream. The guy has some technical difficulties with that octo crap at a rather inopportune time and throws up the stream of the stream on TL.
correct me if i'm wrong but as far as i know esl is not a fan of personal streams of their own stream. so maybe someone should record/download it , cut tlo vs nada part and torrent / rapid it. hmm where is my video edit tools again....
On August 22 2010 02:38 attackfighter wrote: I think there's more reason to trust NaDa's team then some random casters (or whoever started the rumour), if wemade/kespa didn't want nada attending the event they wouldn't have given him permission in the first place. kinda dumb to think they'd risk causing anomosity between them and their customers
Yeah, whenever I think of KeSPA I think of well-thought out ideas that will please everyone. Words like "Free Agency", "ppp" and "massive match-rigging that they somehow managed to miss" don't even cross my mind.
OK! So i actualy skimmed through the thread and i have to point out that ppl should really refrain from creating super elaborated opinions about stuff that is basicly speculation. There are many sides to this and unless all facts are known is just pointless to rage much about it.
I think its pretty strange that the "plug was pulled" at game 3 after that TLO harass, and i think it makes the scenario of Nada throwing that towel more plausible than somewere at kespas facilities someone commenting during cofee breake "Hey Nada should be playing now at ESL" and the CEO: "WHAAAAT ???? PULL THE PLUG NOW!!!!!"
Now if they indeed pulled the plug i dont get why like 3-4 pages of the thread is ppl discussing "legal" issues like big time lawyers as if Nada was to somehow sue Kespa for not letting him play, also i dont get why this same ppl were commenting a contract between Kespa and Esl when it states in the update on the game vods that officialy Kespa didnt even allow the match. So basicly a good portion of the thread is people discussing stuff taken out of thin air.
So imo this only further supports that they didnt actualy pull the plug because they would just forbid him to play otherwise, and i doubt they would not know that their best player is showmatching until mid game 3.
Now seeing as ppl started to offtopic i´ll talk abit too.
In my opinion the gaming situation in Korean its not really that uber like many of you believe, so much so that it might be aswell the dark side of pro gaming.
There are numerous documentaries on the situation of the "younger" layers of starcraft players and in parallel the MMO gold farmers a.k.a chinese farmers (yes a big chunk of them is actualy korean), were they basicly get explored living all bundled up together with other kids playing games 24/07. This is one side effect of the "progaming" scene that grew in korea and imo is somehow a reflection of how that type of "scene" is far from ideal.
While it is true that Kespa did alot for the the esports in korea, korea itself is something different, they love their starcraft for some reason and it was bound to be big there, and while Kespa did create the infrastructures for it to thrive it also greatly benefited from it so much that if there was no Kespa, Korea would still produce huge players but without korean player and enthusiasm for the game Kespa would never even be 1/10 th as big (aka if they were situated in another country).
Overall what im saying is, Korea is a microcosmos, what they do or dont do for esports have no real impact on overall world wide e-sports unless you plan to migrate to korea, so i dont really see why kespa has so many fanboys.
Regarding Blizzard, its pretty obvious they are trying to controll the e-scene by not adding LAN, and while this is something one could understand, first the casual gamer that plays for fun also gets hit by this, for no reason at all, they could just stipulate that no private LAN tournaments can be held without their concent. And second they didnt actualy created any special additional infrastructure for pro players.
So unless they plan on starting to pay pro players out of their own pocked heres a shoutout for Blizzard.
On August 22 2010 02:45 schisch wrote: why the hell should he say ppp? what does it even mean?
Not entirely sure what PPP stands for (I read discussions about it before and no one seemed to have a definitive answer), but it essentially means "pause the game please" and is used when a player is having technical difficulty generally.
It used to be PP which is pause please then kespa changed the rules so you have to say ppp >_>
The problem is NaDa's team's story does not make any sense. Again he would have said "ppp" instead of "gg".
That only happened after Blizz partnered with GOM and KESPA freaked out.
ppp is only used in Korean matches as far as I know. also the game and set were nearly finished, so it would make more sense to just end the game than to spend 5 minutes fixing a technical problem
and GOM didn't partner with blizzard, blizzard just donated some money to the prize pool so they could promote themselves
On August 22 2010 02:56 Alexstrasas wrote: OK! So i actualy skimmed through the thread and i have to point out that ppl should really refrain from creating super elaborated opinions about stuff that is basicly speculation. There are many sides to this and unless all facts are known is just pointless to rage much about it.
I think its pretty strange that the "plug was pulled" at game 3 after that TLO harass, and i think it makes the scenario of Nada throwing that towel more plausible than somewere at kespas facilities someone commenting during cofee breake "Hey Nada should be playing now at ESL" and the CEO: "WHAAAAT ???? PULL THE PLUG NOW!!!!!"
Now if they indeed pulled the plug i dont get why like 3-4 pages of the thread is ppl discussing "legal" issues like big time lawyers as if Nada was to somehow sue Kespa for not letting him play, also i dont get why this same ppl were commenting a contract between Kespa and Esl when it states in the update on the game vods that officialy Kespa didnt even allow the match. So basicly a good portion of the thread is people discussing stuff taken out of thin air.
So imo this only further supports that they didnt actualy pull the plug because they would just forbid him to play otherwise, and i doubt they would not know that their best player is showmatching until mid game 3.
Now seeing as ppl started to offtopic i´ll talk abit too.
In my opinion the gaming situation in Korean its not really that uber like many of you believe, so much so that it might be aswell the dark side of pro gaming.
There are numerous documentaries on the situation of the "younger" layers of starcraft players and in parallel the MMO gold farmers a.k.a chinese farmers (yes a big chunk of them is actualy korean), were they basicly get explored living all bundled up together with other kids playing games 24/07. This is one side effect of the "progaming" scene that grew in korea and imo is somehow a reflection of how that type of "scene" is far from ideal.
While it is true that Kespa did alot for the the esports in korea, korea itself is something different, they love their starcraft for some reason and it was bound to be big there, and while Kespa did create the infrastructures for it to thrive it also greatly benefited from it so much that if there was no Kespa, Korea would still produce huge players but without korean player and enthusiasm for the game Kespa would never even be 1/10 th as big (aka if they were situated in another country).
Overall what im saying is, Korea is a microcosmos, what they do or dont do for esports have no real impact on overall world wide e-sports unless you plan to migrate to korea, so i dont really see why kespa has so many fanboys.
Regarding Blizzard, its pretty obvious they are trying to controll the e-scene by not adding LAN, and while this is something one could understand, first the casual gamer that plays for fun also gets hit by this, for no reason at all, they could just stipulate that no private LAN tournaments can be held without their concent. And second they didnt actualy created any special additional infrastructure for pro players.
So unless they plan on starting to pay pro players out of their own pocked heres a shoutout for Blizzard.
GIEF F*CKEN LAN AND STFU.
Also wall of text omfgwtfbbq
Lack of LAN is what keeps Blizzard all tournaments in check and prevents KeSPA using starcraft 2
On August 22 2010 03:11 0neder wrote: 1 - Why didn't Kespa just call the streaming site? 2 - I bet they stopped it so Korea wouldn't be saddened by Nada getting owned.
Much easier and faster to call their player, who they control, than trying to shut down a stream.
once i see official ESL vods that haven't been edited much, a lot of my suspicion of KESPA will diminish... But really, this is EXACTLY something kespa would do. All of these politics with KESPA are pretty upsetting -_-
KESPA's an idiot. This is gonna cause so much bad press. Of course Koreans are going to get a hold of everything Starcraft related. In all honesty, Activision-Blizzard has the money to buy out the entire industry and all the pros. Then they can ensure an extremely healthy e-sports future.
Kespa is acting really stupid, ruining it for themselves, but there's also another thing
I can understand that Bliz wants to make money with Esports with a game they created, but they should allow others like Kespa to make money of it as well or Esports will never be as big as it can be. If it would actually be very profitable to set up a SC2 team as a company, soon more than enough sponsors would show up buying these Korean pro players out of Kespa's grip for their team? Or do they have insane contracts with Kespa that keep them from joining any other team forever?
On August 22 2010 03:49 wiesel wrote: What i heard is Kespa and Esl agreed to only a local showmatch without stream. But ESL still streamed and Kespa saw it... so yea
You heard wrong. They agreed to a European/American stream and someone restreamed it to Korea. How they didn't see it coming in the first place is another story.
On August 22 2010 03:30 Cloak wrote: In all honesty, Activision-Blizzard has the money to buy out the entire industry and all the pros. Then they can ensure an extremely healthy e-sports future.
Exchanging a pseudo monopoly for an unquestioned monopoly is not going to drive a vibrant e-sports scene. KeSPA has done some dirty crap, but their track record is much more impressive.
On August 22 2010 03:34 Twitchzor wrote: Now with a VOD up, can someone translate the interview at around 1h 46m?
take said: so rice u know whats up, whats the problem right now?
rice: they just wanted to make the showmatch for the crowd, but they had to cancel it because someone in korea spotted the stream, we got a call from korea and kespa made much trouble and the game had to end right now because the showmatch should be only watched on the gamescom and should not be streamed.
take: kespa is a korean esport organisation, they do contracts with the gamers so they may get penaltys and problems and thats why they had to stop
sry for my bad english
Well even if that is roughly the translation, it's definitely Kespa's fault.
It's basically ESLs fault. There's some raging on german e-sport sites too, but mainly about ESL. There were some people who went there only to see showmatch you know. ESL should have known the stream gets restreamed to korea...
On August 22 2010 03:34 Twitchzor wrote: Now with a VOD up, can someone translate the interview at around 1h 46m?
take said: so rice u know whats up, whats the problem right now?
rice: they just wanted to make the showmatch for the crowd, but they had to cancel it because someone in korea spotted the stream, we got a call from korea and kespa made much trouble and the game had to end right now because the showmatch should be only watched on the gamescom and should not be streamed.
take: kespa is a korean esport organisation, they do contracts with the gamers so they may get penaltys and problems and thats why they had to stop
sry for my bad english
If this is true that's proof enouh (not that we had that already) that they were full of shit when they said he gg'd because of network issues.
On August 22 2010 05:00 Sgany wrote: Is anyone else having an issue viewing the http://livestre.am/kHKN stream? All I get is 404 messages.
It was pretty spotty when I was watching before I posted (imagine considerably more people are hitting it now), hopefully someone pulled the flv and will up it soon. I didn't think to.
On August 22 2010 05:41 Klockan3 wrote: From that video it looked like Nada really enjoyed playing SC2!
I'm sure most of the korean fanbase really enjoy starcraft 2 and ultimately will come to play it. The arguements will eventually stop - lets hope anyway.
On August 22 2010 04:05 waxypants wrote: What is this "Korean stream", "American stream", etc. crap .... they're all being streamed via the INTERNET, right?
You can do regional lockouts. Just ask some non American posters about their experiences on YouTube or Hulu.
Nada GG'd out quickly in game three because there were network issues, and concluded it would be difficult to proceed with the match.
That sounds like a very weak excuse to me. If they had said he GG'd because he felt he lost, I might find that believable (though still unlikely, as he was behind in both games 1 and 2 and still played them out.)
Also, the fact that they chose network issues as the culprit makes it a passive aggressive jab at Blizzard.
Nada GG'd out quickly in game three because there were network issues, and concluded it would be difficult to proceed with the match.
That sounds like a very weak excuse to me. If they had said he GG'd because he felt he lost, I might find that believable (though still unlikely, as he was behind in both games 1 and 2 and still played them out.)
Also, the fact that they chose network issues as the culprit makes it a passive aggressive jab at Blizzard.
Not only a weak excuse it's a complete lie. It's been confirmed that Kespa told WemadeFox to end the match immediately. Also Nada wouldn't just quit like that even if he knew he was going to lose, he would have one big last battle to entertain us.
On August 22 2010 03:58 wiesel wrote: It's basically ESLs fault. There's some raging on german e-sport sites too, but mainly about ESL. There were some people who went there only to see showmatch you know. ESL should have known the stream gets restreamed to korea...
so what did you expect them to do exactly? not even attempt to do it because someone may restream it in korea? Of course they knew someone WILL restream it ; they just took the risk and played 2 full games before kespa found out korean streams and intervened. Esl is the last one to blame here to be honest.
If they willingly took the risk, then the blame is theirs. That's what risk is. That's what happens when you breach an agreement. Some of you guys have really bizarre ideas about how this stuff works.
On August 22 2010 07:26 blacktoss wrote: If they willingly took the risk, then the blame is theirs. That's what risk is. That's what happens when you breach an agreement. Some of you guys have really bizarre ideas about how this stuff works.
The agreement was ridiculous in the first place. The only reason WemadeFox agreed to it is so that we SC2 fans could see the BW legend Nada play SC2. Kespa could have shrugged its shoulders about the korean stream but instead they decided to end the match.
Nada was really, really ridiculously behind in game 3. I think he believed that TLO's backdoor expo was up for much longer than his own expo at Nada's natural. TLO's backdoor expo was seriously delayed (up slower than Nada's natural expo due to the destructible rocks despite being built before Nada started his). Nada was really behind in scv count due to the hellion drop harass by TLO so while the gg seemed quick Nada was so far behind already when he lost his marauder force in the middle that a gg was only a matter of time.
On August 22 2010 07:26 blacktoss wrote: If they willingly took the risk, then the blame is theirs. That's what risk is. That's what happens when you breach an agreement. Some of you guys have really bizarre ideas about how this stuff works.
i'm not sure i get what you mean. they had 2 simple choice ; 1) kespa doesnt want restreams in korea , and i cant simply control everyone in korea to stop it ; thus i shouldnt arrange a showmatch 2)someone WILL restream in korea , but surely i can stream at least 1-2 games before kespa intervene ( if ever ). 1-2 games between nada and TLo , is worlds better then chickening out i dont get it , how it is esl's fault.
Kespa obviously pulled the plug when it was apparent that NaDa was going to lose to a westerner. It was really disappointing to stay up until 5:00am to watch two players square off and have the match dogged by technical issues and political drama.
On August 22 2010 07:35 GhoSt[shield] wrote: Nada was really, really ridiculously behind in game 3. I think he believed that TLO's backdoor expo was up for much longer than his own expo at Nada's natural. TLO's backdoor expo was seriously delayed (up slower than Nada's natural expo due to the destructible rocks despite being built before Nada started his). Nada was really behind in scv count due to the hellion drop harass by TLO so while the gg seemed quick Nada was so far behind already when he lost his marauder force in the middle that a gg was only a matter of time.
People aren't arguing whether Nada would've or could've won. The fact of the matter is any discussion now is pure conjecture because of Kespa's actions.
I mean, how about we just end every game where a player falls behind prematurely?
On August 22 2010 07:50 Dental Floss wrote: Kespa obviously pulled the plug when it was apparent that NaDa was going to lose to a westerner. It was really disappointing to stay up until 5:00am to watch two players square off and have the match dogged by technical issues and political drama.
I guess KeSPA agreed showmatch that assumption its not streamed internet at all, only to people who are visiting @ IEM. ESL just had brilliant idea to broadcast and it failed.
Think about it guys. Blizzard screwed Kespa over by not signing them on for sc2 despite Kespas long commitment to starcraft broodwar (still to this day IMO the best game ever to come out of blizzard cuz i find sc2 terribly disappointing). so naturally nobody should expect Kespa to want anyone under contracts with them to go playing a game that was refused from Kespa. yeah it sucks but i look at blizzard overalll as the villians. they want complete control of everything to do with this game.(a game which im mostly still excited for maps to be made of the original sc units)
Raiznhell you are so right, it was Kespa who got screwed after being caught breaking a contract they had signed with blizzard over intellectual rights. I totally blame Blizzard for enforcing a clear contract violation, and Kespa banning all teams from playing in GOM Tournaments. Stupid Blizzard trying to make sc2 esports global while poor Kespa now has to make money illegally a different way.
On August 22 2010 08:31 Raiznhell wrote: Think about it guys. Blizzard screwed Kespa over by not signing them on for sc2 despite Kespas long commitment to starcraft broodwar (still to this day IMO the best game ever to come out of blizzard cuz i find sc2 terribly disappointing). so naturally nobody should expect Kespa to want anyone under contracts with them to go playing a game that was refused from Kespa.
Blizzard and KeSPA were negotiating for a long time over SC2. The negotiations fell through, for undisclosed reasons. There are rumors running around, but nothing solid about what happened. So I don't see how you can objectively say that Blizzard "screwed Kespa over". Blizzard gave them a chance to get on board.
The other thing you need to realize is that Blizzard did not need to negotiate. They could have just said, "Here are our terms, take them or leave them;" as the owners of the game, that is their right. But they instead choose to enter into a real dialog for quite some time. The negotiations didn't work out, so here we are.
A bit off-topic, but does anyone know how much SC2 Nada has actually played? Based on what I saw in the games, along with the fact that he's still a registered BW progamer, I would guess not very much at all. If that's actually the case, it makes me very excited to see what some of the Korean BW pros will be able to do if they ever decide to switch to SC2 full time.
None of this matters since Nada was so far behind he was going to lose game 3. As far as I'm concerned, the showmatch started and was completed. The disconnected game balances out the abrupt GG at the end of game 3.
What is really funny about this story were the casters' reaction when Nada GGed. They immediately said, "Most people think people GG after a big battle. But this GG came because Nada knew he was so far behind, etc. etc. etc." Instead of admitting their surprise as to why Nada gged, the casters made up stuff and declared we, unwashed masses, are too stupid to understand why someone would GG 'abruptly' (where the truth is they had no idea).
Note to casters: if you aren't sure why something occurred, don't declare you do.
On August 22 2010 08:58 Macavity wrote: None of this matters since Nada was so far behind he was going to lose game 3. As far as I'm concerned, the showmatch started and was completed. The disconnected game balances out the abrupt GG at the end of game 3.
What is really funny about this story were the casters' reaction when Nada GGed. They immediately said, "Most people think people GG after a big battle. But this GG came because Nada knew he was so far behind, etc. etc. etc." Instead of admitting their surprise as to why Nada gged, the casters made up stuff and declared we, unwashed masses, are too stupid to understand why someone would GG 'abruptly' (where the truth is they had no idea).
Note to casters: if you aren't sure why something occurred, don't declare you do.
Weird that YOU also said Nada is so far behind game 3 that he was going to lose. The casters said the same thing at that point because they also think the way YOU did.
On August 22 2010 08:57 Cofo wrote: A bit off-topic, but does anyone know how much SC2 Nada has actually played? Based on what I saw in the games, along with the fact that he's still a registered BW progamer, I would guess not very much at all. If that's actually the case, it makes me very excited to see what some of the Korean BW pros will be able to do if they ever decide to switch to SC2 full time.
I believe TLO said in the interview after the show-match that he was impressed at NaDa's play considering he only started playing SC2 10 days ago.
On August 22 2010 09:14 Dionesus wrote: Is it normal that when you lose...you race out and have a Korean German talk in your behave?
no but it is normal that when your employer (who can take away your licence) is not pleased with the situation you're in...you race out and have a Korean German ( aka Reis , organizer ) talk in your behave.
Just another in a growing list of reasons of Kespa "caring" about it's fans and esports. This is just sad to see happening. Show match like this just completely sidelined due to Kespa's over reaction and utter disgusting attempts at covering up the fact they axed an event because of some random stream into Korea.
Someone needs to get a list together of all of the various screw-up's and point to it every time some one tries to say Kespa cares about anything related to it's fans and esports.
On August 22 2010 08:39 IamAnton wrote: Raiznhell you are so right, it was Kespa who got screwed after being caught breaking a contract they had signed with blizzard over intellectual rights. I totally blame Blizzard for enforcing a clear contract violation, and Kespa banning all teams from playing in GOM Tournaments. Stupid Blizzard trying to make sc2 esports global while poor Kespa now has to make money illegally a different way.
On August 22 2010 09:35 Parnage wrote: Just another in a growing list of reasons of Kespa "caring" about it's fans and esports. This is just sad to see happening. Show match like this just completely sidelined due to Kespa's over reaction and utter disgusting attempts at covering up the fact they axed an event because of some random stream into Korea.
Someone needs to get a list together of all of the various screw-up's and point to it every time some one tries to say Kespa cares about anything related to it's fans and esports.
Kespa cares enough to invest millions of dollars into Esports each and every year supporting teams and coaching/support staff.
On August 22 2010 09:41 ~Matthias wrote: Kespa can't do Starcraft II. Blizzard fucked them over with no lan support, and probably wanted a part of the profits.
If Koreans start wanting the BW pros to switch over to SC2, then Kespa is over.
It wasn't the right move to cancel the match, but I can definately see why it happened.
Both Blizzard and Kespa are to blame for this.
P.S. I can't believe we're already having Bnet 2.0 problems. Thats so fucking ridiculous. I hope Blizzard is embarrassed.
I'm not sure if you've actually been reading about what's happening, but GOM have been given Lan Support for use by progamers, or people who play in the massive GOM tourneys, it's just Kespa wanting to milk money out of something they haven't even made without giving Blizzard a penny of it.
Also, I'm not sure if you know how software/hardware works, but generally you have a lot of problems at the beginning of software, aka in this situation it's BNET 2.0, which will get ironed out as time goes by.
On August 22 2010 09:41 ~Matthias wrote: Kespa can't do Starcraft II. Blizzard fucked them over with no lan support, and probably wanted a part of the profits.
If Koreans start wanting the BW pros to switch over to SC2, then Kespa is over.
It wasn't the right move to cancel the match, but I can definately see why it happened.
Both Blizzard and Kespa are to blame for this.
P.S. I can't believe we're already having Bnet 2.0 problems. Thats so fucking ridiculous. I hope Blizzard is embarrassed.
I'm not sure if you've actually been reading about what's happening, but GOM have been given Lan Support for use by progamers, or people who play in the massive GOM tourneys...
On August 22 2010 09:35 Parnage wrote: Just another in a growing list of reasons of Kespa "caring" about it's fans and esports. This is just sad to see happening. Show match like this just completely sidelined due to Kespa's over reaction and utter disgusting attempts at covering up the fact they axed an event because of some random stream into Korea.
Someone needs to get a list together of all of the various screw-up's and point to it every time some one tries to say Kespa cares about anything related to it's fans and esports.
Kespa cares enough to invest millions of dollars into Esports each and every year supporting teams and coaching/support staff.
Yes, Kespa clearly is a charity organization. They invest money out of their own pockets, without any return on investment whatsoever.
On August 22 2010 08:57 Cofo wrote: A bit off-topic, but does anyone know how much SC2 Nada has actually played? Based on what I saw in the games, along with the fact that he's still a registered BW progamer, I would guess not very much at all. If that's actually the case, it makes me very excited to see what some of the Korean BW pros will be able to do if they ever decide to switch to SC2 full time.
I believe TLO said in the interview after the show-match that he was impressed at NaDa's play considering he only started playing SC2 10 days ago.
and by saying "10 days ago" im pretty sure he hasnt played many matches, as he is, still a sc1 progamer and only played during his spare time
On August 22 2010 09:35 Parnage wrote: Just another in a growing list of reasons of Kespa "caring" about it's fans and esports. This is just sad to see happening. Show match like this just completely sidelined due to Kespa's over reaction and utter disgusting attempts at covering up the fact they axed an event because of some random stream into Korea.
Someone needs to get a list together of all of the various screw-up's and point to it every time some one tries to say Kespa cares about anything related to it's fans and esports.
Kespa cares enough to invest millions of dollars into Esports each and every year supporting teams and coaching/support staff.
Yeah because thats how they make a living...?
Not saying blizzard is doing a better job, but still, if they truly love esports they shouldn't screw it up for the gamers.
just as carmac says, OP source: http://tv.esl.eu/de/program/view/39778 ESL: 'Update: There will be no VoD of the match, since Kespa didn't officially allow NaDa to play a showmatch.'
FOMOS is BS though they are pro kespa instead of being a truthful news website.
On August 22 2010 10:48 cAPS wrote: Is that livestream of the TLO - Nada game going full retard for anyone else?
It kept going crazy for me. I think it was just a bad stream when it was recorded because the video would still play even though nothing was happening. You just have to slightly fast forward the video to keep watching it.
think of kespa's scapegoat reasoning for our benefit .. think of it as "pros dont want to play in an unstable playing field".. im just saying use this to our advantage. make it a prime example of why we need LAN connection.
Well, I hope that the problems here in IEM on connectivity actually push Blizz to open up their rumored "Professional Edition" for tournaments much faster; where they can actually play it over a LAN instead of having to route their netcode over B.Net.02
On August 22 2010 13:10 Dr3w wrote: i'm sure some hacker/proGRAMMER will find a way to enable lan support for the general public. it's only a matter of time.
It's a disgrace that this is even necessary, but I hope it happens soon. Ah well despite the gayness from both Blizzard and Kespa in this showmatch, it was still a treat to see NaDa play for a bit. And TLO was brilliant as usual. Everyone watch game 2 it was amazing.
On August 22 2010 09:35 Parnage wrote: Just another in a growing list of reasons of Kespa "caring" about it's fans and esports. This is just sad to see happening. Show match like this just completely sidelined due to Kespa's over reaction and utter disgusting attempts at covering up the fact they axed an event because of some random stream into Korea.
Someone needs to get a list together of all of the various screw-up's and point to it every time some one tries to say Kespa cares about anything related to it's fans and esports.
Kespa cares enough to invest millions of dollars into Esports each and every year supporting teams and coaching/support staff.
Yeah because thats how they make a living...?
Not saying blizzard is doing a better job, but still, if they truly love esports they shouldn't screw it up for the gamers.
That's how they make a living? The teams make a living. KESPA is representing the sponsors. The sponsors don't do Broodwar as their main business. They do it for goodwill/brand enhancement. They can pull out at any time and not feel a thing.
On August 22 2010 09:35 Parnage wrote: Just another in a growing list of reasons of Kespa "caring" about it's fans and esports. This is just sad to see happening. Show match like this just completely sidelined due to Kespa's over reaction and utter disgusting attempts at covering up the fact they axed an event because of some random stream into Korea.
Someone needs to get a list together of all of the various screw-up's and point to it every time some one tries to say Kespa cares about anything related to it's fans and esports.
Kespa cares enough to invest millions of dollars into Esports each and every year supporting teams and coaching/support staff.
Yeah because thats how they make a living...?
Not saying blizzard is doing a better job, but still, if they truly love esports they shouldn't screw it up for the gamers.
That's how they make a living? The teams make a living. KESPA is representing the sponsors. The sponsors don't do Broodwar as their main business. They do it for goodwill/brand enhancement. They can pull out at any time and not feel a thing.
You are seriously delusional. They do it because their is profitable gain, by recognition or otherwise. I don't know what fantasy world you live in where companies like Samsung act on good will.
For those who are not really aware of KeSPA's business, here's the timeline of KeSPA and its major events in (South) Korea
1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded. 2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA. 3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament. 4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.' 5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea 6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this. 7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online. 8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee. 9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games. 10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting. 11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard. 12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches. 13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business. 14. Blizzard got really mad. 15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft. 16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA. 17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball. 18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea. 19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime. 20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain. 21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason. 22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA. 23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard. 24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard) 25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV 26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA. 27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA. 28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2. 29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs. 30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League). 31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA. 32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2 33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany. 34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem. 35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time.
Most of these are known facts that have happend and are happening in Korea. I read the original version which was in Korean posted in Ruliweb.com and I got somewhat upset about the whole story, so i decided to trasnlate it into English so that many can learn about how KeSPA has been doing to fans, progamers, and Blizzard.
On August 22 2010 15:03 Secret_Agent_360 wrote: For those who are not really aware of KeSPA's business, here's the timeline of KeSPA and its major events in (South) Korea + Show Spoiler +
1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded. 2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA. 3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament. 4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.' 5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea 6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this. 7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online. 8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee. 9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games. 10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting. 11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard. 12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches. 13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business. 14. Blizzard got really mad. 15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft. 16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA. 17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball. 18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea. 19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime. 20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain. 21. Blizzard constantly tried to negociate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason. 22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negociation with KeSPA. 23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard. 24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard) 25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negociate with GomTV 26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA. 27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA. 28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2. 29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs. 30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League). 31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA. 32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2 33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany. 34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem. 35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time.
Most of these are known facts that have happend and are happening in Korea. I read the original version which was in Korean posted in Ruliweb.com and I got somewhat upset about the whole story, so i decided to trasnlate it into English so that many can learn about how KeSPA has been doing to fans, progamers, and Blizzard.
wow, thanks for the post i now realize how ignorant I was about this whole issue
On August 22 2010 15:03 Secret_Agent_360 wrote: For those who are not really aware of KeSPA's business, here's the timeline of KeSPA and its major events in (South) Korea
1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded. 2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA. 3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament. 4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.' 5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea 6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this. 7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online. 8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee. 9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games. 10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting. 11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard. 12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches. 13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business. 14. Blizzard got really mad. 15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft. 16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA. 17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball. 18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea. 19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime. 20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain. 21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason. 22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA. 23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard. 24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard) 25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV 26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA. 27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA. 28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2. 29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs. 30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League). 31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA. 32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2 33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany. 34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem. 35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time.
Most of these are known facts that have happend and are happening in Korea. I read the original version which was in Korean posted in Ruliweb.com and I got somewhat upset about the whole story, so i decided to trasnlate it into English so that many can learn about how KeSPA has been doing to fans, progamers, and Blizzard.
Great summary. People who haven't been following should definitely read it.
8b. Even better, Blizzard themselves contributed $40000 to the prize pool of one of the GOM seasons if I recall.
Kespa makes bullet points about wanting to expand esports to the rest of the world, but their anticompetitive actions indicate that they just want Starcraft to remain a solely Korean phenomenon so they can cash in on all their advertising structure themselves. Kespa is also the reason pro gamers can't use chat during matches.
Is it feasible for Blizzard or some other entity to straight up hire progamers away from Kespa? I don't fully understand how Kespa works/operates, so why do they have such leveraging power over the pro gamers?
Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard.
On August 22 2010 09:41 ~Matthias wrote: Kespa can't do Starcraft II. Blizzard fucked them over with no lan support, and probably wanted a part of the profits.
If Koreans start wanting the BW pros to switch over to SC2, then Kespa is over.
It wasn't the right move to cancel the match, but I can definately see why it happened.
Both Blizzard and Kespa are to blame for this.
P.S. I can't believe we're already having Bnet 2.0 problems. Thats so fucking ridiculous. I hope Blizzard is embarrassed.
I'm not sure if you've actually been reading about what's happening, but GOM have been given Lan Support for use by progamers, or people who play in the massive GOM tourneys, it's just Kespa wanting to milk money out of something they haven't even made without giving Blizzard a penny of it.
Also, I'm not sure if you know how software/hardware works, but generally you have a lot of problems at the beginning of software, aka in this situation it's BNET 2.0, which will get ironed out as time goes by.
Yeah? And whens the last time you heard valve wanting money for the hundreds of tournaments that revolve around counter-strike, or ID for quake. I don't think Blizzard should get any money for tournaments. Every player to compete needs to own the game anyway so that they can log on through battle.net.
As far as software goes, WoW still goes down all the time, I can remember a few times where its been down for hours (And not because of Tuesday maintenance). You have to think about all the smaller tournaments being held everywhere, maybe not all with "Progamers" but with high skilled players competing for decent amounts of money.
The fact that it doesn't have LAN goes in the total opposite direction of this E-Sports obsessed direction that Blizzard is heading. But we'll see what happens.
@Secret_Agent_360 Korea (South). August 22 2010 15:03. Posts 2
Thanks a lot for that post, it's very helpful to read such a summary. It's important for those who returned to SC2 after years of absence to know a bit about the kespa/blizzard stuff since it seems to influence the esport potential of our favorite game a lot. I could find some bits and pieces with search but it seems i missed a lot.
Funny how Nada has hardly played SC2 and took a game off TLO. Koreans are going to dominate this game just like BW.
Kespa's protecting the Korean BW scene, if SC2 is just a flash in the pan but kills off BW just to make Blizzard more money then esports is DEAD. I'm happy if Korea becomes a haven for BW and SC2 catches on everywhere else. At least we have something to go back to. Nada was there for another game, they used him to promote SC2 and streamed it worldwide (i.e. ESL is in the wrong). Kespa's well within their rights to pull their player out if the agreement for the match was breached and it wasn't in the BW scene's best interests.
I really don't get the Kespa hate on this site, the sponsors simply protect the time and investment they have put into developing these amazing progamers which SC2 parties (mainly Blizz) are trying to exploit to further their own interests. The more outrageous thing at this event was the disconnect in the first game because Blizzard hasn't implemented lan support. They are all talk when it comes to esports as no LAN is clearly detrimental to any future pro-scene.
On August 22 2010 09:41 ~Matthias wrote: Kespa can't do Starcraft II. Blizzard fucked them over with no lan support, and probably wanted a part of the profits.
If Koreans start wanting the BW pros to switch over to SC2, then Kespa is over.
It wasn't the right move to cancel the match, but I can definately see why it happened.
Both Blizzard and Kespa are to blame for this.
P.S. I can't believe we're already having Bnet 2.0 problems. Thats so fucking ridiculous. I hope Blizzard is embarrassed.
I'm not sure if you've actually been reading about what's happening, but GOM have been given Lan Support for use by progamers, or people who play in the massive GOM tourneys, it's just Kespa wanting to milk money out of something they haven't even made without giving Blizzard a penny of it.
Also, I'm not sure if you know how software/hardware works, but generally you have a lot of problems at the beginning of software, aka in this situation it's BNET 2.0, which will get ironed out as time goes by.
No they didn't. It was just rumors
On August 22 2010 15:03 Secret_Agent_360 wrote: For those who are not really aware of KeSPA's business, here's the timeline of KeSPA and its major events in (South) Korea
1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded. 2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA. 3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament. 4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.' 5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea 6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this. 7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online. 8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee. 9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games. 10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting. 11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard. 12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches. 13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business. 14. Blizzard got really mad. 15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft. 16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA. 17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball. 18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea. 19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime. 20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain. 21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason. 22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA. 23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard. 24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard) 25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV 26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA. 27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA. 28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2. 29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs. 30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League). 31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA. 32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2 33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany. 34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem. 35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time.
Most of these are known facts that have happend and are happening in Korea. I read the original version which was in Korean posted in Ruliweb.com and I got somewhat upset about the whole story, so i decided to trasnlate it into English so that many can learn about how KeSPA has been doing to fans, progamers, and Blizzard.
Thanks for this post Hopefully this stops "We need KeSPA for SC2 in korea" bullshit
On August 21 2010 21:21 crappen wrote: You guys say Kespa came out of this one real ugly, but imo, Blizzard's NO LAN bullshit has really shown off in IEM, and I think every player agree how bullshit it is to have no-lan in tournaments like this one. I can not even imagine how irritating and spirit killing that must have been to pause till lag settles, or to suddenly be dropped. .
Yep, I jsut watched a video of this and saw the look on Nadas face in one of the matches when the game was dropped, what.the.fuck? Seriously.
On August 22 2010 16:32 Scarecrow wrote: The more outrageous thing at this event was the disconnect in the first game because Blizzard hasn't implemented lan support. They are all talk when it comes to esports as no LAN is clearly detrimental to any future pro-scene.
Let's not get crazy here. Disconnects happened in BW too, as well as games ending from other technical difficulties. Bisu's "plug pull" against July ring any bells? Unless this becomes a common occurrence in live events, Kespa stays in the lead as far as outrageousness goes IMO. No LAN is a bummer, don't get me wrong. Tying up all the Kespa progamers with red tape is worse.
On August 21 2010 21:21 crappen wrote: You guys say Kespa came out of this one real ugly, but imo, Blizzard's NO LAN bullshit has really shown off in IEM, and I think every player agree how bullshit it is to have no-lan in tournaments like this one. I can not even imagine how irritating and spirit killing that must have been to pause till lag settles, or to suddenly be dropped. .
Yep, I jsut watched a video of this and saw the look on Nadas face in one of the matches when the game was dropped, what.the.fuck? Seriously.
The IEM proudly presented this tournament as the first 'Offline SC2 tournament'. So are you guys sure it was through battlenet, or maybe little mistakes from the 'Lan version' which got used for real for the first time ?
Btw source from 'offline Starcraft II tournament' which I think means 'Lan tournament'
Only two weeks left until the first major offline StarCraft II tournament ever will take place at this year's gamescom in Cologne, Germany. 16 world-class players will compete for $15,000 in Intel Extreme Masters' second Global Challenge of Season V. This early highlight of StarCraft II's eSports history will be brought to you by Sean 'Day[9]' Plott, who will be our very welcome guest at ESL TV! http://www.esl-world.net/masters/news/131170/Day-9-to-commentate-SC2-Global-Challenge/
On August 21 2010 21:21 crappen wrote: You guys say Kespa came out of this one real ugly, but imo, Blizzard's NO LAN bullshit has really shown off in IEM, and I think every player agree how bullshit it is to have no-lan in tournaments like this one. I can not even imagine how irritating and spirit killing that must have been to pause till lag settles, or to suddenly be dropped. .
Yep, I jsut watched a video of this and saw the look on Nadas face in one of the matches when the game was dropped, what.the.fuck? Seriously.
The IEM proudly presented this tournament as the first 'Offline SC2 tournament'. So are you guys sure it was through battlenet, or maybe little mistakes from the 'Lan version' which got used for real for the first time ?
Btw source from 'offline Starcraft II tournament' which I think means 'Lan tournament'
Only two weeks left until the first major offline StarCraft II tournament ever will take place at this year's gamescom in Cologne, Germany. 16 world-class players will compete for $15,000 in Intel Extreme Masters' second Global Challenge of Season V. This early highlight of StarCraft II's eSports history will be brought to you by Sean 'Day[9]' Plott, who will be our very welcome guest at ESL TV! http://www.esl-world.net/masters/news/131170/Day-9-to-commentate-SC2-Global-Challenge/
offline means that players don't fight over internet, but in front of the crowd.
On August 22 2010 15:03 Secret_Agent_360 wrote: For those who are not really aware of KeSPA's business, here's the timeline of KeSPA and its major events in (South) Korea + Show Spoiler +
1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded. 2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA. 3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament. 4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.' 5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea 6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this. 7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online. 8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee. 9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games. 10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting. 11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard. 12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches. 13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business. 14. Blizzard got really mad. 15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft. 16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA. 17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball. 18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea. 19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime. 20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain. 21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason. 22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA. 23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard. 24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard) 25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV 26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA. 27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA. 28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2. 29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs. 30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League). 31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA. 32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2 33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany. 34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem. 35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time.
Most of these are known facts that have happend and are happening in Korea. I read the original version which was in Korean posted in Ruliweb.com and I got somewhat upset about the whole story, so i decided to trasnlate it into English so that many can learn about how KeSPA has been doing to fans, progamers, and Blizzard.
I'm not the biggest fan of KeSPA but I honestly don't think that timeline series is very objective. It's meant to make you upset. Not many netizens support KeSPA (who would, really), but a lot of them are really simplified points that IMO miss a lot of the key details.
On August 21 2010 21:21 crappen wrote: You guys say Kespa came out of this one real ugly, but imo, Blizzard's NO LAN bullshit has really shown off in IEM, and I think every player agree how bullshit it is to have no-lan in tournaments like this one. I can not even imagine how irritating and spirit killing that must have been to pause till lag settles, or to suddenly be dropped. .
Yep, I jsut watched a video of this and saw the look on Nadas face in one of the matches when the game was dropped, what.the.fuck? Seriously.
The IEM proudly presented this tournament as the first 'Offline SC2 tournament'. So are you guys sure it was through battlenet, or maybe little mistakes from the 'Lan version' which got used for real for the first time ?
Btw source from 'offline Starcraft II tournament' which I think means 'Lan tournament'
Only two weeks left until the first major offline StarCraft II tournament ever will take place at this year's gamescom in Cologne, Germany. 16 world-class players will compete for $15,000 in Intel Extreme Masters' second Global Challenge of Season V. This early highlight of StarCraft II's eSports history will be brought to you by Sean 'Day[9]' Plott, who will be our very welcome guest at ESL TV! http://www.esl-world.net/masters/news/131170/Day-9-to-commentate-SC2-Global-Challenge/
What AyJay said and also, if you watched the finals you'd know that there was Bnet problems which caused a drop in one of the games as well as lag in one of IdrA's matches.
On August 22 2010 16:32 Scarecrow wrote: The more outrageous thing at this event was the disconnect in the first game because Blizzard hasn't implemented lan support. They are all talk when it comes to esports as no LAN is clearly detrimental to any future pro-scene.
Let's not get crazy here. Disconnects happened in BW too, as well as games ending from other technical difficulties. Bisu's "plug pull" against July ring any bells? Unless this becomes a common occurrence in live events, Kespa stays in the lead as far as outrageousness goes IMO. No LAN is a bummer, don't get me wrong. Tying up all the Kespa progamers with red tape is worse.
All the problems like power outage still have potential to happen in SC2. The no lan support just adds one more thing that can go wrong plus unnecessary latency. The Kespa progamers are a result of the team sponsors taking a risk and investing in esports. The real capital is the players, not the 10 year old game. Why should they allow promoters of another game to profit off what they have built to the detriment of BW?
The gomtv fiasco was a similar issue, the homegrown stars of starcraft generating revenue and advertising for blizzard and gom without any compensation to the companies that created the scene. It even hurt the quality of the other leagues as it added games to already intense schedules. I don't see why people can be outraged at Kespa shutting down a competition that they had no stake in, hurt their own interests (worsened player conditions) and was run using the capital they created.
Agreed with Milkis. That list is ridiculously biased, can argue pretty much every point.
Blizzard/GOM are poised to take over E-Sports in Korea. There's nothing stopping the players from leaving KESPA and start playing SC2. When KESPA does shit like this, it's hard to imagine it getting any worse. Time for KESPA to dissolve and tournaments to be run on LAN.
On August 22 2010 16:40 SoJu.WeRRa wrote: makes everybody confuse damn..
Thanks for the input, it would be very fortunate and interesting to hear some more updates about what the korean community is thinking about this matter.
I'm not the biggest fan of KeSPA but I honestly don't think that timeline series is very objective. It's meant to make you upset. Not many netizens support KeSPA (who would, really), but a lot of them are really simplified points that IMO miss a lot of the key details.
Would it be possible for TL to make a more objective list then? Just the unbiased facts. I don't want to pick sides, just very curious about the history of all this. For example is it fair to say that Kespa made BW big in Korea? Or would it be big without them too.
On August 22 2010 15:03 Secret_Agent_360 wrote: For those who are not really aware of KeSPA's business, here's the timeline of KeSPA and its major events in (South) Korea + Show Spoiler +
1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded. 2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA. 3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament. 4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.' 5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea 6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this. 7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online. 8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee. 9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games. 10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting. 11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard. 12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches. 13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business. 14. Blizzard got really mad. 15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft. 16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA. 17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball. 18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea. 19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime. 20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain. 21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason. 22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA. 23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard. 24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard) 25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV 26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA. 27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA. 28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2. 29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs. 30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League). 31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA. 32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2 33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany. 34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem. 35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time.
Most of these are known facts that have happend and are happening in Korea. I read the original version which was in Korean posted in Ruliweb.com and I got somewhat upset about the whole story, so i decided to trasnlate it into English so that many can learn about how KeSPA has been doing to fans, progamers, and Blizzard.
I'm not the biggest fan of KeSPA but I honestly don't think that timeline series is very objective. It's meant to make you upset. Not many netizens support KeSPA (who would, really), but a lot of them are really simplified points that IMO miss a lot of the key details.
Yeah, it may sound very subjective for not mentioning any good deeds (if there are any) of KeSPA or other key details. However, many Korean gamers agreed on that original post. Well, I admit that I added a very little piece of my opinion in the translation, but still it was based on truth.
When you think about it, KESPA is probably the reason there's no LAN. Blizz is forced to run tournaments and all multiplayer games for SC2 through b.net, otherwise, KESPA could just steal Blizzard's Intellectual Property like they did with SC:BW and create a small fortune from it without including Blizzard.
I'm not the biggest fan of KeSPA but I honestly don't think that timeline series is very objective. It's meant to make you upset. Not many netizens support KeSPA (who would, really), but a lot of them are really simplified points that IMO miss a lot of the key details.
Would it be possible for TL to make a more objective list then? Just the unbiased facts. I don't want to pick sides, just very curious about the history of all this. For example is it fair to say that Kespa made BW big in Korea? Or would it be big without them too.
Starcraft tournaments were already going pretty big and very popular even before KeSPA was founded in 2000. I know it because I and friends of mine were so crazy about matches at that time. Also the base of e-Sports for Starcraft in Korea was built by the efforts of game channels, legendary old progamers like Shin Joo-Young (the 1st official progamer), Ssamjang, and, of course, SlayersBoxer - who didn't belong to anyone at that time, and Starcraft fans.
It wouldn't be fair to say KeSPA didn't do anything because they made e-Sports look more professional business, so we could enjoy many great matches between major teams. Thus, people (usually women and old people) who are not even interested in video games know about Starcraft and progamers in Korea. Would e-Sports become this big without KeSPA? That, I can't say for sure.
I'm not the biggest fan of KeSPA but I honestly don't think that timeline series is very objective. It's meant to make you upset. Not many netizens support KeSPA (who would, really), but a lot of them are really simplified points that IMO miss a lot of the key details.
Would it be possible for TL to make a more objective list then? Just the unbiased facts. I don't want to pick sides, just very curious about the history of all this. For example is it fair to say that Kespa made BW big in Korea? Or would it be big without them too.
Starcraft tournaments were already going pretty big and very popular even before KeSPA was founded in 2000. I know it because I and friends of mine were so crazy about matches at that time. Also the base of e-Sports for Starcraft in Korea was built by the efforts of game channels, legendary old progamers like SlayersBoxer(Terran), Reach(Protoss), and YellOw(Zerg) - who didn't belong to anyone at that time, I assume, and Starcraft fans.
It wouldn't be fair to say KeSPA didn't do anything because they made e-Sports look more professional business, so we could enjoy many great matches between major teams. Thus, people (usually women and old people) who are not even interested in video games know about Starcraft and progamers in Korea. Would e-Sports become this big without KeSPA? That, I can't say for sure.
Like you said, there was a Starcraft community prior to Kespa, but just not as big. Blizzard's biggest issue with Kespa is that Kespa is using, and yes exploiting, their product without allowing Blizzard any input into the league / e-sports scene. This became very obvious with Kespa's blatant refusal of accepting Starcraft 2 and sticking with the Starcraft: Broodwar.
It's fairly obvious that the direction Blizzard is going towards with Starcraft 2, and most likely all their recent games, is of one with a more hands on approach and having control of their product. Blizzard now gets access to every replay, everything is run through battlenet2.0, and their clauses give them the same type of authority (in essence) that apple has over user-generated content.
The reason Blizzard is keeping LAN as an exclusive feature so far is simply because of control. If LAN were made public, a third party such as Kespa or a new organization can just as easily swoop in and bypass battlenet2.0, thus taking the game out of Blizzard's hands once again. After losing control of Starcraft: Broodwar, it seems unlikely that Blizzard will do anything that loosens their control over Starcraft 2. So for those of you asking for LAN, it won't happen unless Blizzard's philosophy changes. It doesn't mean Blizzard is trying to screw over the e-sports scene, just not be exploited for a second time.
On August 22 2010 18:47 CalmDown.Breathe wrote: It doesn't mean Blizzard is trying to screw over the e-sports scene, just not be exploited for a second time.
Screwing over the e-sports scene is just a byproduct in their bid for control? So it basically doesn't matter who "wins", everyone else loses.
TLO -TheLittleOne- (T) VS NaDa (T) IEM Showmatch Part 1 -> TLO -TheLittleOne- (T) VS NaDa (T) IEM Showmatch Part 2 -> TLO -TheLittleOne- (T) VS NaDa (T) IEM Showmatch Part 3 -> TLO -TheLittleOne- (T) VS NaDa (T) IEM Showmatch Part 4 ->
LOW QUALITY VIDEO! The video is bad, lots of breaks and crap, so dont watch it full screen. I only copied the video and cutted most of the lag, internet crashes and blank screens the livestreamer had. Not responsible for the quality only trying to provide an unavailable IEM match.
KESPA agreed that NaDa could play the showmatch aslong as it wasnt transmited by any means in Korea. But someone made a live stream on a Korean forum and KESPA knew about it so they called in and ordered NaDa to GG out of the 3rd match and finish the showmatch.
On August 22 2010 18:47 CalmDown.Breathe wrote: It doesn't mean Blizzard is trying to screw over the e-sports scene, just not be exploited for a second time.
Screwing over the e-sports scene is just a byproduct in their bid for control? So it basically doesn't matter who "wins", everyone else loses.
Seems like it for now, since they don't know how to handle the Starcraft scene in Korea, ever since Korean courts ruled in favor of Kespa (sort of). It doesn't seem likely that they'll keep LAN away forever (just like how it seems implausible that there would be no chat rooms forever), but until they know how to control LAN access... yeah. One way would be with their "tournament registration" function where tournament organizers submit their tournaments to Blizzard to become approved. Could see Blizzard utilizing that to enable LAN? But for now, public LAN would seem really unlikely. That and since Starcraft 2 is still pretty new, the scene is growing right now, so the lack of LAN doesn't seem to be an immediate concern for them.
On August 22 2010 18:47 CalmDown.Breathe wrote: It doesn't mean Blizzard is trying to screw over the e-sports scene, just not be exploited for a second time.
Screwing over the e-sports scene is just a byproduct in their bid for control? So it basically doesn't matter who "wins", everyone else loses.
Seems like it for now, since they don't know how to handle the Starcraft scene in Korea, ever since Korean courts ruled in favor of Kespa (sort of). It doesn't seem likely that they'll keep LAN away forever (just like how it seems implausible that there would be no chat rooms forever), but until they know how to control LAN access... yeah. One way would be with their "tournament registration" function where tournament organizers submit their tournaments to Blizzard to become approved. Could see Blizzard utilizing that to enable LAN? But for now, public LAN would seem really unlikely. That and since Starcraft 2 is still pretty new, the scene is growing right now, so the lack of LAN doesn't seem to be an immediate concern for them.
reply to bolded: its highly impossible IF hackers can acquire and crack this, our beloved B.net2 would be rendered useless ..
If they(blizzard) really want SC2 to grow, they should have implemented LAN. No other way.
On August 22 2010 15:03 Secret_Agent_360 wrote: For those who are not really aware of KeSPA's business, here's the timeline of KeSPA and its major events in (South) Korea + Show Spoiler +
1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded. 2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA. 3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament. 4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.' 5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea 6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this. 7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online. 8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee. 9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games. 10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting. 11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard. 12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches. 13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business. 14. Blizzard got really mad. 15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft. 16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA. 17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball. 18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea. 19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime. 20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain. 21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason. 22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA. 23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard. 24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard) 25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV 26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA. 27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA. 28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2. 29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs. 30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League). 31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA. 32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2 33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany. 34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem. 35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time.
Most of these are known facts that have happend and are happening in Korea. I read the original version which was in Korean posted in Ruliweb.com and I got somewhat upset about the whole story, so i decided to trasnlate it into English so that many can learn about how KeSPA has been doing to fans, progamers, and Blizzard.
I'm not the biggest fan of KeSPA but I honestly don't think that timeline series is very objective. It's meant to make you upset. Not many netizens support KeSPA (who would, really), but a lot of them are really simplified points that IMO miss a lot of the key details.
Like...What details do they miss? I'm sure many of us would like to hear other sides of this story.
On August 22 2010 17:33 Devolved wrote: When you think about it, KESPA is probably the reason there's no LAN. Blizz is forced to run tournaments and all multiplayer games for SC2 through b.net, otherwise, KESPA could just steal Blizzard's Intellectual Property like they did with SC:BW and create a small fortune from it without including Blizzard.
Last I checked Kespa was a non-profit organization? Which I assume means they function like a co-op. And they aren't selling t-shirts with giant mutalisk sprites on them anyway. This whole intellectual property thing is a legal manoeuvre. Blizzard sold the rights to Gretech because Gretech would agree to their terms, but the main reason was obviously that any legal challenge from Kespa after that point would be a contest between two Korean companies, not a Korean company and a foreign one.
So yeah, it's about control, but the real issue is branding. Blizzard don't like the fact that the premiere Starcraft event is the "OGN Starleague" or whatever. They want it to be the "Activision Blizzard Starcraft Invitational". They want their company logo on the desk and in the background.
On August 22 2010 16:32 Scarecrow wrote: The more outrageous thing at this event was the disconnect in the first game because Blizzard hasn't implemented lan support. They are all talk when it comes to esports as no LAN is clearly detrimental to any future pro-scene.
Let's not get crazy here. Disconnects happened in BW too, as well as games ending from other technical difficulties. Bisu's "plug pull" against July ring any bells? Unless this becomes a common occurrence in live events, Kespa stays in the lead as far as outrageousness goes IMO. No LAN is a bummer, don't get me wrong. Tying up all the Kespa progamers with red tape is worse.
All the problems like power outage still have potential to happen in SC2. The no lan support just adds one more thing that can go wrong plus unnecessary latency. The Kespa progamers are a result of the team sponsors taking a risk and investing in esports. The real capital is the players, not the 10 year old game. Why should they allow promoters of another game to profit off what they have built to the detriment of BW?
The gomtv fiasco was a similar issue, the homegrown stars of starcraft generating revenue and advertising for blizzard and gom without any compensation to the companies that created the scene. It even hurt the quality of the other leagues as it added games to already intense schedules. I don't see why people can be outraged at Kespa shutting down a competition that they had no stake in, hurt their own interests (worsened player conditions) and was run using the capital they created.
Agreed with Milkis. That list is ridiculously biased, can argue pretty much every point.
If you can, then do. So far KeSPA seems like the bad guy. Don't know that they are, but so far no one with an apologist sentiment for them has offered any reasons why.
edit: left out part of my thought. Why would they not use these opportunities to further e-sports and develop relationships with those on the IP creators' good side. Which is the bigger risk?
On August 22 2010 09:35 Parnage wrote: Just another in a growing list of reasons of Kespa "caring" about it's fans and esports. This is just sad to see happening. Show match like this just completely sidelined due to Kespa's over reaction and utter disgusting attempts at covering up the fact they axed an event because of some random stream into Korea.
Someone needs to get a list together of all of the various screw-up's and point to it every time some one tries to say Kespa cares about anything related to it's fans and esports.
Kespa cares enough to invest millions of dollars into Esports each and every year supporting teams and coaching/support staff.
Yeah because thats how they make a living...?
Not saying blizzard is doing a better job, but still, if they truly love esports they shouldn't screw it up for the gamers.
That's how they make a living? The teams make a living. KESPA is representing the sponsors. The sponsors don't do Broodwar as their main business. They do it for goodwill/brand enhancement. They can pull out at any time and not feel a thing.
You are seriously delusional. They do it because their is profitable gain, by recognition or otherwise. I don't know what fantasy world you live in where companies like Samsung act on good will.
On August 22 2010 18:47 CalmDown.Breathe wrote: It doesn't mean Blizzard is trying to screw over the e-sports scene, just not be exploited for a second time.
Screwing over the e-sports scene is just a byproduct in their bid for control? So it basically doesn't matter who "wins", everyone else loses.
Seems like it for now, since they don't know how to handle the Starcraft scene in Korea, ever since Korean courts ruled in favor of Kespa (sort of). It doesn't seem likely that they'll keep LAN away forever (just like how it seems implausible that there would be no chat rooms forever), but until they know how to control LAN access... yeah. One way would be with their "tournament registration" function where tournament organizers submit their tournaments to Blizzard to become approved. Could see Blizzard utilizing that to enable LAN? But for now, public LAN would seem really unlikely. That and since Starcraft 2 is still pretty new, the scene is growing right now, so the lack of LAN doesn't seem to be an immediate concern for them.
reply to bolded: its highly impossible IF hackers can acquire and crack this, our beloved B.net2 would be rendered useless ..
If they(blizzard) really want SC2 to grow, they should have implemented LAN. No other way.
Regarding KeSPA .. They made a dumb move .. lol
It was just a hypothetical example. If Blizzard already figured it out, they would have implemented it already. Blizzard's whole success is tied to E-Sports so they have the most to gain with E-Sport's growth and the most to lose with E-Sport's downfall so they probably know what they're doing and are contemplating every decision they make. For now though, they're concentrating on marketing and drawing in more people towards Starcraft 2. Furthering their progress / development of LAN, although great for tournaments and E-Sports, probably doesn't do much for the casual gamer (their current target audience) so their priorities are probably elsewhere right now as well.
And yeah... Kespa did make a dumb move. If they just agreed to negotiate with Blizzard, everything would have been just peachy.
On August 22 2010 19:22 CalmDown.Breathe wrote: Blizzard's whole success is tied to E-Sports
Blizzard is a video game company. They use "e-sports" to promote their products and in the pond of ways to promote products this is not the biggest fish.
On August 22 2010 19:22 CalmDown.Breathe wrote: Blizzard's whole success is tied to E-Sports
Blizzard is a video game company. They use "e-sports" to promote their products and in the pond of ways to promote products this is not the biggest fish.
Which is why they'd like to have as much of an influence in e-sports as they can. Wouldn't they have loved to have Korean Pro-gamers on starcraft 2 right now? but nope, can't because of Kespa. which just goes back to how they're trying to keep control over their products now.
On August 22 2010 15:03 Secret_Agent_360 wrote: For those who are not really aware of KeSPA's business, here's the timeline of KeSPA and its major events in (South) Korea + Show Spoiler +
1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded. 2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA. 3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament. 4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.' 5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea 6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this. 7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online. 8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee. 9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games. 10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting. 11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard. 12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches. 13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business. 14. Blizzard got really mad. 15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft. 16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA. 17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball. 18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea. 19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime. 20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain. 21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason. 22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA. 23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard. 24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard) 25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV 26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA. 27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA. 28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2. 29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs. 30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League). 31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA. 32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2 33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany. 34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem. 35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time.
Most of these are known facts that have happend and are happening in Korea. I read the original version which was in Korean posted in Ruliweb.com and I got somewhat upset about the whole story, so i decided to trasnlate it into English so that many can learn about how KeSPA has been doing to fans, progamers, and Blizzard.
Haha that is totally inaccurate. OGN and GOM could have broadcasted starcraft bw games without going through KESPA. What Kespa wanted was money for using their teams. If OGN/MSL and GOM wanted to, they could have hosted the GSL, OSL, and MSL without the kespa teams and paid nothing.
On August 22 2010 18:47 CalmDown.Breathe wrote: It doesn't mean Blizzard is trying to screw over the e-sports scene, just not be exploited for a second time.
Screwing over the e-sports scene is just a byproduct in their bid for control? So it basically doesn't matter who "wins", everyone else loses.
Seems like it for now, since they don't know how to handle the Starcraft scene in Korea, ever since Korean courts ruled in favor of Kespa (sort of). It doesn't seem likely that they'll keep LAN away forever (just like how it seems implausible that there would be no chat rooms forever), but until they know how to control LAN access... yeah. One way would be with their "tournament registration" function where tournament organizers submit their tournaments to Blizzard to become approved. Could see Blizzard utilizing that to enable LAN? But for now, public LAN would seem really unlikely. That and since Starcraft 2 is still pretty new, the scene is growing right now, so the lack of LAN doesn't seem to be an immediate concern for them.
reply to bolded: its highly impossible IF hackers can acquire and crack this, our beloved B.net2 would be rendered useless ..
If they(blizzard) really want SC2 to grow, they should have implemented LAN. No other way.
Regarding KeSPA .. They made a dumb move .. lol
It was just a hypothetical example. If Blizzard already figured it out, they would have implemented it already. Blizzard's whole success is tied to E-Sports so they have the most to gain with E-Sport's growth and the most to lose with E-Sport's downfall so they probably know what they're doing and are contemplating every decision they make. For now though, they're concentrating on marketing and drawing in more people towards Starcraft 2. Furthering their progress / development of LAN, although great for tournaments and E-Sports, probably doesn't do much for the casual gamer (their current target audience) so their priorities are probably elsewhere right now as well.
And yeah... Kespa did make a dumb move. If they just agreed to negotiate with Blizzard, everything would have been just peachy.
what??? NO .. NO .. KeSPA deserves everything what they did for E-Sport .. with the terms being drawn by blizzard .. its fucking impossible ..
Blizzard deserves everything for creating the game .. but they never gave a rat's ass for the scene .. it was only in 2007 when activision merged with blizzard and got their eyes on the money that is korean esport ..
also, i dont believe that blizzard can handle e-sport .. take a look at WoW and WC3 .. they never made any great progress in the E-sport area, with WoW having a great number of players, it would generate a great e-sport scene and regarding WC3 .. it looks like after SC2 was announced .. they forgot WC3 altogether ..
im not a big fan of kespa but the gamble they made back in the early 2000 is worth the praise while all the other companies that SHOULD have taken care of the potential E-SPORT SCENE and declined to have anything to do with since they see it as a "waste of money" ..
regarding e-sport's growth .. WoW has the BEST chance of having an International E-Sport Scene along with DotA .. but they never gambled on it .. Blizzard instead invested on SC2 because looking at korea, they thought they could get big with it .. IDK if its gonna be big, but it really isn't living up to the Hype ..
my 2 cents
also, that list of timeline about kespa and blizzard is pretty one sided .. blizzard's terms to kespa was REALLY REALLY unreasonable .. here is the list:
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 5. Right to audit KeSPA
On August 22 2010 19:22 CalmDown.Breathe wrote: Blizzard's whole success is tied to E-Sports
They use "e-sports" to promote their products and in the pond of ways to promote products this is not the biggest fish.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Just look at the sales of SC:BW in Korea and you'll see it's possibly the best way to promote your product. Blizzard didn't initially put in much effort to stop and/or control E-Sports because it was free advertising for their product.
man.. why are there so many ignorant people here. Progaming and having no life is almost synonymous. If you want to be like Flash, do you think you can do without practicing for at least half a day, its not as though Kespa forces them to practice, its the requirement of their job. Next, it was already stated clearly that the match would only be allowed if the game wasn't streamed in Korea, and apparently it was, so I don't see why the match can't be stopped since part of the agreement was breached.
All the senseless hate on Kespa is ridiculous, think for a moment, if you were in their shoes and you're getting pushed back against the wall by Blizzard and GomTV.
I don't think it's fair to say that the situation is "because of" Kespa though. We've seen what were supposedly the terms of the contract Blizzard wanted Kespa to sign and they were almost absurd. They clearly didn't want Kespa to be involved. It was a calculated move.
But yeah, they pretty much have what they want now in the GOM broadcasts, if you've seen any of them. I just looked for a VOD a minute ago. The wallpaper in the booths all says STARCRAFT BLIZZARD STARCRAFT BLIZZARD. That's basically all that Blizzard were interested in, I think. They saw the identity of the company as more important than the identity of the contest, and Kespa disagreed.
On August 22 2010 19:51 jayt88 wrote: Next, it was already stated clearly that the match would only be allowed if the game wasn't streamed in Korea, and apparently it was, so I don't see why the match can't be stopped since part of the agreement was breached.
It's completely illogical to have the terms of an agreement between two parties rely on the actions of a third party that is uncontrollable by the two parties entering the agreement (i.e. pirate streamers). If this is the way KeSPA handled negotiations with Blizzard I can see why Blizzard finally said F-it and signed a deal with GOM.
Blizzard will ditch SC2 esport as soon as they come out with SC3 and it won't take 10 years this time. They just want to promote whatever is their latest game and kill off the previous one. Kespa is getting in the way by creating an environment for BW's continued success. Blizzard doesn't care about e-sports. They only want to use it as a promotional tool for their games. They'll try to kill SC2 just like they're trying to kill BW now. But with organizations like KeSPA out of the way, and with complete control of every aspect of the game, the task is much easier.
These are the demands Blizzard made to KeSPA. e스포츠협회에 따르면 블리자드는 △게임 사용기간 1년으로 제한 △스폰서십, 중계권 등 모든 수입에 대해 게임사용료 이상의 로열티 및 서브 라이선스 비용 요구 △리그 관련 모든 운영활동에 대한 사전 승인 △2차 저작물인 경기 콘텐츠에 대한 소유권 △협회에 대한 회계감사 권한 등의 무리한 요구를 해온 것으로 알려졌다.
-Contracts/Licenses on games last for at most one year (I assume renegotiation after each year). -Royaltees and service payments on top of contract/licensing fees for all sponsorship and broadcasting. -All league and operation activities must be vetted by Blizzard in advance. -Copyrights on all secondary content such as match content belong to Blizzard -Auditing rights on Kespa
Can't believe all you fanboys and blind worshipers think Blizzard has altruistic motives on this. They want to put you on the endless upgrade train; like their COD business model. But first they must kill off BW, that is their #1 obstacle atm.
On August 22 2010 20:03 junkacc wrote:Can't believe all you fanboys and blind worshipers think Blizzard has altruistic motives on this.
I find it comical that you would call people that don't agree with you fanboys when each and every one of your post is either dissing or taking a cheap shot at SC2. Do you have an agenda ? or are you pathologically biased ?
On August 22 2010 19:22 CalmDown.Breathe wrote: Blizzard's whole success is tied to E-Sports
They use "e-sports" to promote their products and in the pond of ways to promote products this is not the biggest fish.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Just look at the sales of SC:BW in Korea and you'll see it's possibly the best way to promote your product. Blizzard didn't initially put in much effort to stop and/or control E-Sports because it was free advertising for their product.
Blizzard didn't initially put in much effort to stop and/or control "e-sports" because "e-sports" didn't exist when the game came out and five years later it was a way for them to make money selling an old product. Starcraft 2 is a new product. There was no guarantee that it was going to enjoy the same kind of success and frankly it would have been absurd to expect that. The vast majority of games will make more money as a result of word of mouth generated by betas, reviews, etc.
On August 21 2010 20:08 PlosionCornu wrote: So,having a pro gamer license actually sells your soul to kespa? I mean,If I'm a pro football player,and out of my curiosity I want to partecipate to some other sport event,like,a rally, I can't?
Most contracts in sports have clauses that can void your contract if you get injured while engaging in some reckless/stupid/non-team related act. IE if you're peyton manning (I'm thinking american football, not soccer) it's probably not the smartest idea to take a trip to spain, run with the bulls and possibly risk getting injured for the season.
LOW QUALITY VIDEO! The video is bad, lots of breaks and crap, so dont watch it full screen. I only copied the video and cutted most of the lag, internet crashes and blank screens the livestreamer had. Not responsible for the quality only trying to provide an unavailable IEM match.
KESPA agreed that NaDa could play the showmatch aslong as it wasnt transmited by any means in Korea. But someone made a live stream on a Korean forum and KESPA knew about it so they called in and ordered NaDa to GG out of the 3rd match and finish the showmatch.
Omg thanks so much! Nice foresight on recording the stream there
On August 22 2010 20:03 junkacc wrote: Blizzard will ditch SC2 esport as soon as they come out with SC3 and it won't take 10 years this time. They just want to promote whatever is their latest game and kill off the previous one. Kespa is getting in the way by creating an environment for BW's continued success. Blizzard doesn't care about e-sports. They only want to use it as a promotional tool for their games. They'll try to kill SC2 just like they're trying to kill BW now. But with organizations like KeSPA out of the way, and with complete control of every aspect of the game, the task is much easier.
These are the demands Blizzard made to KeSPA. e스포츠협회에 따르면 블리자드는 △게임 사용기간 1년으로 제한 △스폰서십, 중계권 등 모든 수입에 대해 게임사용료 이상의 로열티 및 서브 라이선스 비용 요구 △리그 관련 모든 운영활동에 대한 사전 승인 △2차 저작물인 경기 콘텐츠에 대한 소유권 △협회에 대한 회계감사 권한 등의 무리한 요구를 해온 것으로 알려졌다.
-Contracts/Licenses on games last for at most one year (I assume renegotiation after each year). -Royaltees and service payments on top of contract/licensing fees for all sponsorship and broadcasting. -All league and operation activities must be vetted by Blizzard in advance. -Copyrights on all secondary content such as match content belong to Blizzard -Auditing rights on Kespa
Can't believe all you fanboys and blind worshipers think Blizzard has altruistic motives on this. They want to put you on the endless upgrade train; like their COD business model. But first they must kill off BW, that is their #1 obstacle atm.
Do you know about NDA? It's a business term and stands for Non-disclosure agreement, meaning each company must not share the contents of the contract with other third parties as well as the public. Now, how do you think you got that information? It was KeSPA who broke the rule and used it against Blizzard as a weapon to deal with Blizzard.
They released the information thinking that the demands were really ridiculous so Blizzard would look like a bad ass. I can't really say anything about the demands because I don't exactly know how bad they really are. But I'm pretty sure, the demand, "Copyrights on all secondary content such as match content belong to Blizzard" is no longer true.
On August 22 2010 20:03 junkacc wrote: Blizzard will ditch SC2 esport as soon as they come out with SC3 and it won't take 10 years this time. They just want to promote whatever is their latest game and kill off the previous one. Kespa is getting in the way by creating an environment for BW's continued success. Blizzard doesn't care about e-sports. They only want to use it as a promotional tool for their games. They'll try to kill SC2 just like they're trying to kill BW now. But with organizations like KeSPA out of the way, and with complete control of every aspect of the game, the task is much easier.
These are the demands Blizzard made to KeSPA. e스포츠협회에 따르면 블리자드는 △게임 사용기간 1년으로 제한 △스폰서십, 중계권 등 모든 수입에 대해 게임사용료 이상의 로열티 및 서브 라이선스 비용 요구 △리그 관련 모든 운영활동에 대한 사전 승인 △2차 저작물인 경기 콘텐츠에 대한 소유권 △협회에 대한 회계감사 권한 등의 무리한 요구를 해온 것으로 알려졌다.
-Contracts/Licenses on games last for at most one year (I assume renegotiation after each year). -Royaltees and service payments on top of contract/licensing fees for all sponsorship and broadcasting. -All league and operation activities must be vetted by Blizzard in advance. -Copyrights on all secondary content such as match content belong to Blizzard -Auditing rights on Kespa
Can't believe all you fanboys and blind worshipers think Blizzard has altruistic motives on this. They want to put you on the endless upgrade train; like their COD business model. But first they must kill off BW, that is their #1 obstacle atm.
Do you know about NDA? It's a business term and stands for Non-disclosure agreement, meaning each company must not share the contents of the contract with other third parties as well as the public. Now, how do you think you got that information? It was KeSPA who broke the rule and used it against Blizzard as a weapon to deal with Blizzard.
They released the information thinking that the demands were really ridiculous so Blizzard would look like a bad ass. I can't really say anything about the demands because I don't exactly know how bad they really are. But I'm pretty sure, the demand, "Copyrights on all secondary content such as match content belong to Blizzard" is no longer true.
read the SC2 EULA .. "Copyrights on all secondary content such as match content belong to Blizzard" is true .. it was changed ONLY in korea i think .. because they were afraid of the korean gov't ..
On August 21 2010 20:08 PlosionCornu wrote: So,having a pro gamer license actually sells your soul to kespa? I mean,If I'm a pro football player,and out of my curiosity I want to partecipate to some other sport event,like,a rally, I can't?
Most contracts in sports have clauses that can void your contract if you get injured while engaging in some reckless/stupid/non-team related act. IE if you're peyton manning (I'm thinking american football, not soccer) it's probably not the smartest idea to take a trip to spain, run with the bulls and possibly risk getting injured for the season.
Kespa controls the players that they hold contracts with plain and simple. Not all pro-gamers. It's why players like SangHo and UpMagic are picking up Starcraft 2 and have a feasible future in Starcraft 2 even though UpMagic is banned from Kespa (i believe unless the country of korea banned him from pro-gaming which is just so so so cruel to him and to us). Also why old pros who are no longer in contract with Kespa are playing Starcraft 2 competitively (oGs). It will be interesting to see what happens to both Kespa and the players though when their times end. Also, it'll be interesting to see how the market works. Will companies sponsor Starcraft 2 tournaments and Starcraft 2 teams the same way they did with Kespa and Starcraft: Broodwar? How will pro-gaming work in the post-Kespa (yes, their reign will end unless they change in a major way) era? Those are the unknown questions although assumptions can be made.
What does Kespa revealing the terms of the agreement have to do with the terms of the agreement being unacceptable?
And yeah, the SC2 EULA itself is very restrictive. I don't know if anything was changed for any particular region or not but there are a million complaints drifting around the internet about that.
On August 22 2010 20:03 junkacc wrote: Blizzard will ditch SC2 esport as soon as they come out with SC3 and it won't take 10 years this time. They just want to promote whatever is their latest game and kill off the previous one. Kespa is getting in the way by creating an environment for BW's continued success. Blizzard doesn't care about e-sports. They only want to use it as a promotional tool for their games. They'll try to kill SC2 just like they're trying to kill BW now. But with organizations like KeSPA out of the way, and with complete control of every aspect of the game, the task is much easier.
These are the demands Blizzard made to KeSPA. e스포츠협회에 따르면 블리자드는 △게임 사용기간 1년으로 제한 △스폰서십, 중계권 등 모든 수입에 대해 게임사용료 이상의 로열티 및 서브 라이선스 비용 요구 △리그 관련 모든 운영활동에 대한 사전 승인 △2차 저작물인 경기 콘텐츠에 대한 소유권 △협회에 대한 회계감사 권한 등의 무리한 요구를 해온 것으로 알려졌다.
-Contracts/Licenses on games last for at most one year (I assume renegotiation after each year). -Royaltees and service payments on top of contract/licensing fees for all sponsorship and broadcasting. -All league and operation activities must be vetted by Blizzard in advance. -Copyrights on all secondary content such as match content belong to Blizzard -Auditing rights on Kespa
Can't believe all you fanboys and blind worshipers think Blizzard has altruistic motives on this. They want to put you on the endless upgrade train; like their COD business model. But first they must kill off BW, that is their #1 obstacle atm.
Do you know about NDA? It's a business term and stands for Non-disclosure agreement, meaning each company must not share the contents of the contract with other third parties as well as the public. Now, how do you think you got that information? It was KeSPA who broke the rule and used it against Blizzard as a weapon to deal with Blizzard.
They released the information thinking that the demands were really ridiculous so Blizzard would look like a bad ass. I can't really say anything about the demands because I don't exactly know how bad they really are. But I'm pretty sure, the demand, "Copyrights on all secondary content such as match content belong to Blizzard" is no longer true.
I read the article you posted. So Blizzard tells KeSPA (through a 3rd party) that all negotiations are off. In response, KeSPA releases what Blizzard's demands were. Whether there was or wasn't an NDA doesn't change the fact that Blizzard made those ridiculous demands. By making those demands and then leaving the negotiation table, Blizzard is saying: "it's our way or the highway, take it or leave it". No entity in their right mind would agree to such draconian terms.
Seems to me KeSPA was trying to alert the public what they were up against. Given that KeSPA can only play the public support card now, it was a good move on their part. If they can rally the fans around the players, and also get the gamebang operators onboard, since Blizzard shot themselves in the foot in that regard, I still see hope for KeSPA.
On August 21 2010 19:59 ChickenLips wrote: NaDa was severly behind he lost more than 10 SCVs in TLO's harassment and was behind in units with TLO's death push on its way.
Kind of a dickish move by KeSPA though.
I don't understand how it is dickish of KeSPA. They agree not let Nada play a game he hasn't practice under the condition it wasn't streamed. The matches were streamed thus the agreement was broken so the bailed out. Which is their right. Where were they at fault exactly? Or all you just a KeSPA hater?
I'm less disappointed with the fact that they canceled the match, than that they tried to throw Nada under the bus. It sucks, but business wise I can see them trying to protect their interests, but then trying to make it look like Nada bitched out during a showmatch is dirty. Nada was so upset about the lag that he gave up easily and refused to do the post match interview? psshh.
Realy i hope Kaspa goes down , sc2 is superior to BW (11 years is alote of time in gaming) so i dont understand how they think BW will outpace sc2 in the long run Atm anyone beting on BW will loose !
Kaspa acts more like a mafia organisation then a esport one.
On August 22 2010 04:05 waxypants wrote: What is this "Korean stream", "American stream", etc. crap .... they're all being streamed via the INTERNET, right?
You can't access Afreeca without a Korean IP or a log in. It's distinctly Korean.
On August 22 2010 22:21 Vespasian wrote: Realy i hope Kaspa goes down , sc2 is superior to BW (11 years is alote of time in gaming) so i dont understand how they think BW will outpace sc2 in the long run Atm anyone beting on BW will loose !
Kaspa acts more like a mafia organisation then a esport one.
As long as the best players are still playing BW I don't think SC2 will succeed and KeSPA still control the pro players as illustrated by how this show-match ended.
I support the billion-dollar corporate conglomerate in its fight against the other! They claim to be about e-sports. But really, they're just in it for the money! This entity's war against its fans has gone on long enough!
I watched all three games before hearing anything about game 3 being cancelled and I never thought twice about it when I saw it. Nada was extremely behind when he ended up leaving, so KeSPA's actions ultimately seem minimal.
On August 22 2010 23:12 Craton wrote: I watched all three games before hearing anything about game 3 being cancelled and I never thought twice about it when I saw it. Nada was extremely behind when he ended up leaving, so KeSPA's actions ultimately seem minimal.
That's irrelevant and not why most people are bitching. It was a show-match and leaving that early can be considered BM and completely unlike NaDa. And let's not forget that we won't get any good quality vods or replays because of KeSPA.
I want to ask why we wont get a replay when Blizzard owns the replays? Any game played by any progamers owned by Kespa on starcraft 2, Blizzard own the replay.
On August 22 2010 19:51 jayt88 wrote: Next, it was already stated clearly that the match would only be allowed if the game wasn't streamed in Korea, and apparently it was, so I don't see why the match can't be stopped since part of the agreement was breached.
It's completely illogical to have the terms of an agreement between two parties rely on the actions of a third party that is uncontrollable by the two parties entering the agreement (i.e. pirate streamers). If this is the way KeSPA handled negotiations with Blizzard I can see why Blizzard finally said F-it and signed a deal with GOM.
Except for the part where ESL could have chosen to not stream the match at all, thus giving the third party no chance to do anything. But it seems you hate KeSPA for no reason, so this may seem illogical to you.
On August 23 2010 00:07 Sgany wrote: I want to ask why we wont get a replay when Blizzard owns the replays? Any game played by any progamers owned by Kespa on starcraft 2, Blizzard own the replay.
Maybe ESL doesn't want to be at odds with KeSPA (guessing).
On August 22 2010 23:12 Craton wrote: I watched all three games before hearing anything about game 3 being cancelled and I never thought twice about it when I saw it. Nada was extremely behind when he ended up leaving, so KeSPA's actions ultimately seem minimal.
That's irrelevant and not why most people are bitching. It was a show-match and leaving that early can be considered BM and completely unlike NaDa. And let's not forget that we won't get any good quality vods or replays because of KeSPA.
Oh darn someone being BM in one match for circumstances out of their control. They'll get released at some point just not at your leisure. People are bitching cause it's just something to bitch about for no other reason than bitching.
On August 22 2010 23:12 Craton wrote: I watched all three games before hearing anything about game 3 being cancelled and I never thought twice about it when I saw it. Nada was extremely behind when he ended up leaving, so KeSPA's actions ultimately seem minimal.
That's irrelevant and not why most people are bitching. It was a show-match and leaving that early can be considered BM and completely unlike NaDa. And let's not forget that we won't get any good quality vods or replays because of KeSPA.
Oh darn someone being BM in one match for circumstances out of their control. They'll get released at some point just not at your leisure. People are bitching cause it's just something to bitch about for no other reason than bitching.
On August 22 2010 15:03 Secret_Agent_360 wrote: For those who are not really aware of KeSPA's business, here's the timeline of KeSPA and its major events in (South) Korea
1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded. 2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA. 3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament. 4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.' 5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea 6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this. 7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online. 8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee. 9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games. 10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting. 11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard. 12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches. 13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business. 14. Blizzard got really mad. 15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft. 16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA. 17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball. 18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea. 19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime. 20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain. 21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason. 22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA. 23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard. 24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard) 25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV 26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA. 27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA. 28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2. 29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs. 30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League). 31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA. 32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2 33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany. 34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem. 35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time.
Most of these are known facts that have happend and are happening in Korea. I read the original version which was in Korean posted in Ruliweb.com and I got somewhat upset about the whole story, so i decided to trasnlate it into English so that many can learn about how KeSPA has been doing to fans, progamers, and Blizzard.
Cool! thx man i actually was looking for something like this for quite some time(lazy looking ofc, like in "waiting till i stumble upon it" )
On August 22 2010 23:04 MichaelJLowell wrote: I support the billion-dollar corporate conglomerate in its fight against the other! They claim to be about e-sports. But really, they're just in it for the money! This entity's war against its fans has gone on long enough!
Agreed (quoted for emphasis).
About the TLO vs. Nada showmatch I think that spectators, whatever part of the world they are from, as well as TLO and Nada definitely deserved a better treatment. Severe lack of courtesy and tact from Kespa.
On August 22 2010 19:51 jayt88 wrote: man.. why are there so many ignorant people here. Progaming and having no life is almost synonymous. If you want to be like Flash, do you think you can do without practicing for at least half a day, its not as though Kespa forces them to practice, its the requirement of their job. Next, it was already stated clearly that the match would only be allowed if the game wasn't streamed in Korea, and apparently it was, so I don't see why the match can't be stopped since part of the agreement was breached.
All the senseless hate on Kespa is ridiculous, think for a moment, if you were in their shoes and you're getting pushed back against the wall by Blizzard and GomTV.
On the bold comment: What exactly are you doing on these forums?
On the fact that it was indeed restreamed to Korea and therefore cancelled: this is a Bs agreement in the first place imo, either let him play or dont let him play.
On August 22 2010 23:12 Craton wrote: I watched all three games before hearing anything about game 3 being cancelled and I never thought twice about it when I saw it. Nada was extremely behind when he ended up leaving, so KeSPA's actions ultimately seem minimal.
That's irrelevant and not why most people are bitching. It was a show-match and leaving that early can be considered BM and completely unlike NaDa. And let's not forget that we won't get any good quality vods or replays because of KeSPA.
Neither we will get good quality games because no lan support and games lagging as hell.
I don't understand why the title was changed to a question. Anyone with even a remote understanding of Korean can definitely know, after a few internet searches, that KeSPA did cancel the showmatch.
Take this:
After the controversy first broke, KeSPA's article on the issue stated thus:
위 메이드 관계자는 이윤열의 3경기 GG 타이밍이 빨랐던 것은 현지 네트워크 문제로 인해 경기가 끊기는 상황이 발생했고, 경기 진행이 어렵다는 판단이 내려졌기 때문이라며 주최 측에 확인한 결과 KeSPA에 대한 이야기는 현지 ESL 스태프의 잘못된 정보 전달로 인해 불거진 것 같다고 말했다.
Basically, the even was canceled due to "network problems." After even more uproar was raised and the ridiculousness was brought to light, they silently changed the wording to:
위 메이드 관계자는 이윤열의 3경기 GG 타이밍이 빨랐던 것은 현지에서 예정되어 있는 다른 행사에 참여하기 위해서 였다. 경기 상황이 좋지 못했고 갑작스럽게 잡힌 이벤트 경기였기 때문에 부담 없이 경기를 하기로 했었다"며 "주최 측에 확인한 결과 KeSPA에 대한 이야기는 현지 ESL 스태프의 잘못된 정보 전달로 인해 불거진 것 같다"고 말했다.
Suddenly, no network problems! The article now states that Nada was busy with other event schedules so he stopped the match. ROFL
Changing the facts to fit their version of the story. If that's not a complete admission of guilt, I don't know what is.
Geez, I'm pretty sure there's gotta be some Korean fluent mods in TL - change the thread title please. This is outrageous.
On August 23 2010 01:20 Baarn wrote:They'll get released at some point just not at your leisure.
I hope you're right but I doubt it.
On August 23 2010 00:07 Sgany wrote: I want to ask why we wont get a replay when Blizzard owns the replays? Any game played by any progamers owned by Kespa on starcraft 2, Blizzard own the replay.
That's just to cover their asses. Blizzard doesn't want anyone making a profit on SC2 replays. Their is nothing they can do if you delete your replays.
From Carmac "...Nada was in Germany to promote another game (not SC2) for his team Wemadefox. Kespa agreed to the show match as long as it was not streamed to Korea and was a local show match. Someone in Korea got ahold of the stream and was restreaming it on a Korean streaming site. Apparently Kespa saw this and called Germany to stop the match..."
A Fomos article suggests that KeSPA had nothing to do with it. The WeMade front office announced:
"ESL was holding an Avalon Online event in Germany, and we received and accepted their abrupt offer for a showmatch with Nada. He hasn't played much SC II, so we allowed the event under the condition that the match be unbroadcasted, but there is no truth to claims that we stopped the match.
There are some rumors going around right now, but it was not WeMade or KeSPA that halted the games. Nada GG'd out quickly in game three because there were network issues, and concluded it would be difficult to proceed with the match. Upon talking to the event administrators, it appears that there was incorrect information about KeSPA relayed to the ESL staff."
So, with two differing stories, ESL people, PLEASE CLARIFY.
On August 21 2010 20:09 Kennigit wrote: Yeah just confirmed with carmac.
Game was restreamed to Korea. Kespa found out, called wemade fox Boom Game done.
WTF, the stream was brought to korea over an uplink with afreeca ... Is this a typical Kespa move ?
I mean, Ongamenet will show GSL, it looks like kespa trys to stop sc2 in any cases... Kespa must really hate SC2, and i guess this is an example to not make "pro-gamer license" imo.
I was quoted from a private chat where at the time of writing I did not have all of the information confirmed (!!!). The chat was off the record, and over its course I clearly indicated what was "official" and confirmed.
On August 22 2010 23:12 Craton wrote: I watched all three games before hearing anything about game 3 being cancelled and I never thought twice about it when I saw it. Nada was extremely behind when he ended up leaving, so KeSPA's actions ultimately seem minimal.
Nada was behind, but the game was in no way over. He just expanded and had a pretty decent tank number. It is perfectly possible for him to have held and gotten back, or at least prolonged the game.
Also, if it was a network issue, I have a feeling that Nada would've just typed "ppp" as per Proleague tradition or somehow signal for a pause. GG'ing due to network issues is just a horrible and completely retarded excuse imo.
Additionally, that gg was quite a bit after the harass done by TLO and Nada had not scouted TLO, so it wasn't like he was gg'ing in response to the harass or an incoming push. It was a really random gg that was completely out of the blue.
On August 24 2010 02:41 FrogOfWar wrote: Maybe I'm missing something, but how would Kespa or Wemadefox contact NaDa in the middle of a game to make him gg out? Did he pick up a phone? O_o
They most likely contacted the person who was over in IEM with him and basicly he went and gave NaDa a tap on the shoulder and said "KeSPA wants you to stop playing right now"
If this is true, its lucky that TLO had an advantage during that last game when Nada gged. What if kespa wanted to cancel the match and Nada was slightly ahead instead. Than the controversy would only blow up even more.
I acutally find it cool that they didn't get to end the game. The rising super pro gamer playing against the superstar who wasn't into the game having played it for only 10 days so far. TLO after really good games, in which both of them showed there strenghts, nearly winning but due to some occurance it got not completely decided. But later after they achieved their full skill they will meet again in some finals. Hope people can magine the epicness of what i am describing.
On August 24 2010 04:09 Disastorm wrote: I think either way TLO would have won the set, I mean he basically won the first match anyway, so he was actually 2-1. (It was a best of 3 right?)
I think Nada started off just as worse in the third game, and Nada won that game.
On August 21 2010 19:59 ChickenLips wrote: NaDa was severly behind he lost more than 10 SCVs in TLO's harassment and was behind in units with TLO's death push on its way.
Kind of a dickish move by KeSPA though.
I don't understand how it is dickish of KeSPA. They agree not let Nada play a game he hasn't practice under the condition it wasn't streamed. The matches were streamed thus the agreement was broken so the bailed out. Which is their right. Where were they at fault exactly? Or all you just a KeSPA hater?
Instead of just explained it that way, KeSPA made bullshit network excuse and then later ninja edited it to another rubbish excuse. Read the thread.
On August 27 2010 16:30 Hugoboss21 wrote: yo can somebody tell me what teams kespa have? apparently wemadefox but what else? i wouldn't say CJentus cause idra doesn't seem to have any problem.
KeSPA basically controls all 11 proteams in Korea at the moment, because KeSPA board is made of representatives (more like sponsors) from the teams. Certain teams are closer to KeSPA than others (remember when some teams still played in GSL while others didn't).
Idra is somewhat an exception because he's not an important or recognized SC1 (to the Koreans), and his contract with CJ will end this month anyway.
Although KeSPA 'controls' the 11 proteams, it's arguable what's the exact nature of the relationship among KeSPA - the sponsors - the progamers - the 2 broadcasting channels. One thing I believe is KeSPA does not really work for progamers' best interests (judging in the last few years whenever there was a conflict of interests). And programers have absolutely no say in any KeSPA's decisions.
On August 21 2010 20:02 buKe wrote: kespa is just preserving its position in esports. they have the big names and if blizzard wants those names to take part in sc2 they need to throw kespa a bone. i would do the same if i was kespa, its business and kespa is a huge organization employing lots of people, their not gonna lose their jobs without a fight.
and i think we'd all prefer kespa to have all control of esports and blizzard can go make another wow expansion, because honestly kespa actually cares about esports.
They might care but this org is still a joke. If a player is being paid for gaming, but doesn't have the freedom to stay inside the match until he really wants to GG-out of it, this is just ridiculous.. Yep, Nada lost more SCVs but I wouldn't say the game has already been over yet. Nada has good micro as well as TLO. And remember game 2 when TLO also led but Nada came fairly good back into game..
EPT
KeSPA
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