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On May 05 2011 09:18 Bosu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 07:27 MoonfireSpam wrote:
Urgh, Idra fucks up another SotG. Day9's retort was totally correct and was pretty much all he could say back. Kidding? Idra DESTROYED day9. He made him look like a fool.
Only as foolish as any one party makes any other party look in a religious debate. Both groups on each side are high-fiving each other on how hard they OWNED the other side in their debate. Neither group actually made any ground.
Day9 touched on it during the debate, but an argument about balance is fruitless unless you have some solid metric by which to judge (directly parallel to most debates about religion). From what I understand, Blizzard balances or attempts to balance the game using a mass of data collected over many, many games from a large variety of skill levels (I.E. using a hard metric)... and though IdrA may fiercely support the idea that skilled Zerg players are at a disadvantage because they're forced through a choke that requires a coinflip, Blizzard isn't likely to change something that IdrA is saying but the numbers aren't showing. Or that they just don't believe necessitates change.
Though IdrA does make compelling arguments, they're only as impacting as asking a group of people for proof of God, or proof that the world started through a chance chemical reaction or giant explosion or whatever. The fact that the other side of the debate does not have a solid response is not proof of the validity of the question. Both sides could ask unanswerable questions all day and successfully get nowhere, which is why Day9 was opting for the responses he did; there was no response to give.
Anyone claiming Day9 is of inferior intellect are showing no depth of soul and only seeing the argument on the surface. Day9 wasn't responding passively because he had no response, he was responding passively because he recognized there was no response to give.
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What day[9] meant when he said that the game would be balanced no matter what, is that in a symmetrical game, if one player has a best response to everything, then there has to be a nash equilibrium in the game so it IS balanced, definitively. As long as there is 1 nash equilibrium in starcraft, it IS balanced. People may only 7 rax off 1 base as terran and only play terran, but that's still balance.
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On May 05 2011 09:30 L3g3nd_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 09:23 s_bushido wrote:
"Hey Idra, what did you win this week?"
"Who cares, Zerg is unplayable."
Day[9]'s a smart guy, but how do you even respond to that? That was not IdrA's argument. IdrA put forward idea's that Day9 either couldn't respond to, or didnt have the time to. IdrA' puts the basic argument that: Zerg cannot scout what P or T is doing early game Zerg does not have a build to counter everything a P or T could be doing, therefore, Zerg is at best a dice roll, which does not make for god competitive play. And as of yet, no one has put forward a good defense to this.
Good summary of what IdrA was saying for the many people in here who seem to not understand or didn't actually see SOTG before posting. IdrA winning has NOTHING to do with the points he was trying to make. The fact is he had to use coinflip builds to win against an inferior opponent because there isn't a solid style of play available for ZvP. As someone who's career is playing SC2, IdrA does not want to be flipping coins for his job. He knows he's a better player who has invested much more time into honing and improving his play than most of his opponents yet he does not get rewarded for that.
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On May 05 2011 09:36 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 09:31 Arcanewinds wrote:
Can a zerg explain to me why they can't get a lair straight after ling speed, then get overlord speed.. and use that to scout?
I mean, I know it must be awful for them to spend 200 gas on the ability to scout and spread overlords out faster (as well as set themselves up for dropping later).. But surely thats viable? It doesn't even take larvae. Ling speed + lair + upgrade, costs a lot of gas. It costs less than sentries, but protoss takes 2 gas WAY faster than zerg does. Gas that you need for roaches to defend or mutas to harass, usually. For example, in the IdrA vs Cruncher series on game 3, IdrA got overlord speed, but only after making 8-10 roaches to defend from any pokes. This lost him the game, because he did not see the 6gate in time, but if he got overlord speed fist and Cruncher poked sooner with a few stalkers/sentries against only zerglings you also lose.
Well, why don't you take 2 gas? Its only 200 extra. If spanishiwa can hold off pressure with no gas, then surely you can hold of pressure while spending gas on over speed. Getting factory + blue flame costs more than over speed (and lair), Dts also cost more. If you're at a stage where you don't know what the opponent is doing i.e. they haven't fast expanded, then 200 gas on overlord speed can't be a bad thing, considering the deficit they've gotten by not FE'ing while you're on 2 base.
I'd like to see a good zerg player going spanishiwa style + gas for overlord speed.
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On May 05 2011 09:40 rO_Or wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 09:30 L3g3nd_ wrote:On May 05 2011 09:23 s_bushido wrote:
"Hey Idra, what did you win this week?"
"Who cares, Zerg is unplayable."
Day[9]'s a smart guy, but how do you even respond to that? That was not IdrA's argument. IdrA put forward idea's that Day9 either couldn't respond to, or didnt have the time to. IdrA' puts the basic argument that: Zerg cannot scout what P or T is doing early game Zerg does not have a build to counter everything a P or T could be doing, therefore, Zerg is at best a dice roll, which does not make for god competitive play. And as of yet, no one has put forward a good defense to this. Good summary of what IdrA was saying for the many people in here who seem to not understand or didn't actually see SOTG before posting. IdrA winning has NOTHING to do with the points he was trying to make. The fact is he had to use coinflip builds to win against an inferior opponent because there isn't a solid style of play available for ZvP. As someone who's career is playing SC2, IdrA does not want to be flipping coins for his job. He knows he's a better player who has invested much more time into honing and improving his play than most of his opponents yet he does not get rewarded for that.
I would agree with this as true with one caveat: there isn't a solid style of play available for ZvP that he (IdrA) is aware of.
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I think certain pro's need to get used to the idea that coin flip and bo wins are a very big part of this game. Much more so than they ever were in broodwar. At least for now.
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On May 05 2011 09:15 Swagasaurus wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me that people will come and argue on these forums when they have no credibility at all compared to a top player like IdrA.
Even Day[9] himself has less room to talk about current balance issues as he IS NOT a top level player. Sorry to break it to all you kiddies but he is nowhere near IdrA's level and spends much less time actually playing the game. I don't understand why people even take his opinion so seriously.
You are so biased it is insane. IdrA's view of the game is 100% through zerg eyes. Day9 does not have this limitation. There is nothing compelling or intelligent about IdrA's argument. He uses specific examples of what doesn't work, yet he doesn't try to come up with solutions.
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On May 05 2011 09:39 thatonekid.907 wrote:
What day[9] meant when he said that the game would be balanced no matter what, is that in a symmetrical game, if one player has a best response to everything, then there has to be a nash equilibrium in the game so it IS balanced, definitively. As long as there is 1 nash equilibrium in starcraft, it IS balanced. People may only 7 rax off 1 base as terran and only play terran, but that's still balance.
That argument while true is completely irrelevant to starcraft where the desired balance is equal opportunity between all three races. PvP is perfectly balanced yet Blizzard is taking steps to change the matchup because they want to produce a quality product that doesn't force players to play a one-dimensional game. Day9 was just trying to sound smart in loss of a valid counter-argument to IdrA by bringing this up.
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On May 05 2011 09:18 Bosu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 07:27 MoonfireSpam wrote:
Urgh, Idra fucks up another SotG. Day9's retort was totally correct and was pretty much all he could say back. Kidding? Idra DESTROYED day9. He made him look like a fool.
No he didn't. The argument ended because there was nothing that could possible make greg stop arguing except to stop first. IdrA raged like a fool and Day9 stopped responding to the troll.
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On May 05 2011 09:30 L3g3nd_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 09:23 s_bushido wrote:
"Hey Idra, what did you win this week?"
"Who cares, Zerg is unplayable."
Day[9]'s a smart guy, but how do you even respond to that? That was not IdrA's argument. IdrA put forward idea's that Day9 either couldn't respond to, or didnt have the time to. IdrA' puts the basic argument that: Zerg cannot scout what P or T is doing early game Zerg does not have a build to counter everything a P or T could be doing, therefore, Zerg is at best a dice roll, which does not make for god competitive play. And as of yet, no one has put forward a good defense to this.
and Day[9] is arguing that:
Zerg cannot scout what P or T are doing early game
Zerg does not have a build to counter everthing a P or T could be doing.
therefore, zerg need to accept that disadvantage is part of the game as it stands and move forward. assuming the worst case senario that blizzard will never fix it and the next spanishiwa comes up with unstopable early zerg scouting.
because anything else is to admit defeat and abandon zerg as a viable competitive race.
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On May 05 2011 09:48 artanis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 09:18 Bosu wrote:On May 05 2011 07:27 MoonfireSpam wrote:
Urgh, Idra fucks up another SotG. Day9's retort was totally correct and was pretty much all he could say back. Kidding? Idra DESTROYED day9. He made him look like a fool. No he didn't. The argument ended because there was nothing that could possible make greg stop arguing except to stop first. IdrA raged like a fool and Day9 stopped responding to the troll.
What argument? IdrA gave his reasoning for what he was saying and all Day9 could do was say " well I don't know what that means.." "well I just don't like that statement.." Good "argument" Bro..
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On May 05 2011 08:49 Hider wrote:
No its actually not a good post, as he kind of misunderstood what Idra was trying to say. Obv you can try to guess based on limited information on what your opp is trying to do. But its still a guessing game. And if your limited to a guessing game you need solid allroud BO, that let you not die and at the same die not let you get far behind.
Not that I agre with Idra though.
How is this any different than what any other race has to deal with? By the time I can get hallucination or an obs, from what I can gather from the super vagueness of "I can't scout" coming from Idra, is past the point at which he's referring to. Someone explained rather well earlier in the thread that Hallucination is either gotten early and delays Warp Gate or it's gotten after Warp Gate and at best takes about another minute.
On average WG research finishes around 6 minutes, so at best a Hallucinated phoenix would arrive around 7 minutes to 7:20. Obviously overseers aren't as fast as Phoenixes, but a hallucinated phoenix doesn't require that speed to appropriately scout. An overseer will get you that information during that period of time just as well as a phoenix will.
And if you're not, maybe you should? I see zergs commonly stay on one gas for awhile, perhaps they should be getting lair earlier, perhaps they should be getting overseers earlier, perhaps they should be using changelings more creatively, maybe they should be scouting the front more, maybe they should be more aggressive instead of being more passive, maybe they, instead of asking "What are you doing?" they can FORCE the opponent to say "This is my only option out of this situation."--and they can then plan several steps ahead. Repeating Day9's sentiments: there are areas unexplored, I genuinely believe there are options that exist that zergs almost willingly ignore because it doesn't follow this pseudo-game-wide-build-order they for some reason adhere so strictly to.
Up until recently the Nydus Network has almost been completely ignored. The ... insanity, behind that thinking is beyond me, the ability to attack from anywhere at any time, it seems...stupid almost to ignore such a powerful tool. And now, if you watch some of the higher level more successful zergs, they often implement nydus networks and overlord drops into their play that makes the immobile "death ball" mentality almost silly looking. And that's the sort of thing that is currently unexplored, tools given to the Zerg that just haven't been looked at or maybe haven't been used yet.
I would say unequivocally that Zerg is the most complicated race, and it will take awhile for it to be figured out, and hey maybe it really will take a patch to fix, but we can't say that for sure, especially not yet.
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On May 05 2011 09:40 Arcanewinds wrote:
Well, why don't you take 2 gas? Its only 200 extra. If spanishiwa can hold off pressure with no gas, then surely you can hold of pressure while spending gas on over speed. Getting factory + blue flame costs more than over speed (and lair), Dts also cost more. If you're at a stage where you don't know what the opponent is doing i.e. they haven't fast expanded, then 200 gas on overlord speed can't be a bad thing, considering the deficit they've gotten by not FE'ing while you're on 2 base.
I'd like to see a good zerg player going spanishiwa style + gas for overlord speed.
Er, the whole point of Spanishiwa's opening is that you use the 3-6 drones (+2 for extractors) that you'd normally use on gas to mine minerals, thereby giving you enough minerals to quickly saturate two bases and pump out Queens to defend.
You can't saturate both bases, have forces to defend and tech all at the same time.
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Heres two simple questions (assuming this game is perfectly balanced), followed by a really long and possibly worthless post regarding my thoughts on balance:
How many games have you seen P/T beat a Z off 1 base?
How many games have you seen Z beat a P/T off 1 base?
Sure, zerg "needs" to expand, you might say. I think zerg player's particular penchant for fast expansions is born more from the fact that theres literally nothing at all scary you could make off 1 base as zerg that the opposing player has to worry about at all. I've played games where a protoss forge fast expands, I stay on 1 base, deny ALL scouting, and do a massive baneling or roach bust. Sometimes it works, if the protoss fucking sucks. The other times, they build more buildings, throw 2 forcefields and continue to chronoboost probes while my god damn units skitter around like retards taking hits from 3 cannons. Or consider terran for a bane/roach allin EVEN if they CC first. In the amount of time it takes you to kill their wall of barracks with roaches (or if you're really fucking stupid, banelings), theres a tank/marauder/banshee out.
Typing this out actually reminds me of a game on old shakuras between a zerg and protoss. I forget who the players were but it was some pro match. The toss forge FE'd and zerg went pool > expo (because you can't really hatch first against protoss who is almost certainly forge FEing on shakuras). The zerg was obviously planning on staying on two bases and made a HUGE force of roach/hydra, that would have easily destroyed the protoss army if it could get into the protoss's base. It was old shakuras so he went through the back. The protoss had NO IDEA a roach/hydra (basically allin) was coming from the zerg, he didn't see anything until his rocks started being destroyed. All he had to do to save himself from losing was cast FF over and over until his collosii popped, and a bunch more units were warped in.
I'm not exactly sure where I'm going with this except that it seems (to me) it is a lot safer to play P and T and they reward the higher skilled player a greater percentage of the time (in any MU). I don't really think it is completely awful or I sure as shit wouldn't be playing zerg still, but it does seem easier for random things to kill a zerg than it does protoss or terran.
Then again, theres nothing like swarming the shit out of some terran with a huge zergling/roach force as I cackle maniacally.
And one last thing: the infestor change DEFINITELY helped with the how fragile zerg sometimes seems.
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On May 05 2011 09:50 Ryno00 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 09:30 L3g3nd_ wrote:On May 05 2011 09:23 s_bushido wrote:
"Hey Idra, what did you win this week?"
"Who cares, Zerg is unplayable."
Day[9]'s a smart guy, but how do you even respond to that? That was not IdrA's argument. IdrA put forward idea's that Day9 either couldn't respond to, or didnt have the time to. IdrA' puts the basic argument that: Zerg cannot scout what P or T is doing early game Zerg does not have a build to counter everything a P or T could be doing, therefore, Zerg is at best a dice roll, which does not make for god competitive play. And as of yet, no one has put forward a good defense to this. and Day[9] is arguing that: Zerg cannot scout what P or T are doing early game Zerg does not have a build to counter everthing a P or T could be doing. therefore, zerg need to accept that disadvantage is part of the game as it stands and move forward. assuming the worst case senario that blizzard will never fix it and the next spanishiwa comes up with unstopable early zerg scouting. because anything else is to admit defeat and abandon zerg as a viable competitive race.
until I see spanishiwa's playstyle work in gsl code-s, then i'll actually take it seriously, until then IdrA plays drunk on ladder and still floats around rank 1-10 on north america.
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So... what does IdrA say when he lose ZvZ? I assume his winrate in ZvZ against nonkoreans is 100% seeing as his argument is that he is eligible to win every game against foreigners because of how much time he has put into his practice and whenever he does not win it is because of balance issues keeping him down. So then he should win every single mirror right? Although I would assume that he has figured out a different way to rationalize those losses, something about the matchup just being inherently random so whenever he loses it is because he was unlucky.
I am sick of IdrA's ego fueling these useless debates on teamliquid time and time again. He has no more credentials to say that the game is imbalanced than any other pro, if anything he has less credentials since he uses the balance card so often that it is reasonable to assume that it is not done objectively.
ps. can we please get a fixed terran member on state of the game, painuser was awesome I would love it if he were on every time but I guess he might be prevented by other stuff.
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On May 05 2011 09:45 artanis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 09:15 Swagasaurus wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me that people will come and argue on these forums when they have no credibility at all compared to a top player like IdrA.
Even Day[9] himself has less room to talk about current balance issues as he IS NOT a top level player. Sorry to break it to all you kiddies but he is nowhere near IdrA's level and spends much less time actually playing the game. I don't understand why people even take his opinion so seriously. You are so biased it is insane. IdrA's view of the game is 100% through zerg eyes. Day9 does not have this limitation. There is nothing compelling or intelligent about IdrA's argument. He uses specific examples of what doesn't work, yet he doesn't try to come up with solutions.
The reason he feels so strongly about this is because he, and many other zergs, have spent VAST amounts of times trying to come up with solutions to no avail...
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SOTG 37: Problems with Zerg Scouting
Assuming that everyone watched State of the Game yesterday, there was a discussion on how Zerg has a lot of trouble getting scouting information due to the slowness of overlords and walled off bases. I totally agree with IdrA's argument, but I wanted to know if this is a problem with the Terran race or the Zerg race because as Protoss, I understand that it is almost always necessary to get an early Robotics to see what Terran is doing. My question is, what is wrong with going an early lair, like the Protoss would normally go early Robotics, and then continuing the game on like normal otherwise?
P.S. Overseer: 97 seconds, 200 minerals, 200 gas; Observer: 105sec, 225 minerals, 175 gas.
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On May 05 2011 09:45 artanis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 09:15 Swagasaurus wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me that people will come and argue on these forums when they have no credibility at all compared to a top player like IdrA.
Even Day[9] himself has less room to talk about current balance issues as he IS NOT a top level player. Sorry to break it to all you kiddies but he is nowhere near IdrA's level and spends much less time actually playing the game. I don't understand why people even take his opinion so seriously. You are so biased it is insane. IdrA's view of the game is 100% through zerg eyes. Day9 does not have this limitation. There is nothing compelling or intelligent about IdrA's argument. He uses specific examples of what doesn't work, yet he doesn't try to come up with solutions.
day[9] also didn't know IdrA left his games with kiwikaki up to luck since flipping coins at his level is more probably of winning than playing straight up against a competent opponent. IdrA continuously stated.. over and over... that he cheesed nearly all his games, and that the only reason he won is because Kiwikaki didn't figure out how retarded IdrA was playing.
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On May 05 2011 09:18 Bosu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 07:27 MoonfireSpam wrote:
Urgh, Idra fucks up another SotG. Day9's retort was totally correct and was pretty much all he could say back. Kidding? Idra DESTROYED day9. He made him look like a fool.
lol seriously? saying the same thing over and over again that really has no good response given the resources they had at the current time is making him look like a fool? day9 shouldnt have even responded to idra's rants its pointless like he said its not balance talk its venting. He did the smart thing after a while and just decided not to respond. Idra talks in absolutes when he talks about balance, absolutes are really never correct when talking about starcraft balance "zergs can never scout" "zergs always get behind" statements like this made idra look very ignorant. Of course its easy to be blinded by this fact if you play zerg and have been conditioned to feel the same way as idra through listening to him rant about absolutes for hours on end.
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EPT
