Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 900

On May 04 2011 14:15 forgotten0ne wrote:
Tyler is debating with a three-year competitive debater... he's not going to win.

On May 04 2011 14:15 LightWireEX wrote:


Exactly. Tyler is acting like a fucking child. This is stupid.

On May 04 2011 14:10 VanGarde wrote:
On the little rant I really have to stress that I feel that the message Day9 tried to bring fourth is something that is severely missing right now. I am not sure he got it across as well as he could had but the bottom line of his argument is that yeah you can keep picking individual situations and scenarios and argue that one race is not favored in said scenario. But it is really hard without lots of data to say that this is an imbalance or not and that the reason it is not useful to discuss imbalance all the time is that discussing it over and over is not going to make anything any better.

And the whole "balance" mentality that has cursed sc2 since the beta I feel is to a large part IdrA's doing. There definitely is a huge problem in sc2 where a massive part of the community is so caught up on balance, you can't watch a stream or a tournament anymore without the comments being all about "<insert name of player who won who plays race x> won, thus <race x> is op." Then that player loses in the next game and the comments are "lol yeah, <race x> just lost so I wonder which race is really op".

This mentality is partly spawned I think from the larger community, this is what the general consensus is when this is discussed that it is a result of the game being young, and a lot of people coming over from wow or other games where balance discussions were much more core.

On May 04 2011 14:14 Jotoco wrote:



Nope.

If he does a risky/all in build and you SCOUT IT IN TIME, you should be ahead. If EVERY TIME I go for a risky/ all in and my opponent goes eco I am ahead, then it is a coin flip and there is no need to play the game, we always could just flip coins and award the money.

Like Rock/Paper/Scissors. It is perfectly balanced, but there is NO WAY it can be a competitive sport, because there is no skill involved. You choose a "weapon" and the you either win or lose. If it happened in SC2 (you choose a build and either win or lose there) then it is no point to play!

On May 04 2011 14:08 Enervate wrote:

Idra's arguments are not valid. His followers and zerg players and low level players who take everything a pro says as truths will believe what he says anyways though. The only refute there is that Idra's opinions are skewed due to personal bias, which is what Day9 was saying in a nutshell.

Idra projects his own bias through what he says. He says he can't scout and therefore it is difficult to respond correctly to aggressive play. Then he says he has been doing a lot of aggressive cheeses, and as we can see, it's been paying off for him. However, he says he got lucky because his opponents didn't expect it and didn't scout it. Speedlings can deny protoss scouting easily before hallu or obs, which are both way too late. Scans require the sacrifice of a mule, with no guarantee you will scan the right place, so terran has a chance to end up behind and without knowledge. Sound familiar?

So basically, all 3 races are in a pretty similar situation. However, Idra points out his own races imbalance, because I admit he is one of the most skilled players and he expects to win. Other players don't point this out because they might benefit from this phenomenon since they are able to beat more-skilled players.

The problem is Idra hasn't been arguing bad game design, like what Tyler was saying, he might have a point if he did, but instead, he just states that his own race is worst off without acknowledging other races' viewpoints. But there's nothing wrong with not being objective, unless of course you're trying to talk about imbalance to the public and possibly ignorant viewers who might mistake your subjectivity for objectivity and might mistake your opinion for fact.

On May 04 2011 14:15 Duoma wrote:
Incontrol and Idra seem to becompletely missing the point of the Tyler's argument.

All he is saying is that the EG representative did not bring full information, which he should have. He's saying that you either discuss things with full information, or don't discuss things at all.

On May 02 2011 14:08 Hot_Bid wrote:

I'd like to state that just because this site is called "Team Liquid" it doesn't mean we don't have standards for fairness and impartiality. We put this in news, and we will cover / calendar / treat this tournament as any other major tournament regardless of whether Liquid is in it. Whether I believe either side is right in this instance doesn't change how we should treat this discussion on our site. "It's TeamLiquid's forum" should never be used to support unjustified criticism.

The best result that can come of this discussion is that 1) people forget about this issue and enjoy that we have another $10,000 league, and 2) EG considers doing server switching for their next league.