EPTAll he is saying is that the EG representative did not bring full information, which he should have. He's saying that you either discuss things with full information, or don't discuss things at all.
Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 900
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Duoma
United States396 Posts
All he is saying is that the EG representative did not bring full information, which he should have. He's saying that you either discuss things with full information, or don't discuss things at all. | ||
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NExt
Australia1651 Posts
iNcontroL: "Tyler we've been friends for a long time, its about to go down..." so theres still much ♥ | ||
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VENDIZ
1575 Posts
.. all this is gonna result in is moody people who'll carry a grudge against one another for the remainder of the show - which doesn't do anyone any good. Why the hell have people asked for discussions like this? It's pointless and has nothing to gain from it.. | ||
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nekuodah
England2409 Posts
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On May 04 2011 14:15 forgotten0ne wrote: Tyler is debating with a three-year competitive debater... he's not going to win. Tyler is a philosophy major from Duke. He can stand on his own. | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
On May 04 2011 14:15 LightWireEX wrote: Exactly. Tyler is acting like a fucking child. This is stupid. This is kinda embarrassing for TL...  | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On May 04 2011 14:10 VanGarde wrote: On the little rant I really have to stress that I feel that the message Day9 tried to bring fourth is something that is severely missing right now. I am not sure he got it across as well as he could had but the bottom line of his argument is that yeah you can keep picking individual situations and scenarios and argue that one race is not favored in said scenario. But it is really hard without lots of data to say that this is an imbalance or not and that the reason it is not useful to discuss imbalance all the time is that discussing it over and over is not going to make anything any better. And the whole "balance" mentality that has cursed sc2 since the beta I feel is to a large part IdrA's doing. There definitely is a huge problem in sc2 where a massive part of the community is so caught up on balance, you can't watch a stream or a tournament anymore without the comments being all about "<insert name of player who won who plays race x> won, thus <race x> is op." Then that player loses in the next game and the comments are "lol yeah, <race x> just lost so I wonder which race is really op". This mentality is partly spawned I think from the larger community, this is what the general consensus is when this is discussed that it is a result of the game being young, and a lot of people coming over from wow or other games where balance discussions were much more core. I'd like to echo that the worst thing about balance discussion is the venom that it instills in the community. Just following jtv stream chats, there's so many "take that you dirty terran/protoss/zerg" and "omg that race is so op" and it's only getting worse over time as far as I can tell. It's so depressing. I didn't follow enough of the beta to determine what caused it...but it's so, so depressing. Honestly, some stream chats are so hostile to my race I don't even bother opening them, and that's terrible. | ||
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
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seiferoth10
3362 Posts
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Krehlmar
Sweden1149 Posts
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Lamppost
Canada317 Posts
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Chicane
United States7875 Posts
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Mailing
United States3087 Posts
Could at zerg, in starcraft 2, with their lack of scouting ability, EVER achieve a win rate as high as Flash/Jaedong regardless of skill level? Say NesTea, the best zerg in SC2 arguably, played a random Code A Terran. This terran decides to do a coin toss build that zerg cannot scout if terran makes the effort to prevent overlords. There is a 20% chance that a zerg will fast expand/overdrone/not make spines/etc and that this blind build will work. Bam, there is a 1/5 x 1/5 chance (4%) that NesTea is out of the BO3 tourney to a worse player every time he plays. Obviously these are all made up numbers, and that every matchup has blind build order wins, but the fact is, even if a zerg decided to sack 300 minerals in overlords, putting them behind, there is still a low chance they will see what they need to see. This is why there is no zerg king. There is no zerg that has consistent wins. This is why MorroW is basically the only pro zerg that has poped up outside of korea in the last few months... | ||
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Sermokala
United States14131 Posts
But Team liquid is team liquid and It plays by a scary set of rules. Incontrol isn't treating it like its Teamliquid hes treating it like the real world. Tyler is a product of this forum. And Liquid Does what liquid does. It scares me when people talk like this but its the truth. | ||
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Trict
Canada182 Posts
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
On May 04 2011 14:14 Jotoco wrote: Nope. If he does a risky/all in build and you SCOUT IT IN TIME, you should be ahead. If EVERY TIME I go for a risky/ all in and my opponent goes eco I am ahead, then it is a coin flip and there is no need to play the game, we always could just flip coins and award the money. Like Rock/Paper/Scissors. It is perfectly balanced, but there is NO WAY it can be a competitive sport, because there is no skill involved. You choose a "weapon" and the you either win or lose. If it happened in SC2 (you choose a build and either win or lose there) then it is no point to play! That's the same for every race, you have to gaudge how much risks you can go. But you're not talking about balancing, your talking about game design. | ||
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Justanx
United States240 Posts
On May 04 2011 14:08 Enervate wrote: Idra's arguments are not valid. His followers and zerg players and low level players who take everything a pro says as truths will believe what he says anyways though. The only refute there is that Idra's opinions are skewed due to personal bias, which is what Day9 was saying in a nutshell. Idra projects his own bias through what he says. He says he can't scout and therefore it is difficult to respond correctly to aggressive play. Then he says he has been doing a lot of aggressive cheeses, and as we can see, it's been paying off for him. However, he says he got lucky because his opponents didn't expect it and didn't scout it. Speedlings can deny protoss scouting easily before hallu or obs, which are both way too late. Scans require the sacrifice of a mule, with no guarantee you will scan the right place, so terran has a chance to end up behind and without knowledge. Sound familiar? So basically, all 3 races are in a pretty similar situation. However, Idra points out his own races imbalance, because I admit he is one of the most skilled players and he expects to win. Other players don't point this out because they might benefit from this phenomenon since they are able to beat more-skilled players. The problem is Idra hasn't been arguing bad game design, like what Tyler was saying, he might have a point if he did, but instead, he just states that his own race is worst off without acknowledging other races' viewpoints. But there's nothing wrong with not being objective, unless of course you're trying to talk about imbalance to the public and possibly ignorant viewers who might mistake your subjectivity for objectivity and might mistake your opinion for fact. So you are saying that you are an elitist, just because low level players are agreeing. That only masters players can only have an opinion. Both persons had valid arguments, and it was vented. To say just because others agree with Idra instead of Day 9 or the other way around. The only problem is people like you who look down your nose at people who aren't in your league. Then that has no use for your argument. Not only are these players the best to talk about there views. Its is the right of us fanboys to agree or disagree. | ||
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Shaetan
United States1175 Posts
I think the reason Colbi didn't reveal the specifics of Liquid's reasons for not being in the EG Master's Cup is because it wasn't his place to do so. If Liquid had decided they did not want to share their reasons and Colbi had taken it upon himself to reveal that it would have been a dick move. Incontrol basically explained it, Liquid's decision is something that they can share if they want to, and your decision to state the why behind it is fine, however bashing Colbi for not revealing more information than was his right to is kinda meh. | ||
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densha
United States797 Posts
On May 04 2011 14:15 Duoma wrote: Incontrol and Idra seem to becompletely missing the point of the Tyler's argument. All he is saying is that the EG representative did not bring full information, which he should have. He's saying that you either discuss things with full information, or don't discuss things at all. The real point is that "they were asked and declined" is just such a standard, easy PR response. It's so harmless and generic that it's not really on a "side" per se, it's just answering a question on a forum. Tyler is blowing the whole thing out of proportion. | ||
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dtz
5834 Posts
On May 02 2011 14:08 Hot_Bid wrote: I'd like to state that just because this site is called "Team Liquid" it doesn't mean we don't have standards for fairness and impartiality. We put this in news, and we will cover / calendar / treat this tournament as any other major tournament regardless of whether Liquid is in it. Whether I believe either side is right in this instance doesn't change how we should treat this discussion on our site. "It's TeamLiquid's forum" should never be used to support unjustified criticism. The best result that can come of this discussion is that 1) people forget about this issue and enjoy that we have another $10,000 league, and 2) EG considers doing server switching for their next league. It's a website for Starcraft progaming News + Community + Team | ||
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