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On April 06 2011 14:40 Essentia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 14:35 ilbh wrote:
I'm disappointed, was expecting some decent balance discussions, but they didn't take idra too seriously and trolled. Day9 is annoying when he says he cant take balance discussions seriously. I mean he doesnt play the game nearly as much as the other players yet he immediately dismisses Idras claims of imbalance. I am pretty sure Idra is more of an expert of sc2's state of balance since he plays sooooooooooo much, yet day 9 wont even take him serious and just instead says "im gunna have to resort to trolling any balance discussion"
Not to discredit Idra or his thoughts on Zerg, but he's been known to whine about his race being helpless from day 1 on when he became a competitive BW player. Yes, he acknowledges the differences from BW to SC2 between Terran then and Zerg now but to say he is so much further of an expert may be a stretch. Day9 might not play as much but he is around SC2 just as much, plays every race and every matchup, and does analyze the game from more than results or matchup perspective.
Plus his points are extremely valid, when zerg loses it might look a bit more shocking but they are in a shape right now where they can win, and they can lose, its not like they have something that makes them 100% helpless, like the reaper build with proper control was back in end of beta/early release.
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I found the part about zerg aiming for 8gas, and day9's comments about switching to supply efficient units lategame really fascinating. I think aiming for gas saturation instead of having 16 drones mining mins on each base might open up new paths for zergs. I do know that when I've messed around with things like queen/broodlord/hydra in teamgames it's gotten a lot of imba complaints, but it's hard to know for sure until pros start using those things.
Right now the biggest problem with zerg lategame is the heavy reliance on upgrades negates the effectiveness of zerg tech switches to an extent, but I think day9's point was absolutely correct. There is an incredible amount of unexplored potential in the game that talking about the game being broken this early on is simply not something anyone should take seriously.
Frankly I'm glad him and tyler stuck to their guns and rejected the idea of focusing on supposed imbalances so bluntly. The community needs people like them to counteract the whine-first nature of a lot of players that should really focus on improving instead of balance.
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On April 06 2011 14:43 Zim23 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 14:31 eviltomahawk wrote:On April 06 2011 14:08 Louky wrote:All that talk about twinkies at the beginning of the cast... + Show Spoiler + My god... It's beautiful... On April 06 2011 14:19 Zlasher wrote:
there'll be between 450 and 775 VODs from group stages alone
thats.....obscene... I'm a bit worried about the sheer number of VODs available for the entire tournament, and possibly for all 3 seasons of the tournament. It's absolutely insane to completely follow, especially compared to other tournaments like GSL and others. Then again, the more games, the better (possibly). The more games that are casted, the more likely an especially epic game will come out, which is especially good for casual audiences who thrive off of watching the occasional epic Clide vs Leenock VOD instead of every match of GSL live. That's why things like SC Center will be super clutch. You'll get to know the next day what matches were 'can't miss' or at least worth watching. There will be plenty of places to clue us in on what's important I think.
Keeping up with results isn't the issue. It's having leagues like GSL losing a part of their subscribers.
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On April 06 2011 14:44 odder wrote:
I think one of the great things about the show is that it is very light on the balance discussions, which I prefer honestly.
Why though? If anything the best place to talk about balance in the SC2 community is when you have a bunch of the top players all in one place, rather than having a bunch of random newbies flaming each other on some random forum.
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The whole balance thing was handled very well IMO. The game is still so new, and so unknown, that we really don't have 100% knowledge about what is best when.
Just as an example, ROOTDestiny has been doing a lot of ZvT lately with 0 banelings. Just the thought of being able to deal with mass bio balls with no banelings what so ever "proves" to use Idra's words, that Zerg is a largely unknown race, with a great deal of potential.
People mostly just need to abandon many of the "standard" mindsets that they go into every game already seeded in their minds.
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love sotg, listen regularly and will continue to support it while getting more friends into it, but if you arent going to work with idra or discuss his points, maybe don't bother having him on, imo. that's a strength that he brings and it goes wasted when <tonight> happens. awkward, disrupts flow and cockteases those with stock in idra's opinion.
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On April 06 2011 14:40 Essentia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 14:35 ilbh wrote:
I'm disappointed, was expecting some decent balance discussions, but they didn't take idra too seriously and trolled. Day9 is annoying when he says he cant take balance discussions seriously. I mean he doesnt play the game nearly as much as the other players yet he immediately dismisses Idras claims of imbalance. I am pretty sure Idra is more of an expert of sc2's state of balance since he plays sooooooooooo much, yet day 9 wont even take him serious and just instead says "im gunna have to resort to trolling any balance discussion"
I took the question itself as trolling with how it was worded. So I don't blame them for dismissing any real discussion about balance.
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Idra had alot of really good points....
I dont think the game is broken at all, but was really hoping you'd explore that further. I do think zerg is by far the hardest to play though. Some 30 apm champion toss can 4 gate you and you have to scramble to scout it and make every larva count to put together the proper defense.
I do think zerg is played a bit improperly though....too drone heavy and predictable alot of times. Zerg can reproduce an army pretty much out of nowhere and I think surprises like that need to be explored more. July does this quite a bit and that more aggressive style is something Zerg NEEDS to do more often to prevent 2base turtle deathballs.
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Yea, day just randomly theorycrafting and trolling the whole time wasn't the right way to deal with Idra's points. Why didn't he just give a couple of his own good points if he has them? He didn't even give one good argument or address any of Idra's individual points and instead just went laughed the whole time.
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I think it almost violates Day9's principles to discuss balance because he feels that players should just play, and let Blizzard sort things out. He just doesn't seem to feel that balance discussions are productive.
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Didn't BIsu revolutionize PvZ back in the BW days?
There is going to be a counter Bisu, calling that right now.
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On April 06 2011 14:46 Bosu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 14:43 Zim23 wrote:On April 06 2011 14:31 eviltomahawk wrote:On April 06 2011 14:08 Louky wrote:All that talk about twinkies at the beginning of the cast... + Show Spoiler + My god... It's beautiful... On April 06 2011 14:19 Zlasher wrote:
there'll be between 450 and 775 VODs from group stages alone
thats.....obscene... I'm a bit worried about the sheer number of VODs available for the entire tournament, and possibly for all 3 seasons of the tournament. It's absolutely insane to completely follow, especially compared to other tournaments like GSL and others. Then again, the more games, the better (possibly). The more games that are casted, the more likely an especially epic game will come out, which is especially good for casual audiences who thrive off of watching the occasional epic Clide vs Leenock VOD instead of every match of GSL live. That's why things like SC Center will be super clutch. You'll get to know the next day what matches were 'can't miss' or at least worth watching. There will be plenty of places to clue us in on what's important I think. Keeping up with results isn't the issue. It's having leagues like GSL losing a part of their subscribers.
While I do think that this is an issue, I also think that having multiple leagues has the possibility of creating competition between the leagues to have better production values and matches to attract and possibly grow the limited supply of possible paying subscribers. I think think this was touched upon in this SotG episode. Of course, at some point it will be damaging to the community if too many more large leagues are created, but at this point, I think there is enough growth potential to allow for several competing leagues to spur each other to improve.
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Balance discussion is probably best left in private when it is people who are well known in the community talking.
It just has an overall negative effect, people tend to hang on to words said by certain players and use it to fuel their own personal bias which gets released in various other SC2 communities and even places like live report threads.
Not like talking about it on STOG will change anything way.
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On April 06 2011 14:46 Bosu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 14:43 Zim23 wrote:On April 06 2011 14:31 eviltomahawk wrote:On April 06 2011 14:08 Louky wrote:All that talk about twinkies at the beginning of the cast... + Show Spoiler + My god... It's beautiful... On April 06 2011 14:19 Zlasher wrote:
there'll be between 450 and 775 VODs from group stages alone
thats.....obscene... I'm a bit worried about the sheer number of VODs available for the entire tournament, and possibly for all 3 seasons of the tournament. It's absolutely insane to completely follow, especially compared to other tournaments like GSL and others. Then again, the more games, the better (possibly). The more games that are casted, the more likely an especially epic game will come out, which is especially good for casual audiences who thrive off of watching the occasional epic Clide vs Leenock VOD instead of every match of GSL live. That's why things like SC Center will be super clutch. You'll get to know the next day what matches were 'can't miss' or at least worth watching. There will be plenty of places to clue us in on what's important I think. Keeping up with results isn't the issue. It's having leagues like GSL losing a part of their subscribers.
The way I view it is this:
Picture the NASL like any other major sports league, as I believe it is what they are trying to emulate. I'll use the MLB as an example. On any given night during the season you can have anywhere up to 2-10 games going on in a single night.
Would you watch all of them? Probably not, you will only watch the ones that cater to you, whether it be your favorite team, or a rivalry matchup, or a new player making his debut, something along those lines.
I figure, since I'm a Terran player, I will really only watch the matches that cater to what I want to see, which is any sort of TvX matchup. I can skip over the PvZ and the PvP and ZvZ matches because I don't really want to see them, as I really have no interest in the matchup in particular. Although, if I do have a player that I like, for example, Tyler, iNcontroL, Idra, Dimaga or something then I'll catch the match regardless because I like the player. And Grubby vs. Moon? WC3 rivalry? Of course I'll watch that, but if it's a match I won't have much interest in, either due to the players, the matchup or a combo of the two, I can just skip it. Like any old MLB game that I have no interest in. I'll just look up the results, maybe catch the highlights and be done with it.
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I just think it's strange that jp chooses to pick the same question that's been asked to idra every single episode he's been on. It hasn't been long enough since the last discussion on the same topic for anything that new to come up, so it just seems like the questions should be screened better.
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related to another kind of balance:
As much as I enjoyed the show and Idra as a guest, whenever a pillar is missing it just isn't the same to me. Somehow all pillars present creates a uniquely entertaining combo.
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Is there any upload of this weeks episode yet? I just got home
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Yeah with all the questions that could have been asked tonight with this past weekend, NASL coming up, etc. to go with the Idra state of zerg balance question?
I mean, first off I think Idra who knows the game very well has every right to state his opinion. If my livelihood depended on the balance of a game I'd be champion my cause the same way. I'm not sure why more pro players don't do it. It is very similar to me like a coach trying to work the refs to get calls to go their way. Idra is a player trying to make a living with the game, he doesn't owe it to not state his opinion to anyone and it certainly doesn't mean the people that balance the game will even listen to him. Whether he is right or wrong, I see no issue in him always feeling that way.
Even if Zerg wins the next 10 tournaments I'd still want changes to help my race if it were me personally. To that same effect, why would anyone who doesn't play zerg ever agree with him? They don't want to see any changes that would help zerg, so it is only natural that anyone who doesn't play zerg isn't going to go, "Hey ya I agree, larva should spawn faster, hydras should only cost 75/25 and ultras should be stronger." They are going to say, "Zerg is fine." If you ever really want a good balance discussion get 3-4 of the highest ranked Random players in the world in the chat together, until then I take it all with a grain of salt.
But with that said, do we really have to ask Idra every single time he has a mic about zerg balance? We all know his answer. I can think of 10 questions right now far more interesting than that, and it just creates a slippery slope where you open a can of imbalance talk on TL etc. Just though the question didn't need to be asked, it is the most exhausting topic and nothing is more played out than zerg balance talk.
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On April 06 2011 14:50 1800STFU wrote:
Idra had alot of really good points....
I dont think the game is broken at all, but was really hoping you'd explore that further. I do think zerg is by far the hardest to play though. Some 30 apm champion toss can 4 gate you and you have to scramble to scout it and make every larva count to put together the proper defense.
I do think zerg is played a bit improperly though....too drone heavy and predictable alot of times. Zerg can reproduce an army pretty much out of nowhere and I think surprises like that need to be explored more. July does this quite a bit and that more aggressive style is something Zerg NEEDS to do more often to prevent 2base turtle deathballs.
Uhh.. 2 base turtle death balls are why zergs like Idra have been so reluctant to play very aggressively.
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On April 06 2011 14:51 Azarkon wrote:
I think it almost violates Day9's principles to discuss balance because he feels that players should just play, and let Blizzard sort things out. He just doesn't seem to feel that balance discussions are productive.
yeah, but there is no need to make idra sound like a pathetic biased whiner when he was bringing some good arguments.
I'd love to see tyler and idra having a good balance discussion, but I know they would end cussing each other LOL
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ca73y.jpg)
