On March 24 2011 05:40 Slow Motion wrote: Tyler is awesome. He put into words everything I've thought about MC. The SC2 guys who call him a god and worship him right now have no idea what a really great player is like. The thing that annoys me the most about MC's in-game BM is that he did a to July.
July was indeed a great player in BW. His wins were awe inspiring and beautiful in a way I've never seen from MC. MC has never accomplished what July has and I don't believe with his skills he ever will. It's like watching a cocky high school basketball player beat the current Magic Johnson 1 on 1 and then brag about it. Please, show some respect to someone who is truly greater than you are.
When Tyler says he wants to meet MC in a tournament and beat him, it made me feel like standing up and cheering. I love how much Tyler still respects the BW pros. He knows his roots and history, and would never disrespect someone like July. MC is currently Goliath with all his strength and power, but Tyler is definitely David because he stands for everything that is right and honorable in esports. Nony fighting in the TSL!!!
While i do not think MC is a god, he was a BW player as well. I was rooting for July at the Finals and do agree that Ming chul never really played a game that impressed me, beside his micro abilities.
But thinking that Tyler can beat MC is purely wishful thinking. I also fail at understanding why you're claiming Tyler to be this pure player, the essence of SC. The Golliath vs David analogy is quite strange to me. There's no Protoss in the world that can withstand the guy. SanZenith played brilliantly troughout the GSL and got crushed against MC. Beside if the latency is horrible, Tyler will get 2-0. The guy has the momentum. If Tyler would practice 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, for a few months, he'd stand a chance. But he won't do that, probably never will. It's too bad for him.
Yes MC was a BW player, and he was horrible too. The fact that he was in BW makes it worse that he was so cocky when playing July. July gave his dues to esports. He's legend status forever and MC is very very far from that. All I'm asking is for MC to show a little respect to a legend.
And for sure Tyler would be the underdog vs MC, but I just loved how he came out and said he wants to play MC, while other players bitch and moan and are so scared of Korean pros. He's got balls of steel and I'll believe in him just like I believed in him to beat Idra in TSL2 even though he was the clear underdog.
Got to agree with most of what you said right there. Though, MC is proving himself at SC2. It's true that you don't want players to be scared of the Koreans just because they are Koreans, but at the same time, there is respect to be given to guy that have 2 gsl title in the Silverware cabinet. Tyler has to beat Thorzain first,and it's not a given that he'll win. To me, it's a part of a fantasy where the foreigner vanquish the Koreans, as if it's us and them. Before talking of taking down the GSL champion, Tyler should focus on winning a title of his own. That would be a first step towards facing a giant like MC.
Tyler was 6th at MLG DC and 4th at MLG Dallas. That's enough proof for any reasonable guy.
On March 24 2011 11:23 AnotherEon wrote: i'd be surprised if incontrol ever got a webcam, seems like nowadays the only thing incontrol expends any effort doing is shitting over respected members of the community and robbing people for every nickel and dime he can. But thats selling out for ya
alright not I recognize I have actually wasted my time responding to you.
Did you literally just criticize me for not getting a fucking webcam?
In the past week I have traveled to Boston for PAX East. San Francisco for IGN. I work 8am-2pm at the office then I coach for 4-6 hours from home. At night I go to the gym or I train for SC2. I am also without a car because I moved to california to shit on- oh wait, no.. to start a fucking league.
On March 24 2011 11:20 AnotherEon wrote: seems fairly justified to call someone out for throwing all the toys out of the pram when someone disagrees with him
Dude seriously.. read the last 2 pages or so. Someone gets angry for our biased opinions and us mocking trolls... I responded... what the FUCK are you even talking about?
Another guy goes for the classic "not very professional from you" and I responded with an explanation of what I am actually doing (NEVER said I was going to be 100% boring an PC)
PLEASE make a better effort to not suck at teamliquid
Listen champ. I think you're overreacting here, he was just giving some fair criticism (something you have completely ignored since... forever basically). I think you could learn something from the constructive criticism presented to you, buddy.
On March 24 2011 02:42 randplaty wrote: Tyler's opinion on MC is based ALL on SCBW. The game is TOTALLY different. SC1 pros are enamored with macro, but SC2 is MUCH more based on timing attacks and one decisive battle with good positioning than it was in BW. Tyler's style is SO different from MC, but it's obviously that MC's style works much better in SC2.
It's not about the game as much as it's about how long people have been playing it. Ever since beta we have been saying that all in plays and strategies focusing on one strong timing will tend to dominate and win a lot. Those types of builds are really really strong and like 10 times easier to develop than the safer and more well rounded builds.
So so true. For anyone that doubts this, go check out this video:
It's Nada, teaching people to play BW TvZ circa 2002(?)
What does he tell people to do as a standard build in TvZ? Oh, I don't know, get EVERY SINGLE TECH STRUCTURE before expanding. How many times has anyone seen a build like this in pro BW in the last 3 years?
Since I've never come up with some dominating build order that revolutionized starcraft, I'm going to trust Tyler when he says that well-rounded builds take a long time to develop (and you should too). But if there is one thing that BW has shown us, it's that "safe", macro oriented play is the strongest in the long haul.
On March 24 2011 11:20 AnotherEon wrote: seems fairly justified to call someone out for throwing all the toys out of the pram when someone disagrees with him
Dude seriously.. read the last 2 pages or so. Someone gets angry for our biased opinions and us mocking trolls... I responded... what the FUCK are you even talking about?
Another guy goes for the classic "not very professional from you" and I responded with an explanation of what I am actually doing (NEVER said I was going to be 100% boring an PC)
PLEASE make a better effort to not suck at teamliquid
Listen champ. I think you're overreacting here, he was just giving some fair criticism (something you have completely ignored since... forever basically). I think you could learn something from the constructive criticism presented to you, buddy.
His "criticism" was that he is owed a voice on our show... you want to tell me how I ignored it by responding to him with the reasoning for why I disagree with him?
On March 24 2011 11:20 AnotherEon wrote: seems fairly justified to call someone out for throwing all the toys out of the pram when someone disagrees with him
Dude seriously.. read the last 2 pages or so. Someone gets angry for our biased opinions and us mocking trolls... I responded... what the FUCK are you even talking about?
Another guy goes for the classic "not very professional from you" and I responded with an explanation of what I am actually doing (NEVER said I was going to be 100% boring an PC)
PLEASE make a better effort to not suck at teamliquid
Listen champ. I think you're overreacting here, he was just giving some fair criticism (something you have completely ignored since... forever basically). I think you could learn something from the constructive criticism presented to you, buddy.
His "criticism" was that he is owed a voice on our show... you want to tell me how I ignored it by responding to him with the reasoning for why I disagree with him?
Bro its pretty obvious his criticism is that you could be a bit more objective in your views. It would appear you seem to be treating anyone that disagrees with your opinions like scum of the earth by mocking them, get over yourself bro. Is your ego that huge?
On March 24 2011 10:57 iNcontroL wrote: you are such a hater lol
I see your name in each of these threads I guess I will indulge you one time.
Where do I "wield the ban hammer" with our show? I was simply pointing out we state our opinion, then we mock the trolls whos opinions often range from "NONY IS FUCKING BAD" to "INCONTROL HASN'T EVEN WON ANYTHING" so in point of fact, I am responding to those guys and saying "get a show." Notice how we have a Q&A portion to our show? Obviously we don't just block everyone.
Now to the personal attack you made. Which, is completely standard since this is your 14th minute of fame. I am sorry you thought when I said I was going to clean up my act you interpreted that as 100% and would never joke/post on TL again. You must have been really hurt by my jovial attitude and lack of corporate behavior on SOTG. I can with respect tell you that you should probably stop being such a giant vagina. I am not going to sarcastically respond to people in NASL threads (or at least try to!) I am not going to make as many edgy jokes or rants... but I am most certainly going to call a spade a spade.
^_^ GET SOME
i have replied to quite a few of the recent comments about stuff you happen to be involved in, but im not trying to be "a hater". voicing concerns about a conflict of interest or having an opinion about you as a player i can easily back up with the results that caused me to have this opinion isnt hating, i even said in the ign thread that people are dumping too hard on the nasl for the wrong reasons.
i never said you banned anyone, i said that youre a mod here. i agreed that you should mock people on stotg, i even just said you should continue to be 'jovial' on stotg. it wasnt a personal attack, it was a question. i didnt call you a fucking ass, or a liar, just a plain question, nothing more nothing less.
you come across so ultra defensive about anyone criticizing you, for anything; and yet you made your name by being the guy who wasnt scared to dish out the dirt. so please, continue to call people like me a giant vagina, i dont think anyone wants it any other way but theres no need to throw a tantrum when you get sand in yours.
I can't really tell if incontrol is just feeding the trolls for teh lulz, or if he's actually trying to win some argument (and if the latter, doesn't he know that winning an argument on the internet is impossible? o.O someone should tell him).
On March 24 2011 11:28 barkles wrote: many times has anyone seen a build like this in pro BW in the last 3 years?
Since I've never come up with some dominating build order that revolutionized starcraft, I'm going to trust Tyler when he says that well-rounded builds take a long time to develop (and you should too). But if there is one thing that BW has shown us, it's that "safe", macro oriented play is the strongest in the long haul.
But that's exactly my point. This is NOT BW and therefore we cannot trust what "BW has shown us." It's not the same game at all. It's completely different, designed around a completely different engine. The smart pathing and better AI have COMPLETELY changed the game. All of the evidence we have (actual tournament results) suggests the same thing. The games look and feel completely different. The results are completely different.
I'm open to the possibility that in the end the game will look similar to BW, but for right now, because there is 0 evidence of that... I'm leaning towards the evidence. And the evidence says that it's a completely different game.
There's this dude I work with and I'm pretty sure he's miserable.
He manages to get upset about the smallest thing, things you'd never even think to get upset about. Unless you were really looking for things to be miserable about, as if you want to drag everyone else down with you into your misery.
On March 24 2011 11:28 barkles wrote: many times has anyone seen a build like this in pro BW in the last 3 years?
Since I've never come up with some dominating build order that revolutionized starcraft, I'm going to trust Tyler when he says that well-rounded builds take a long time to develop (and you should too). But if there is one thing that BW has shown us, it's that "safe", macro oriented play is the strongest in the long haul.
But that's exactly my point. This is NOT BW and therefore we cannot trust what "BW has shown us." It's not the same game at all. It's completely different, designed around a completely different engine. The smart pathing and better AI have COMPLETELY changed the game. All of the evidence we have (actual tournament results) suggests the same thing. The games look and feel completely different. The results are completely different.
I'm open to the possibility that in the end the game will look similar to BW, but for right now, because there is 0 evidence of that... I'm leaning towards the evidence. And the evidence says that it's a completely different game.
Hmm..well saying it's not the same game at all is a little silly, don't you think?
Let's break this down: Both Starcraft 1 and 2 are RTS games. They have similar units with similar abilities.
In the early days of starcraft 1, there was a high rate of 1-base and 2-base all-ins or (semi-all in) timing attacks. In the latter days of SC1, we see an extremely high rate of macro based play.
In the early days of SC2, we're seeing a relatively high rate of 1- and 2-base all-ins and timing attacks. We don't know what's going to happen in the latter days of SC2 yet, but isn't it reasonable to assume that the game will evolve in a similar manner?
Basically what I'm saying is that the only indicator that we have for the development of SC2 is the development of SC1. So far, they have followed the same trends, and based on the fact that they are both RTS with similar units and abilities (as I mentioned previously), I think this makes SC1 a pretty good indicator. But honestly, that doesn't even matter all that much because it's still the only indicator we have. The only rational expectation of future play that we can make based off of this one good indicator is that macro play will dominate in the future at some point. Trying to make an argument for anything else has zero evidence behind it.
Furthermore (and to be slightly hypocritical), the only people that are qualified to draw similarities or dis-similarities between SC1 and SC2 are people that have played both at a professional level. Tyler is such a person. Are you?
On March 24 2011 11:20 AnotherEon wrote: seems fairly justified to call someone out for throwing all the toys out of the pram when someone disagrees with him
Dude seriously.. read the last 2 pages or so. Someone gets angry for our biased opinions and us mocking trolls... I responded... what the FUCK are you even talking about?
Another guy goes for the classic "not very professional from you" and I responded with an explanation of what I am actually doing (NEVER said I was going to be 100% boring an PC)
PLEASE make a better effort to not suck at teamliquid
Listen champ. I think you're overreacting here, he was just giving some fair criticism (something you have completely ignored since... forever basically). I think you could learn something from the constructive criticism presented to you, buddy.
His "criticism" was that he is owed a voice on our show... you want to tell me how I ignored it by responding to him with the reasoning for why I disagree with him?
Bro its pretty obvious his criticism is that you could be a bit more objective in your views. It would appear you seem to be treating anyone that disagrees with your opinions like scum of the earth by mocking them, get over yourself bro. Is your ego that huge?
It's an OPINION show where he is supposed to state his OPINION. OPINIONS are not right or wrong.
2) Guy in the thread calls it stupid and biased, then states his own opinion.
3) Guys on the show call that opinion stupid.
4) Guy in the thread gets butthurt because his opinion is called stupid, and precedes to again state an opinion while calling the opinion of the guys on the show stupid.
On March 24 2011 11:35 barkles wrote: I can't really tell if incontrol is just feeding the trolls for teh lulz, or if he's actually trying to win some argument (and if the latter, doesn't he know that winning an argument on the internet is impossible? o.O someone should tell him).
I don't know if you've watched his stream, but incontrol's genuine interest in people who would rather just run their mouths and then fade into the background of the internet borders on the insane, he gives people so much more attention than they deserve.
On March 24 2011 08:01 Scrandom wrote: What Tyler was saying about how he hates MC's playstyle and he was comparing him to BW players like Bisu and Stork and how they clearly dominated their opponents, I don't think it's fair to make that comparison because SC2 is so different that the way MC played is how you win in starcraft 2 its not the same as BW.
Also I'm pretty disgusted that they are allowed to give their biased opinions on everything but the viewers who leave their counter biased opinions are ridiculed on air sarcastically. It really makes no sense, kind of a "high-horse" feeling to the show.
WHAT THE FUCK?
Did you call us horses?
TAKE IT BACKKKKKKKKKKKKK
I was being mature, thought it would produce discussion
Nah. You were being a shit stirrer We are "allowed" to give our "biased opinions" because (DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNN) it's OUR fucking show? We were also obligated to sarcastically ridicule the inane trolls because (DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNNN) it's funny.
If you watch our show and get butthurt, like actually upset, you are watching / listening to the wrong show.
That's the thing though, I'm not getting upset. I'm giving my honest opinion and I don't understand why viewers get ridiculed because of it. Yes you're allowed to give your biased opinions because it is your show, nothing wrong with that. But other people are allowed to have a voice too even if they aren't as entitled to talk about ti as people like the members of sotg
This is so hilarious . Tyler specificly explained his opinion and said he would probably have to explain it again and again because some people won't get it. Looks like he was right wasn't he? Tell me honestly that you did not watch the finals and thought "weeell.. that's it i guess?" Those games were not fun creative , they were, for the most part, perfectly executed all-ins that would have left MC without any tech at all should his builds have failed. It was a gamble. What tlyer was getting at was that these builds were not safe, and since MC is the better player, he should probably not rely on risky builds but just play better than his opponent and win with control over the game at all times, like a bisu or stork in their primes. Go watch the game between MC and MVP in gsl 4 i think. Thats what mcs gambles look like when they fail. So that answers the first part of your "discussion topic" , I hope Now the reason you got rediculed is that tyler explained all that (only much better than I can) after he made that statement because he knew people like you would start these "discussions". And you still do not get it. Its pretty funny actually :D
I'm protoss user, and actually what I saw in those games amazed me to no end.
Let me explain a few things:
- I dont care for safer builds. Although Im a diamond player and therefor noob compared to the pros on SotG, even I know how to execute colossus and HT builds against players of my skill level. And frankly colossus bore me to death - watching and using them is becoming a pain for me more and more. BUT since gate units are considered weaker then MM or roach/hydra, every "safe toss" is using colossus, HTs or both (transitioning from one to the other).
- What MC's games showed me was, that with good control, game sense and timings one can rip apart hydras although they are supposed to "hard counter" gate units. For that alone I'm a huge MC fan, and those games were very fun to watch. There was only one not so fun aspect, and that was the ridicules ease with which MC destroyed July - and I'm saying this although I'm a huge July fan.
- No matter what Nony, Socke and InControl say, MC remains the far better and more accomplished player. And criticising someone who is much better then you looks to me more like envy than anything else. It's like if I was criticising Bill Gates for his way of making money, and saying "there is a better way" although yet not discovered, and so on. Ridicules...
On March 24 2011 08:01 Scrandom wrote: What Tyler was saying about how he hates MC's playstyle and he was comparing him to BW players like Bisu and Stork and how they clearly dominated their opponents, I don't think it's fair to make that comparison because SC2 is so different that the way MC played is how you win in starcraft 2 its not the same as BW.
Also I'm pretty disgusted that they are allowed to give their biased opinions on everything but the viewers who leave their counter biased opinions are ridiculed on air sarcastically. It really makes no sense, kind of a "high-horse" feeling to the show.
WHAT THE FUCK?
Did you call us horses?
TAKE IT BACKKKKKKKKKKKKK
I was being mature, thought it would produce discussion
Nah. You were being a shit stirrer We are "allowed" to give our "biased opinions" because (DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNN) it's OUR fucking show? We were also obligated to sarcastically ridicule the inane trolls because (DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNNN) it's funny.
If you watch our show and get butthurt, like actually upset, you are watching / listening to the wrong show.
That's the thing though, I'm not getting upset. I'm giving my honest opinion and I don't understand why viewers get ridiculed because of it. Yes you're allowed to give your biased opinions because it is your show, nothing wrong with that. But other people are allowed to have a voice too even if they aren't as entitled to talk about ti as people like the members of sotg
This is so hilarious . Tyler specificly explained his opinion and said he would probably have to explain it again and again because some people won't get it. Looks like he was right wasn't he? Tell me honestly that you did not watch the finals and thought "weeell.. that's it i guess?" Those games were not fun creative , they were, for the most part, perfectly executed all-ins that would have left MC without any tech at all should his builds have failed. It was a gamble. What tlyer was getting at was that these builds were not safe, and since MC is the better player, he should probably not rely on risky builds but just play better than his opponent and win with control over the game at all times, like a bisu or stork in their primes. Go watch the game between MC and MVP in gsl 4 i think. Thats what mcs gambles look like when they fail. So that answers the first part of your "discussion topic" , I hope Now the reason you got rediculed is that tyler explained all that (only much better than I can) after he made that statement because he knew people like you would start these "discussions". And you still do not get it. Its pretty funny actually :D
I'm protoss user, and actually what I saw in those games amazed me to no end.
Let me explain a few things:
- I dont care for safer builds. Although Im a diamond player and therefor noob compared to the pros on SotG, even I know how to execute colossus and HT builds against players of my skill level. And frankly colossus bore me to death - watching and using them is becoming a pain for me more and more. BUT since gate units are considered weaker then MM or roach/hydra, every "safe toss" is using colossus, HTs or both (transitioning from one to the other).
- What MC's games showed me was, that with good control, game sense and timings one can rip apart hydras although they are supposed to "hard counter" gate units. For that alone I'm a huge MC fan, and those games were very fun to watch. There was only one not so fun aspect, and that was the ridicules ease with which MC destroyed July - and I'm saying this although I'm a huge July fan.
- No matter what Nony, Socke and InControl say, MC remains the far better and more accomplished player. And criticising someone who is much better then you looks to me more like envy than anything else. It's like if I was criticising Bill Gates for his way of making money, and saying "there is a better way" although yet not discovered, and so on. Ridicules...
1. Tyler (who I would certainly term a "safe toss") just completely spanked a very strong Terran player in strelok thanks in part to a build that completely relies on gateway units until the midgame. Only then do higher tech units come into play
2. Multiple high level players have spoken to the fact that July played like complete shit that series and we can't draw any conclusions about balance or the players skill levels except that July played very poorly.
3. This comes back to the point that incontrol and the rest of the staff make tirelessly: if you can only criticize someone who is worse than you, there is no show.
On March 24 2011 08:01 Scrandom wrote: What Tyler was saying about how he hates MC's playstyle and he was comparing him to BW players like Bisu and Stork and how they clearly dominated their opponents, I don't think it's fair to make that comparison because SC2 is so different that the way MC played is how you win in starcraft 2 its not the same as BW.
Also I'm pretty disgusted that they are allowed to give their biased opinions on everything but the viewers who leave their counter biased opinions are ridiculed on air sarcastically. It really makes no sense, kind of a "high-horse" feeling to the show.
WHAT THE FUCK?
Did you call us horses?
TAKE IT BACKKKKKKKKKKKKK
I was being mature, thought it would produce discussion
Nah. You were being a shit stirrer We are "allowed" to give our "biased opinions" because (DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNN) it's OUR fucking show? We were also obligated to sarcastically ridicule the inane trolls because (DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNNN) it's funny.
If you watch our show and get butthurt, like actually upset, you are watching / listening to the wrong show.
That's the thing though, I'm not getting upset. I'm giving my honest opinion and I don't understand why viewers get ridiculed because of it. Yes you're allowed to give your biased opinions because it is your show, nothing wrong with that. But other people are allowed to have a voice too even if they aren't as entitled to talk about ti as people like the members of sotg
This is so hilarious . Tyler specificly explained his opinion and said he would probably have to explain it again and again because some people won't get it. Looks like he was right wasn't he? Tell me honestly that you did not watch the finals and thought "weeell.. that's it i guess?" Those games were not fun creative , they were, for the most part, perfectly executed all-ins that would have left MC without any tech at all should his builds have failed. It was a gamble. What tlyer was getting at was that these builds were not safe, and since MC is the better player, he should probably not rely on risky builds but just play better than his opponent and win with control over the game at all times, like a bisu or stork in their primes. Go watch the game between MC and MVP in gsl 4 i think. Thats what mcs gambles look like when they fail. So that answers the first part of your "discussion topic" , I hope Now the reason you got rediculed is that tyler explained all that (only much better than I can) after he made that statement because he knew people like you would start these "discussions". And you still do not get it. Its pretty funny actually :D
I'm protoss user, and actually what I saw in those games amazed me to no end.
Let me explain a few things:
- I dont care for safer builds. Although Im a diamond player and therefor noob compared to the pros on SotG, even I know how to execute colossus and HT builds against players of my skill level. And frankly colossus bore me to death - watching and using them is becoming a pain for me more and more. BUT since gate units are considered weaker then MM or roach/hydra, every "safe toss" is using colossus, HTs or both (transitioning from one to the other).
- What MC's games showed me was, that with good control, game sense and timings one can rip apart hydras although they are supposed to "hard counter" gate units. For that alone I'm a huge MC fan, and those games were very fun to watch. There was only one not so fun aspect, and that was the ridicules ease with which MC destroyed July - and I'm saying this although I'm a huge July fan.
- No matter what Nony, Socke and InControl say, MC remains the far better and more accomplished player. And criticising someone who is much better then you looks to me more like envy than anything else. It's like if I was criticising Bill Gates for his way of making money, and saying "there is a better way" although yet not discovered, and so on. Ridicules...
1. Tyler (who I would certainly term a "safe toss") just completely spanked a very strong Terran player in strelok thanks in part to a build that completely relies on gateway units until the midgame. Only then do higher tech units come into play
2. Multiple high level players have spoken to the fact that July played like complete shit that series and we can't draw any conclusions about balance or the players skill levels except that July played very poorly.
3. This comes back to the point that incontrol and the rest of the staff make tirelessly: if you can only criticize someone who is worse than you, there is no show.
1) Strelok can hardly be compared to any of the code S players.
2) Its not easy to realize whether a player played poorly or whether he was just outplayed in such a way, that his play seemed poor in comparison.
3) Its cool, however, when making a "case" it would be better to gather some proof first. From what I've seen, MC has no weakness, besides his rather aggressive attitude. His micro is insanely good, his timings put all other toss to shame, and even his macro is excellent. Just watch the game between MC and July in the group stages. He plowed through July with the same ease, just like in the finals. Only that that time, it wasnt a timing attack with gate units only, but instead a super solid macro oriented play with colossus and blink stalkers. At present time there is 0 evidence, that MC has a real weakness.
EPT
