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I just wanted to thank you guys for the episode it has been excellent.
This show is like the only place where i feel like everyone knows what he is talking about and that he is honest about it.Thank you for giving us such a great insight.
PS. please ignore all the "MC IS THE BEST WTFLOLOLOL YOU JUST CRITISIZE BECAUSE HE IS BETTER THAN YOU" people and continue to stay like you are .
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On March 24 2011 15:49 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 13:24 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:On March 24 2011 11:25 KevinIX wrote:On March 24 2011 11:10 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:On March 24 2011 09:32 Slow Motion wrote:On March 24 2011 08:34 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:On March 24 2011 05:40 Slow Motion wrote:
Tyler is awesome. He put into words everything I've thought about MC. The SC2 guys who call him a god and worship him right now have no idea what a really great player is like. The thing that annoys me the most about MC's in-game BM is that he did a to July.
July was indeed a great player in BW. His wins were awe inspiring and beautiful in a way I've never seen from MC. MC has never accomplished what July has and I don't believe with his skills he ever will. It's like watching a cocky high school basketball player beat the current Magic Johnson 1 on 1 and then brag about it. Please, show some respect to someone who is truly greater than you are.
When Tyler says he wants to meet MC in a tournament and beat him, it made me feel like standing up and cheering. I love how much Tyler still respects the BW pros. He knows his roots and history, and would never disrespect someone like July. MC is currently Goliath with all his strength and power, but Tyler is definitely David because he stands for everything that is right and honorable in esports. Nony fighting in the TSL!!! While i do not think MC is a god, he was a BW player as well. I was rooting for July at the Finals and do agree that Ming chul never really played a game that impressed me, beside his micro abilities. But thinking that Tyler can beat MC is purely wishful thinking. I also fail at understanding why you're claiming Tyler to be this pure player, the essence of SC. The Golliath vs David analogy is quite strange to me. There's no Protoss in the world that can withstand the guy. SanZenith played brilliantly troughout the GSL and got crushed against MC. Beside if the latency is horrible, Tyler will get 2-0. The guy has the momentum. If Tyler would practice 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, for a few months, he'd stand a chance. But he won't do that, probably never will. It's too bad for him. Yes MC was a BW player, and he was horrible too. The fact that he was in BW makes it worse that he was so cocky when playing July. July gave his dues to esports. He's legend status forever and MC is very very far from that. All I'm asking is for MC to show a little respect to a legend. And for sure Tyler would be the underdog vs MC, but I just loved how he came out and said he wants to play MC, while other players bitch and moan and are so scared of Korean pros. He's got balls of steel and I'll believe in him just like I believed in him to beat Idra in TSL2 even though he was the clear underdog. Got to agree with most of what you said right there. Though, MC is proving himself at SC2. It's true that you don't want players to be scared of the Koreans just because they are Koreans, but at the same time, there is respect to be given to guy that have 2 gsl title in the Silverware cabinet. Tyler has to beat Thorzain first,and it's not a given that he'll win. To me, it's a part of a fantasy where the foreigner vanquish the Koreans, as if it's us and them. Before talking of taking down the GSL champion, Tyler should focus on winning a title of his own. That would be a first step towards facing a giant like MC. Tyler was 6th at MLG DC and 4th at MLG Dallas. That's enough proof for any reasonable guy. I said titles. I'm not from the being second is okay school. I'm not from the everyone has a prize for playing school. Ace as a beefier curriculum than tyler. Tyler's a very good player, I,m not even trying to say he's not. But if you want to be in the same bracket as MC, you got to be better than being a very good player. You got to have something special, and that something special makes you win titles. That's not happening for him so far. You need the extra work to be a champion, you need to run the extra mile. Cristiano Ronaldo, Thierry Henry, Dennis Bergkamp, Kobe Bryant, they all have the same thing in common: They put the work. Train the extra hour. The diet to make the difference. MC is doing just that. Hopefully, Tyler is heading towards that line. you're an imbecile
Hahahah i got insulted by IdrA, this is priceless. I got tears in my eye hahaha damn.
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On March 24 2011 13:28 barkles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 13:24 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:On March 24 2011 11:25 KevinIX wrote:On March 24 2011 11:10 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:On March 24 2011 09:32 Slow Motion wrote:On March 24 2011 08:34 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:On March 24 2011 05:40 Slow Motion wrote:
Tyler is awesome. He put into words everything I've thought about MC. The SC2 guys who call him a god and worship him right now have no idea what a really great player is like. The thing that annoys me the most about MC's in-game BM is that he did a to July.
July was indeed a great player in BW. His wins were awe inspiring and beautiful in a way I've never seen from MC. MC has never accomplished what July has and I don't believe with his skills he ever will. It's like watching a cocky high school basketball player beat the current Magic Johnson 1 on 1 and then brag about it. Please, show some respect to someone who is truly greater than you are.
When Tyler says he wants to meet MC in a tournament and beat him, it made me feel like standing up and cheering. I love how much Tyler still respects the BW pros. He knows his roots and history, and would never disrespect someone like July. MC is currently Goliath with all his strength and power, but Tyler is definitely David because he stands for everything that is right and honorable in esports. Nony fighting in the TSL!!! While i do not think MC is a god, he was a BW player as well. I was rooting for July at the Finals and do agree that Ming chul never really played a game that impressed me, beside his micro abilities. But thinking that Tyler can beat MC is purely wishful thinking. I also fail at understanding why you're claiming Tyler to be this pure player, the essence of SC. The Golliath vs David analogy is quite strange to me. There's no Protoss in the world that can withstand the guy. SanZenith played brilliantly troughout the GSL and got crushed against MC. Beside if the latency is horrible, Tyler will get 2-0. The guy has the momentum. If Tyler would practice 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, for a few months, he'd stand a chance. But he won't do that, probably never will. It's too bad for him. Yes MC was a BW player, and he was horrible too. The fact that he was in BW makes it worse that he was so cocky when playing July. July gave his dues to esports. He's legend status forever and MC is very very far from that. All I'm asking is for MC to show a little respect to a legend. And for sure Tyler would be the underdog vs MC, but I just loved how he came out and said he wants to play MC, while other players bitch and moan and are so scared of Korean pros. He's got balls of steel and I'll believe in him just like I believed in him to beat Idra in TSL2 even though he was the clear underdog. Got to agree with most of what you said right there. Though, MC is proving himself at SC2. It's true that you don't want players to be scared of the Koreans just because they are Koreans, but at the same time, there is respect to be given to guy that have 2 gsl title in the Silverware cabinet. Tyler has to beat Thorzain first,and it's not a given that he'll win. To me, it's a part of a fantasy where the foreigner vanquish the Koreans, as if it's us and them. Before talking of taking down the GSL champion, Tyler should focus on winning a title of his own. That would be a first step towards facing a giant like MC. Tyler was 6th at MLG DC and 4th at MLG Dallas. That's enough proof for any reasonable guy. I said titles. I'm not from the being second is okay school. I'm not from the everyone has a prize for playing school. Ace as a beefier curriculum than tyler. Tyler's a very good player, I,m not even trying to say he's not. But if you want to be in the same bracket as MC, you got to be better than being a very good player. You got to have something special, and that something special makes you win titles. That's not happening for him so far. You need the extra work to be a champion, you need to run the extra mile. Cristiano Ronaldo, Thierry Henry, Dennis Bergkamp, Kobe Bryant, they all have the same thing in common: They put the work. Train the extra hour. The diet to make the difference. MC is doing just that. Hopefully, Tyler is heading towards that line. Soooo....if you were going to have a bunch of people talk about football, you wouldn't let Dan Marino criticize the play of Trent Dilfer because Marino never won a super bowl and Dilfer did? But which one is a Hall of Famer I wonder... EDIT: Just though of an even better example: in ranking Broodwar accomplishments, you'd place forGG above Yellow?
Ehh i got to say, that the ForGG example is quite on point. Hmm....i got nothing to say against that! Well played Sir!
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On March 24 2011 09:22 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 07:38 Talin wrote:On March 24 2011 06:30 randplaty wrote:
I'll give you that there's a distinct possibility that you're right... but perhaps SC2 is a completely different game than BW. Is it possible that there may not be safer builds? The games are based on the same fundamental logic, so it's fairly certain that they're not completely different games. If you're asking if it's possible that there's a 1 or 2 base timing attack that will end up being a player's best option in the long run and that it becomes so powerful that nothing can rival it in terms of success rate over a really long period of time (a year or so) and every player of that race ends up doing it, then I suppose there's a remote possibility that could happen with SC2. But that would also mean that the game is essentially broken, because nobody interested in SC2 wants the game to be revolving around a futuristic variant of a 4/6 Gate in 2014 - nobody would play it, and nobody would watch it because it would make no sense. We're not talking about some sort of a "playstyle" or "vision" that MC happens to have, it's just an abuse of the fact that people haven't yet learned the game and solved the timings puzzle to the smallest detail. The SC2 we've been watching so far is really crude and rough around the edges because of it, and for me and I suppose for most people that have been following BW scene it's really hard to be genuinely impressed by the games that current SC2 programers show. Obviously one can't hate on MC for doing it to win tournaments and cash, but it does go over the edge when you hear him say how his game is "perfect", whereas it's really really far from that. I would say the scenario you posed of a 4/6 gate variant to be the center of certain matchups is already a reality. I believe Blizzard with continue to patch and therefore timing attacks will disappear but new ones will appear. I can definitely see SC2 disappearing if Blizzard isn't able to patch away a lot of these abusive timing pushes. But a couple caveats: 1) The game right now is based on timing attacks. 2) I don't believe anyone will be able to come up with "safe" builds without serious patching from blizzard 3) Blizzard's patching philosophy is to create statistical matchup balance rather than to reduce the strength of abusive timing attacks. It's very possible that Blizzard never does anything change SC2 with regards to abusive timings and SC2 has a much shorter life than BW. That said, the game right now is centered around these timing attacks and MC has a far better understanding of these timings than any other player and that's why he's dominating. A lot of people are assuming that players will eventually discover safe builds. As the game currently stands, I don't have any evidence that those safe builds even exist. Why not admire MC for his understanding of the game and how many different variations of timing attacks that he has and how he can utilize them in different matchups rather than disparage his play based on a completely different game (BW).
I don't get why you insist on seeing this barrier between SC2 and BW that isn't there at all. What exactly do you base the opinion that they're two completely different games on, other than how SC2 plays like barely a year since release and while being balance patched every few months? There's nothing in SC2's core design that would make it significantly different from BW or that would make it revolve around timing attacks (in the sense of how it currently works).
As for the patching and stuff, I don't think Blizzard even needs to intervene in majority of cases, nor does everything players have problems with right now need to be "patched out" (I don't even like that approach). Players will come up with solutions like they always have, it just takes a little bit of time. Even if no patch ever comes out after 1.3, the game will look and play radically different in 3 or 4 years.
You can't say "well it works like that NOW" and use that as an argument that nothing will ever change. BW and WC3's history are proof enough that the games evolve on their own over a longer period of time, and that it takes a while for strategies to solidify. Both those games have already been through pretty much the exact same stages in their history and I can't see why SC2 would somehow be an exception.
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Nice SotProtos guys, had some good laughs. Altho anna and geoff need a webcam :p. Hope Nony faces MC and shows those korean's whos bos! Would like to see that :D
Keep this shit going and i look forward to hear Sheans laughter again in uber delay!
Oh btw, what on earth happens to the pheonix pvp?
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On March 24 2011 15:55 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 15:49 IdrA wrote:On March 24 2011 13:24 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:On March 24 2011 11:25 KevinIX wrote:On March 24 2011 11:10 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:On March 24 2011 09:32 Slow Motion wrote:On March 24 2011 08:34 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:On March 24 2011 05:40 Slow Motion wrote:
Tyler is awesome. He put into words everything I've thought about MC. The SC2 guys who call him a god and worship him right now have no idea what a really great player is like. The thing that annoys me the most about MC's in-game BM is that he did a to July.
July was indeed a great player in BW. His wins were awe inspiring and beautiful in a way I've never seen from MC. MC has never accomplished what July has and I don't believe with his skills he ever will. It's like watching a cocky high school basketball player beat the current Magic Johnson 1 on 1 and then brag about it. Please, show some respect to someone who is truly greater than you are.
When Tyler says he wants to meet MC in a tournament and beat him, it made me feel like standing up and cheering. I love how much Tyler still respects the BW pros. He knows his roots and history, and would never disrespect someone like July. MC is currently Goliath with all his strength and power, but Tyler is definitely David because he stands for everything that is right and honorable in esports. Nony fighting in the TSL!!! While i do not think MC is a god, he was a BW player as well. I was rooting for July at the Finals and do agree that Ming chul never really played a game that impressed me, beside his micro abilities. But thinking that Tyler can beat MC is purely wishful thinking. I also fail at understanding why you're claiming Tyler to be this pure player, the essence of SC. The Golliath vs David analogy is quite strange to me. There's no Protoss in the world that can withstand the guy. SanZenith played brilliantly troughout the GSL and got crushed against MC. Beside if the latency is horrible, Tyler will get 2-0. The guy has the momentum. If Tyler would practice 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, for a few months, he'd stand a chance. But he won't do that, probably never will. It's too bad for him. Yes MC was a BW player, and he was horrible too. The fact that he was in BW makes it worse that he was so cocky when playing July. July gave his dues to esports. He's legend status forever and MC is very very far from that. All I'm asking is for MC to show a little respect to a legend. And for sure Tyler would be the underdog vs MC, but I just loved how he came out and said he wants to play MC, while other players bitch and moan and are so scared of Korean pros. He's got balls of steel and I'll believe in him just like I believed in him to beat Idra in TSL2 even though he was the clear underdog. Got to agree with most of what you said right there. Though, MC is proving himself at SC2. It's true that you don't want players to be scared of the Koreans just because they are Koreans, but at the same time, there is respect to be given to guy that have 2 gsl title in the Silverware cabinet. Tyler has to beat Thorzain first,and it's not a given that he'll win. To me, it's a part of a fantasy where the foreigner vanquish the Koreans, as if it's us and them. Before talking of taking down the GSL champion, Tyler should focus on winning a title of his own. That would be a first step towards facing a giant like MC. Tyler was 6th at MLG DC and 4th at MLG Dallas. That's enough proof for any reasonable guy. I said titles. I'm not from the being second is okay school. I'm not from the everyone has a prize for playing school. Ace as a beefier curriculum than tyler. Tyler's a very good player, I,m not even trying to say he's not. But if you want to be in the same bracket as MC, you got to be better than being a very good player. You got to have something special, and that something special makes you win titles. That's not happening for him so far. You need the extra work to be a champion, you need to run the extra mile. Cristiano Ronaldo, Thierry Henry, Dennis Bergkamp, Kobe Bryant, they all have the same thing in common: They put the work. Train the extra hour. The diet to make the difference. MC is doing just that. Hopefully, Tyler is heading towards that line. you're an imbecile Hahahah i got insulted by IdrA, this is priceless. I got tears in my eye hahaha damn.
You deserved it though. Imbecile.
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Congratz to the scoop in the preshow JP! 
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Kndap.jpg)
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On March 24 2011 15:55 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 15:49 IdrA wrote:On March 24 2011 13:24 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:On March 24 2011 11:25 KevinIX wrote:On March 24 2011 11:10 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:On March 24 2011 09:32 Slow Motion wrote:On March 24 2011 08:34 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:On March 24 2011 05:40 Slow Motion wrote:
Tyler is awesome. He put into words everything I've thought about MC. The SC2 guys who call him a god and worship him right now have no idea what a really great player is like. The thing that annoys me the most about MC's in-game BM is that he did a to July.
July was indeed a great player in BW. His wins were awe inspiring and beautiful in a way I've never seen from MC. MC has never accomplished what July has and I don't believe with his skills he ever will. It's like watching a cocky high school basketball player beat the current Magic Johnson 1 on 1 and then brag about it. Please, show some respect to someone who is truly greater than you are.
When Tyler says he wants to meet MC in a tournament and beat him, it made me feel like standing up and cheering. I love how much Tyler still respects the BW pros. He knows his roots and history, and would never disrespect someone like July. MC is currently Goliath with all his strength and power, but Tyler is definitely David because he stands for everything that is right and honorable in esports. Nony fighting in the TSL!!! While i do not think MC is a god, he was a BW player as well. I was rooting for July at the Finals and do agree that Ming chul never really played a game that impressed me, beside his micro abilities. But thinking that Tyler can beat MC is purely wishful thinking. I also fail at understanding why you're claiming Tyler to be this pure player, the essence of SC. The Golliath vs David analogy is quite strange to me. There's no Protoss in the world that can withstand the guy. SanZenith played brilliantly troughout the GSL and got crushed against MC. Beside if the latency is horrible, Tyler will get 2-0. The guy has the momentum. If Tyler would practice 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, for a few months, he'd stand a chance. But he won't do that, probably never will. It's too bad for him. Yes MC was a BW player, and he was horrible too. The fact that he was in BW makes it worse that he was so cocky when playing July. July gave his dues to esports. He's legend status forever and MC is very very far from that. All I'm asking is for MC to show a little respect to a legend. And for sure Tyler would be the underdog vs MC, but I just loved how he came out and said he wants to play MC, while other players bitch and moan and are so scared of Korean pros. He's got balls of steel and I'll believe in him just like I believed in him to beat Idra in TSL2 even though he was the clear underdog. Got to agree with most of what you said right there. Though, MC is proving himself at SC2. It's true that you don't want players to be scared of the Koreans just because they are Koreans, but at the same time, there is respect to be given to guy that have 2 gsl title in the Silverware cabinet. Tyler has to beat Thorzain first,and it's not a given that he'll win. To me, it's a part of a fantasy where the foreigner vanquish the Koreans, as if it's us and them. Before talking of taking down the GSL champion, Tyler should focus on winning a title of his own. That would be a first step towards facing a giant like MC. Tyler was 6th at MLG DC and 4th at MLG Dallas. That's enough proof for any reasonable guy. I said titles. I'm not from the being second is okay school. I'm not from the everyone has a prize for playing school. Ace as a beefier curriculum than tyler. Tyler's a very good player, I,m not even trying to say he's not. But if you want to be in the same bracket as MC, you got to be better than being a very good player. You got to have something special, and that something special makes you win titles. That's not happening for him so far. You need the extra work to be a champion, you need to run the extra mile. Cristiano Ronaldo, Thierry Henry, Dennis Bergkamp, Kobe Bryant, they all have the same thing in common: They put the work. Train the extra hour. The diet to make the difference. MC is doing just that. Hopefully, Tyler is heading towards that line. you're an imbecile Hahahah i got insulted by IdrA, this is priceless. I got tears in my eye hahaha damn.
Damn you sure showed that IdrA guy... oh wait. Yea, you're still an imbecile.
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ahhhhh I'm banned on the IRC channel and don't know why JP do something
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On March 24 2011 13:21 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 13:10 acrimoneyius wrote:On March 24 2011 13:03 Louuster wrote:
MC is like Slayers_Boxer of BW. Take a race that wasn't very good (how many toss won in gsl2?), play it ultra aggressively and dominate for a while before the macro monsters who have figured out your timings emerge from the new generation of pros.
Since when was protoss not a good race?...protoss losing in one tournament is probably indicative of the player skill, not the race. Until people figured some stuff out for the race (the first few GSL's), Protoss was consistently the worst performing race out of the bunch. It took players a bit of practice and learning (months of it) before Protoss was realized as the powerhouse that it is.
Yeah, and what you're forgetting, is that it took the new maps, where terrans cant allin all the time for toss to shine.
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On March 24 2011 15:55 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 15:49 IdrA wrote:On March 24 2011 13:24 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:On March 24 2011 11:25 KevinIX wrote:On March 24 2011 11:10 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:On March 24 2011 09:32 Slow Motion wrote:On March 24 2011 08:34 HowSoOnIsNow wrote:On March 24 2011 05:40 Slow Motion wrote:
Tyler is awesome. He put into words everything I've thought about MC. The SC2 guys who call him a god and worship him right now have no idea what a really great player is like. The thing that annoys me the most about MC's in-game BM is that he did a to July.
July was indeed a great player in BW. His wins were awe inspiring and beautiful in a way I've never seen from MC. MC has never accomplished what July has and I don't believe with his skills he ever will. It's like watching a cocky high school basketball player beat the current Magic Johnson 1 on 1 and then brag about it. Please, show some respect to someone who is truly greater than you are.
When Tyler says he wants to meet MC in a tournament and beat him, it made me feel like standing up and cheering. I love how much Tyler still respects the BW pros. He knows his roots and history, and would never disrespect someone like July. MC is currently Goliath with all his strength and power, but Tyler is definitely David because he stands for everything that is right and honorable in esports. Nony fighting in the TSL!!! While i do not think MC is a god, he was a BW player as well. I was rooting for July at the Finals and do agree that Ming chul never really played a game that impressed me, beside his micro abilities. But thinking that Tyler can beat MC is purely wishful thinking. I also fail at understanding why you're claiming Tyler to be this pure player, the essence of SC. The Golliath vs David analogy is quite strange to me. There's no Protoss in the world that can withstand the guy. SanZenith played brilliantly troughout the GSL and got crushed against MC. Beside if the latency is horrible, Tyler will get 2-0. The guy has the momentum. If Tyler would practice 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, for a few months, he'd stand a chance. But he won't do that, probably never will. It's too bad for him. Yes MC was a BW player, and he was horrible too. The fact that he was in BW makes it worse that he was so cocky when playing July. July gave his dues to esports. He's legend status forever and MC is very very far from that. All I'm asking is for MC to show a little respect to a legend. And for sure Tyler would be the underdog vs MC, but I just loved how he came out and said he wants to play MC, while other players bitch and moan and are so scared of Korean pros. He's got balls of steel and I'll believe in him just like I believed in him to beat Idra in TSL2 even though he was the clear underdog. Got to agree with most of what you said right there. Though, MC is proving himself at SC2. It's true that you don't want players to be scared of the Koreans just because they are Koreans, but at the same time, there is respect to be given to guy that have 2 gsl title in the Silverware cabinet. Tyler has to beat Thorzain first,and it's not a given that he'll win. To me, it's a part of a fantasy where the foreigner vanquish the Koreans, as if it's us and them. Before talking of taking down the GSL champion, Tyler should focus on winning a title of his own. That would be a first step towards facing a giant like MC. Tyler was 6th at MLG DC and 4th at MLG Dallas. That's enough proof for any reasonable guy. I said titles. I'm not from the being second is okay school. I'm not from the everyone has a prize for playing school. Ace as a beefier curriculum than tyler. Tyler's a very good player, I,m not even trying to say he's not. But if you want to be in the same bracket as MC, you got to be better than being a very good player. You got to have something special, and that something special makes you win titles. That's not happening for him so far. You need the extra work to be a champion, you need to run the extra mile. Cristiano Ronaldo, Thierry Henry, Dennis Bergkamp, Kobe Bryant, they all have the same thing in common: They put the work. Train the extra hour. The diet to make the difference. MC is doing just that. Hopefully, Tyler is heading towards that line. you're an imbecile Hahahah i got insulted by IdrA, this is priceless. I got tears in my eye hahaha damn.
Uhm, well, it's because you're ignorant.
Tyler won TSL #2, he has nothing to "prove" to anyone.
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On March 24 2011 21:16 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 13:21 Whitewing wrote:On March 24 2011 13:10 acrimoneyius wrote:On March 24 2011 13:03 Louuster wrote:
MC is like Slayers_Boxer of BW. Take a race that wasn't very good (how many toss won in gsl2?), play it ultra aggressively and dominate for a while before the macro monsters who have figured out your timings emerge from the new generation of pros.
Since when was protoss not a good race?...protoss losing in one tournament is probably indicative of the player skill, not the race. Until people figured some stuff out for the race (the first few GSL's), Protoss was consistently the worst performing race out of the bunch. It took players a bit of practice and learning (months of it) before Protoss was realized as the powerhouse that it is. Yeah, and what you're forgetting, is that it took the new maps, where terrans cant allin all the time for toss to shine.
I wasn't aware that it was protoss who had any particular problem with terran all ins.
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On March 24 2011 16:58 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 09:22 randplaty wrote:On March 24 2011 07:38 Talin wrote:On March 24 2011 06:30 randplaty wrote:
I'll give you that there's a distinct possibility that you're right... but perhaps SC2 is a completely different game than BW. Is it possible that there may not be safer builds? The games are based on the same fundamental logic, so it's fairly certain that they're not completely different games. If you're asking if it's possible that there's a 1 or 2 base timing attack that will end up being a player's best option in the long run and that it becomes so powerful that nothing can rival it in terms of success rate over a really long period of time (a year or so) and every player of that race ends up doing it, then I suppose there's a remote possibility that could happen with SC2. But that would also mean that the game is essentially broken, because nobody interested in SC2 wants the game to be revolving around a futuristic variant of a 4/6 Gate in 2014 - nobody would play it, and nobody would watch it because it would make no sense. We're not talking about some sort of a "playstyle" or "vision" that MC happens to have, it's just an abuse of the fact that people haven't yet learned the game and solved the timings puzzle to the smallest detail. The SC2 we've been watching so far is really crude and rough around the edges because of it, and for me and I suppose for most people that have been following BW scene it's really hard to be genuinely impressed by the games that current SC2 programers show. Obviously one can't hate on MC for doing it to win tournaments and cash, but it does go over the edge when you hear him say how his game is "perfect", whereas it's really really far from that. I would say the scenario you posed of a 4/6 gate variant to be the center of certain matchups is already a reality. I believe Blizzard with continue to patch and therefore timing attacks will disappear but new ones will appear. I can definitely see SC2 disappearing if Blizzard isn't able to patch away a lot of these abusive timing pushes. But a couple caveats: 1) The game right now is based on timing attacks. 2) I don't believe anyone will be able to come up with "safe" builds without serious patching from blizzard 3) Blizzard's patching philosophy is to create statistical matchup balance rather than to reduce the strength of abusive timing attacks. It's very possible that Blizzard never does anything change SC2 with regards to abusive timings and SC2 has a much shorter life than BW. That said, the game right now is centered around these timing attacks and MC has a far better understanding of these timings than any other player and that's why he's dominating. A lot of people are assuming that players will eventually discover safe builds. As the game currently stands, I don't have any evidence that those safe builds even exist. Why not admire MC for his understanding of the game and how many different variations of timing attacks that he has and how he can utilize them in different matchups rather than disparage his play based on a completely different game (BW). I don't get why you insist on seeing this barrier between SC2 and BW that isn't there at all. What exactly do you base the opinion that they're two completely different games on, other than how SC2 plays like barely a year since release and while being balance patched every few months? There's nothing in SC2's core design that would make it significantly different from BW or that would make it revolve around timing attacks (in the sense of how it currently works). As for the patching and stuff, I don't think Blizzard even needs to intervene in majority of cases, nor does everything players have problems with right now need to be "patched out" (I don't even like that approach). Players will come up with solutions like they always have, it just takes a little bit of time. Even if no patch ever comes out after 1.3, the game will look and play radically different in 3 or 4 years. You can't say "well it works like that NOW" and use that as an argument that nothing will ever change. BW and WC3's history are proof enough that the games evolve on their own over a longer period of time, and that it takes a while for strategies to solidify. Both those games have already been through pretty much the exact same stages in their history and I can't see why SC2 would somehow be an exception.
Mechanics like chrono boost, larva inject and reactors all favour timing and cheese based play. There is no way of having as many units in BW, as you can have in SC2 early in the game. Thats why these tactics will stay viable in SC2 as long as Blizz doesnt redesign the game heavily. It coul happen with one of the expansions, but I doubt it.
BW = mostly standard play, with an occasional cheese/timing
SC2 = at best 50:50
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On March 24 2011 21:20 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 21:16 IVN wrote:On March 24 2011 13:21 Whitewing wrote:On March 24 2011 13:10 acrimoneyius wrote:On March 24 2011 13:03 Louuster wrote:
MC is like Slayers_Boxer of BW. Take a race that wasn't very good (how many toss won in gsl2?), play it ultra aggressively and dominate for a while before the macro monsters who have figured out your timings emerge from the new generation of pros.
Since when was protoss not a good race?...protoss losing in one tournament is probably indicative of the player skill, not the race. Until people figured some stuff out for the race (the first few GSL's), Protoss was consistently the worst performing race out of the bunch. It took players a bit of practice and learning (months of it) before Protoss was realized as the powerhouse that it is. Yeah, and what you're forgetting, is that it took the new maps, where terrans cant allin all the time for toss to shine. I wasn't aware that it was protoss who had any particular problem with terran all ins.
Then watch GSL1 and 2. MC was practically the only toss, that could handle it.
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missed the brother mack while uploading
great intro by brother mack
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On March 24 2011 17:08 Skrelt wrote:
Nice SotProtos guys, had some good laughs. Altho anna and geoff need a webcam :p. Hope Nony faces MC and shows those korean's whos bos! Would like to see that :D
Keep this shit going and i look forward to hear Sheans laughter again in uber delay!
Oh btw, what on earth happens to the pheonix pvp?
Oh yeah, what did ever happen to that? I was genuinely hoping it would come up considering they decided to discuss PvP...
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On March 24 2011 16:58 Talin wrote:
I don't get why you insist on seeing this barrier between SC2 and BW that isn't there at all. What exactly do you base the opinion that they're two completely different games on, other than how SC2 plays like barely a year since release and while being balance patched every few months? There's nothing in SC2's core design that would make it significantly different from BW or that would make it revolve around timing attacks (in the sense of how it currently works).
As for the patching and stuff, I don't think Blizzard even needs to intervene in majority of cases, nor does everything players have problems with right now need to be "patched out" (I don't even like that approach). Players will come up with solutions like they always have, it just takes a little bit of time. Even if no patch ever comes out after 1.3, the game will look and play radically different in 3 or 4 years.
You can't say "well it works like that NOW" and use that as an argument that nothing will ever change. BW and WC3's history are proof enough that the games evolve on their own over a longer period of time, and that it takes a while for strategies to solidify. Both those games have already been through pretty much the exact same stages in their history and I can't see why SC2 would somehow be an exception.
There are a lot of fundamental differences between BW and SC2. The macro mechanics are just one of the big differences. Damage bonus modifiers are a huge difference multiplying small advantages into large advantages. Unit pathing is another huge difference. Because the individual units in SC2 are smarter and are able to get into the battle to deal damage rather than wandering around in the back, the battles are much more decisive.
Surely you've noticed that most of the games you play are decided by one battle in SC2. In BW there was much more back and forth even in the early days of that game.
Because battles are much more decisive, small advantages, such as having 1 more stalker can swing an entire battle in a player's favor. Therefore if you can derive a build order around having a few small advantages, a timing attack appears and you can parlay those small advantages into huge advantages by attacking. In BW, the battles were less decisive, so small advantages would just be small advantages.
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On March 24 2011 11:53 barkles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 11:40 randplaty wrote:On March 24 2011 11:28 barkles wrote:
many times has anyone seen a build like this in pro BW in the last 3 years?
Since I've never come up with some dominating build order that revolutionized starcraft, I'm going to trust Tyler when he says that well-rounded builds take a long time to develop (and you should too). But if there is one thing that BW has shown us, it's that "safe", macro oriented play is the strongest in the long haul. But that's exactly my point. This is NOT BW and therefore we cannot trust what "BW has shown us." It's not the same game at all. It's completely different, designed around a completely different engine. The smart pathing and better AI have COMPLETELY changed the game. All of the evidence we have (actual tournament results) suggests the same thing. The games look and feel completely different. The results are completely different. I'm open to the possibility that in the end the game will look similar to BW, but for right now, because there is 0 evidence of that... I'm leaning towards the evidence. And the evidence says that it's a completely different game. Hmm..well saying it's not the same game at all is a little silly, don't you think? Let's break this down: Both Starcraft 1 and 2 are RTS games. They have similar units with similar abilities. In the early days of starcraft 1, there was a high rate of 1-base and 2-base all-ins or (semi-all in) timing attacks. In the latter days of SC1, we see an extremely high rate of macro based play. In the early days of SC2, we're seeing a relatively high rate of 1- and 2-base all-ins and timing attacks. We don't know what's going to happen in the latter days of SC2 yet, but isn't it reasonable to assume that the game will evolve in a similar manner? Basically what I'm saying is that the only indicator that we have for the development of SC2 is the development of SC1. So far, they have followed the same trends, and based on the fact that they are both RTS with similar units and abilities (as I mentioned previously), I think this makes SC1 a pretty good indicator. But honestly, that doesn't even matter all that much because it's still the only indicator we have. The only rational expectation of future play that we can make based off of this one good indicator is that macro play will dominate in the future at some point. Trying to make an argument for anything else has zero evidence behind it. Furthermore (and to be slightly hypocritical), the only people that are qualified to draw similarities or dis-similarities between SC1 and SC2 are people that have played both at a professional level. Tyler is such a person. Are you?
The only indicator we have for the development of SC2 is SC1? Why would you say that? Yes they're both RTS games but there have been many popular RTS games including Warcraft and Warcraft 2 and Warcraft 3. All three were completely different games from each other and were completely different games from SC1 and SC2.
In Starcraft1's first couple years of development there was no pro gaming scene to speak of. The game took much longer to develop and refine because people took it much less seriously. I doubt SC2 will take the exact same development path that SC1 took.
Only progamers are allowed to draw similarities or differences between the two games? This is a game design issue which involves game theory, programming, business and marketing. I actually think progammers are less qualified than some people to comment on game design. Besides that, this is the classic fallacy of argument from authority (ie, you're wrong because you're not an authority).
Again, I'm not saying that SC2 won't develop into a macro game the way that SCBW did. All I'm saying is that we have no definitive evidence that it will. Therefore saying that MC's style is not a good long term style just has no evidence to back it up. For all we know, SC2 will be dominated by timing attacks in the long run and MC's style will be the style of the future.
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On March 25 2011 01:44 randplaty wrote:
Only progamers are allowed to draw similarities or differences between the two games? This is a game design issue which involves game theory, programming, business and marketing. I actually think progammers are less qualified than some people to comment on game design. Besides that, this is the classic fallacy of argument from authority (ie, you're wrong because you're not an authority).
You misunderstand that. Preferring a fisherman to tell you about the fishing conditions in a certain location is not a fallacy of argument for authority, however, preferring the opinion of a TV-star about the fishing conditions, simply because he's a star, would be.
In other words, pro gamers are on occasion more valuable to listen to when it comes to pro gaming than other people, because they have more experience.
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EPT
