On June 30 2012 05:35 ilikeredheads wrote: Can someone explain who this Avilo guy is, or his past with EG? Why does Incontrol and idra hate him? Why bring him on the show if they dont like him in the first place?
Just watched the episode. I didn't think it was right to cut Avilo off like that. It just looks bad. Even if he was arguing for the sake of arguing, there was no need for that. If he is just a big troll, is it necessary to bring him on just to hang up on him? To troll the troll? I'm not defending him but I'd think JP and Incontrol are better than that.
Hate is such a strong word dude.
Maybe I didn't phrase it correctly. I don't know the history between Avilo and EG. The only thing I didn't like was hanging up on him. abruptly. Other than that, i dont have any issues.
I don't think its EG related, just that Idra and Incontrol have an opinion of him from what he says in the forums. That's all this is.
On June 30 2012 05:18 Mellowman wrote: Incontrol is the heart of the problem.
people like you with 20 posts making drama for no reason are the heart of the problem
Just saying what I honestly feel, feels bad to have my post number used as a factor to judge me with
Then make constructive posts instead.
Here is the PM he sent me:
I'm going to commit underaged drinking for the first time the day you get fired.
IDK Why I am sending this to you though, I can just see you, in your oversized chair, in your oversized house, for which you do not pay, grinning to yourself as you think about all the hardworking folk who hate you out there and just want to see their contribution to esports be used wisely which is instead spent on sustaining you.
All avilo does is whine about balance is his wheezy voice. I've played him and everytime he bitches about something even erroneously calling my builds because he just doesnt want to admit he scouted wrongly. (I know this because I always go to see what streamers say after I win, find it interesting). They make fun of him because he is known to be a complainer in the community what else does he expect when he goes onto a show where 4 people routinely poke fun at him. He also immediately starts off by worrying about people poking fun at him which takes away from why they brought him on the show. Idra's an asshole and as adamant that zerg is fine as anyone else who probably feels like they should be doing better. I don't really understand what people expect.
On June 30 2012 05:18 Jepsyn wrote: Just wow. Grow Up. Some kid clearly came on an started attacking InControl and IdrA
No, he was invited on by the host, and he didn't attack anyone. He was disingenuously asked to discuss TvZ balance (the real purpose was just to see how quickly Idra would start on him - they admitted as much), mocked throughout by Incontrol and JP, and attacked by Idra without provocation.
He then pointed out the first attack but refused to respond in kind, and kept trying to discuss what he had been told to come on and talk about. Idra then attacked him again and said he refuses to talk to him any further. He was cut off and removed from the call mid-sentence, after which QXC explained his point, and everyone had a big old laugh at how everything went according to plan.
If you actually saw/heard that segment and interpreted another version of events where Avilo provoked or attacked anyone, then you have a serious problem with reality.
Yep this much is true. Though I don't see anything wrong with that. It was funny and entertaining. Idra and QXC already covered everything TvZ wise, so we didn't really need anything from Avilo other than to be entertained.
In the end, myself and other Terrans got what we wanted from this though, which was for a knowledgeable Terran to give his perspective and discuss the TvZ issues/match-up/state of the game right now post queen-buff.
More like a clueless terran giving a very bias depiction of the "problem", which was explained in such general terms that nothing of importance could be extracted from the discussion. ie. "queen range lets zerg get free 80 drones"
On June 30 2012 05:35 ilikeredheads wrote: Can someone explain who this Avilo guy is, or his past with EG? Why does Incontrol and idra hate him? Why bring him on the show if they dont like him in the first place?
Just watched the episode. I didn't think it was right to cut Avilo off like that. It just looks bad. Even if he was arguing for the sake of arguing, there was no need for that. If he is just a big troll, is it necessary to bring him on just to hang up on him? To troll the troll? I'm not defending him but I'd think JP and Incontrol are better than that.
Hate is such a strong word dude.
Maybe I didn't phrase it correctly. I don't know the history between Avilo and EG. The only thing I didn't like was hanging up on him. abruptly. Other than that, i dont have any issues.
I don't think its EG related, just that Idra and Incontrol have an opinion of him from what he says in the forums. That's all this is.
It's really just because of his balance complaints on the forums? Lol why do they care so much about that?
On June 30 2012 04:28 Kotschmonaut wrote: Oh wow. I listened the MP3 as i usually do and after Avilo got dropped ( I first thought he disconnected because it made no sense to kick some1 out of the show he was invited to ), my thought process : Why the hell doesnt the host, JP, tell Idra not to insult another guest. Then i read he kicked the guy who stayed civil in the conversation ; im like : WTF ?
Then i watch the Video to see if i missed some thing in their facial expressions which may explain it a bit more. Cant find anything. All i see is JP with a dumb smile on his face after he randomly kicked some1 trying to make valid arguments, not keeping the guy who randomly throws insults around in check.
Its a pity Idra hasnt matured a single fucking bit last 2 years, but its a disgrace that the host of the show, JP, not only let this happen but even indirectly defends Idra who obviously was the aggressor in this discussion. By the way, running around queens and praying u can slip into the main is not a valid idea for a build, dear idra.
If you bring someone to a show, treat them equal to your other, more established guests, JP. All that trolling / editing of picture you do in your show seems childish to me but its your style and i sometimes enjoy it, but seriously that was just fucking disgusting, no question of style, no question of pre-history of avilo-Idra, just pathetic. Was truly surprised as i Always enjoyed SOTG.
If you wanted to kick anyone to keep it civil, you should have kicked Idra.
Well spoken sir! I completely agree with this.
What is the purpose of this show anyways? Every time someone complains about something on the show you respond with something like:
"This is not meant to be a professional show" "We're just a bunch of guys goofing around" "State of the game is just the name of the show"
But all of you guys on the show are professional gamers representing your teams and the organizations that buys your services. If you are wearing your EG-shirt on the show, how am I supposed to interpret that?
You advertise this show as "The #1 Starcraft 2 podcast" ... "Each week the four hosts and sometimes guests recap what they've been up to in SC2, discuss the latest news and announcements, break down patch notes, and break open build orders and strategies."
To me it sounds like you have the ambition to cover very broad aspects of the SC2 scene and that the name of the show is chosen because you actually want to analyze and discuss the state that the game is in.
I think most of your viewers would agree on this description of the show. That is why you stir up so much shit when you show blatant bias and ignorance like you did in last weeks episode. Then you acted like you didn't understand the concerns people had by saying that the people on the show was very qualified to talk about the terran perspective. Well guess what? You weren't. And moreover, you indirectly admitted this by bringing qxc on in the previous show.
It is very easy. People have expectations on your show. If you can't get a terran to discuss the current state of TvZ then don't discuss it at all.
It is a mystery to me why you let idrA go full idrA-mode in the discussions with qxc and avilo. I think the discussion with qxc could have been better if you had some other high-level zerg than idrA on the show. The guy has completely disqualified himself from having any credibility in such a discussion. Simply put, he is not mature enough to nuance himself. Another example of this is his statements about MKP being "bad". MKP is not a bad player, sure he might be a bit predictable or look stupid when his micro-intensive strategies fail for some reason, but "bad" he is not. I guess you bring idrA on to increase the viewer count which is fair enough, but you should recognize that it might cause problems with the quality of the show if he is given too much freedom. Props for qxc though for attempting to help avilo out a bit though.
Mad shoutouts to qxc btw. The guy is 100% pure class. Ironically he did a better job treating your guest with respect than any of the regular hosts with a lot more of talk show hosting experience did.
If you could be more serious on the show you would have something that I would look forward to watch each week. Now I pretty much only watch it if you have some interesting guest on like qxc, or to follow some silly drama like this. Drama probably attracts viewers, but in the long run I think you are better off if you try to avoid some of it.
On June 30 2012 05:35 ilikeredheads wrote: Can someone explain who this Avilo guy is, or his past with EG? Why does Incontrol and idra hate him? Why bring him on the show if they dont like him in the first place?
Just watched the episode. I didn't think it was right to cut Avilo off like that. It just looks bad. Even if he was arguing for the sake of arguing, there was no need for that. If he is just a big troll, is it necessary to bring him on just to hang up on him? To troll the troll? I'm not defending him but I'd think JP and Incontrol are better than that.
To make this a quick post: Avilo has been around the NA scene for awhile, and made his claim to fame on complaining about balance. I like the guy's play (nukes fuck yeah), but this is what he's most recognized for. There have been posts linked in this very topic from 2 years ago where Avilo is complaining about late game TvZ, along with Idra's comments about not knowing what he's talking about, etc. etc. He has had some results, but none on the level of Idra or any other well-known foreigner on this site for the most part.
It really didn't seem like Incontrol hates him, he just doesn't take him seriously in anyway whatsoever because of this trend of balance complaining. They make jokes about him for the most part now because TvZ is the biggest thing that the SC2 community is bitching about right now, and he is the prime target for sentiments on why TvZ QQ is stupid in some peoples' eyes. Avilo has talked about there being a bit of a rift between himself and Incontrol and there being a bit of awkwardness at tourney's in the past. He has poked fun at him quite a bit, but at the same time like Incontrol said, he has gone out of his way to plug Avilo's stream in his blogs. That's pretty cool, and a standup way of maybe trying to smooth things over between himself and Avilo (I'm not saying this was the case in Geoff's eyes, but it's a possibility).
What I really wish I would have seen was a more controlled statement from Avilo. It was obvious from the way he was speaking that he was a little nervous, and he probably knew he was in for a shitstorm since he hadn't heard the beginning half of the show where a lot of things were talked about. He probably could have asked Geoff about the whole joking thing in a better way later on instead of leading off his appearance with going straight to that (although I can understand some frustration about continuously being talked about without a mouthpiece as large as SotG to retort with), and I really hoped we would have seen some more discussion about nukes, because obviously that's what Avilo is known for in his play. QXC/Idra touched on the effectiveness of nukes momentarily, but the best qualified person to discuss what nukes can do and can't do for you probably would have been Avilo and sadly that opportunity was lost.
Not in fact a quick post, but whatever. It would have been really interesting to see a less heated discussion between Idra and Avilo. Would it have been a good idea for JP maybe to hold off on letting Avilo on until later on in the show when he could give him some notes or maybe suggest topics specifically for him to discuss (such as nukes) that wouldn't be discussed and rehashed for Idra to sit through again?
On June 30 2012 05:18 Mellowman wrote: Incontrol is the heart of the problem.
people like you with 20 posts making drama for no reason are the heart of the problem
Just saying what I honestly feel, feels bad to have my post number used as a factor to judge me with
Then make constructive posts instead.
Here is the PM he sent me:
I'm going to commit underaged drinking for the first time the day you get fired.
IDK Why I am sending this to you though, I can just see you, in your oversized chair, in your oversized house, for which you do not pay, grinning to yourself as you think about all the hardworking folk who hate you out there and just want to see their contribution to esports be used wisely which is instead spent on sustaining you.
Oh it's going to be a gooooood day.
the underage part makes a lot of sense now.
I like how he says "commit underaged drinking" as if its some kind of ultra taboo sin.
On June 30 2012 05:50 Positronic wrote: To make this a quick post: Avilo has been around the NA scene for awhile, and made his claim to fame on complaining about balance.
So he's basically the Terran equivalent of Idra, except with slightly worse results and no time spent being the Great White Hope in Korea?
On June 30 2012 05:18 Mellowman wrote: Incontrol is the heart of the problem.
people like you with 20 posts making drama for no reason are the heart of the problem
Just saying what I honestly feel, feels bad to have my post number used as a factor to judge me with
Then make constructive posts instead.
Here is the PM he sent me:
I'm going to commit underaged drinking for the first time the day you get fired.
IDK Why I am sending this to you though, I can just see you, in your oversized chair, in your oversized house, for which you do not pay, grinning to yourself as you think about all the hardworking folk who hate you out there and just want to see their contribution to esports be used wisely which is instead spent on sustaining you.
Oh it's going to be a gooooood day.
the underage part makes a lot of sense now.
I like how he says "commit underaged drinking" as if its some kind of ultra taboo sin.
Just imagine for a second what an intoxicated Avilo would sound like, the lisp would only get worse >.<
On June 30 2012 05:18 Mellowman wrote: Incontrol is the heart of the problem.
people like you with 20 posts making drama for no reason are the heart of the problem
Just saying what I honestly feel, feels bad to have my post number used as a factor to judge me with
Then make constructive posts instead.
Here is the PM he sent me:
I'm going to commit underaged drinking for the first time the day you get fired.
IDK Why I am sending this to you though, I can just see you, in your oversized chair, in your oversized house, for which you do not pay, grinning to yourself as you think about all the hardworking folk who hate you out there and just want to see their contribution to esports be used wisely which is instead spent on sustaining you.
Oh it's going to be a gooooood day.
the underage part makes a lot of sense now.
I like how he says "commit underaged drinking" as if its some kind of ultra taboo sin.
Just imagine for a second what an intoxicated Avilo would sound like, the lisp would only get worse >.<
I don't think avilo had anything unique to contribute to the discussion. It's his mistake for wanting to come on the show without any good reason to come on the show. He either thought what he had to say was unique and compelling OR he felt his authority was great enough that there's value behind him in particular putting his weight behind common arguments and observations. It wasn't so bad for the show before the latest show, when he originally wanted to come on, but following the qxc/idra discussion was very bad.
SC2 strategy discussions, and balance discussions in general, often happen without anything original being said. There are few units and viable builds in the game. There are few viable styles and broad strategical "moves" which are all defined by different distributions of investments (between army, economy, tech, upgrades, static defense, etc). These broad things are few but their applications are so vast that discussions quickly go beyond anyone's knowledge.
What players typically try to do with their investment distributions is find out the "sweet spot" investment for that moment in that particular game. For example, IdrA claims that there is a sweet spot investment in army that a terran player can do after going 3 CC. This sweet spot puts significant pressure on the zerg. Upping that investment, say 50%, from 2000 resources to 3000 resources, might yield very little benefit, and also makes it impossible to precede it with 3 CC, which makes it a dead-end build.
When a patch comes that significantly changes a matchup, what is usually happening is most of the known sweet spots are no longer so sweet. That's IdrA saying that the old builds don't work. What are the new sweet spots? Well, no one knows for sure or else the discussion wouldn't be happening. So the discussion can't really have a definitive end. You can only have a player from each perspective point vaguely in a direction and agree that some hope exists.
The queen and overlord changes are almost exclusively affecting sweet spots. That is, when IdrA said Stephano using queens offensively was an anomaly, that's the point he's making. This patch didn't change a unit that was core to some army composition. Such a change would change the scope of the discussion because timings would no longer be the main issue (ghost snipe change).
Idra and qxc fleshed out the issues so that anyone who didn't know what the hell was going on with TvZ atm would know. And then they did their best to use all the specific knowledge of the matchup they have, both the outdated pre-patch knowledge and the post-patch fallout, to figure out which alternatives look most promising.
Someone saying that all other options amount to nothing and that the game is fundamentally broken is not helpful. As experienced players, we know for a fact that not all options have been properly attempted. What we know is that one option that terrans were comfortable with and zergs were uncomfortable with is now no longer possible. A player from the race that just got nerfed does not have something interesting to say if whatever they're saying is negative. It's just not possible to have comprehensively proven that there's no hope. The nerfed race is interesting when they say they've figured out a new sweet spot that is looking good.
As soon as Avilo took a negative view for terran, he was setting himself up to be either completely uninteresting and unoriginal or completely ridiculous. QXC knew this fact for himself and poked fun at the situation SOTG was trying to put him in by asking something like "oh so you want me to assume it's imbalanced and defend that?" Avilo asked to be put into that position and proceeded headlong with an errant tact. Most players with more knowledge and experience would refuse to go into the same situation. They certainly wouldn't ask for it.
----
As for the way JP, Geoff and Greg behaved, there's really no defending it either. There's certainly plenty of explaining it. It was nowhere near as bad as some people paint it. Context and history also soften the picture for people who saw only this one incident. But it still wasn't the kind of behavior I'd want to see on a show and not the kind of show that I want to be a part of.
When JP and Geoff said it was happening, I just took a back seat because there have been many things that they do that turn out to be awesome and popular which I wouldn't have done. Now some of those things have gone so bad that I think we'll have to be more careful. I didn't know how this would go. There was a chance it could have been awesome and I don't like preventing things that might turn out awesome just because some sensitive people might be outraged over cringing for two minutes one time.
But it's also our (unpaid) job to bring you awesome, all the damn time. So what bothers me isn't so much that Avilo had a bad time (I'm not responsible for him) but rather that SOTG presented a shitty segment. It's a difficulty of a live show. To quote Geoff, this was a learning experience. We've got to get better. Next time we'll be better. (Unless we suck next time too, and then that'll also be a learning experience, and we'll be better the time after that, trust me.)
I don't think avilo had anything unique to contribute to the discussion. It's his mistake for wanting to come on the show without any good reason to come on the show. He either thought what he had to say was unique and compelling OR he felt his authority was great enough that there's value behind him in particular putting his weight behind common arguments and observations. It wasn't so bad for the show before the latest show, when he originally wanted to come on, but following the qxc/idra discussion was very bad.
SC2 strategy discussions, and balance discussions in general, often happen without anything original being said. There are few units and viable builds in the game. There are few viable styles and broad strategical "moves" which are all defined by different distributions of investments (between army, economy, tech, upgrades, static defense, etc). These broad things are few but their applications are so vast that discussions quickly go beyond anyone's knowledge.
What players typically try to do with their investment distributions is find out the "sweet spot" investment for that moment in that particular game. For example, IdrA claims that there is a sweet spot investment in army that a terran player can do after going 3 CC. This sweet spot puts significant pressure on the zerg. Upping that investment, say 50%, from 2000 resources to 3000 resources, might yield very little benefit, and also makes it impossible to precede it with 3 CC, which makes it a dead-end build.
When a patch comes that significantly changes a matchup, what is usually happening is most of the known sweet spots are no longer so sweet. That's IdrA saying that the old builds don't work. What are the new sweet spots? Well, no one knows for sure or else the discussion wouldn't be happening. So the discussion can't really have a definitive end. You can only have a player from each perspective point vaguely in a direction and agree that some hope exists.
The queen and overlord changes are almost exclusively affecting sweet spots. That is, when IdrA said Stephano using queens offensively was an anomaly, that's the point he's making. This patch didn't change a unit that was core to some army composition. Such a change would change the scope of the discussion because timings would no longer be the main issue (ghost snipe change).
Idra and qxc fleshed out the issues so that anyone who didn't know what the hell was going on with TvZ atm would know. And then they did their best to use all the specific knowledge of the matchup they have, both the outdated pre-patch knowledge and the post-patch fallout, to figure out which alternatives look most promising.
Someone saying that all other options amount to nothing and that the game is fundamentally broken is not helpful. As experienced players, we know for a fact that not all options have been properly attempted. What we know is that one option that terrans were comfortable with and zergs were uncomfortable with is now no longer possible. A player from the race that just got nerfed does not have something interesting to say if whatever they're saying is negative. It's just not possible to have comprehensively proven that there's no hope. The nerfed race is interesting when they say they've figured out a new sweet spot that is looking good.
As soon as Avilo took a negative view for terran, he was setting himself up to be either completely uninteresting and unoriginal or completely ridiculous. QXC knew this fact for himself and poked fun at the situation SOTG was trying to put him in by asking something like "oh so you want me to assume it's imbalanced and defend that?" Avilo asked to be put into that position and proceeded headlong with an errant tact. Most players with more knowledge and experience would refuse to go into the same situation. They certainly wouldn't ask for it.
----
As for the way JP, Geoff and Greg behaved, there's really no defending it either. There's certainly plenty of explaining it. It was nowhere near as bad as some people paint it. Context and history also soften the picture for people who saw only this one incident. But it still wasn't the kind of behavior I'd want to see on a show and not the kind of show that I want to be a part of.
When JP and Geoff said it was happening, I just took a back seat because there have been many things that they do that turn out to be awesome and popular which I wouldn't have done. Now some of those things have gone so bad that I think we'll have to be more careful. I didn't know how this would go. There was a chance it could have been awesome and I don't like preventing things that might turn out awesome just because some sensitive people might be outraged over cringing for two minutes one time.
But it's also our (unpaid) job to bring you awesome, all the damn time. So what bothers me isn't so much that Avilo had a bad time (I'm not responsible for him) but rather that SOTG presented a shitty segment. It's a difficulty of a live show. To quote Geoff, this was a learning experience. We've got to get better. Next time we'll be better. (Unless we suck next time too, and then that'll also be a learning experience, and we'll be better the time after that, trust me.)
On June 30 2012 03:01 R3DT1D3 wrote: Watching the vod again this is pretty much how it breaks down from an objective perspective:
1) Avilo comes on and immediately tries to call Geoff out and Geoff tries to keep him on track with the TvZ debate. Avilo was trying to use this platform to try and get back at Geoff which is already starting off the wrong way. Whether you agree with Avilo or not, this is not the time to try and argue with Geoff.
2) Avilo and Idra start putting their arguments forth and it's going fairly smoothly.
3) During Idra's first response, Avilo interrupts him without letting him finish and then acts all snide about Luckyfool's blog and how they haven't read it.
4) More arguments are traded more or less with QXC stepping in to clarify a few points.
5) Idra makes the argument about Terran needing to be greedy enough that they have the economy to put down make the tech switch to keep up with zerg and again Avilo clearly interrupts. Avilo gets told to STFU and then he tries to jump back in. This is the 2nd time he's interrupted and he keeps pushing after Idra is clearly being irritated at his interruptions.
6) Avilo tries to twist Idra's words and say that Idra agrees with him when it's obvious that he does not. Idra gets tired of this, calls him out for being bad, and then finishes his point.
7) Avilo jumps back in pretending he's offended that Idra took "cheap shots" at him (while he was intentionally misconstruing Idra's arguments and has interrupted him multiple times) and tries to propose that his argument is what Idra said.
8) Idra tells him that isn't what he said and says he's done discussing this with Avilo.
9) JP cuts Avilo off as Avilo tries to reiterate what he thinks Idra said.
If Avilo wanted to be respected and heard out, he went about it in the wrong way. He knows how Idra is and he was riling him up on purpose. JP cut him off when he realized this wasn't going to go anywhere. That's all there is to this.
LOL please refer to the dictionary definition of objective, bud. That post was about as opinionated against avilo as it could possibly have been. Using the term "calling put" to describe idra's personal attack on avilo just takes the cake. You just interpreted a personal insult as an observation of truth LOL. I trust you're intelligent enough to know why that isn't objective.
You need to look some things up in the dictionary if you think "calling out" is a statement of fact. Calling out is just the same thing as drawing attention to something which is exactly what Idra did. Whether you think he is bad or not that's what happened. I merely chronicled what happened during the time the time Avilo was on skype. Those things objectively happened and I didn't leave any major events out. If you think I'm so biased against Avilo, you haven't rewatched the VOD. The only part I started to editorialize was his feigned offense at the "cheap shots." That part was mostly just common sense.
its not hard to spot the bias parts in your posts dude, even if you think you're being objective
If it's not hard then point them out. Anyone can just SAY someone else is biased but actually telling me where you disagree that it's objective (other than the part I already pointed out) means something.
I AM BEING SUBJECTIVE RIGHT NOW------> You're too busy defending someone who interrupted his opponent multiple times, purposefully misconstrued the argument, and was generally hostile while Idra remained calm up until the last minute or so to actual do this.
I bolded a couple. Note that you completely missed alot of details where idra and incontrol also interrupted him. In fact, both sides interrupt each other quite a couple times
if you want to be objective on giving out contexts, better to leave out most personal interpretation.
1) The very first thing he says after talking about the webcam and picture is asking why Geoff picks on him so much. That's not why he was brought on and he's being confrontational as his first impression. Objectively, he brought that up and Geoff ignored him and steered him towards the TvZ.
3) I would like to see you act this way before a judge and then argue you weren't being snide. First google result for snide: "Derogatory or mocking in an indirect way: 'snide remarks.'" He brings up a TL user's blog like it's required reading material and then gets an attitude that they haven't read it. Watch again and tell me this isn't mocking them for not reading the blog:
5) Around 1:31:40, Idra is in the middle of a point and Avilo jumps in with "And that's the..." while Idra is in the middle of a sentence and when Idra tells him to STFU he goes "HEY HEY HEY..." trying to get his point in. I would told him to STFU up too (I don't even curse usually) if someone was yelling over me and wouldn't let me finish like that. Perhaps you only have experience arguing online but in an actual debate you don't just jump in and talk over someone going "HEY HEY HEY I DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAID AND I WON'T LET YOU FINISH OR ARTICULATE THE REST!!!!!"
6) If you honestly think that Idra was agreeing with Avilo and that Idra saying "That's not what I said at all" was him lying then I have no idea what alternate universe you live in. Objectively, Avilo was stating his interpretation of Idra's points as fact which was not the case.
If Avilo had just started on subject, refrained from interrupting Idra in the middle of an argument, and avoided retaliating to the blog comment then I could see the outrage. Since all of that happened, Avilo is at least as much to "blame" as anyone on the show.
EPT
