On June 21 2012 00:50 iNcontroL wrote: Didn't say T players can't speak to balance.. I said the whining is hilarious because they literally had won more money, games and tourneys than any other race for the complete duration off SC2 minus LITERALLY 2 months.
I think this is the main point that everyone should realise. Terran has been always succesfull in SC2 and now for the first time they have problems...maybe time to wait just a bit more than jump on to conclusions? Of course state of the game viewers would be more than happy to see top level terran player speaking about the balance in the show...
On June 21 2012 01:02 IdrA wrote: hey you can have 20 iq and play terran competitively so theres a much lower percentage of terran players capable of putting words together coherently, this makes them less adept at talk shows. thats why theres not a lot of terrans on here or itg. shut the fuck up.
lolol
this is funny. well played.
jokes aside, didn't you play terran competitively in brood war?
the race changed a lot between the two. BW Terran was a macro oriented race similar to SC2 Zerg. SC2 terran is marine and friends (I play both races in both games and it literally feels like they swapped the playstyle of both races).
So how is TvZ played in BW? Marines tanks medics and science vessels a lot, no ?
Zerg was all about taking many bases and overrunning the opponent with more shit than him.
I don't see your point.
I know idrA is trolling to some extent, but it is hilarious that he found terran to be the weakest race in Brood War and Zerg the weakest in SC2. He said this really early and if he truly believed that he would have switched races. Terran has won the most tournaments in BW too ...
On June 21 2012 00:50 iNcontroL wrote: Didn't say T players can't speak to balance.. I said the whining is hilarious because they literally had won more money, games and tourneys than any other race for the complete duration off SC2 minus LITERALLY 2 months.
I think this is the main point that everyone should realise. Terran has been always succesfull in SC2 and now for the first time they have problems...maybe time to wait just a bit more than jump on to conclusions? Of course state of the game viewers would be more than happy to see top level terran player speaking about the balance in the show...
I think it's kind of a weak point tbh.. Is the goal for the game balance to give every race a few months of doing good like in WoW?
Artosis' comment about the influence of tournaments on metagame progress was something that I had been thinking for quite a while. I am glad that a prominent figure in the scene has made that point, but I doubt that there is something to do in the current state of the scene, given its payout structure.
On June 21 2012 00:50 iNcontroL wrote: Didn't say T players can't speak to balance.. I said the whining is hilarious because they literally had won more money, games and tourneys than any other race for the complete duration off SC2 minus LITERALLY 2 months.
I think this is the main point that everyone should realise. Terran has been always succesfull in SC2 and now for the first time they have problems...maybe time to wait just a bit more than jump on to conclusions? Of course state of the game viewers would be more than happy to see top level terran player speaking about the balance in the show...
I'm a Protoss player and I think this is a terrible line of argument. If there's a problem with a matchup, there's a problem with a matchup. It's got nothing to do with "wait-and-see" when nobody has a clue what to do. There is no point in the history of this game in which people made revolutionary changes just by "waiting-and-seeing" in the face of a catastrophic Blizzard buff. What happened when Blizzard nerfed the Ghost? Terrans stopped going into the lategame and tried to put more pressure early. What happened when 4gate was nerfed in PvP? People stopped 4gating. The problem is that virtually every TvZ opener has been nerfed aside from pure greed like 3OC. That's just ad for the matchup. No matchup should be free macro up to 10 minutes and 80 Drones without any threat of pressure whatsoever. This spirals out of control in the case of Zerg due to the nature of Queens doubling as defense/macro/Creep Spread and the fact that Creep Spread serves an offensive, defense, and scouting role.
It's like when every MC all-in got nerfed. Eventually, players just can't figure out any more timings and are forced to play macro games, which is why the most common PvZ all-in is the Immortal/Sentry and why everything else is basically fast third into whatever. You can still 7gate or 6gate, sure, but it's a lot weaker than it used to be, so people do different things instead. This isn't bad on its own, except over time, as more and more things get nerfed, people run out of options. What would we do if Immortal/Sentry got nerfed into non-viability? What other tech tree do we have to leap to? There used to be an abundance of viable all-ins. Now there are around 3 for PvZ. In TvZ, we're at a point where the only real opening seems to be to out-greed a Zerg. How, exactly, is any of that good for the game?
On June 21 2012 01:02 IdrA wrote: hey you can have 20 iq and play terran competitively so theres a much lower percentage of terran players capable of putting words together coherently, this makes them less adept at talk shows. thats why theres not a lot of terrans on here or itg. shut the fuck up.
lolol
this is funny. well played.
jokes aside, didn't you play terran competitively in brood war?
the race changed a lot between the two. BW Terran was a macro oriented race similar to SC2 Zerg. SC2 terran is marine and friends (I play both races in both games and it literally feels like they swapped the playstyle of both races).
So how is TvZ played in BW? Marines tanks medics and science vessels a lot, no ?
Zerg was all about taking many bases and overrunning the opponent with more shit than him.
I don't see your point.
I know idrA is trolling to some extent, but it is hilarious that he found terran to be the weakest race in Brood War and Zerg the weakest in SC2. He said this really early and if he truly believed that he would have switched races. Terran has won the most tournaments in BW too ...
Terran was CC first into SK terran lategame and yes zerg wanted to get a hatch for every 5 drones that they had because that was also their production facility. Zerg was the aggressive race which overrun the opponent. In SC2 zerg is the defensive race that eventually overruns you and Terran is the offensive race that eventually picks you apart.
I haven't heard him say that terran was the weakest race in BW (at least in any serious manner) and if he did I would call him on that lol. SC2 Zerg was the weakest race for a long time and is poorly designed (which he has said numerous times). Actually all 3 races have some measure of poor design.
On June 21 2012 00:50 iNcontroL wrote: Didn't say T players can't speak to balance.. I said the whining is hilarious because they literally had won more money, games and tourneys than any other race for the complete duration off SC2 minus LITERALLY 2 months.
I think this is the main point that everyone should realise. Terran has been always succesfull in SC2 and now for the first time they have problems...maybe time to wait just a bit more than jump on to conclusions? Of course state of the game viewers would be more than happy to see top level terran player speaking about the balance in the show...
I'm a Protoss player and I think this is a terrible line of argument. If there's a problem with a matchup, there's a problem with a matchup. It's got nothing to do with "wait-and-see" when nobody has a clue what to do. There is no point in the history of this game in which people made revolutionary changes just by "waiting-and-seeing" in the face of a catastrophic Blizzard buff. What happened when Blizzard nerfed the Ghost? Terrans stopped going into the lategame and tried to put more pressure early. What happened when 4gate was nerfed in PvP? People stopped 4gating. The problem is that virtually every TvZ opener has been nerfed aside from pure greed like 3OC. That's just ad for the matchup. No matchup should be free macro up to 10 minutes and 80 Drones without any threat of pressure whatsoever. This spirals out of control in the case of Zerg due to the nature of Queens doubling as defense/macro/Creep Spread and the fact that Creep Spread serves an offensive, defense, and scouting role.
It's like when every MC all-in got nerfed. Eventually, players just can't figure out any more timings and are forced to play macro games, which is why the most common PvZ all-in is the Immortal/Sentry and why everything else is basically fast third into whatever. You can still 7gate or 6gate, sure, but it's a lot weaker than it used to be, so people do different things instead. This isn't bad on its own, except over time, as more and more things get nerfed, people run out of options. What would we do if Immortal/Sentry got nerfed into non-viability? What other tech tree do we have to leap to? There used to be an abundance of viable all-ins. Now there are around 3 for PvZ. In TvZ, we're at a point where the only real opening seems to be to out-greed a Zerg. How, exactly, is any of that good for the game?
Agreed. If Blizzard in their infinite wisdom decides to buff the marine to +10 damage while having +10 range the matchup would be utterly destroyed, and no one would be saying "wait and see." This stupid exaggeration of mine is to make a point that Blizzard aren't faultless and can screw up badly as they have demonstrated before in other games, and now in SC2 since the queen change was a screwup on an equal scale in the stupidity-factor for how much it would end up changing a well balanced matchup.
TSL2 was a looooong time ago. His 12th place finish or whatever it was at WCS @Anaheim was basically the best result he has had in SC2 in about 2 years. Just watch his stream - he's basically struggling in mid-masters at this point. His opinion isn't any more valid than Avilo's. Incontrol? He's basically completely fallen off the radar as a pro at this point and I don't think he has even qualified for WCS - why is his opinion viewed as more important than Avilo's? It's because he's a co-host on SOTG and nothing else. If the qualification for being on the show was being "competent" Nony and Incontrol should've been rotated out in favor of people like Insur or RangeD. Obviously, competency isn't a qualification.
Why wouldn't you want Artosis and Day[9], who have accomplished less than me in BW and are worse than me at SC2, kicked off the show?
Whoa whoa whoa there. Day[9] has all three races in grandmasters and you are clearly struggling at mid masters.
You know what... it all makes sense now. Sean no longer appears on the show because the King has such a higher understanding than the likes of Idra/You/Geoff and could no longer stand the terrible biased balance discussion going on. You're welcome internet. I solved the mystery of why Day[9] left SotG.
On June 21 2012 00:50 iNcontroL wrote: Didn't say T players can't speak to balance.. I said the whining is hilarious because they literally had won more money, games and tourneys than any other race for the complete duration off SC2 minus LITERALLY 2 months.
I don't think you should say things like "literally" just for emphasis. If you are going to, you're gonna want to make sure what you said is 100% true, and I very much doubt you've checked.
Addressing what you've said; I disagree with using past balance as a basis for disallowing comments on current balance. If that was acceptable, we would have just told Z users to stfu and go back to 1 food roach all-inning. Instead, we listened to their (valid) concerns and, as a result, overall balance is in a better place than it was.
On June 21 2012 01:02 IdrA wrote: hey you can have 20 iq and play terran competitively so theres a much lower percentage of terran players capable of putting words together coherently, this makes them less adept at talk shows. thats why theres not a lot of terrans on here or itg. shut the fuck up.
lolol
this is funny. well played.
jokes aside, didn't you play terran competitively in brood war?
the race changed a lot between the two. BW Terran was a macro oriented race similar to SC2 Zerg. SC2 terran is marine and friends (I play both races in both games and it literally feels like they swapped the playstyle of both races).
So how is TvZ played in BW? Marines tanks medics and science vessels a lot, no ?
Zerg was all about taking many bases and overrunning the opponent with more shit than him.
I don't see your point.
I know idrA is trolling to some extent, but it is hilarious that he found terran to be the weakest race in Brood War and Zerg the weakest in SC2. He said this really early and if he truly believed that he would have switched races. Terran has won the most tournaments in BW too ...
Terran was CC first into SK terran lategame and yes zerg wanted to get a hatch for every 5 drones that they had because that was also their production facility. Zerg was the aggressive race which overrun the opponent. In SC2 zerg is the defensive race that eventually overruns you and Terran is the offensive race that eventually picks you apart.
I haven't heard him say that terran was the weakest race in BW (at least in any serious manner) and if he did I would call him on that lol. SC2 Zerg was the weakest race for a long time and is poorly designed (which he has said numerous times). Actually all 3 races have some measure of poor design.
He did say that being completely serious on a Sotg episode and the others trolled him for it.
I don't buy in to your BW - Sc2 comparisons. I find them overly simplified. CC first is a risky opener in both games, but ironically it has started to become very popular in Sc2
With mutas, roaches, mass ling infestor and banelings I think Zerg has many very aggressive options. Recently these insanely aggressive timing attacks have become popular because of builds like cc first and 3 OC.
Of course state of the game viewers would be more than happy to see top level terran player speaking about the balance in the show...
They said they tried to get a Terran, but couldn't. Wtf do you want them to do?
This. There seems to be an impression that QXC/Select/all the best terrans are sending in their resumes but they keep getting recycled by inControl. First of all, this is not a nightly news show with high production values or any organized plan of attack. It's a bunch of friends who've all known each other for a long time and talk largely at random about themselves and their memories along with recent news. Even if this was a nightly news show, since when were those ever impartial or unbiased? Second, they have no obligation to let anybody on the show if they are being obnoxious (i.e. avilo) or they otherwise don't feel like talking to them.
Finally, of course they talk about Brood War a lot whether you like it or not because they have far more BW memories than SC2 memories and that's how they all met. Same goes for the USA-centric talk. Duh, they are all Americans and talk about what they know. Complaints in the last day would be valid if this was some sort of news show that held itself out as being impartial. But it's a bunch of dudes who get together when they have time and basically shoot the shit...
I can't stress enough how dumb I think it is to get challenged to a match, and then just change the terms, so that if you lose you have an excuse and if you win it proves your point. iNcontroL, as always, appears to be much smarter than the vast majority on these forums.
I still don't understand all the random forum denizens coming into this thread and informing pro players that they "just aren't that good" or "can't speak to balance" of a race they don't play.
Do these people, who ladder for maybe a few hours a day and watch some vods when they get the chance, really think they can hold a candle to professionals? Do they really think that people whose livelihoods depend on their knowledge and skill at the game don't spend hours a day gathering knowledge on every corner of the game?
I don't care if you think it's elitist or arrogant or whatever. The fact is that the pros are qualified to talk and their opinions do matter because they are pros.
On June 21 2012 01:43 Canucklehead wrote: The best person to get on the show would be morrow, since he plays zvt and tvz.
I agree, he would also have the least bias of the international Terrans who can articulate themselves properly. Don't wanna hate on Demuslim but his bias when it comes to TvP for example is off the charts. Then again you have the EU timezone to consider, and whether he'd want to get involved in such a volatile subject anyway.
On June 21 2012 01:51 Vega62a wrote: I still don't understand all the random forum denizens coming into this thread and informing pro players that they "just aren't that good" or "can't speak to balance" of a race they don't play.
Do these people, who ladder for maybe a few hours a day and watch some vods when they get the chance, really think they can hold a candle to professionals? Do they really think that people whose livelihoods depend on their knowledge and skill at the game don't spend hours a day gathering knowledge on every corner of the game?
I don't care if you think it's elitist or arrogant or whatever. The fact is that the pros are qualified to talk and their opinions do matter because they are pros.
Not to burst your bubble, but Incontrol, Idra and Nony are among the 'pros' who are least dependent on actually being good at the game to keep their careers going. They get by on other merits entirely.
TSL2 was a looooong time ago. His 12th place finish or whatever it was at WCS @Anaheim was basically the best result he has had in SC2 in about 2 years. Just watch his stream - he's basically struggling in mid-masters at this point. His opinion isn't any more valid than Avilo's. Incontrol? He's basically completely fallen off the radar as a pro at this point and I don't think he has even qualified for WCS - why is his opinion viewed as more important than Avilo's? It's because he's a co-host on SOTG and nothing else. If the qualification for being on the show was being "competent" Nony and Incontrol should've been rotated out in favor of people like Insur or RangeD. Obviously, competency isn't a qualification.
Why wouldn't you want Artosis and Day[9], who have accomplished less than me in BW and are worse than me at SC2, kicked off the show?
Whoa whoa whoa there. Day[9] has all three races in grandmasters and you are clearly struggling at mid masters.
You know what... it all makes sense now. Sean no longer appears on the show because the King has such a higher understanding than the likes of Idra/You/Geoff and could no longer stand the terrible biased balance discussion going on. You're welcome internet. I solved the mystery of why Day[9] left SotG.
Day9 does not play 1v1 in sc2 whatsoever. Good job solving the mystery.
He doesn't even remotely have time to play 1v1 with the amount of work he does on weekly basis.
EPT
